Original AFD Artwork Debate

[wasted]

3 minutes ago, tremolo said:

I agree 100%

The idea that a person who was raised with values and in a proper environment will change their behaviour from respectful to violent/rapist just because they are exposed to some images that depict violence and rape is laughable and nothing but a scapegoat for a bunch of lunatics that just want to control what you can and cannot do.

The argument that some piece of art (or many) can have so much influence over people that it can undo 15-20 years of good parenting and values is absurd at best.

Some influence yes, but a rapist has a pathology. That doesn’t really come from a few images. And the whole victim culture and tribalism that is whipped up about it is kind of damaging as well. I really don’t think guys are really looking to just rape everyone in sight. 

[killuridols]

6 hours ago, wasted said:

I accept it’s role as a contributing factor in the broader context. And the part ingrained culture plays. Furthermore I don’t think online galleries of images of sexual violence are healthy. It’s the information overload that is more dangerous. 

Once something is deemed as art or to have some artistic merit it becomes more important to protect the free exchange of ideas, because if we can’t talk it will move to violence. 

I think if culturally we discourage widespread proliferation of rape images, that is the way to go. 

I’m more comfortable with sensitive or difficult images in art galleries, but think the odd provocative image on a t shirt is not a huge problem and should left to the market. If you have a raped women on your t shirt people might think you’rapieceofshit. But I don’t think it would be great if we all wore rape t shirts. 

Im not sure there are loads of rape images and things like that..... But remember art not only manifest through visuals. There are also lyrics, poems and other text that contain sexist messages.

To me, subtle messages are more dangerous and more effective than blunt stuff. The odd t-shirt might not be a huge problem but the person wearing it makes a statement through it.

[wasted]

38 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Im not sure there are loads of rape images and things like that..... But remember art not only manifest through visuals. There are also lyrics, poems and other text that contain sexist messages.

To me, subtle messages are more dangerous and more effective than blunt stuff. The odd t-shirt might not be a huge problem but the person wearing it makes a statement through it.

Like I said if you where a rape t shirt then you will be judged. I just don’t think it’s as damaging as other factors, and it’s more dangerous to censor but I think you agree. 

I do sort of feel like there is a fabric of reality which is used to feed off people’s fear. It probably stems more from human nature more than images. I’m chicken first guy I guess. 

[killuridols]

59 minutes ago, wasted said:

Like I said if you where a rape t shirt then you will be judged. I just don’t think it’s as damaging as other factors, and it’s more dangerous to censor but I think you agree. 

I do sort of feel like there is a fabric of reality which is used to feed off people’s fear. It probably stems more from human nature more than images. I’m chicken first guy I guess. 

I think the damage also depends on who you are reaching. Like with OIAM song, Axl said that nazi groups used it to back up their beliefs... Well, that's the risk you take when you offer such art.... People will interpret it as they want and use it as they want, even if the artist does not want to be associated to certain ideologies, at that point, their art is out of control.

I don't believe in censorship either but artists should take some responsibility with their art and be aware that not everybody has the same set of values or the intellectual tools to not act upon certain messages.

Taking risks is part of being a bold artist, that's ok with me, but once you do it, do not back off from it.

[wasted]

1 minute ago, killuridols said:

I think the damage also depends on who you are reaching. Like with OIAM song, Axl said that nazi groups used it to back up their beliefs... Well, that's the risk you take when you offer such art.... People will interpret it as they want and use it as they want, even if the artist does not want to be associated to certain ideologies, at that point, their art is out of control.

I don't believe in censorship either but artists should take some responsibility with their art and be aware that not everybody has the same set of values or the intellectual tools to not act upon certain messages.

Taking risks is part of being a bold artist, that's ok with me, but once you do it, do not back off from it.

Depends what kind of art or artist. Some art you can take back, some you can’t. 

You can’t dilute what you are doing, or play to the lowest common denominator.

It’s awareness v negative interpretations. 

You can lose the negative like in China but lose awareness too. So you have a rigid if not completely unpleasant culture. 

[killuridols]

1 minute ago, wasted said:

Depends what kind of art or artist. Some art you can take back, some you can’t. 

You can’t dilute what you are doing, or play to the lowest common denominator.

I know... what I meant is that if you write a song like OIAM and then you protest because the KKK used it as background music in one of their parties, well... deal with it 

[wasted]

1 hour ago, killuridols said:

I know... what I meant is that if you write a song like OIAM and then you protest because the KKK used it as background music in one of their parties, well... deal with it 

Yeah, sure. I guess they were 20 something and not like academic theorists. For Axl it seems to be about being an artist, he’s painting with words. Like Shackler’s and Catcher are almost impossible to get, you just have to take it as you can. 

[killuridols]

3 hours ago, wasted said:

Yeah, sure. I guess they were 20 something and not like academic theorists. For Axl it seems to be about being an artist, he’s painting with words. Like Shackler’s and Catcher are almost impossible to get, you just have to take it as you can. 

Age shouldn't be an excuse. I'd blame ignorance and lack of basic education, not so much being a scholar

[soon]

3 hours ago, wasted said:

Yeah, sure. I guess they were 20 something and not like academic theorists. For Axl it seems to be about being an artist, he’s painting with words. Like Shackler’s and Catcher are almost impossible to get, you just have to take it as you can. 

I think I understand Shacklers? Now I feel weird.  

[wasted]

2 hours ago, soon said:

I think I understand Shacklers? Now I feel weird.  

Well, explain it to me because I only worked it out after I read Axl’s quote. I thought it was about going on drinking binge. 

[wasted]

3 hours ago, killuridols said:

Age shouldn't be an excuse. I'd blame ignorance and lack of basic education, not so much being a scholar

I don’t think Axl studied racism and freedom of speech and then made a statement. They were just full of energy. Again it was street knowledge and being honest about what you say in certain situations. 

[killuridols]

1 minute ago, wasted said:

I don’t think Axl studied racism and freedom of speech and then made a statement. They were just full of energy. Again it was street knowledge and being honest about what you say in certain situations. 

b-o-l-l-o-c-k-s

[wasted]

5 minutes ago, killuridols said:

b-o-l-l-o-c-k-s

You think it was manifesto of hate? 

[killuridols]

1 minute ago, wasted said:

You think it was manifesto of hate? 

Yup.

[wasted]

Just now, killuridols said:

Yup.

I see it as Axl describing being on the street in LA. And basically what he thinks in this brutal situation. Then he accepts he doesn’t know right from wrong anymore. Then the chorus is Indianna calling him out, saying you’re not going to make it. I see it as determination to survive in this brutal world. 

[killuridols]

11 minutes ago, wasted said:

I see it as Axl describing being on the street in LA. And basically what he thinks in this brutal situation. Then he accepts he doesn’t know right from wrong anymore. Then the chorus is Indianna calling him out, saying you’re not going to make it. I see it as determination to survive in this brutal world. 

Maybe.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(lol, Im being monosyllabic now )

[wasted]

2 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Maybe.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(lol, Im being monosyllabic now )

But I think it maybe was released as like a fuck you to create controversy. 

[Scream of the Butterfly]

On 1.7.2018 at 2:38 PM, action said:

there is litterally a disclaimer leaflet in the package, that puts the painting in context, going at great lenghts to explain it is an anti rape message.

I don't know what is more absurd: GNR putting such a leaflet in the package in the first place, or people who still think it isn't enough to get a pass

 

On 1.7.2018 at 5:02 PM, baldek said:

Would you mind posting a picture of it, please?

So is there anybody willing to post a picture or otherwise share what it says on the leaflet? I'm not going to buy the box just to find out....

[killuridols]

51 minutes ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

So is there anybody willing to post a picture or otherwise share what it says on the leaflet? I'm not going to buy the box just to find out....

Would have to ask the ones who wasted spent a grand on it........ is it the new box??

I understood it was the original album vinyl or something

 

Either way, I can imagine the ridiculous bullshit it must be..... and why now???
Anti-rape message the bollocks of Axl  like.... do they really think we are all stupid here or what?

Edited July 4, 2018 by killuridols

[soon]

On July 3, 2018 at 5:10 PM, wasted said:

Well, explain it to me because I only worked it out after I read Axl’s quote. I thought it was about going on drinking binge. 

I dont think Ive read what Axl had to say. But it always seemed to me that in the verses he was speaking as the mind of a spree killer and in the chorus was speaking as himself and saying that one cant point to an actual reason for that type of violence and depravity? Like, lots of people have terrible lives and experiences. Many are unbalanced and underserved by the system. Many fantasize or ideate, but some just do. We cant calculate it?

And then what does that mean? I dont think Axl tries to answers that. Does it mean that there are monsters who arent like the rest of us? Does it mean that we all have that within us? Is it a reflection of the human condition - are they a pressure valve that the rest of us use vicariously? Is it our economic models taken to a logical conclusion? Is it an outside spiritual force? I think Axl just leaves all that on the table, satisfied that its most accurate to say that there isn't a reason. 

In the context of CD thematically, I take it as a statement against totalitarian regimes, thought policing/profiling, technological forecasting of behaviours, historical determination, the Uber 'we know you're drunk technology' etc. The State exists on the premise of its ability to know. But, for Axl, the human is wild in a way that the State fails to account for.

I dunno. I guess the chorus could also be in character, saying that since he doesnt believe that anything has a reason why not kill? But it just always struck me the other way.

[wasted]

33 minutes ago, soon said:

I dont think Ive read what Axl had to say. But it always seemed to me that in the verses he was speaking as the mind of a spree killer and in the chorus was speaking as himself and saying that one cant point to an actual reason for that type of violence and depravity? Like, lots of people have terrible lives and experiences. Many are unbalanced and underserved by the system. Many fantasize or ideate, but some just do. We cant calculate it?

And then what does that mean? I dont think Axl tries to answers that. Does it mean that there are monsters who arent like the rest of us? Does it mean that we all have that within us? Is it a reflection of the human condition - are they a pressure valve that the rest of us use vicariously? Is it our economic models taken to a logical conclusion? Is it an outside spiritual force? I think Axl just leaves all that on the table, satisfied that its most accurate to say that there isn't a reason. 

In the context of CD thematically, I take it as a statement against totalitarian regimes, thought policing/profiling, technological forecasting of behaviours, historical determination, the Uber 'we know you're drunk technology' etc. The State exists on the premise of its ability to know. But, for Axl, the human is wild in a way that the State fails to account for.

I dunno. I guess the chorus could also be in character, saying that since he doesnt believe that anything has a reason why not kill? But it just always struck me the other way.

I definitely didn’t get that until the chats. I barely knew about the school shooter or Bucket’s Shackler music/movie or whatever that was. I thought it was like YCBM style thing. It felt like it was about going on a bender and saying he was going to pull the trigger on CD, but when it’s out don’t pretend you helped me. There was no reason not to release it. Kind of like a Sorry type song. 

But with Axl’s hint, what you said fits. Media always says the reason for school shooters is x y and z. But maybe its more a lack of reason. 

Edited July 4, 2018 by wasted

[soon]

6 minutes ago, wasted said:

I definitely didn’t get that until the chats. I barely knew about the school shooter or Bucket’s Shackler music/movie or whatever that was. I thought it was like YCBM style thing. It felt like it was about going on a bender and saying he was going to pull the trigger on CD, but when it’s out don’t pretend you helped me. There was no reason not to release it. Kind of like a Sorry type song. 

But with Axl’s hint, what you said fits. Media always says the reason for school shooters is x y and z. But maybe its more a lack of reason. 

Thats an interesting take about it relating to the albums release. No doubt a part of Axls mind was always haunted by that, so it could certainly be in the mix.

What is that Buckets Shacklers music/movie? 

Oh, in the chats!? Ill have to check that out. Was too lazy to search from scratch, lol.

[wasted]

5 hours ago, soon said:

Thats an interesting take about it relating to the albums release. No doubt a part of Axls mind was always haunted by that, so it could certainly be in the mix.

What is that Buckets Shacklers music/movie? 

Oh, in the chats!? Ill have to check that out. Was too lazy to search from scratch, lol.

I think Bucket did a instrumental for a horror movie soundtrack that inspired Axl sonehow. Instrumental was callled Shackler? 

[killuridols]

18 hours ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

So is there anybody willing to post a picture or otherwise share what it says on the leaflet

Here you go and anybody who is curious as well!!

 

[soon]

8 hours ago, wasted said:

I think Bucket did a instrumental for a horror movie soundtrack that inspired Axl sonehow. Instrumental was callled Shackler? 

Oh, thanks. Chicken Dinner maybe? I know that played a role in the musical development but cant recall if it was for a movie.

Edited July 5, 2018 by soon