One piece of evidence that supports the "label won't cooperate" theory

[SlashisGOD]

I listened to CD today for the first time in a while. While I don't think most of it is a bad album at all, there are some thoughts I have around it about why it didn't succeed as a GN'R album.

On the day of it's release, I drove an hour and a half to the nearest Best Buy to buy a copy. Little did I know that a record store about 40 minutes away from me had it, but I digress. I pop it in the car stereo and the first thing my girlfriend at the time said was "that doesn't sound like Axl." After all these years, I agree with her sentiment. Actually I think the best parts of the album are when Axl sounds like he did on UYI. Sorry bridge vocals (you got all the answers... nobody owes you... this could have come straight from 1991), Scraped (nothing's impossible...), etc. I think a lot of people probably thought the same thing. Now, that doesn't mean it doesn't sound like Guns, but in a way, it does. I don't expect him to sound like he did back then, but when the first thing that comes to mind is that it doesn't sound like him, you have trouble.

Second, the music is more like a metal band trying to write Guns N' Roses songs. I love heavy metal by the way. It just doesn't sound like a GN'R album. There are really only 4 or 5 songs that, had you not known any better, could have been written by Slash/Duff/Izzy, those being Street of Dreams, Catcher, This I Love, and maybe CD and I.R.S. The rest are just a mish mash of too many different things. If the World sounds like a James Bond theme, Shacklers is straight up industrial metal, and Madagascar is too synth heavy to be GN'R. It comes back to the point that had the Guns N' Roses name not been on the cover, people would probably think it was some new band that Axl joined. And no, Better does not sound like a Guns song to me.

Thirdly, the album was delayed way too long to really make the impact it could have produced. Had CD come out between 99-2002 it would have been much more successful. It would have made a bigger impact, no doubt about it. I think a lot of people would have bought it just to see what the new band sounded like, even if they didn't like GN'R. That was the best time, but as we know, that didn't happen.

By 2008, internet downloading was the norm and physical product sales were in the can. When it finally did come out, you had the "monumental promotion" which turned out to be a tiny little square box sitting off to the side instead of in front of the entrance where it sould have been. Axl did no promotion and the label didn't do much more. Plsu, people heard the songs and just thought they weren't what they expected of this mythical album. When you hear the name Guns N' Roses, you get a certain picture in your head and the album just did not provide what people imagined.

All my two cents. I guess Axl was dead on when he said "some people will say it doesn't sound like Axl Rose, it doesn't sound like Guns N' Roses, but there's at least a couple things you'll like."

Edited May 6, 2014 by SlashisGOD

[Nosaj Thing]

So, no evidence.

It's all Axl's fault.

[D-GenerationX]

I pop it in the car stereo and the first thing my girlfriend at the time said was "that doesn't sound like Axl." After all these years, I agree with her sentiment. Actually I think the best parts of the album are when Axl sounds like he did on UYI. Sorry bridge vocals (you got all the answers... nobody owes you... this could have come straight from 1991), Scraped (nothing's impossible...), etc. I think a lot of people probably thought the same thing. Now, that doesn't mean it doesn't sound like Guns, but in a way, it does. I don't expect him to sound like he did back then, but when the first thing that comes to mind is that it doesn't sound like him, you have trouble.

My father said the same thing. Didn't sound like Axl.

He also could not believe how low the vocals are in some of the mixes, like on 'Catcher' & 'I.R.S.' He figured if the singer is the one with all the clout making all the calls, the vocals would be prominent.

He thought 'Better' was the only time Axl sounded like Axl. However, I agree the bridge vocals in 'Sorry' are as close to prime Axl vocals as that album gets.

[wasted]

SOD seemed like the final destination of where UYI was going in terms of songs where every note had to be held just right. maybe the whole album is a bit like that.

I think it sounds like Axl on the majority of the CD tracks. Prostitute is like the resolution of the old band or why Axl has to follow his artistic muse.

Is there a part 2 - Axl said he saw it as a double? To the label the BB deal was the end game, you could give them 8 albums but they just wanted the money and to close down the band and do a Reunion, which is what Azzoff tried to do, but Axl wouldn't.

Jackie Chan, Goin' Down, Beta's Barn, Quick Song, Soul Monster, Thyme, Atlas Shrugged - Oh My God, Silkworms, The General, Zodiac, Seven, Down by the Ocean, Ides of March - CD II?

[dalsh327]

So UMG had no "great ambitions" for the first Guns n Roses album of original material in 17 years?

And Interscope "may be difficult about" the actual merit of a GnR album. What do you mean by that? Don't all labels want to release albums that are going to sell as many copies as possible? You are implying that Axl could turn in the next Appetite but Interscope would be difficult about accepting and releasing it?

Not when they heard the material, no. I honestly feel, and this isn't necessarily speculation if you consider the different statements we've gotten, that they didn't believe in the material. They threw milions of dollars at Axl to get the record sounding a certain way, but it never really changed to the point where they could say 'OK, this is why we consider GNR an A-client'. They were after a typically GNR record, and they didn't get it. Sure they gave it promotion, but they definitely didn't make it a marketing priority. At a time, UMG planned to make Chinese Democracy a landmark event. But as time went on, and Axl continued to pursue the record he wanted, they grew disinterested. It was just a matter of getting it out.

My point is that GNR no longer have a 14-year hype factor to release a record on. We're post-Chinese Democracy. Lots and lots of people believed that Axl could continue the glory of UYI, but their mentality changed conpletely when Chinese Democracy dropped. GNR now have a much more specific following.

I just think going back to Trent Reznor's criticisms of Interscope and other artists on that label, that you can see the same thing going on with Axl.

I also look at Axl having the attitude of "I got a few million off of AFD while Geffen Records made over 100 million dollars, so I'll finish the album when I'm damn good and ready". The problem is that when he was putting everything together with the new lineup, Interscope took it all over, fired a bunch of people, and it was as if GNR was only worth money in the back catalog to them.

So when Axl sued over the Greatest Hits, it didn't exactly encourage Interscope to work with him if he was being a dick about the hits album. It's one of their best selling albums, but it takes away from back catalog sales of UYI and AFD.

The dragging ass that went on from 2002-2008 and not having a cohesive lineup didn't help. In the end, the leaks and Dr Pepper were the only reason why people even knew it was out there. By the time 2008 came around, people were buying downloads and no longer buying CDs. I don't buy the piracy killing ChiDem argument, you could hear it as much as you wanted on MySpace. People like things at their convenience, and streaming it was more convenient than going to a store that might not be in their neighborhood.

If/when there's new music, we know it'll be out as a digital download, so that should be interesting to see how it does.

There's a difference between Interscope's promotion and Universal worldwide, and Axl had made mention of that. Maybe he should just promote where the band's more in demand outside of America and not worry about US charts anymore.

[wasted]

With sales so low anyway I guess it's almost a moot point. Putting an album out is almost a futile enterprise. It's just for artistic expression, the labels make the most money out of it, and even that's not that much. So I can see why the red carpet isn't rolled out anymore. Still 3 mil worldwide isn't bad in the current climate.

I think UMG/Interscope gave Axl an ultimatum in 2004, hand over CD or they release the GH? Of course Axl didn't, Bucket quit. I don't understand the thinking behind with not going with a release in 04. Maybe it was just bombsville, with the band less than harmonious. But surely there would be some positives to having Bucket and Finck in the band on the release?

Maybe it's just like it is now, Axl wants video/promo money. I really think that is the only way to showcase certain songs. There was a Time seems to be the most popular song on the CD and it's rarely played live and never got much exposure on release. With a big ass video, however cheesy, it could really help push the album. If you have big videos for Better, TWAT and TIL it's bound to give the band some exposure and presence.

[Estranged Coma]

With sales so low anyway I guess it's almost a moot point. Putting an album out is almost a futile enterprise. It's just for artistic expression, the labels make the most money out of it, and even that's not that much. So I can see why the red carpet isn't rolled out anymore. Still 3 mil worldwide isn't bad in the current climate.

I think UMG/Interscope gave Axl an ultimatum in 2004, hand over CD or they release the GH? Of course Axl didn't, Bucket quit. I don't understand the thinking behind with not going with a release in 04. Maybe it was just bombsville, with the band less than harmonious. But surely there would be some positives to having Bucket and Finck in the band on the release?

Maybe it's just like it is now, Axl wants video/promo money. I really think that is the only way to showcase certain songs. There was a Time seems to be the most popular song on the CD and it's rarely played live and never got much exposure on release. With a big ass video, however cheesy, it could really help push the album. If you have big videos for Better, TWAT and TIL it's bound to give the band some exposure and presence.

I think TWAT would be an awesome song to do a movie like video with.. If only...... Well there was a time...... Lol

[wasted]

TWAT is kind of Paradise City meets Estranged so I think would be the most epic video of all time. With the band rocking out early on with choppers circling but for the solos they would have traverse the globe on a huge dolphin-shaped yacht with lots of space for Axl to walk and smoke at the same time. TWAT makes walking to the 7-11 seem like an epic romantic movie.

I definitely think if TWAT was the first song you heard on the radio before the release of CD people would've been more likely to pick up the cd if they could find it.

[Estranged Coma]

TWAT is kind of Paradise City meets Estranged so I think would be the most epic video of all time. With the band rocking out early on with choppers circling but for the solos they would have traverse the globe on a huge dolphin-shaped yacht with lots of space for Axl to walk and smoke at the same time. TWAT makes walking to the 7-11 seem like an epic romantic movie.

I definitely think if TWAT was the first song you heard on the radio before the release of CD people would've been more likely to pick up the cd if they could find it.

I feel the exact same about the radio thing.. I think I was 18 when Cd came out and was really pumped to hear it on the radio idk why I just enjoy when gnr comes on the radio lol but every time in my area they only played Chinese democracy.. I . being so mad because that's all they would play (I don't hate CD the song but I don't think I ever listen to the album version) and I wanted them to play a song I thought would sound badass on the radio and the dj would like because I really liked the album! I don't think I ever heard a song except for CD played on the radio and it wasn't played for long in my area

[wasted]

yeah I think big budget videos of TWAT and Catcher may have put them on the map more.

I remember YCBM coming on the radio for the first time and it's pretty exciting. In the UK radio 1 often would play GNR, Nirvana, Oasis, QOTSA, Foo Fighters in the day time. And that's where songs like SOD, TWAT, Catcher could really slot in. It's not wall to wall rock but they'll play something like Radiohead, Muse. So I think the epics would do better than Shackler's for example.

If it didn't leak and was built on the radio for the first day TWAT would probably caused a stir.

[SlashisGOD]

Talking about the leaks, I think that also played a part in the downfall of CD. I think a lot of people heard those and just thought it didn't sound like Guns or Axl. Immediately they were turned off, thinking why all the fuss over this album if this is what it sounds like?

As for the singles, I think the first should have been Street of Dreams as it sounds the most like classic GN'R. Perhaps Better could have been the second and Catcher the third. It's all moot now, but it's interesting looking back at the whole CD saga.

[stella]

In addition to Trent Reznor, there have been other acts that have had issues with UMG over the past five or six years. The Cure really butted heads with them in 2008 when their album came out (and coincidentally it was released in fall 2008 after delays). UMG screwed up a bunch of things with them and refused to let them put out the double album they'd recorded. The band was forced to cut it down to a single album and sort of abandon the concept they'd had for it all. Robert Smith was posting online letters that actually asked "does someone at UMG have something against me or my band? Please tell me." He finally found a way to fulfill his contract obligation to them with an EP and got out of Dodge (and out of his contract with them) after that.

Point being that although the situation with Axl is unique, UMG doesn't seem to be the most cooperative of labels.

Edited May 7, 2014 by stella

[stratus]

[wasted]

Talking about the leaks, I think that also played a part in the downfall of CD. I think a lot of people heard those and just thought it didn't sound like Guns or Axl. Immediately they were turned off, thinking why all the fuss over this album if this is what it sounds like?

As for the singles, I think the first should have been Street of Dreams as it sounds the most like classic GN'R. Perhaps Better could have been the second and Catcher the third. It's all moot now, but it's interesting looking back at the whole CD saga.

I think also at the time cds were released and the first two weeks are when it sells. So the buzz of the record had been diminished by the leaks. Better got the most buzz when it leaked. Chi dem, SOD, just about everything had been heard on release. And no video. It just never had it's time to shine. maybe there was some idea to turn focus on Shackler's and If the World, if they had videos, who knows, then This I Love could have had a video.

I think the main thing was it just wasn't the original line up. That's the thing that really held CD back, whether it's media or fans, there was always going to be apprehension about really praising it. There was never going to be mad love for it.

It kind of makes sense that for record that was so difficult to get made didn't have a release that was all wine and roses. Axl released a record about this struggle, then the label give him 30 mil for videos wouldn't really make sense.

As it is CD is like Tumbleweed Connection meets Exile on Main Street made in a 90s cult rock style.

[Crash Diet]

The evidence is the 2010 remix album flop
I think since then Axl really doesn't give a shit about a new record

[Silent Jay]

The evidence is the 2010 remix album flop

I think since then Axl really doesn't give a shit about a new record

The whole idea was bad enough, GNR are not for clubs nowadays. And a lot GNR fans dislike Chinese, I don't see what's the point.

Edited May 7, 2014 by Silent Jay

[dalsh327]

I don't think the leaks affected sales when they were doing some of the songs live. I think Axl knew the crowd's reaction to the new songs wasn't strong, he could see it every night he played any of the new songs. He knew ChiDem could flop for a bunch of reasons, and a lot of time had gone by. The fans were familiar with the songs by the time the album was out, even if they never heard the leaks.

Did file sharing hurt it? Sort of, but not making it easily available did, too. You could just as easily record the stream and have a free copy of it without having to go to Best Buy. Axl could see which songs were getting hits more than others on MySpace.

Lady Gaga's probably going to be complaining about Interscope after Artpop tanked and they're going to interfere with her next album. Welcome to the jungle, Gaga.

[magisme]

Axl would have 5 Nu albums out by now if it weren't for the label.

[wasted]

I think if Slash was on CD the label would have backed it much earlier. Like if in 2000 Slash did solos for The Blues and TIL they would have put up video money.

[phaeryen]

Try this logic on for size:

a GN'R record is a guaranteed million seller in a time where such are becoming more rare each year. Record labels are starving for more income. Recording, mixing and mastering an album is cheaper and more convenient than it has ever been before.

Against these facts please tell me again, why would the label wouldn't want to put out a GNR album?