Hip-Hop in 2014 Thread

[drtydane]

Most important album of the decade tho? Holy fuck. Doesn't say a lot about what's going on in the music world. I can see why some people like him I guess. But to be honest, at this point in my life, there are very few new guys in rap that I can get into.

Dirty Diana hahaha.

[magisme]

I agree with pretty much everything Len is saying.

The blackest album? The album college kids needed to hear? What in the fuck?

[Len Cnut]

When you call him something like that you compare him and his content to some ordinary, run of the mill rapper, when in actuality he actually lived the life he talks about. That's what draws a lot of people to him, outside of his actual rapping ability - he's authentic.

What was that line the great Nas once said about dealing with emotions like bitches?

If you can't hear the politics on the new album, I don't know what to say. But not only is it political, it's unbelievably personal and honest.

Well thats wonderful y'know, i commend that but why is that on it's own a good thing? That it's personal and honest, OK, those can be good traits but I've not denied that it's personal or honest, it may or may not be, the question is why the fuck do i wanna listen to HIM being personal and honest, what does he have to say to me, what is there, what kinda shit is he gonna say thats gonna speak to me? 'loving you is hard' and 'peer pressure', I'm a grown fuckin' man, i don't need to hear that shit, the shit does not speak to me and i don't need to be preached at quite frankly.

Y'know what the brilliant thing about hip hop was once upon a time? It was direct, it wasn't some fuckin' guys personal rant diary for you to decipher, nor would anyone particularly have cared to do so, it's all just lite, it's diet.

It's honest in the fact that while he is speaking this pro black politics, he refuses to admit he knows everything, or that his experience represents all black experience.

Refuses to admit he knows everything? I shudder to think what that means. As far as refusing to admit his experience represents all black experience, OK, thats very gracious of him...but did i need telling that? Was that news to you? When you heard that shit were you like 'damn, y'know, OK, cool, thats a different perspective'. I don't need to see two sides of an argument clearly presented to me just so some kid can show me how smart he is. Also, there's this really really REALLY insipid thing going on of where people are like, and I've heard this before 'oh isn't he so smart? look at him there, seeing both sides of the argument, they don't usually do that, do they? Well it goes to show ya, they're evolving', i don't wanna hear that shit. Kind of like that Colin Powell routine by Chris Rock 'he speaks so well!' It's patronising, i don't wanna hear no hip hop hippy.

and if you can't respect it, you haven't listened.

Maybe you're hearing things.

Just because there isn't a defined position doesn't mean it's not political

Not necessarily no. But it could potentially mean it's wishy washy.

It's just honest that he doesn't pretend to know the solutions. He's representing his experience.

No he doesn't, he touches on a broad range of things with that pro black, for want of a better phrase, stuff, he's not talking only about his experience with that matierial. And thats the point, he does all the groundwork and all putting together, pointing to this and this and this from that experience and the third experience then getting right the fuckin' way to the ribbon and then stopping short of busting it and just standing there. Were he just representing his experience it'd be something different, but he's not, he's pontificating (in the best sense of the word, don't take that as an insult) but the trouble is when you pontificate people expect you to say some shit. It's bullshit grandstanding, you growl and grunt and touch upon on this substantial topics like you're getting fierce, like you're about to drop something on us...and in the end there's nothing.

And y'know which bit actually annoys me, the 'he's thought more than any rapper before', i could stick my head in the toilet and pull the chain over that shit, i can't believe i read that, i really can't. I'd be interested to know if the person who said that thinks there are any rock stars who have thought further. Have you any idea how patronising a comment that is, so just because some fuckin' young black kid reaches the idea of like, y'know, it's a bit of everyones fault so lets work together and fix this shit...that was the big thing dropped at the ending right *gasp* we're at fault too, we shoot at other black people, thats Kendrick hitting upon this huge thing that no other rapper ever touched on right? And this means he's thought more than any that came before him. Ever hear of the Stop the Violence campaign, which rapper WASN'T saying black on black crime is fucked up, why is this suddenly exemplifying how Kendrick is this kinda of far reaching intellectual titan. This is what i mean about tired, non commital and not saying nothing.

There's a real implied lack of respect for the intelligence of rappers going on here. And y'know what, when the smoke clears and all the bluster and hype falls by the way side you're gonna see what I'm talking about here, when he ain't the hot new thing and you just listen to the shit for what it's worth and you willing Kendrick over the finish line because you're so desperate for there to be a legend rapper out there thats contemporary, then you'll see what I mean. Or perhaps you won't, perhaps Kendrick is gonna occupy a really unique niche in hip hop history. See what i did there, good weren't it, very Kendrick like, very diplomatic Profundity for the Starbucks generation is the recognising that there is a historical context to your existing. Self-ccentric humanism.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Len B'stard

[magisme]

Preach, brother.

[Len Cnut]

To condense it right the fuck down, it's not profound, it's not original, it's not a singular perspective, it's classroom textbook morality, it's essay art, showing how well you understand an overall climate, why should i care about that?

[magisme]

I rather like the extended Lenny version.

[Len Cnut]

If Kendrick was saying anything of any worth, anything to upset any kind of power structure, anything politically substantial to where it effects (or rather concerns the money men that it COULD effect) anything then you wouldn't be hearing it like you are. I mean i saw this kid on a TV commercial the other day, thats how politically insubstantial he is. Try getting KRS back in the day some corporate sponsorship. Or Tupac. 'This album has no place in our society' Dan Quayle on 2Pacalypse Now, my fuckin' heart bounced out of my chest and fell at Tupacs feet irretrievably once i heard that shit 'no place in our society', wow, you live for moments like that. This is not that. You are being sold something and it looks shiny and pretty and new but it's old and its cheap.

[magisme]

We're caught up in this cultural moment when the dominant classes believe they've evolved, due to a crude and ignorant Scientism/Darwinism that understands neither science nor Darwin (but that for another discussion), so they think they can recognize, appreciate and laud subversive and/or intellectual work from the very perspective of privilege and dominance. They can do this because there's nothing truly subversive or intellectual or, God forbid, revolutionary there. There's no threat. IMO great art should be threatening. That's not all it should be, but there's something undeniably violent about true creativity. Kendrick, on the other hand, fits right into the smoothly functioning machine. I wouldn't lose a beat if I walked into Walmart or Starbucks and heard Kendrick on the speakers.

Edited March 20, 2015 by magisme

[Len Cnut]

You're a fucking bastard Mags I go on and on and on and try and struggle to explain myself and fill my shit with a 1,000 analogies trying to make totally clear what I'm saying and then you drop one fuckin' paragraph saying everything i was trying to say 100 times better and more concise using exactly the right words and framing its sociological context perfectly, i hate you But no, totally 100% agree, that there is what I'm trying to say in my haphazard way. Truly, Dirty forsees that which everyone else does not forsee

Edited March 20, 2015 by Len B'stard

[J Dog]

Hold on, I have to interrupt the Kendrick talk for a second.

Real quick on Slim Shady. That dude is at the point in his career where he can do whatever he wants to. Plain and simple. He's 40 and still relevant and still selling records. Recovery is his big pop album for sure. I don't like it. I don't even fuck with it anymore, but he can make Recovery part 2 if he wants to. He's earned it. And he can still freestyle with the best of them. Relapse, MMLP 2, Bad Meets Evil are all damn good. And that's just touching on the second half of his career. Em's legacy is straight. He's proved plenty of times that he can hang with anybody and his name should be up there with the best of them. Leave that white boy alone.

Now back to Kendrick. To me he's ok. He's got the skills, and he tries. A little too soft imo, but I'll take him over the majority of rap out there right now. And, even though I like Butterfly, I see what some are saying about it, negatively. I disagree that this is the album college boys needed to hear. I honestly think they needed to hear Strictly 4 My N.I.G.G.A.Z or Death Certificate or It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back. That shit got the white man's attention, got the black man up in arms, Butterfly isn't. Pretty good album though.

[Len Cnut]

I think a song like C.R.E.A.M by the Wu goes a million miles further in achieving what the Blacker the Berry is getting at without it even being the primary topic upon which it's based. The clear distinction is that, just by listening to the albums, you get the distinct impression that Kendrick is talking about stuff that doesn't really have an immediate direct bearing on his life, as evidenced by the fact that he has the breadth there to muse about it. A pressing plight of some kind of immediacy does not allow you that breadth, this is why a lot of early social commentary in rap doesn't deal with morality, because they have an immediate pressing issue that requires action. 'we can't just get by no more, we got to get over'. When its a matter of life or death then morality and theorising about it kinda takes a back seat. Don't mean to say the people that did that shit were ignorant, it's just they are talking about a reality they were confronted with and Kendrick apparently isn't.

[TeeJay410]

Oh my god Jesus Christ. He has a fucking song called "king kunta," and calls himself a "proud monkey" on "the blacker the berry". He interviews 2pac on the final track! The entire album musically is inspired by the 90's west coast g funk and the neo soul of d'angelo and lauryn hill. If it is wishy washy, then it is because it's acknowledging everything is more complicated than we would like it to be. Obviously your mind isn't going to be changed, but it is not fair to say Kendrick Lamar is soft or really anything like mainstream rappers today. You listen to Drake or Big Sean's album, and then listen to "To Pimp a Butterfly," and you're basically listening to two different genres.

And the reason an album like this can be so successful despite its radicalism? Look no further than NWA. Particularly Dr. Dre. Kendrick is signed to Aftermath, and this album was executive produced by Dre. A Dre co-sign in the industry will get you pretty damn far. Look at Marshall. Or 50. Or Snoop. Or Cube. The list goes on.

I'm aware of the danger of falling into the hyperbole of the times, but 5-10 years from now, this album will be regarded as a landmark in hip hop. It's the first album to directly address the specific issues of race in this 2015 generation, inspired by trayvon martin, eric garner, and ferguson. If it isn't and this forum is still here, I welcome everyone to bump this thread and give me hell.

[J Dog]

Even though I agree with most of what Len and Mags are saying, this is why I still feel the need to defend Kendrick some. Here we are, putting all this on the shoulders of one guy. This is a seriously sad fucking time for hip hop. When the LA riots broke out, and when all the injustice on the streets first started making news, everyone, and I mean everyone, Pac, Ice Cube, Dre and Snoop, Too Short, Nas, Public Enemy, KRS-One, Scarface, everybody went in on that shit. Everybody was pissed off. Some great, socially charged music came out of that. If this shit with Ferguson and Trayvon had happened when those dudes were around, damn they would have went off. That's the type of stuff rap was built around. What do we get now? One sensitive guy's point of view. That's it. I hear crickets chirping from the rest of hip hop. That is sad.

[Len Cnut]

Oh my god Jesus Christ. He has a fucking song called "king kunta," and calls himself a "proud monkey" on "the blacker the berry". He interviews 2pac on the final track! The entire album musically is inspired by the 90's west coast g funk and the neo soul of d'angelo and lauryn hill.

So?

If it is wishy washy, then it is because it's acknowledging everything is more complicated than we would like it to be.

Thats not really my problem though is it? And why does everything require acknowledging, what is the value in that?

And the reason an album like this can be so successful despite its radicalism? Look no further than NWA. Particularly Dr. Dre. Kendrick is signed to Aftermath, and this album was executive produced by Dre. A Dre co-sign in the industry will get you pretty damn far. Look at Marshall. Or 50. Or Snoop. Or Cube. The list goes on.

First of all it's not in the least bit radical and if you can explain to me how i would be most impressed. Also, i don't consider Marshall or 50 or Snoop to be radical. And Ice Cube didn't get on because of a Dre co-sign. And for as long as Cube was radical he was always a little on the out skirts with his solo stuff. Are We There Yet came a fair bit later It might be musically a little radical, even thats bullshit really, why cuz it has jazz elements musically? So does Illmatic, so does some of Rakims stuff.

but 5-10 years from now, this album will be regarded as a landmark in hip hop. It's the first album to directly address the specific issues of race in this 2015 generation, inspired by trayvon martin, eric garner, and ferguson.

Addressing it alone is not enough, you gotta be saying something substantial.

Pac, Ice Cube, Dre and Snoop, Too Short, Nas, Public Enemy, KRS-One, Scarface, everybody went in on that shit. Everybody was pissed off.

Yeah and y'know why? Cuz it actually effected them, they were close to it, it was regarding them. And not only that but they had been telling you about this stuff and then it actually happened, such was the level of their involvement. Kendrick offers exactly zero insight, you could come to those same conclusions from all the way over here in England watching CNN, i don't hear anything there, i don't see how personal involvement or relativity to the instances at hand colour what he is presenting us...cuz they don't.

It weren't just cuz those guys were nutbags that they had these extreme perspectives and cuz Kendrick is a wise old sage in a young mans body that his response is so 'cum-ba-ya', they were in the mix, thats why their reactions and conclusions were strong, Kendrick doesn't offer any conclusions or any emotive response that come across as informed by his being related to the troubles.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Len B'stard

[magisme]

Even though I agree with most of what Len and Mags are saying, this is why I still feel the need to defend Kendrick some. Here we are, putting all this on the shoulders of one guy. This is a seriously sad fucking time for hip hop. When the LA riots broke out, and when all the injustice on the streets first started making news, everyone, and I mean everyone, Pac, Ice Cube, Dre and Snoop, Too Short, Nas, Public Enemy, KRS-One, Scarface, everybody went in on that shit. Everybody was pissed off. Some great, socially charged music came out of that. If this shit with Ferguson and Trayvon had happened when those dudes were around, damn they would have went off. That's the type of stuff rap was built around. What do we get now? One sensitive guy's point of view. That's it. I hear crickets chirping from the rest of hip hop. That is sad.

I don't want to put anything on Kendrick's shoulders. My argument is precisely that he's not that guy, at all. Refusing to canonize him is not attacking him.

[TeeJay410]

"I'm African-American, I'm African

I'm black as the moon, heritage of a small village

Pardon my residence

Came from the bottom of mankind

My hair is nappy, my dick is big, my nose is round and wide

You hate me don't you?

You hate my people, your plan is to terminate my culture

You're fuckin' evil I want you to recognize that I'm a proud monkey

You vandalize my perception but can't take style from me

And this is more than confession

I mean I might press the button just so you know my discretion

I'm guardin' my feelins, I know that you feel it

You sabotage my community, makin' a killin'

You made me a killer, emancipation of a real hooray for tolerance!"

He might not be kill whitey radical, but this is from a track called blacker the berry. Can you see Drake or Big Sean or Tyga saying *anything* like this?

And if you want to talk about sensitive rappers, 2Pac's me against the world is an extremely sensitive and personal work. There are no bangers on that album. Sensitive isn't a fair word in the way it's being used here, to imply that Kendrick is soft. The word is passionate.

[Len Cnut]

"I'm African-American, I'm African

I'm black as the moon, heritage of a small village

Pardon my residence

Came from the bottom of mankind

My hair is nappy, my dick is big, my nose is round and wide

You hate me don't you?

You hate my people, your plan is to terminate my culture

You're fuckin' evil I want you to recognize that I'm a proud monkey

You vandalize my perception but can't take style from me

And this is more than confession

I mean I might press the button just so you know my discretion

I'm guardin' my feelins, I know that you feel it

You sabotage my community, makin' a killin'

You made me a killer, emancipation of a real hooray for tolerance!"

He might not be kill whitey radical, but this is from a track called blacker the berry. Can you see Drake or Big Sean or Tyga saying *anything* like this?

He's just basically saying he's proud to be black? 'Vandalise my perception' is the only thing even approaching any kind of insight...and it's just left at that but it's basically just bog standard racial affirmation. It just strikes me as pretty standard. I think yous guys are so starved for content that someones thrown you a bone and you think its a banquet cuz you're so starving.

And if you want to talk about sensitive rappers, 2Pac's me against the world is an extremely sensitive and personal work.

I respect sensitivity but for arguments sake:

If I Die 2nite

Fuck the World

Heavy in the Game

Death Around the Corner

Outlaw

[J Dog]

Pac, Ice Cube, Dre and Snoop, Too Short, Nas, Public Enemy, KRS-One, Scarface, everybody went in on that shit. Everybody was pissed off.

Yeah and y'know why?

Hell yeah I know why

Even though I agree with most of what Len and Mags are saying, this is why I still feel the need to defend Kendrick some. Here we are, putting all this on the shoulders of one guy. This is a seriously sad fucking time for hip hop. When the LA riots broke out, and when all the injustice on the streets first started making news, everyone, and I mean everyone, Pac, Ice Cube, Dre and Snoop, Too Short, Nas, Public Enemy, KRS-One, Scarface, everybody went in on that shit. Everybody was pissed off. Some great, socially charged music came out of that. If this shit with Ferguson and Trayvon had happened when those dudes were around, damn they would have went off. That's the type of stuff rap was built around. What do we get now? One sensitive guy's point of view. That's it. I hear crickets chirping from the rest of hip hop. That is sad.

I don't want to put anything on Kendrick's shoulders. My argument is precisely that he's not that guy, at all. Refusing to canonize him is not attacking him.

I'm with you. I was really just trying to take a shot at the rap scene in general there.

And if you want to talk about sensitive rappers, 2Pac's me against the world is an extremely sensitive and personal work. There are no bangers on that album. Sensitive isn't a fair word in the way it's being used here, to imply that Kendrick is soft. The word is passionate.

I don't know, Me Against the World really isn't the right Pac album to compare with TPAB. I would say 2Pacalypse Now or Striclty 4 My N'z would be a better comparison.

[CheapJon]

I was gonna go post how you guys were fucking nerds who cared way too much about entertainment. Then it hit me that I was posting on a forum dedicated to a rock band that used to be good. Jokes on me.

TPAB has grown on me but the Tupac part is as cringeworthy as a Dj Ashba solo. Some good songs and I'll give it more chances when I've gotten tired of B4.DA.$$.

I think a song like C.R.E.A.M by the Wu goes a million miles further in achieving what the Blacker the Berry is getting at without it even being the primary topic upon which it's based. The clear distinction is that, just by listening to the albums, you get the distinct impression that Kendrick is talking about stuff that doesn't really have an immediate direct bearing on his life, as evidenced by the fact that he has the breadth there to muse about it. A pressing plight of some kind of immediacy does not allow you that breadth, this is why a lot of early social commentary in rap doesn't deal with morality, because they have an immediate pressing issue that requires action. 'we can't just get by no more, we got to get over'. When its a matter of life or death then morality and theorising about it kinda takes a back seat. Don't mean to say the people that did that shit were ignorant, it's just they are talking about a reality they were confronted with and Kendrick apparently isn't.

Speaking of CREAM. What do you think of this song? (CREAM references incoming)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSlNvg18MKc

[Len Cnut]

I wanna listen to him actually, heard good things.

EDIT: That was sick Cheapo, thank you! At the beginning when its all talkey i was like fuck, not another rattler...but then when the beat kicked in the boy really got to rollin', that was really good, whats his album called?

And entertainment is really important to me man, its the one part of my life thats 100% mine, i work almost 60 hours a week and entertainment is my me thing, invaluable to me, especially music, keeps me sane, cant live without it, i wake to music, i lounge to music, i drive to music, its the one thing in my life that is totally mine and not something to where someone elses input or needs factor in.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Len B'stard

[CheapJon]

Album's called B4.DA.$$ (before the money). And yeah, I realized how ignorant and a stupid it would be to belittle the discussions you were having.

Edited March 20, 2015 by CheapJon

[Len Cnut]

At first look i read before da ass

[CheapJon]

Appearantly Action Bronson's album has leaked.

[Len Cnut]

That guy sounds so much like Ghost its untrue. I like him.

[CheapJon]

I was showing the Easy Rider video to some friends

"Cheap, this is awesome but what's up with that white fat fuck?"

"That's the guy, that's Action Bronson"

"What? he sounds black"