CIA chief John Brennan to face down pressure over torture report

[Facekicker]

Does producing intel make it more acceptable to torture prisoners?

If this is considered acceptable then the US has truly lost its way.

[Ace Nova]

Does producing intel make it more acceptable to torture prisoners?

If this is considered acceptable then the US has truly lost its way.

That question is extremely relative.

If torturing someone that has intel that could potentially save the lives of thousands of innocent people? I would say yes. If that person being tortured had any sort of morals, he/she wouldn't have to be tortured to begin with.

And not sure why this is such a shock to anyone. This has been going on for hundreds (or even thousands) of years....long before the U.S. was even a country.

[downzy]

Does producing intel make it more acceptable to torture prisoners?

If this is considered acceptable then the US has truly lost its way.

That question is extremely relative.

If torturing someone that has intel that could potentially save the lives of thousands of innocent people? I would say yes. If that person being tortured had any sort of morals, he/she wouldn't have to be tortured to begin with.

And not sure why this is such a shock to anyone. This has been going on for hundreds (or even thousands) of years....long before the U.S. was even a country.

Yes, but so too did slavery. Does that make slavery acceptable?

And the U.S. signed a UN treaty against torture in 1988. Doesn't it's international obligations mean anything anymore?

I consider myself a fairly practical individual, but I have a hard time believing the situation you describe above would ever happen. People who desire to kill thousands of people likely aren't going to break if you torture them.

[Ace Nova]

Does producing intel make it more acceptable to torture prisoners?

If this is considered acceptable then the US has truly lost its way.

That question is extremely relative.

If torturing someone that has intel that could potentially save the lives of thousands of innocent people? I would say yes. If that person being tortured had any sort of morals, he/she wouldn't have to be tortured to begin with.

And not sure why this is such a shock to anyone. This has been going on for hundreds (or even thousands) of years....long before the U.S. was even a country.

Yes, but so too did slavery. Does that make slavery acceptable?

And the U.S. signed a UN treaty against torture in 1988. Doesn't it's international obligations mean anything anymore?

I consider myself a fairly practical individual, but I have a hard time believing the situation you describe above would ever happen. People who desire to kill thousands of people likely aren't going to break if you torture them.

They actually do and have "broken". From my understanding, that's exactly how Bin Laden was finally taken care of.

[Rustycage]

All of this went on and it produced no intel that wasn't unattainable through legal means.

This is what I have an issue with. How do you know this? How can something like this ever be proven?

People lie to you to make the pain stop.

If I tell you right now that you have a booger on your nose and you go look in the mirror, how can you prove that it didn't fall off before you got to the mirror? Wouldn't you logically assume that the booger never existed? It's the same as the "intel" that was all bullshit.

And the U.S. signed a UN treaty against torture in 1988. Doesn't it's international obligations mean anything anymore?

Thank you.

Keep in mind that the treaty was ratified later but a good reason to reference it for a lot of the people that seem to think this is only another R vs D issue is because of who signed it.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Rustycage

[Ace Nova]

All of this went on and it produced no intel that wasn't unattainable through legal means.

This is what I have an issue with. How do you know this? How can something like this ever be proven?

People lie to you to make the pain stop.

If I tell you right now that you have a booger on your nose and you go look in the mirror, how can you prove that it didn't fall off before you got to the mirror? Wouldn't you logically assume that the booger never existed? It's the same as the "intel" that was all bullshit.

I respectfully disagree.

Your theory that this information could be gathered without using these sorts of tactics, basically is saying that the CIA just wants to spend money and time torturing people for no reason at all. So basically, the CIA is a bunch of soulless, sadomasochists?

That defies all sense and logic, sorry.

[Rustycage]

All of this went on and it produced no intel that wasn't unattainable through legal means.

This is what I have an issue with. How do you know this? How can something like this ever be proven?

People lie to you to make the pain stop.

If I tell you right now that you have a booger on your nose and you go look in the mirror, how can you prove that it didn't fall off before you got to the mirror? Wouldn't you logically assume that the booger never existed? It's the same as the "intel" that was all bullshit.

I respectfully disagree.

Your theory that this information could be gathered without using these sorts of tactics, basically is saying that the CIA just wants to spend money and time torturing people for no reason at all. So basically, the CIA is a bunch of soulless, sadomasochists?

That defies all sense and logic, sorry.

Even the CIA chief JUST said that they gathered no good intel through those means. He says that it is "unknowable." Therefore, they were fed any info that came into the minds of the tortured to just make the pain stop. He's letting shit roll down hill by blaming "rogue interrogators." Unfortunately not many are going to follow that.

You are trying to make sense and logic out of absolutely abhorrent actions?

Regardless if you want to grasp at straws to justify it, it is a war crime.

There's no coming back from that. Our country is officially on watch and with this only contributing to more of our enemies, our national security has been affected. This isn't just some temporary story that everyone can dismiss as a partisan spat. This is a pretty dark path and I'm not going to use hopeless "logical" attempts to justify it when it's clear that this path doesn't end well.

[Ace Nova]

All of this went on and it produced no intel that wasn't unattainable through legal means.

This is what I have an issue with. How do you know this? How can something like this ever be proven?

People lie to you to make the pain stop.

If I tell you right now that you have a booger on your nose and you go look in the mirror, how can you prove that it didn't fall off before you got to the mirror? Wouldn't you logically assume that the booger never existed? It's the same as the "intel" that was all bullshit.

I respectfully disagree.

Your theory that this information could be gathered without using these sorts of tactics, basically is saying that the CIA just wants to spend money and time torturing people for no reason at all. So basically, the CIA is a bunch of soulless, sadomasochists?

That defies all sense and logic, sorry.

Even the CIA chief JUST said that they gathered no good intel through those means. He says that it is "unknowable." Therefore, they were fed any info that came into the minds of the tortured to just make the pain stop. He's letting shit roll down hill by blaming "rogue interrogators." Unfortunately not many are going to follow that.

You are trying to make sense and logic out of absolutely abhorrent actions?

Regardless if you want to grasp at straws to justify it, it is a war crime.

There's no coming back from that. Our country is officially on watch and with this only contributing to more of our enemies, our national security has been affected. This isn't just some temporary story that everyone can dismiss as a partisan spat. This is a pretty dark path and I'm not going to use hopeless "logical" attempts to justify it when it's clear that this path doesn't end well.

Exactly. He stated the truth...which is it's "unknowable". Which means he does not know if the intelligence they gathered could have been gained through other measures. In my opinion....OBVIOUSLY they couldn't have been or else they wouldn't have done what they did. They're not a bunch of idiots...they're the CIA.

Whatever....this is where I depart from the left and follow what I hold to be true. They did what had to be done.

Most of it was done off of US soil.....so good luck prosecuting it.

[Facekicker]

Your take on this is pretty disgusting KK.

[Ace Nova]

Your take on this is pretty disgusting KK.

I guess it would be. If you think that me coming across in defense of the CIA is condoning torture, it would be.

The CIA did exactly what they were supposed to do.

[Rustycage]

All of this went on and it produced no intel that wasn't unattainable through legal means.

This is what I have an issue with. How do you know this? How can something like this ever be proven?

People lie to you to make the pain stop.

If I tell you right now that you have a booger on your nose and you go look in the mirror, how can you prove that it didn't fall off before you got to the mirror? Wouldn't you logically assume that the booger never existed? It's the same as the "intel" that was all bullshit.

I respectfully disagree.

Your theory that this information could be gathered without using these sorts of tactics, basically is saying that the CIA just wants to spend money and time torturing people for no reason at all. So basically, the CIA is a bunch of soulless, sadomasochists?

That defies all sense and logic, sorry.

Even the CIA chief JUST said that they gathered no good intel through those means. He says that it is "unknowable." Therefore, they were fed any info that came into the minds of the tortured to just make the pain stop. He's letting shit roll down hill by blaming "rogue interrogators." Unfortunately not many are going to follow that.

You are trying to make sense and logic out of absolutely abhorrent actions?

Regardless if you want to grasp at straws to justify it, it is a war crime.

There's no coming back from that. Our country is officially on watch and with this only contributing to more of our enemies, our national security has been affected. This isn't just some temporary story that everyone can dismiss as a partisan spat. This is a pretty dark path and I'm not going to use hopeless "logical" attempts to justify it when it's clear that this path doesn't end well.

Exactly. He stated the truth...which is it's "unknowable". Which means he does not know if the intelligence they gathered could have been gained through other measures. In my opinion....OBVIOUSLY they couldn't have been or else they wouldn't have done what they did. They're not a bunch of idiots...they're the CIA.

Whatever....this is where I depart from the left and follow what I hold to be true. They did what had to be done.

Most of it was done off of US soil.....so good luck prosecuting it.

Is your position that you are okay with the actions as long as you get some, any, kind of info?

The CIA did exactly what they were supposed to do.

Wut?

They violated international law. They are war criminals. You think that's their job?

What country IS this?

[Ace Nova]

All of this went on and it produced no intel that wasn't unattainable through legal means.

This is what I have an issue with. How do you know this? How can something like this ever be proven?

People lie to you to make the pain stop.

If I tell you right now that you have a booger on your nose and you go look in the mirror, how can you prove that it didn't fall off before you got to the mirror? Wouldn't you logically assume that the booger never existed? It's the same as the "intel" that was all bullshit.

I respectfully disagree.

Your theory that this information could be gathered without using these sorts of tactics, basically is saying that the CIA just wants to spend money and time torturing people for no reason at all. So basically, the CIA is a bunch of soulless, sadomasochists?

That defies all sense and logic, sorry.

Even the CIA chief JUST said that they gathered no good intel through those means. He says that it is "unknowable." Therefore, they were fed any info that came into the minds of the tortured to just make the pain stop. He's letting shit roll down hill by blaming "rogue interrogators." Unfortunately not many are going to follow that.

You are trying to make sense and logic out of absolutely abhorrent actions?

Regardless if you want to grasp at straws to justify it, it is a war crime.

There's no coming back from that. Our country is officially on watch and with this only contributing to more of our enemies, our national security has been affected. This isn't just some temporary story that everyone can dismiss as a partisan spat. This is a pretty dark path and I'm not going to use hopeless "logical" attempts to justify it when it's clear that this path doesn't end well.

Exactly. He stated the truth...which is it's "unknowable". Which means he does not know if the intelligence they gathered could have been gained through other measures. In my opinion....OBVIOUSLY they couldn't have been or else they wouldn't have done what they did. They're not a bunch of idiots...they're the CIA.

Whatever....this is where I depart from the left and follow what I hold to be true. They did what had to be done.

Most of it was done off of US soil.....so good luck prosecuting it.

Is your position that you are okay with the actions as long as you get some, any, kind of info?

The CIA did exactly what they were supposed to do.

Wut?

They violated international law. They are war criminals. You think that's their job?

What country IS this?

It's an extremely relative topic. Most likely one much too complex to discuss on a G N' R message board.

No, I don't believe that torturing people for "any" information is acceptable. At the same time, I do not believe that happened. I don't believe a bunch of CIA operatives tortured people "just for information".

What most people fail to understand is that 99% of the people in the CIA are the MOST STRAIGHT-EDGE, CLEAN CUT, ZERO CRIMINAL RECORD OR PROFILE PEOPLE OF SOCIETY. You just can't join the CIA. They are as clean....long story short....they're the biggest bunch of nerds and geeks you've ever known. They just don't go out and torture innocent people. They're not a typical soldier, etc. (Nothing against soldiers)

They're the cleanest, most innocent civilians in the fucking country before the become the CIA. Get it?

[Rustycage]

Most of it was done off of US soil.....so good luck prosecuting it.

And this. Do you understand what the issue is?

[Ace Nova]

Most of it was done off of US soil.....so good luck prosecuting it.

And this. Do you understand what the issue is?

That was just an idiotic comment, touche.

[Rustycage]

It's an extremely relative topic. Most likely one much too complex to discuss on a G N' R message board.

No, I don't believe that torturing people for "any" information is acceptable. At the same time, I do not believe that happened. I don't believe a bunch of CIA operatives tortured people "just for information".

What most people fail to understand is that 99% of the people in the CIA are the MOST STRAIGHT-EDGE, CLEAN CUT, ZERO CRIMINAL RECORD OR PROFILE PEOPLE OF SOCIETY. You just can't join the CIA. They are as clean....long story short....they're the biggest bunch of nerds and geeks you've ever known. They just don't go out and torture innocent people. They're not a typical soldier, etc. (Nothing against soldiers)

They're the cleanest, most innocent civilians in the fucking country before the become the CIA. Get it?

Do you have some link to prove that 99% are the most straight edge clean and lalalalalala?

These tactics were not "rogue" They were trickled down from above. Even Cheney says he would do it again. When interrogators refused to do the tactics, they hired private contractors to do it. Yes, they did it just to do it. In a lot of the cases, they didn't even try conventional means. They IMMEDIATELY went to the torture.

You seem rather confused. Sorry.

And btw, this is being discussed everywhere so bringing it up on a GNR messageboard is as good a place as any. At the very least, it helps you learn some things about people you may respect. Anyways, it affects everyone, imo. Even GNR fans.

[Jakey Styley]

It's not the example that the leader of the free world should be setting.

[magisme]

The so-called enhanced interrogation techniques put into practice by the Central Intelligence Agency after the September 2001 terrorist attacks and continued in subsequent years during the Bush administration are the focus of a report being released by the Senate Intelligence Committee — and a subject on which Americans have had mixed views.

The use of practices like waterboarding began to surface publicly in press reports not long after 9/11, and when the Pew Research Center first surveyed on the subject in July 2004, a narrow majority (53%) said the use of torture to gain important information from suspected terrorists could be only rarely or never justified.

Opinion has shifted since then, with more Americans finding torture acceptable. In August 2011, a narrow majority (53%) of Americans said the use of torture could be often or sometimes justified, while 42% said it could only rarely be justified or not be justified at all.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/12/09/americans-views-on-use-of-torture-in-fighting-terrorism-have-been-mixed/

We're going bad places.

[Ace Nova]

It's an extremely relative topic. Most likely one much too complex to discuss on a G N' R message board.

No, I don't believe that torturing people for "any" information is acceptable. At the same time, I do not believe that happened. I don't believe a bunch of CIA operatives tortured people "just for information".

What most people fail to understand is that 99% of the people in the CIA are the MOST STRAIGHT-EDGE, CLEAN CUT, ZERO CRIMINAL RECORD OR PROFILE PEOPLE OF SOCIETY. You just can't join the CIA. They are as clean....long story short....they're the biggest bunch of nerds and geeks you've ever known. They just don't go out and torture innocent people. They're not a typical soldier, etc. (Nothing against soldiers)

They're the cleanest, most innocent civilians in the fucking country before the become the CIA. Get it?

Do you have some link to prove that 99% are the most straight edge clean and lalalalalala?

These tactics were not "rogue" They were trickled down from above. Even Cheney says he would do it again. When interrogators refused to do the tactics, they hired private contractors to do it. Yes, they did it just to do it. In a lot of the cases, they didn't even try conventional means. They IMMEDIATELY went to the torture.

You seem rather confused. Sorry.

And btw, this is being discussed everywhere so bringing it up on a GNR messageboard is as good a place as any. At the very least, it helps you learn some things about people you may respect. Anyways, it affects everyone, imo. Even GNR fans.

Agreed.

And maybe I don't know as much as I should about the issue. I haven't "Googled" it....I'm just going off my own personal knowledge. And I have no idea whether this is a political issue or not....nor could I care less. I'm non partisan and have been for some time now.

I won't ever hold the CIA accountable for any of it's actions that were authorized by the U.S. Government. Doing so is nonsensical.

[Rustycage]

How is it "just doing what you have to do" when you puree someone's food, shove a tube up their ass and proceed to "feed them anally?"

That's just 100% sadistic.

[Ace Nova]

How is it "just doing what you have to do" when you puree someone's food, shove a tube up their ass and proceed to "feed them anally?"

That's just 100% sadistic.

No fucking shit, dude...that's torture.

I will NEVER justify torture itself.

It's disgusting.

But if it came down to it....and I want YOU to ask yourself this question:

If your child was kidnapped, and you captured one of his kidnappers....would you torture him/her to get your child back?

[Rustycage]

Why do we have to resort to our imagination of family members being kidnapped. This isn't a Liam Neeson movie.

But that's still beside the point. A lot of the detainees(around 25%) are knowingly wrongfully being held just because they looked similar to targets. And the CIA KNOW they are wrongly detained.

In your fantasy, are you torturing your neighbors because they could have been involved? Are you torturing people that supposedly look like a potential kidnapper? You should probably include that since it's also a huge part of the debate. Everyone's assholes are puckered right now and they are only wanting to ask the question, "Does it get results?" but is a lot more than that.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Rustycage

[DR DOOM]

Right after 9/11 W came out and said they were going to use some unpleasant methods (or whatever his exact words were) alongside a whole heap of other scary, fucked up shit ( you're either with us or against us/ don't forget this is the guy that tried to kill my dad spring to mind)

and we know that a lot of innocent people were sent to Guantanamo Bay and remain there to this day.

I should point out that I'm not an American, but none of these torture revelations come as a surprise- I don't condone what goes on in places like Gitmo ( it's illegal, isn't it?) but as I was alluding to earlier whatever these guys have been getting up to pales in significance to what fuckers like I.S. are doing in Iraq and Syria.

[Ace Nova]

Why do we have to resort to our imagination of family members being kidnapped. This isn't a Liam Neeson movie.

But that's still beside the point. A lot of the detainees(around 25%) are knowingly wrongfully being held just because they looked similar to targets. And the CIA KNOW they are wrongly detained.

In your fantasy, are you torturing your neighbors because they could have been involved? Are you torturing people that supposedly look like a potential kidnapper? You should probably include that since it's also a huge part of the debate. Everyone's assholes are puckered right now and they are only wanting to ask the question, "Does it get results?" but is a lot more than that.

No, that's not the question. Because even by worst estimates, 80% of those idiots that were tortured deserved to be there.

So I ask you AGAIN. If there was an 80% chance some guy knew where your kidnapped child was, and wouldn't tell you. Would YOU torture him?

Answer the question.

[Lio]

Are we comparing the emotional reaction of a parent whose kid is kidnapped to systematic torture organized by the government?

Torture can never be condoned. One, it is inhumane; two, it leads to people saying whatever the interrogators want just to stop the pain. I thought that was common knowledge really.

[Rustycage]

That's a dumb question that has no place in the debate. Why? Because......

It would still be illegal.

It is still immoral.

It isn't paid for with tax payer dollars.

It doesn't negatively impact our national security.

You aren't pulling people at random to carry out sadistic actions.

You aren't murdering people that don't give you information.

You aren't shoving their food in their ass.

You aren't making someone that knows nothing stand on a broken foot for 44 hours straight.

You aren't handcuffing people to the ceiling when they aren't telling you anything and you can't even be sure that they do.

Do you want me to go on?

You are ignoring the details of the issue with a question that belongs on a Liam Neeson or Charles Bronson movie poster. It's truly a dumb question. Asking people to appeal to emotion to justify it is just what terrorists do.

If that is how you feel about it, terrorism won. GG