wasted Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 8 minutes ago, killuridols said: "To me, authorship does not equal approval, just as listenership does not equal approval. It's important when analyzing this type of music to not draw a connection between lyrical statements and the personal views of an artist "just because." Oftentimes a bad boy persona is just that — a persona — so when is a sexist message ironic or subversive, and when it is a hateful call to action? Since I'm not interested in digging into a stranger's psyche (and I know the futility of such an exercise), my engagement with an artist's intentions only goes so far. Once a piece of music is released into the world, it's my belief that each listener can imbue a work with his or her own meaning, too. That doesn't erase the original impetus for a song, but it can change it, if only for the individual listener." (...) "For me, handling the hypocrisy of loving sexist metal, punk, and hip hop was easy as a teenager — just don't think about it, right? — but I'll admit that as I've got older, it's gotten a bit harder to ignore. However, if there's anything I take away from my exercise of asking other women about their misogynistic musical tastes, it's an affirming reminder that there is no "correct" way to consume music and culture, just as there is no "correct" way to be a feminist — and what you put out into the world is more important than what you take in. People (and especially artists) are complicated, messy, cross-sections of contradictions. You are not necessarily complicit in a message because you choose to mindfully consume it. And while it would be far easier to only listen to empowering songs by Beyonce or Bikini Kill and live in a feminist-friendly bubble, I wasn't built that way. I'm just as intrigued by rage, by misogyny, by turmoil and by lyrics that provoke me and make me question and confront my own demons. And if they happen to be set to a sick beat? Even better." https://www.bustle.com/articles/66184-can-you-be-a-feminist-and-listen-to-misogynistic-music-women-reflect-on-loving-both-gloria I think that’s true, to comment on rape you have to depict it somehow? Especially in a visual form. The death of the author just leaves it to us to judge if there’s something there worth caring about. Weighing possibility of inciting rape against possible insights. I feel like I get a perspective on rape from the painting, Easy is inside the mind of a rapist. Just like Shackler’s puts in the mind of a school shooter or Catcher in the mind of someone with mental illness. Both are important to get the whole picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killuridols Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 1 minute ago, wasted said: I think that’s true, to comment on rape you have to depict it somehow? Especially in a visual form. Huh? Nope. 2 minutes ago, wasted said: The death of the author just leaves it to us to judge if there’s something there worth caring about Williams is not dead 2 minutes ago, wasted said: I feel like I get a perspective on rape from the painting, Easy is inside the mind of a rapist. You think ISE lyrics are the words of a rapist guy? I never thought of it that way... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasted Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, killuridols said: Huh? Nope. Williams is not dead You think ISE lyrics are the words of a rapist guy? I never thought of it that way... You could title a painting rape and do some abstract or something. But in certain visual forms it seems like common sense. Death of the author is just a way of saying the author doesn’t decide what the art means. Audience decides. Not literally a rapist but the mind set is getting there. It’s more rapist than a volunteer at the soup kitchen. This is just my interpretation. Not what I think the author is trying to say. I like to get both you know. Easy to me as a kid was like confidence shot. I probably made some bad decisions off the vibe of the song. But more often I let the fantasy character do the bad stuff. It just broadened my understanding of the world because I didn’t meet this guy in my life. It was a an option on how to look at life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killuridols Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 21 minutes ago, wasted said: Not literally a rapist but the mind set is getting there. It’s more rapist than a volunteer at the soup kitchen. I see...... not sure I agree with this. It is a bold thing to say. 23 minutes ago, wasted said: Easy to me as a kid was like confidence shot. I probably made some bad decisions off the vibe of the song. Do I want to know what that means? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasted Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 5 minutes ago, killuridols said: I see...... not sure I agree with this. It is a bold thing to say. Do I want to know what that means? I mean having that second Sprite at the movie theatre. It’s not bold at all, Easy sounds more like the mind set you get when everyone is kissing your ass. You get to expect to get everything you want. So you might over step your bounds. If you are a practicing misognist than that’s a step from rape. I’m kind of voyeuristic, I don’t really want to do anything, but I want kind of experience things remotely. Less risk. So in a way horror movies could lessen my curiosity. I don’t have to kill anyone I can just watch a John Woo movie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstar Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, wasted said: But the tone of Easy is sort of celebration of drink driving, treating women like shit, banging some guy’s sister, hitting people because you can. You know all the things worth living for. There’s a hint of this isn’t great but I can't prove it, as usual I do not have a source. I don't think It's So Easy is celebrating these things. I've never heard it like that. "It's so easy but nothing seems to please me" It's more nihilism and apathy than celebration to me. It's not just a hint on the chorus, it's the whole delivery of it. I don't understand how Appetite in general is seen by many as an album celebrating/glorifying the Sunset Strip lifestyle. The only song on the first side of the album that kind of does that is Nightrain. Even in Paradise City, although the chorus and the anthemic tone of the whole song give the impression of celebrating, there is no celebration in the verses. Edited June 30, 2018 by Blackstar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F*ck Fear Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 In today's day and age, I'm suprised the art work, the allegations directed at Axl, and some of the lyrics have not come back to bite this band on the ass. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstar Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 Another quote from Axl about the painting: Quote “It’s this picture of a big red monster jumping over a fence, in armor,” Rose explained in a 1986 interview with Rip. “There’s a lot of energy, and there’s like an old man robot, and his brain’s exploding, and he’s smashing little pink robots. I found the painting in a book. … It’s called ‘Appetite for Destruction.’ The picture is really strange; you can’t quite figure out what’s going on, and that always bothers you. But it captures the band. I submitted it to the band as a joke and they all went, ‘This is it!’ The girl, her shirt’s open, she was abused by somebody; I don’t know if it’s the robot or the monster.” https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/appetite-reconstruction-guns-n-roses-landmark-debut-album-30-years-later-063630123.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasted Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Blackstar said: I don't think It's So Easy is celebrating these things. I've never heard it like that. "It's so easy but nothing seems to please me" It's more nihilism and apathy than celebration to me. It's not just a hint on the chorus, it's the whole delivery of it. I don't understand how Appetite in general is seen by many as an album celebrating/glorifying the Sunset Strip lifestyle. The only song on the first side of the album that kind of does that is Nightrain. Even in Paradise City, although the chorus and the anthemic tone of the whole song give the impression of celebrating, there is no celebration in the verses. It may not be celebration, but just that situation where people are just giving you what you want even when you are behaving badly. That in a way is the rock n roll lifestyle. There’s a sense that they know it’s not right but they do it anyway because it’s so easy. Easy has an attitude problem. If I extend the same leeway to the painting. The raped girl is part of a wider scene, the robot is the bad guy, so the artist is kind of not guilty. Whereas Easy admits guilt of these kinds of things. There’s a kind of fatalistic acceptance of it. I do it because they let me or I got away with it. I don’t get that feeling from the painting because it’s not from the pov of the rapist who is saying this is cool. It seems like it’s more the cycle of violece. Robot rapes girl, that demon thing is going to destroy the rapist. There’s a sort of justice to it. The bad behaviour in Easy goes unpunished. Edited June 30, 2018 by wasted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstar Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 38 minutes ago, wasted said: It may not be celebration, but just that situation where people are just giving you what you want even when you are behaving badly. That in a way is the rock n roll lifestyle. There’s a sense that they know it’s not right but they do it anyway because it’s so easy. Easy has an attitude problem. If I extend the same leeway to the painting. The raped girl is part of a wider scene, the robot is the bad guy, so the artist is kind of not guilty. Whereas Easy admits guilt of these kinds of things. But they are different forms of art with different tools and different language. A painter can't/doesn't speak in the first person in the way someone who uses words can/does. Painters can make a self-portrait or paint their likeness in a scene (which is not common), but it's still different. On the other hand, someone who uses words is a narrator, regardless of whether the narration is in the first or third person. And a narrator is an impersonator, even if impersonating himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasted Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 5 minutes ago, Blackstar said: But they are different forms of art with different tools and different language. A painter can't/doesn't speak in the first person in the way someone who uses words can/does. Painters can make a self-portrait or paint their likeness in a scene (which is not common), but it's still different. On the other hand, someone who uses words is a narrator, regardless of whether the narration is in the first or third person. And a narrator is an impersonator, even if impersonating himself. You could have a painting which doesn’t offer any justice for the raped girl though. And you could have a song like Shackler’s where the singer plays the charscter of the shooter, then denies the shooters thoughts in the chorus. But Shacklers can sound like Easy to the listener. So it’s down to the viewers intrepretation in the end. That was just my take. There’s definitely a problem with an exciting song musically trying to make a deeper or more complex point. It slso depends on the use of “celebration”, some could see even the seedier side of things to be part of Sunset Strip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killuridols Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 5 hours ago, wasted said: You could have a painting which doesn’t offer any justice for the raped girl though Where is the justice? You assume the monster is going to destroy the robot but this is what the painter said. In the painting, the whole situation is stuck at a milisecond of the story, its not really resolving anything. We dont see the robot receiving punishment. What if it ran away from the monster? None of us know what happened later or before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasted Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 42 minutes ago, killuridols said: Where is the justice? You assume the monster is going to destroy the robot but this is what the painter said. In the painting, the whole situation is stuck at a milisecond of the story, its not really resolving anything. We dont see the robot receiving punishment. What if it ran away from the monster? None of us know what happened later or before. I think just the idea of the poosibility puts that in your head. We don’t need to know what happens, danger is everywhere. The robot will become prey. The triangle is a classic visual composition. You are led to consider 3 characters. In a way it’s more than the sum of it’s parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donny Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 does any of this matter in 2018 ? hendrix had an album with naked women in the cover. michael schenker had himself sat in an electric chair. led zep, blind faith and nirvana have all had naked children on the covers. its just album art from the past. the topless lady on the "Lies" inner sleeve might raise a few eyebrows nowadays with the "exploiting women" stuff in the media. times change, cultures change. get over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killuridols Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 31 minutes ago, wasted said: I think just the idea of the poosibility puts that in your head. We don’t need to know what happens, danger is everywhere. The robot will become prey. The triangle is a classic visual composition. You are led to consider 3 characters. In a way it’s more than the sum of it’s parts. Not for me. The avenger monster can always fail, similar to the justice system failing sometimes. Robot could stop functioning but that doesn't mean any justice. Humans die and bad ones too. It's not justice, its just nature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 (edited) 21 minutes ago, donny said: does any of this matter in 2018 ? hendrix had an album with naked women in the cover. michael schenker had himself sat in an electric chair. led zep, blind faith and nirvana have all had naked children on the covers. its just album art from the past. the topless lady on the "Lies" inner sleeve might raise a few eyebrows nowadays with the "exploiting women" stuff in the media. times change, cultures change. get over it. Perhaps what you're missing is that others draw a distinction between a woman who is naked as the result of rape and a woman who is naked to take a sexy picture. Edited June 30, 2018 by soon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donny Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 3 minutes ago, soon said: Perhaps what your missing is that others draw a distinction between a woman who is naked as the result of rape and a woman who is naked to take a sexy picture. you have a good point on that one but i still think there is an over reaction to this williams painting being used on an album cover. there have been so many controversial covers over the decades i wouldn't say this one stands out as many have been in "bad taste" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasted Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 29 minutes ago, killuridols said: Not for me. The avenger monster can always fail, similar to the justice system failing sometimes. Robot could stop functioning but that doesn't mean any justice. Humans die and bad ones too. It's not justice, its just nature. There’s a lind of justice to that. Even if nature, it shows the context. Whereas Easy seems to not have that. It’s more just the robot’s perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, donny said: you have a good point on that one but i still think there is an over reaction to this williams painting being used on an album cover. there have been so many controversial covers over the decades i wouldn't say this one stands out as many have been in "bad taste" I appreciate that you can see it that way. I dunno about an over reaction though; I hold the position that people discussing the painting in a not-only-positive-manner isnt really much of a thing at all. Especially since not many people have posted in this thread. I think that I have the exact same sentiment that you are expressing: "whats the big deal?" but for me I dont get the big deal with discussing art as if art matters? (not that Im suggesting you dont think art matters) I dont know that anyone says this painting stands out beyond other album covers; I think this thread is just because the wall-poster included in the reissue. Its just a GNR thing to discuss. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killuridols Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 10 minutes ago, wasted said: There’s a lind of justice to that. Even if nature, it shows the context. Whereas Easy seems to not have that. It’s more just the robot’s perspective. It cant be the robot perspective because the robot has no morals or even understanding of anything sexual. Unless it was an AI (and not even then) but that robot is clearly not an AI. It is a primitive robot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donny Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, soon said: I appreciate that you can see it that way. I dunno about an over reaction though; I hold the position that people discussing the painting in a not-only-positive-manner isnt really much of a thing at all. Especially since not many people have posted in this thread. I think that I have the exact same sentiment that you are expressing: "whats the big deal?" but for me I dont get the big deal with discussing art as if art matters? (not that Im suggesting you dont think art matters) I dont know that anyone says this painting stands out beyond other album covers; I think this thread is just because the wall-poster included in the reissue. Its just a GNR thing to discuss. outside of the GN'R world. imagine this was just a "all music in general" forum and someone started a thread on controversial album covers. i would say it would be in the top 10 but not in the top 5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 6 minutes ago, donny said: outside of the GN'R world. imagine this was just a "all music in general" forum and someone started a thread on controversial album covers. i would say it would be in the top 10 but not in the top 5. I agree that within certain perimeters that painting might find its self in top 10 of controversial pop/rock album covers (despite this painting not being the official cover). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killuridols Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 So it is less of a rape picture if it's in the top 10 but not top 5? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasted Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 17 minutes ago, killuridols said: It cant be the robot perspective because the robot has no morals or even understanding of anything sexual. Unless it was an AI (and not even then) but that robot is clearly not an AI. It is a primitive robot. I see it as a metaphor in the broader sense of meaning. It’s the law of the jungle in the near future. To get that you have to look at the whole of AFD, or maybe a song like RQ. It’s much easier to become part of the text with music though. Looking at a painting like this is more detached. Maybe Rothko’s Seagram murals are trying to make you one with the art. Abstract expressionism, but this graphic style is like Renaissance stuff, you have to read the images consciously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donny Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 1 minute ago, killuridols said: So it is less of a rape picture if it's in the top 10 but not top 5? rape is rape ! but i am not concentrating on this one particular album cover, i am just comparing it to others in equally bad taste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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