Keep the United Kingdom United

[Len Cnut]

27 minutes ago, Snake-Pit said:

Question is, what would David Cameron think of those Three Little Pigs?

They love a spit-roast at these Torys do's yknow.  Do it up all nice, bung an apple in its mouth (so no one can hear it squeal  )

[Snake-Pit]

Just now, Len B'stard said:

They love a spit-roast at these Torys do's yknow.  Do it up all nice, bung an apple in its mouth (so no one can hear it squeal  )

[DieselDaisy]

Tories are more, caught in flagrante with a Guardsman on Clapham Common. Traditionally. The era of pin-stripped suits. Or a prostitute-spy scandal like the Profumo affair.

[Snake-Pit]

Just now, DieselDaisy said:

Tories are more, caught in flagrante with a Guardsman on Clapham Common. Traditionally. The era of pin-stripped suits. Or a prostitute-spy scandal like the Profumo affair.

I've got stoned on that common...

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, Snake-Pit said:

I've got stoned on that common...

With an old pin-striped Tory who then wanted to get his way with you? Did he call you 'old fruit'?

[Snake-Pit]

Just now, DieselDaisy said:

With an old pin-striped Tory who then wanted to get his way with you? Did he call you 'old fruit'?

No...

 

Did that happen to you?

[DieselDaisy]

6 minutes ago, Snake-Pit said:

No...

 

Did that happen to you?

No. It sounds like the sort of think that would happen to you though. A Tory is not averse to a bit of dogging.

[Snake-Pit]

4 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

No. It sounds like the sort of think that would happen to you though. A Tory is not averse to a bit of dogging.

You say that like there's something wrong with dogging; Are you sure you're not a dirty Commie Pinko?

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, Snake-Pit said:

You say that like there's something wrong with dogging; Are you sure you're not a dirty Commie Pinko?

I can think of a few fateful hazards which could occur from dogging.

[Snake-Pit]

Just now, DieselDaisy said:

I can think of a few fateful hazards which could occur from dogging.

Especially on that common...

 

A bit of homo sex and before you know it

*

you're shanked !

[Snake-Pit]

On 6/26/2016 at 8:40 PM, Chewbacca said:

WTH, snakes. Didn't you start a thread about how EU didn't work for britain a while ago?

Yeah, but this thread is about Scotland staying in the UK / UK not breaking up.

[Snake-Pit]

I wonder what 'Scotland's first minister for MYGNR' @Graeme has to say about Scotland's future in the UK?

Edited June 30, 2016 by Snake-Pit

[Len Cnut]

2 hours ago, Snake-Pit said:

I've got stoned on that common...

Funnily enough, so have I

2 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

Tories are more, caught in flagrante with a Guardsman on Clapham Common. Traditionally. The era of pin-stripped suits. Or a prostitute-spy scandal like the Profumo affair.

Ever see that episode of The New Statesman when Rik Mayall (playing Tory MP Alan B'stard) gets caught in a police raid at a brothel, the filth show up and everyone in there is an MP or a judge or a Mason or a high up in Scotland Yard or something so they let em all off 

Edited June 30, 2016 by Len B'stard

[Graeme]

2 hours ago, Snake-Pit said:

I wonder what 'Scotland's first minister for MYGNR' @Graeme has to say about Scotland's future in the UK?

Snakes, you know all the anger and indignation you've been expressing on the forum since London voted heavily to remain and thanks to the votes of the rest of England and Wales will be leaving anyway? Imagine feeling like that after every single poll since you became a voter. That's what it's like to be Scottish... To continually vote for one thing and have virtually the polar opposite foisted on you by Tory England and Wales. In my personal experience, 2010, 2011, 2015, 2016 (twice), not to mention the entirety of the 80s and 3/4 of the 90s as well, even during the New Labour years, the party transformed into the spineless Tory-lite brigade they've become today.

I'm sick to death of the UK and its right-wing politics. I don't want to be a part of the post-EU British state, I don't want to be governed by Michael Gove or Theresa May, I don't want nuclear weapons in Scotland's waters anymore. I don't want Scotland to have a future in the UK.

[DieselDaisy]

1 hour ago, Len B'stard said:

Funnily enough, so have I

Ever see that episode of The New Statesman when Rik Mayall (playing Tory MP Alan B'stard) gets caught in a police raid at a brothel, the filth show up and everyone in there is an MP or a judge or a Mason or a high up in Scotland Yard or something so they let em all off 

No but it does sound like my type of comedy. I'll have to watch it. 

[Len Cnut]

11 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

No but it does sound like my type of comedy. I'll have to watch it. 

You really should, i think you'll love it!

[DieselDaisy]

50 minutes ago, Graeme said:

Snakes, you know all the anger and indignation you've been expressing on the forum since London voted heavily to remain and thanks to the votes of the rest of England and Wales will be leaving anyway? Imagine feeling like that after every single poll since you became a voter. That's what it's like to be Scottish... To continually vote for one thing and have virtually the polar opposite foisted on you by Tory England and Wales. In my personal experience, 2010, 2011, 2015, 2016 (twice), not to mention the entirety of the 80s and 3/4 of the 90s as well, even during the New Labour years, the party transformed into the spineless Tory-lite brigade they've become today.

I'm sick to death of the UK and its right-wing politics. I don't want to be a part of the post-EU British state, I don't want to be governed by Michael Gove or Theresa May, I don't want nuclear weapons in Scotland's waters anymore. I don't want Scotland to have a future in the UK.

But why support the (economically) centrist, thoroughly corporate, European Union? That is what England and Wales cannot fathom about Scotland, that a sizeable chunk of the country (62%), a people much more to the left than England and Wales - which I concede - and with apparent national aspirations, would tie their mast to the thoroughly anti-working class federalist (i.e. anti-national) institute that is the European Union. It would make more sense if the advocates of Scottish independence reviled the European Union and United Kingdom about equally, given their (unrealised) left-wing aspiration.

It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, especially when you consider the fact that Spain and France, two of the European Union's big-players, are essentially anti-Scottish (independence), given their fear for their own autonomous communities.

If you advocate socialism, you should hate the European Union - it is that simple. The British old hard-left, e.g. Tony Benn, Dennis Skinner, have campaigned against the EU their whole life, seeing as it a mighty wall against the proliferation of European socialism. Europe's hard left, (e.g. the Greek Communist Party, Hungarian Workers' Party, Dutch Socialist Party), likewise, are Eurosceptic.

It makes no sense!

[Graeme]

27 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

But why support the (economically) centrist, thoroughly corporate, European Union? That is what England and Wales cannot fathom about Scotland, that a sizeable chunk of the country (62%), a people much more to the left than England and Wales - which I concede - and with apparent national aspirations, would tie their mast to the thoroughly anti-working class federalist (i.e. anti-national) institute that is the European Union. It would make more sense if the advocates of Scottish independence reviled the European Union and United Kingdom about equally, given their (unrealised) left-wing aspiration.

It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, especially when you consider the fact that Spain and France, two of the European Union's big-players, are essentially anti-Scottish (independence), given their fear for their own autonomous communities.

If you advocate socialism, you should hate the European Union - it is that simple. The British old hard-left, e.g. Tony Benn, Dennis Skinner, have campaigned against the EU their whole life, seeing as it a mighty wall against the proliferation of European socialism. Europe's hard left, (e.g. the Greek Communist Party, Hungarian Workers' Party, Dutch Socialist Party), likewise, are Eurosceptic.

It makes no sense!

There's not much in my post advocating the EU, and I did say in the run-up to the vote that I hated both sides. I hate the way the EU fucked over the people of Ireland, Greece and Spain because of the mistakes and greed of their political elites, I'm not much of a fan of its pseudo-democracy or the prospect of TTIP. I do like the free movement of people, I like the funding for science and the collaborative projects in academia and beyond, I like the convention on human rights that potential PM May hates so much.

Also, Sweden and Denmark are both Nordic social democracies that function inside the EU with opt-outs on things like currency, I reckon Scotland should aspire to something similar.

Ultimately, the democratic principal that Scotland could vote 62%-38% in favour of something and end up getting the opposite result, not to mention the natural ascendancy of the Tories and the utter fucking shambles that is the Labour Party are making my skin crawl at the prospect of Scotland being in this Union any longer than it has to be.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Graeme

[DieselDaisy]

42 minutes ago, Graeme said:

There's not much in my post advocating the EU, and I did say in the run-up to the vote that I hated both sides. I hate the way the EU fucked over the people of Ireland, Greece and Spain because of the mistakes and greed of their political elites, I'm not much of a fan of its pseudo-democracy or the prospect of TTIP. I do like the free movement of people, I like the funding for science and the collaborative projects in academia and beyond, I like the convention on human rights that potential PM May hates so much.

Also, Sweden and Denmark are both Nordic social democracies that function inside the EU with opt-outs on things like currency, I reckon Scotland should aspire to something similar.

Your opinion is different from 62% of Scotland as well as the SNP; Sturgeon cravenly descended on Brussels to espouse Scotland's support for the EU and, despite receiving many amicable gestures of goodwill, was ultimately snubbed for her troubles by federalists like Tusk. The Spanish even reiterated their claim for the United Kingdom in toto. 

 

47 minutes ago, Graeme said:

Ultimately, the democratic principal that Scotland could vote 62%-38% in favour of something and end up getting the opposite result,

What about Northern 'Labour' heartlands of England which overwhelmingly vote Labour yet get a Tory premiership. Do you see any desires from Northumberland/Tyne and Wear for independence? If you are going to whinge for revolution and the destruction of your country every time you get a government you did not vote for, two way party politics is simply never going to work for you personally - and this applies to Snakepit and his London thing. There is actually much greater eco-socio similarity between those areas of England mentioned with working-class urban areas of Scotland than say, with other parts of England such as London or the home counties. An arch socialist - and I'm not a socialist (as you know) so I'm speaking rhetorically here - would argue for trans-national class unity, i.e, solidarity with working class communities of Scotland, England and Wales. This is essentially the ideology of the Bennites, the British hard-left and indeed it goes back to the roots of communism/socialist itself, proletarian internationalism, 'nationalism' considered a somewhat flabby construct of the bourgeois.

From its EU love-fest, to its portmanteau of nationalism and socialism, there is really a contradiction in the Scottish independence movement.

[Graeme]

1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

Your opinion is different from 62% of Scotland as well as the SNP; Sturgeon cravenly descended on Brussels to espouse Scotland's support for the EU and, despite receiving many amicable gestures of goodwill, was ultimately snubbed for her troubles by federalists like Tusk. The Spanish even reiterated their claim for the United Kingdom in toto. 

 

What about Northern 'Labour' heartlands of England which overwhelmingly vote Labour yet get a Tory premiership. Do you see any desires from Northumberland/Tyne and Wear for independence? If you are going to whinge for revolution and the destruction of your country every time you get a government you did not vote for, two way party politics is simply never going to work for you personally - and this applies to Snakepit and his London thing. There is actually much greater eco-socio similarity between those areas of England mentioned with working-class urban areas of Scotland than say, with other parts of England such as London or the home counties. An arch socialist - and I'm not a socialist (as you know) so I'm speaking rhetorically here - would argue for trans-national class unity, i.e, solidarity with working class communities of Scotland, England and Wales. This is essentially the ideology of the Bennites, the British hard-left and indeed it goes back to the roots of communism/socialist itself, proletarian internationalism, 'nationalism' considered a somewhat flabby construct of the bourgeois.

From its EU love-fest, to its portmanteau of nationalism and socialism, there is really a contradiction in the Scottish independence movement.

Those Northern heartlands rejected any notion of self-governance when they tried to have devolution referenda in the early 2000s and the only one they managed to hold was rejected by 77.93% to 22.07%. Scotland voted 75% - 25% in favour in 1997. You're not comparing like for like, Northumberland and Yorkshire are the equivalent of Aberdeenshire, or Clackmannanshire up here. Scotland is a country with the institutions of statehood, a distinct legal jurisdiction, economy and polity. I suspect the parallels between working-class Northern English people and Scots could just as easily be made between working class people from the Republic of Ireland, which is a different nation-state altogether, so this notion that 'we're not that different' is not necessarily an effective argument against self-determination.

I think any hope of a pan-British socialist movement was destroyed by New Labour. The Scottish left has abandoned Labour because Labour abandoned the left to become electable in middle England, now it is a mess of a party with no idea what it stands for or what its purpose is. Scottish Labour is politically eviscerated, there is no vehicle for solidarity and sticking with England in the effort of trying to elect a social-democratic government sees Scotland in the role of a firefighter living next door to a serial arsonist as they keep setting their house alight by electing right-wing governments.

[DieselDaisy]

30 minutes ago, Graeme said:

Those Northern heartlands rejected any notion of self-governance when they tried to have devolution referenda in the early 2000s and the only one they managed to hold was rejected by 77.93% to 22.07%. Scotland voted 75% - 25% in favour in 1997. You're not comparing like for like, Northumberland and Yorkshire are the equivalent of Aberdeenshire, or Clackmannanshire up here. Scotland is a country with the institutions of statehood, a distinct legal jurisdiction, economy and polity. I suspect the parallels between working-class Northern English people and Scots could just as easily be made between working class people from the Republic of Ireland, which is a different nation-state altogether, so this notion that 'we're not that different' is not necessarily an effective argument against self-determination.

But that is not true socialism. True socialists do not care about nationalism per se, a creation of bourgeois capitalism (if I remember my Marx correctly), so much as a national infrastructure can be used to proliferate socialism - this at least is British hard-left ideology, who desire to use the United Kingdom (irrespective of the fact that many of them are republicans) to proliferate socialism. (This is also one of the reasons why the British hard-left were not inherently opposed to the British Empire in the early - mid 20th century as they saw the Empire as an infrastructure for implementing world socialism).

All countries can be broken down into various constituent parts until one is left with merely single people, both at a quasi-national/archaic level and a legislative level, e.g.,

British; larger nation groups such English and Scottish; smaller nation groups such as Manx and Cornish; historic counties; individual communities such as towns and villages (which often have a lot of individual pride)

United Kingdom; devolved home nation governments; counties; local town councils and boroughs

etc.

(British and Britain are perfectly sufficient [and patriotic if you will] terms to describe you and I, irrespective of our different political beliefs, seeing that they preceded the Union of Monarchies and the Act of Union by centuries - they are infact terms from antiquity. 'Britain' and 'British' actually precedes England and Scotland!.) 

One can go as far as one can until you are left with yourself sitting in your own house! If you are going to throw off an upper tier, simply because you do not agree with that upper tier's politics, you are merely left with anarchy. It seems somewhat like a stroppy teenager, not getting the trainers he wanted.

Heck, I do not agree with most of our politics. I didn't agree with the smoking ban or Blair's liberal gambling laws. I thought the Iraq war and the closeness of the American alliance was outrageous. You don't whinge about it, but vote, pressurise your MPs, and hope for governmental change - or, just endure it and call them 'wankers' like everybody else and put on the sport. You will see this same ''push and pull'' in every single democratic country in the world. It is called two-way party politics!

I really do wonder what a independent Scotland would look like, as there would have to be a 'right', perhaps coalescing around Sottish Labour and the few remaining Tories, and a left (presumably the SNP and Greens). The SNP, who would initially be in office, would suddenly be responsible for government which is a huge difference. To be a government in office is essentially to be universally hated and tormented by political enemies, and there would be no ''blaming the English'' now haha.

Edited July 1, 2016 by DieselDaisy

[Graeme]

51 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

But that is not true socialism. True socialists do not care about nationalism per se, a creation of bourgeois capitalism (if I remember my Marx correctly), so much as a national infrastructure can be used to proliferate socialism - this at least is British hard-left ideology, who desire to use the United Kingdom (irrespective of the fact that many of them are republicans) to proliferate socialism. (This is also one of the reasons why the British hard-left were not inherently opposed to the British Empire in the early - mid 20th century as they saw the Empire as an infrastructure for implementing world socialism).

All countries can be broken down into various constituent parts until one is left with merely single people, both at a quasi-national/archaic level and a legislative level, e.g.,

British; larger nation groups such English and Scottish; smaller nation groups such as Manx and Cornish; historic counties; individual communities such as towns and villages (which often have a lot of individual pride)

United Kingdom; devolved home nation governments; counties; local town councils and boroughs

etc.

(British and Britain are perfectly sufficient [and patriotic if you will] terms to describe you and I, irrespective of our different political beliefs, seeing that they preceded the Union of Monarchies and the Act of Union by centuries - they are infact terms from antiquity. 'Britain' and 'British' actually precedes England and Scotland!.) 

One can go as far as one can until you are left with yourself sitting in your own house! If you are going to throw off an upper tier, simply because you do not agree with that upper tier's politics, you are merely left with anarchy. It seems somewhat like a stroppy teenager, not getting the trainers he wanted.

Heck, I do not agree with most of our politics. I didn't agree with the smoking ban or Blair's liberal gambling laws. I thought the Iraq war and the closeness of the American alliance was outrageous. You don't whinge about it, but vote, pressurise your MPs, and hope for governmental change - or, just endure it and call them 'wankers' like everybody else and put on the sport. You will see this same ''push and pull'' in every single democratic country in the world. It is called two-way party politics!

I really do wonder what a independent Scotland would look like, as there would have to be a 'right', perhaps coalescing around Sottish Labour and the few remaining Tories, and a left (presumably the SNP and Greens). The SNP, who would initially be in office, would suddenly be responsible for government which is a huge difference. To be a government in office is essentially to be universally hated and tormented by political enemies, and there would be no ''blaming the English'' now haha.

Do the numbers I quoted above to you not suggest that Scottish national identity is more politically significant than pride in being from Cumbria, Manchester or Tiddleywink because the machinations of statehood I outlined above give Scots a greater degree of choice over their political future? With that degree of choice comes a greater degree of expectation.

Does all the noise that's come from Scotland over the last 6 (if not indeed the last 40) years not suggest to you that people up here don't see ourselves as just a soluble 8% of the UK electorate that can be interchanged with the population of an English city or county? The last paragraph you wrote seems to indicate that you haven't paid much mind to the significance of the Scottish Parliament.

One of the other main reasons for Labour's failure in Scotland was their inability to take the Scottish Parliament seriously; such was their dominance at the time they established it that they assumed it would be their fiefdom forevermore and continued to treat is as a parochial add-on while their 'big hitters' went down to Westminster. This meant that they were completely unprepared for when Holyrood became the focal point of Scottish public life, and that's what you perhaps don't understand from an external perspective, is that Edinburgh is far more prominent in the day-to-day running of Scotland than London. The SNP did send their best to Holyrood and have completely destroyed Labour in their old domain because of it.

[DieselDaisy]

23 minutes ago, Graeme said:

Do the numbers I quoted above to you not suggest that Scottish national identity is more politically significant than pride in being from Cumbria, Manchester or Tiddleywink because the machinations of statehood I outlined above give Scots a greater degree of choice over their political future? With that degree of choice comes a greater degree of expectation.

In actual fact there is a lot of regional pride wrapped up in the historic English counties, as well as towns and cities - I completely disagree here. This is expressed in regional dialects, sporting teams and other cultural aspects such as festivals and events. Who are you to say that a Scottish person is more proud of being a Scottish person, than say a Yorkshireman or a Geordie (or for that matter an Englishman)? You do not have the right to determine that, or even speculate on that.

23 minutes ago, Graeme said:

Does all the noise that's come from Scotland over the last 6 (if not indeed the last 40) years not suggest to you that people up here don't see ourselves as just a soluble 8% of the UK electorate that can be interchanged with the population of an English city or county? 

55.3%, over two million, voted Scotland to stay in the United Kingdom.

23 minutes ago, Graeme said:

One of the other main reasons for Labour's failure in Scotland was their inability to take the Scottish Parliament seriously; such was their dominance at the time they established it that they assumed it would be their fiefdom forevermore and continued to treat is as a parochial add-on while their 'big hitters' went down to Westminster. This meant that they were completely unprepared for when Holyrood became the focal point of Scottish public life, and that's what you perhaps don't understand from an external perspective, is that Edinburgh is far more prominent in the day-to-day running of Scotland than London. The SNP did send their best to Holyrood and have completely destroyed Labour in their old domain because of it.

I'm actually aware of devolution.

Edited July 1, 2016 by DieselDaisy

[Graeme]

You're doing the anecdotal thing again, Dies'... I said *politically* significant, Geordies can be as proud as they like but if they vote 78%-22% against self-government then they have no chance of turning that cultural pride into a political identity (and clearly no desire to, either). Scotland has done.

And 63% of Scots listed their identity as "Scottish Only" on the last census form (8% listed their identity as "British Only", most of whom were born outside Scotland); the leaps of faith around the economic case for independence had a lot more to do with the result of the referendum than national pride.

Then you'd be aware that the SNP are currently in their 3rd term in government and actually increased their share of the vote in the Scottish Parliament Elections 2016? (Though the d'Hondt system of proportional representation meant that they got slightly fewer seats because of this).

[DieselDaisy]

That would assume 37% ''British and Scottish''. Britain/British is a geographical/Celtic term anyway and has nothing to do with the creation of the United Kingdom state - none of these people need worry about the term. I'd imagine you'd get a sizable total for ''English only'' if you conducted that survey in England (Clearly home nationhood and British nationhood, not to mention Europeanness, are quite nebulous and confusing subjects). It is rather similar to 38% of Scots choosing to leave the EU, a minority but a sizable minority. We keep hearing these sweeping statements from the Scottish nationalists, ''about Scotland wanting to remain in the EU, and being forced to leave through the straight-jacket of the UK'' which simply is not true. (To say that ''Scotland wants to stay in the EU'' is only 8.2% different from saying ''England wants to leave the EU''!). In reality, 1,661,191 of Scottish people, from a population of 5,347,600, wish to remain in the European Union. It is barely the mandate the SNP are claiming!

Presumably you, a committed socialist, will not be voting SNP in future, they being so grovelling over a centrist big-business and woefully corrupt institute as the European Union?