Game of Thrones - Show and Book Discussion. (EPIC SPOILERS)

[GivenToFly]

Who sent the dagger/assasain to kill Bran?

Theories?

I thought it was proven to be Joffrey? Am I remembering this wrong?

[SunnyDRE]

Who sent the dagger/assasain to kill Bran?

Theories?

I thought it was proven to be Joffrey? Am I remembering this wrong?

Don't think it was 100% proven, but yeah that seems to be the consensus. Evidence seems weak though.

Saw a cool Mance Raydar theory. Will post if you guys want.

[SunnyDRE]

Mance Rayder theory:

The idea Joffrey sent the catspaw is circumstantial.

It deduced from Tyrion's POV chapter at the Purple Wedding, and Jaime's POV chapter talking to Cersei at the end of Storm of Swords. They figure all figure it must have been Joffrey, so we do, too. It came more from a lack of any other suspect to consider.

My friend and I once had a long debate about it, where he still refused to believe Joffrey had done it, but he was admittedly at a loss as to who else it could have been. One of his points were: why would Joffrey have talked to a dirty wretch of a catspaw like that at Winterfell, where many people would surely have seen? Joffrey is pretty heartless, but is he smart enough to plan out a hit like this? He has never struck me as intelligent.

It is a near impossibility for Littlefinger to have arranged it

...or want to, as he surely would have taken steps to keep Catelyn out of danger. Nor could I imagine him wanting to kill one of her children.

Also consider: How would Littlefinger communicate with a petty catspaw? Raven? (Impossible: How could a raven be trained to fly to a catspaw pussyfooting around and living in the stables, and moreover how could the catspaw read the message?)

With Bran as the target for the catspaw, this means the catspaw must have received the mission pretty quickly after Bran's fall (before Robert's caravan even left for King's Landing).

Now let's get to the actual text...

After the attempt on Bran's life:

“He’d been hiding in your stables,” Greyjoy said. “You could smell it on him.”

“And how could he go unnoticed?” she said sharply.

Hallis Mollen looked abashed. “Between the horses Lord Eddard took south and them we sent north to the Night’s Watch, the stalls were half-empty. It were no great trick to hide from the stableboys. Could be Hodor saw him, the talk is that boy’s been acting queer, but simple as he is…” Hal shook his head.

“We found where he’d been sleeping,” Robb put in.

“He had ninety silver stags in a leather bag buried beneath the straw.”

“It’s good to know my son’s life was not sold cheaply,” Catelyn said bitterly.

^{- A Game of Thrones, Catelyn III}

90 silver stags is cheap for a King's son or the Master of Coin.

Why would Joffrey, Prince, son of King Robert who loved expensive gold everything, pay the catspaw in silver? Why would the Master of Coin, who can make gold appear from thin air, pay the catspaw in silver (Baelish, however, its much more shrewd and would obviously have done it to throw himself off the trail).

Lannisters are all about gold. Why, then, would Joffrey pay in a bag of silver? And where would he have gotten a bag of silver without someone thinking it odd?

Catelyn to a captive Jaime:

And when he did not, you knew your danger was worse than ever, so

you gave your catspaw a bag of silver

to make certain Bran would never wake.

^{- A Clash of Kings, Catelyn VII}

Mance to Jon about coming to Winterfell in ASOS:

“When your father learned the king was coming, he sent word to his brother Benjen on the Wall, so he might come down for the feast.

There is more commerce between the black brothers and the free folk than you know, and soon enough word came to my ears as well.

It was too choice a chance to resist. Your uncle did not know me by sight, so I had no fear from that quarter, and I did not think your father was like to remember a young crow he’d met briefly years before. I wanted to see this Robert with my own eyes, king to king, and get the measure of your uncle Benjen as well. He was First Ranger by then, and the bane of all my people. So I saddled my fleetest horse, and rode.”

“But,” Jon objected, “the Wall …”

“The Wall can stop an army, but not a man alone.

I took a lute and a bag of silver

, scaled the ice near Long Barrow, walked a few leagues south of the New Gift, and bought a horse. All in all I made much better time than Robert, who was traveling with a ponderous great wheelhouse to keep his queen in comfort. A day south of Winterfell I came up on him and fell in with his company. Freeriders and hedge knights are always attaching themselves to royal processions, in hopes of finding service with the king, and

my lute gained me easy acceptance

. He laughed. “I know every bawdy song that’s ever been made, north or south of the Wall. So there you are. The night your father feasted Robert, I sat in the back of his hall on a bench with the other freeriders, listening to Orland of Oldtown play the high harp and sing of dead kings beneath the sea. I betook of your lord father’s meat and mead, had a look at Kingslayer and Imp…

and made passing note of Lord Eddard’s children and the wolf pups that ran at their heels.

”

^{- A Storm of Swords, Jon I}

"I will tell you that ASOS will resolve the question of Bran and the dagger, and also that of Jon Arryn's killer. Some other questions will =not= be resolved... and hopefully I will give you a few new puzzles to worry at." -GRRM

Mance tells Jon he brought a lute and a bag of silver. A bag of silver was found where the catspaw had been staying.

(edit: new point)

Then there's that last bit at the end:

"... made passing note of Lord Eddard’s children and the wolf pups that ran at their heels.”

(edit: new point)

This how Tyrion links the dagger to Joffrey:

“I remember.” Joffrey brought Widow’s Wail down in a savage twohanded slice, onto the book that Tyrion had given him. The heavy leather cover parted at a stroke. “Sharp! I told you,

I am no stranger to Valyrian steel

.” It took him half a dozen further cuts to hack the thick tome apart, and the boy was breathless by the time he was done.

... Tyrion was staring at his nephew with his mismatched eyes. “Perhaps a knife, sire. To match your sword. A dagger of the same fine Valyrian steel… with a dragonbone hilt, say?”

Joff gave him a sharp look

. “You… yes, a dagger to match my sword, good.” He nodded. “A… a gold hilt with rubies in it.

Dragonbone is too plain

.”

“As you wish, Your Grace.”

(- A Storm of Swords, *Sansa IV)

“Tyrion shifted his weight uncomfortably from one foot to the other. He could not stand still.

Too much wine.

...

He ought to have seen it

long ago. Jaime would never send another man to do his killing, and Cersei was too cunning to use a knife that could be traced back to her, but Joff,

arrogant vicious stupid little wretch

that he was…

... Robert Baratheon was a man of careless generosity, and would have given his son any dagger he wanted… but

Tyrion guessed

that the boy had just taken it. Robert had come to Winterfell with a long tail of knights and retainers, a huge wheelhouse, and a baggage train.

No doubt

some diligent servant had made certain that the king’s weapons went with him, in case he should desire any of them.

... The why of

it still eluded him

.

Simple cruelty, perhaps?

His nephew had that in abundance.

^{- A Storm of Swords, Tyrion VIII}

Keep in mind that through all of this Tyrion is really drunk. I don't understand how he is being relied upon as a narrator.

& notice phrases like "he should have seen it", "Tyrion guessed", "no doubt", "it still eluded him"

Tyrion even goes as far to say that Robert would have forgotten about the knife. And if its taken by a diligent servant in the baggage train, there wouldn't be much security on it and it wouldn't have been so difficult for a much loved musician to get close to throughout two weeks at Winterfell.

(edit: new point)

Why did Joffrey never mention it to Robert?

According to Jaime's POV chapter at the end of A Storm of Swords:

“Yes, I hoped the boy would die. So did you. Even

Robert

thought that would have been for the best. ‘We kill our horses when they break a leg, and our dogs when they go blind, but we are too weak to give the same mercy to crippled children,’ he told me. He was blind himself at the time, from drink.”

Robert?

Jaime had guarded the king long enough to know that Robert Baratheon said things in his cups that he would have denied angrily the next day. “Were you alone when Robert said this?”

“You don’t think he said it to Ned Stark, I hope? Of course we were alone. Us and the children.” Cersei removed her hairnet and draped it over a bedpost, then shook out her golden curls. “Perhaps Myrcella sent this man with the dagger, do you think so?”

“Not Myrcella. Joffrey.”

Cersei frowned. “Joffrey had no love for Robb Stark, but the younger boy was nothing to him. He was only a child himself.”

“A child hungry for a pat on the head from that sot you let him believe was his father.”

^{- A Storm of Swords, Jaime IX}

If Joffrey was so hungry for a pat on the head from his father, and that's why he did it:

1. Why not have it done while Robert is there to see it done?Two weeks passed between Bran's fall and everyone leaving for the Wall and King's Landing, and another eight days until the assassination attempt.

2. Albeit he has no way to know the outcome, no one finds out until the caravan arrives in King's Landing almost two monthafter it happened. In that time, why wouldn't Joffrey have bragged to his father about ordering the hit on Bran?Especially if he's "hungry for a pat on the head" and is already known to be kinda psycho vis-a-vis him cutting open a pregnant cat, along with him hearing his father say Bran should be put down like a sick dog. Joffrey would have been showing Robert his strength, according to his fathers own words.

But why would Mance do it?

Mance must have come south of the Wall with some sort of plan. Withalmost all the main players in the Game of Thrones in one place, and the inevitability of sellswords, free riders, and other cretin attaching themselves to the retinue, a bag of silver is all he would have needed to ensure he could make some sort of hit on someone at Winterfell.

Chances are he hung around for quite a while before heading back north of the Wall.

• Almost three weeks elapsed between Robert's arrival and Bran's fall. Even though they were set to leave the next day,Bran's fall forces King Robert and his caravan to stay another two weeks. This gives Mance a month or more to plan and execute some foulery.

Any which way, he's no friend to Westeros. His motive is simple: destabilize the kingdom. Sow discord between the families. Distract everyone from the Wall. I haven't done enough rereading of Mance's part in the novel to see if there are any other clues - perhaps there are some.

However, these passages above had me pretty convinced.

Why would we assume Mance's intentions going all the way to Winterfell were innocent and pure?

He's planning a fucking ASSAULT on the Wall and the Seven Kingdoms. All the turmoil caused by the attempt on Bran's life set in motion a chain of events that led to everyone ignoring the Black Brother's alarm of an impending wildling attack. War between the families in Westeros was a perfect distraction. If it wasn't for Davos learning to read, finding that scrap of paper, and reading it to Stannis, is plan would have worked perfectly.

Don't think he would have tried to kill the son of the Lord of Winterfell? Well, would the boy have been spared if the wildlings crossed the Wall?

Westerosi citizens are the enemies of the wildlings, especially a Winterfell lord, given the Stark support for the Wall and long history of fighting and killing wildlings.

Of course he's not going to tell Jon anything about what he did or his intentions.

Imagine how Jon would have reacted.

/u/ShopeIV:

Mance strikes me as the Jaime type. He leads his forces in battle and if he wants something done right he does it himself.

I'd say going all the way to Winterfell by himself is, in fact, doing it himself.

"But Guest Right!"

From the woiaf.westeros.org entry on Guest Right:

"The guest right is a sacred law of hospitality. When a guest, be he common born or noble, eats the food and drinks the drink off a host's table beneath the host's roof, the guest right is invoked. Bread and salt are the traditional provisions.

When invoked, neither the guest can harm his host nor the host harm his guest

for the length of the guest's stay.

"

• If Mance left long before the assassination attempt, it would have released him from the responsibility to uphold guest right and the probability of the curse that comes with breaking it.

Another bit about Guest Right from the wiki:

"It is sometimes customary for a host to give "guest gifts" to the departing guests when they leave the host's dwellings;

this usually represents the end of the sacred guest right.

"

• If anything happened like this over the course of the three weeksbetween the feast and Bran's assassination, then he would have been released from guest right.

Mance could have waited for everyone to leave Winterfell to ensure he was not breaking Guest Right.

TL;DR : You only like Mance because he wants Jon to like him. Mance mentions all he took to Winterfell was a lute and a bag of silver. The lute earned him trust, the silver bought the catspaw - the assassin was found to have a back of silver in his possession.

The assassination attempt never had to succeed in order to achieve the effect Mance was striving for.

The only reason why you think Joffrey did it is because he's a violent psychopath and Jaime, Cersei, and a very drunk Tyrion deduced it for lack of a better suspect. They never met Mance or knew anything of his intentions.

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1uvltu/spoilers_all_who_really_sent_the_catspaw/

[OmarBradley]

Who sent the dagger/assasain to kill Bran?

Theories?

I thought it was proven to be Joffrey? Am I remembering this wrong?

Don't think it was 100% proven, but yeah that seems to be the consensus. Evidence seems weak though.

Saw a cool Mance Raydar theory. Will post if you guys want.

I know I'm not supposed to be in this thread , but I thought it was assumed that it was at least one of the Lannister's, or one of their henchmen? Who else would want Bran killed right after he catches Cersei and Jaimie, it seems a bit coincidental that Mance would have ordered an assassination right after that.... especially considering that Rob was next in line to become King in the North, not Bran. Though I haven't read the books, nor did I read your "Spoiler" tag in your next post.

Edited April 24, 2014 by OmarBradley

[bran]

Who sent the dagger/assasain to kill Bran?

Theories?

I thought it was proven to be Joffrey? Am I remembering this wrong?

Don't think it was 100% proven, but yeah that seems to be the consensus. Evidence seems weak though.

Saw a cool Mance Raydar theory. Will post if you guys want.

I know I'm not supposed to be in this thread , but I thought it was assumed that it was at least one of the Lannister's, or one of their henchmen? Who else would want Bran killed right after he catches Cersei and Jaimie, it seems a bit coincidental that Mance would have ordered an assassination right after that.... especially considering that Rob was next in line to become King in the North, not Bran. Though I haven't read the books, nor did I read your "Spoiler" tag in your next post.

i think it was joffery. basically in the book you learn that robert baratheon said during breakfast the day after bran's fall that someone should put him out of his misery since living his life like that is no life to live and it would be a mercy if someone killed him. you learn that joffery always did things to try and please his father(if i remember right joffery cut some kittens out of a mother cat) so joffery took the blade from robert's chest and hired an assassin(or anyone poor enough to do things for cash) among the people coming into winterfell with the kings arrival to kill bran to please his father. this is why when joffery received his sword in the book he said he was no stranger to valaryian steel even though the lannisters lost their valaryian steel long ago and joffery only being 14 or 15.

[OmarBradley]

Who sent the dagger/assasain to kill Bran?

Theories?

I thought it was proven to be Joffrey? Am I remembering this wrong?

Don't think it was 100% proven, but yeah that seems to be the consensus. Evidence seems weak though.

Saw a cool Mance Raydar theory. Will post if you guys want.

I know I'm not supposed to be in this thread , but I thought it was assumed that it was at least one of the Lannister's, or one of their henchmen? Who else would want Bran killed right after he catches Cersei and Jaimie, it seems a bit coincidental that Mance would have ordered an assassination right after that.... especially considering that Rob was next in line to become King in the North, not Bran. Though I haven't read the books, nor did I read your "Spoiler" tag in your next post.

i think it was joffery. basically in the book you learn that robert baratheon said during breakfast the day after bran's fall that someone should put him out of his misery since living his life like that is no life to live and it would be a mercy if someone killed him. you learn that joffery always did things to try and please his father(if i remember right joffery cut some kittens out of a mother cat) so joffery took the blade from robert's chest and hired an assassin(or anyone poor enough to do things for cash) among the people coming into winterfell with the kings arrival to kill bran to please his father. this is why when joffery received his sword in the book he said he was no stranger to valaryian steel even though the lannisters lost their valaryian steel long ago and joffery only being 14 or 15.

Okay that makes sense. The only point I'd raise is that in the show, the knife was purported to be Tyrion's, but I'm guessing that was just changed (from Robert) to fit the narrative of the show?

[bran]

Who sent the dagger/assasain to kill Bran?

Theories?

I thought it was proven to be Joffrey? Am I remembering this wrong?

Don't think it was 100% proven, but yeah that seems to be the consensus. Evidence seems weak though.

Saw a cool Mance Raydar theory. Will post if you guys want.

I know I'm not supposed to be in this thread , but I thought it was assumed that it was at least one of the Lannister's, or one of their henchmen? Who else would want Bran killed right after he catches Cersei and Jaimie, it seems a bit coincidental that Mance would have ordered an assassination right after that.... especially considering that Rob was next in line to become King in the North, not Bran. Though I haven't read the books, nor did I read your "Spoiler" tag in your next post.

i think it was joffery. basically in the book you learn that robert baratheon said during breakfast the day after bran's fall that someone should put him out of his misery since living his life like that is no life to live and it would be a mercy if someone killed him. you learn that joffery always did things to try and please his father(if i remember right joffery cut some kittens out of a mother cat) so joffery took the blade from robert's chest and hired an assassin(or anyone poor enough to do things for cash) among the people coming into winterfell with the kings arrival to kill bran to please his father. this is why when joffery received his sword in the book he said he was no stranger to valaryian steel even though the lannisters lost their valaryian steel long ago and joffery only being 14 or 15.

Okay that makes sense. The only point I'd raise is that in the show, the knife was purported to be Tyrion's, but I'm guessing that was just changed (from Robert) to fit the narrative of the show?

yeah in the books tyrion and littlefinger both bet jaime would beat ser loras in the jousting championship. robert bets on loras. loras unhorses jaime in the finale so robert won the bet and won littlefingers dagger, tyrion only bet some gold dragons if i remember right.

Edited April 24, 2014 by bran

[SunnyDRE]

Who sent the dagger/assasain to kill Bran?

Theories?

I thought it was proven to be Joffrey? Am I remembering this wrong?

Don't think it was 100% proven, but yeah that seems to be the consensus. Evidence seems weak though.

Saw a cool Mance Raydar theory. Will post if you guys want.

I know I'm not supposed to be in this thread , but I thought it was assumed that it was at least one of the Lannister's, or one of their henchmen? Who else would want Bran killed right after he catches Cersei and Jaimie, it seems a bit coincidental that Mance would have ordered an assassination right after that.... especially considering that Rob was next in line to become King in the North, not Bran. Though I haven't read the books, nor did I read your "Spoiler" tag in your next post.

i think it was joffery. basically in the book you learn that robert baratheon said during breakfast the day after bran's fall that someone should put him out of his misery since living his life like that is no life to live and it would be a mercy if someone killed him. you learn that joffery always did things to try and please his father(if i remember right joffery cut some kittens out of a mother cat) so joffery took the blade from robert's chest and hired an assassin(or anyone poor enough to do things for cash) among the people coming into winterfell with the kings arrival to kill bran to please his father. this is why when joffery received his sword in the book he said he was no stranger to valaryian steel even though the lannisters lost their valaryian steel long ago and joffery only being 14 or 15.

I just don't see Joffery paying the assassin in silver though...gold lions. Mance Rayder on the other hand.

[bran]

Who sent the dagger/assasain to kill Bran?

Theories?

I thought it was proven to be Joffrey? Am I remembering this wrong?

Don't think it was 100% proven, but yeah that seems to be the consensus. Evidence seems weak though.

Saw a cool Mance Raydar theory. Will post if you guys want.

I know I'm not supposed to be in this thread , but I thought it was assumed that it was at least one of the Lannister's, or one of their henchmen? Who else would want Bran killed right after he catches Cersei and Jaimie, it seems a bit coincidental that Mance would have ordered an assassination right after that.... especially considering that Rob was next in line to become King in the North, not Bran. Though I haven't read the books, nor did I read your "Spoiler" tag in your next post.

i think it was joffery. basically in the book you learn that robert baratheon said during breakfast the day after bran's fall that someone should put him out of his misery since living his life like that is no life to live and it would be a mercy if someone killed him. you learn that joffery always did things to try and please his father(if i remember right joffery cut some kittens out of a mother cat) so joffery took the blade from robert's chest and hired an assassin(or anyone poor enough to do things for cash) among the people coming into winterfell with the kings arrival to kill bran to please his father. this is why when joffery received his sword in the book he said he was no stranger to valaryian steel even though the lannisters lost their valaryian steel long ago and joffery only being 14 or 15.

I just don't see Joffery paying the assassin in silver though...gold lions. Mance Rayder on the other hand.

yeah but who knows if he was really a trained assassin? if he was just a cut purse or some small time criminal low on money, killing a crippled kid in a coma in an unguarded room would look like a free payday and not something that would cost a lot of money. the mance theory is pretty cool though, it does make you wonder a bit.....

[GivenToFly]

Who sent the dagger/assasain to kill Bran?

Theories?

I thought it was proven to be Joffrey? Am I remembering this wrong?

Don't think it was 100% proven, but yeah that seems to be the consensus. Evidence seems weak though.

Saw a cool Mance Raydar theory. Will post if you guys want.

I know I'm not supposed to be in this thread , but I thought it was assumed that it was at least one of the Lannister's, or one of their henchmen? Who else would want Bran killed right after he catches Cersei and Jaimie, it seems a bit coincidental that Mance would have ordered an assassination right after that.... especially considering that Rob was next in line to become King in the North, not Bran. Though I haven't read the books, nor did I read your "Spoiler" tag in your next post.

i think it was joffery. basically in the book you learn that robert baratheon said during breakfast the day after bran's fall that someone should put him out of his misery since living his life like that is no life to live and it would be a mercy if someone killed him. you learn that joffery always did things to try and please his father(if i remember right joffery cut some kittens out of a mother cat) so joffery took the blade from robert's chest and hired an assassin(or anyone poor enough to do things for cash) among the people coming into winterfell with the kings arrival to kill bran to please his father. this is why when joffery received his sword in the book he said he was no stranger to valaryian steel even though the lannisters lost their valaryian steel long ago and joffery only being 14 or 15.

Okay that makes sense. The only point I'd raise is that in the show, the knife was purported to be Tyrion's, but I'm guessing that was just changed (from Robert) to fit the narrative of the show?

No, it was never Tyrion. Littlefinger was lying to sow discord between the Starks and the Lannisters.

[Georgy Zhukov]

Tyrion went as far as explaining "I would never bet against my own brother" but in the show he said "What sort of inbecil would arm an assassin with his own blade?"