What is the most underrated Stones record?

[Len Cnut]

8 minutes ago, Fashionista said:

And? What did you think? I personally feel as an album it's got too much killer, but if you trimmed it down to an EP it'd rock:

1) One Hit to the Body, classic mean Stones 
2) Winning Ugly
3) Back To Zero

4) Dirty Work 
5) Sleep Tonight

This is the Stones' album Mick had the least to do with. At this point in his life, being a Stone was his boring day job. He actually wrote the band a note in this period saying they were old and he didn't need them anymore. He was focusing on his solo career. Most of the music was composed by Keith and Ronnie Wood, and Mick just layed a vocal over it. Keith felt pissed because he felt he gave his better writing to his solo record which came out the same year.

It was only a first listen so I can't say much.  Sounded a bit...whats the word?  I dunno, conventional.  Not necessarily in a bad way.  Sounded very big, very made-for-MTV.  The vocals seem quite big, quite forward in the production.  I'm gonna give it a few more listens. 

[Fashionista]

1 hour ago, Len Cnut said:

It was only a first listen so I can't say much.  Sounded a bit...whats the word?  I dunno, conventional.  Not necessarily in a bad way.  Sounded very big, very made-for-MTV.  The vocals seem quite big, quite forward in the production.  I'm gonna give it a few more listens. 

By the way, check this out, a little stuff from the old days:

This is when they were a band. But Mick was always so calculated and press friendly. 

Edited September 24, 2018 by Fashionista

[Len Cnut]

22 minutes ago, Fashionista said:

By the way, check this out, a little stuff from the old days:

This is when they were a band. But Mick was always so calculated and press friendly. 

I’ve seen that somewhere, in some documentary or other.  I’ve seen a shitload of Stones docus, way before back when I’d only heard a handful of their albums, I’m talking over fifteen years back, Rock n Roll Circus, Hyde Park, Charlie Is My Darling, Cocksucker Blues, some Live at IMAX thing, all sorts of em, even the newer stuffs, Shine A Light...every documentary listed on their website.

[Len Cnut]

Listened to Dirty Work again.  Its not awful or anything, just seems weird, a bit stiff, a bit flat, I can't figure out why.  It doesn't bounce like The Stones do, some of the songs its there, its better than the others but it seems almost to have this sort of Phil Collins-esque 'big-ness' to it which is at the expense of their natural sense of groove. 

[DieselDaisy]

I believe the word you are looking for is ''wank''. 

[Len Cnut]

I've since discovered that Charlie Watts ain't on a fair bit of it as he was having some troubles at the time, that sort of explains things. 

[Fashionista]

On 9/26/2018 at 4:20 AM, Len Cnut said:

I've since discovered that Charlie Watts ain't on a fair bit of it as he was having some troubles at the time, that sort of explains things. 

Severe alcoholism. The whole band was in terrible shape, physically, except Mick. Keith was using smack again, Bill was fucking a 12 year old girl, Charlie was at his worst in terms of drinking, and Ronnie was freebasing coke. I believe Mick said of this period, that they couldn't run the Champs-Elysees, much less tour. Mick and Keith were barely speaking.

This is a very rare video of them in this period, 86, and they all look rather terrible.

[Len Cnut]

14 minutes ago, Fashionista said:

Severe alcoholism. The whole band was in terrible shape, physically, except Mick. Keith was using smack again, Charlie was at his worst in terms of drinking, and Ronnie was freebasing coke. 

 

Sounds great fun to be fair!

[DieselDaisy]

Charlie Watts developed a heroin habit in the 1980s, just after that notorious reprobate Keith had sobered up (well, sort of - you're never quite sure with Keef, are you?). 

 

[Len Cnut]

16 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Charlie Watts developed a heroin habit in the 1980s, just after that notorious reprobate Keith had sobered up (well, sort of - you're never quite sure with Keef, are you?). 

 

Does stopping taking skag and keeping on with the coke, booze and weed count as sobering up?

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, Len Cnut said:

Does stopping taking skag and keeping on with the coke, booze and weed count as sobering up?

Guns N' Roses are real lightweights compared to The Stones. Typical yanks really. Couldn't handle it. 

[Len Cnut]

10 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Guns N' Roses are real lightweights compared to The Stones. Typical yanks really. Couldn't handle it. 

You could actually learn a lesson about how to do drugs from Keith, a very valuable one.  He talks about it in his book and I suppose it doesn't make sense unless you've tried drugs but then in a way it might I suppose cuz you drink a bit but its a little different.  He says something like, and its totally true, that after a certain amount, you don't get any higher.  For instance, taking one hit on acid and taking three don't really make a lot of difference in the effect on your high.  You might be tripping longer but thats about it.  Same with coke, do a couple of lines and you're good, do a gram, or two, or three and you hit a certain level and thats it, after that you're just shoving the shit up your nose and chasing a heart attack.  Same with drinking, after a certain point you ain't gonna get more pissed, you're gonna sign off.  I understand that tolerance levels go up etc but that doesn't really effect like...the peak of the high.  Same with weed, there is really no point in smoking like half an ounce a day (which is a tall ask for your average anyway) cuz you don't get any higher really, the buzz will wear off in roughly the same amount of time.  I think, more than anything, Keith was just level-headed with it, a lot more than people believe.  Heroins a different beast but even that can be managed, at least to a point.  In those days I think they just had a kind of bohemian set up going on where, y'know, 'wait til Keith wakes' wasn't an odd thing.  But thats beside the point, you've just got to be judicious with these things.  Also, you space these things out.  Coupled with performing, which sweats a lot of shit out of your system, and also these guys are fuckin' minted, the reason so many junkies fuckin' systems collapse or whatever is because they don't have fuckin' good food to eat.  I mean when you're fuckin' begging for coins to go out and get a bag that evening you're probably not getting a three course meal chucked in anywhere. 

I think a lot of these rockstars look up to Keith and the like because of some sort of imagined notion of him just being fucked ALL the time, like pure hammered but I'm not sure it was like that.  Not that he didn't do a mammoth amount, I'm sure he did but at the same time there was a helluva lot of work going on for him to be utterly off his tits the whole time.  I don't think it was ever about misery and despair for Keith like it is for a lot of famous addicts like Sid Vicious or Kurt Cobain.  As for Guns, apart from clearly not having Keiths judicious approach also you get the feeling working with someone like an Axl means a lot of fuckin' downtime too, which is never good for people with such personalities.  But yeah, I don't think Keiths a silly boy, he knows how to look after himself.

[Towelie]

I'm by no means a Stones aficionado, but I always thought A Bigger Bang was a pretty good record. Rough Justice is a great album opener, with one of their best opening lines in any Stones song ever. "Once upon a time you were my little rooster, now you've grown into a fox / Once upon a time I was your little chicken, now I'm just one of your cocks."

[DieselDaisy]

13 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

You could actually learn a lesson about how to do drugs from Keith, a very valuable one.  He talks about it in his book and I suppose it doesn't make sense unless you've tried drugs but then in a way it might I suppose cuz you drink a bit but its a little different.  He says something like, and its totally true, that after a certain amount, you don't get any higher.  For instance, taking one hit on acid and taking three don't really make a lot of difference in the effect on your high.  You might be tripping longer but thats about it.  Same with coke, do a couple of lines and you're good, do a gram, or two, or three and you hit a certain level and thats it, after that you're just shoving the shit up your nose and chasing a heart attack.  Same with drinking, after a certain point you ain't gonna get more pissed, you're gonna sign off.  I understand that tolerance levels go up etc but that doesn't really effect like...the peak of the high.  Same with weed, there is really no point in smoking like half an ounce a day (which is a tall ask for your average anyway) cuz you don't get any higher really, the buzz will wear off in roughly the same amount of time.  I think, more than anything, Keith was just level-headed with it, a lot more than people believe.  Heroins a different beast but even that can be managed, at least to a point.  In those days I think they just had a kind of bohemian set up going on where, y'know, 'wait til Keith wakes' wasn't an odd thing.  But thats beside the point, you've just got to be judicious with these things.  Also, you space these things out.  Coupled with performing, which sweats a lot of shit out of your system, and also these guys are fuckin' minted, the reason so many junkies fuckin' systems collapse or whatever is because they don't have fuckin' good food to eat.  I mean when you're fuckin' begging for coins to go out and get a bag that evening you're probably not getting a three course meal chucked in anywhere. 

I think a lot of these rockstars look up to Keith and the like because of some sort of imagined notion of him just being fucked ALL the time, like pure hammered but I'm not sure it was like that.  Not that he didn't do a mammoth amount, I'm sure he did but at the same time there was a helluva lot of work going on for him to be utterly off his tits the whole time.  I don't think it was ever about misery and despair for Keith like it is for a lot of famous addicts like Sid Vicious or Kurt Cobain.  As for Guns, apart from clearly not having Keiths judicious approach also you get the feeling working with someone like an Axl means a lot of fuckin' downtime too, which is never good for people with such personalities.  But yeah, I don't think Keiths a silly boy, he knows how to look after himself.

As he said, when he was on junk he learnt how to ski and made Exile.

[Fashionista]

On 9/28/2018 at 5:44 AM, Len Cnut said:

You could actually learn a lesson about how to do drugs from Keith, a very valuable one.  He talks about it in his book and I suppose it doesn't make sense unless you've tried drugs but then in a way it might I suppose cuz you drink a bit but its a little different.  He says something like, and its totally true, that after a certain amount, you don't get any higher.  For instance, taking one hit on acid and taking three don't really make a lot of difference in the effect on your high.  You might be tripping longer but thats about it.  Same with coke, do a couple of lines and you're good, do a gram, or two, or three and you hit a certain level and thats it, after that you're just shoving the shit up your nose and chasing a heart attack.  Same with drinking, after a certain point you ain't gonna get more pissed, you're gonna sign off.  I understand that tolerance levels go up etc but that doesn't really effect like...the peak of the high.  Same with weed, there is really no point in smoking like half an ounce a day (which is a tall ask for your average anyway) cuz you don't get any higher really, the buzz will wear off in roughly the same amount of time.  I think, more than anything, Keith was just level-headed with it, a lot more than people believe.  Heroins a different beast but even that can be managed, at least to a point.  In those days I think they just had a kind of bohemian set up going on where, y'know, 'wait til Keith wakes' wasn't an odd thing.  But thats beside the point, you've just got to be judicious with these things.  Also, you space these things out.  Coupled with performing, which sweats a lot of shit out of your system, and also these guys are fuckin' minted, the reason so many junkies fuckin' systems collapse or whatever is because they don't have fuckin' good food to eat.  I mean when you're fuckin' begging for coins to go out and get a bag that evening you're probably not getting a three course meal chucked in anywhere. 

I think a lot of these rockstars look up to Keith and the like because of some sort of imagined notion of him just being fucked ALL the time, like pure hammered but I'm not sure it was like that.  Not that he didn't do a mammoth amount, I'm sure he did but at the same time there was a helluva lot of work going on for him to be utterly off his tits the whole time.  I don't think it was ever about misery and despair for Keith like it is for a lot of famous addicts like Sid Vicious or Kurt Cobain.  As for Guns, apart from clearly not having Keiths judicious approach also you get the feeling working with someone like an Axl means a lot of fuckin' downtime too, which is never good for people with such personalities.  But yeah, I don't think Keiths a silly boy, he knows how to look after himself.

The peak for Keith, I mean the peak of the low, was during the Goat's Head Soup sessions. He's actually not on most of that record on guitar because he would be missing for days on end or turn up to the studio high and unable to function. He handles mostly bass parts or basic rhythm parts on that record (Bill Wyman's wife was raped in Jamaica and he was in court, so he only plays on like one or three songs). I mean his major contributions to it are Star Star and Angie, which really are basic guitar playing with Mick helping a lot with the songwriting (Mick has said Keith didn't write a single complete song by himself between Happy, on Exile, and Before They Make Me Run on Some Girls). In 1973, people in and around the Stones were thinking Keith was becoming how Brian was toward the end and Mick began actively cultivating a relationship with Mick Taylor just in case Keith needed the boot. Similarly, when Keith was busted in 1977, and it wasn't clear if he'd be going to jail or not, Mick had Taylor's number essentially on speed dial, ready to continue the Stones without Keith if need be. During the 1981 tour, George Thoroughgood was on standby. Ronnie Wood was HEAVILY doing coke and it was to the point he was becoming a liability. He was basically told show up high one more time and you're fired - and they had George waiting in the wings ready to replace him.

Going back further, in 1969, it was actually really uncertain whether the Stones would break up. Mick and Keith weren't talking because of the whole Anita debacle, Brian had lost all interest in the band, Bill was sick of the toxic atmosphere. Mick began focusing on his film career (he wrote Brown Sugar - the words, the music, the entirety of the song) by himself in preparation for a solo career (Memo from Turner had shown him he didn't really need Keith to make a great song). Meanwhile, Keith was so bitter he wrote Gimme Shelter while Mick was in the studio fucking Anita. Brian turned up here and there for sessions and contributed one last memorable part - autoharp on You Got the Silver, which Keith wrote for Anita:

The autoharp comes in at 35 seconds and is on the left channel - the lightly strummed instrument. That's Brian's last contribution as a Stone, recorded in February 1969.

Things were so unclear that they even did a whole photoshoot for the upcoming tour on May 20th 1969, with Brian as the centerpiece of the shoot as he had been always:
 

Mick Taylor began playing with them on May 30th, and the Stones as a group and made a mutual agreement about Brian's exit on June 3rd. It's been painted as a firing, but it really was more like a breakup of a relationship gone sour - both parties wanted out. Brian was reportedly relieved and people around him said it was like a weight had been lifted off his shoulders. He had been wanting for a year but didn't actually wanna quit. He actually was gonna quit in 1967 but Mick Jagger convinced him to stay. The band didn't wanna sever their relationship with him because he was useful in the studio and was arguably with Mick the star of the band visually and in terms of the fans. The reason they separated wasn't drugs, or an inability to function, but mostly Brian being uninterested to contribute and also being unable to tour legally.

Edited September 29, 2018 by Fashionista

[Fashionista]

But yeah, Goat's Head Soup is the closest you'll get to a Stones record without Keith:

Dancing With Mr. D (no Keith - Mick Taylor on guitars and bass)
100 Years Ago (Mick Taylor on guitar only, Keith plays bass)
Coming Down Again (Keith on guitars, Mick Taylor on bass)
Heartbreaker (Taylor on lead guitar, Richards on minor rhythm)
Angie (Taylor and Richards on guitars, Taylor on bass)
Silver Train (Taylor on all guitars, Keith on bass)
Hide Your Love (Taylor on all guitars, no Keith, Wyman on bass)
Winter (Taylor on lead guitar, Jagger on rhythm guitar, no Keith, Bill Wyman on bass)
Can You Hear the Music (Taylor on guitars, no Keith)

Star Star (guitars by Richards and Taylor, bass by Keith)

Edited September 29, 2018 by Fashionista

[wasted]

Does anyone rate Steel Wheels?

[Len Cnut]

I've not listened to it yet, heard Dirty Work and just stopped there, not cuz its so shit I don't wanna listen to any more stuff its just I'd kinda listened to a shitload of Stones all that once and I don't just wanna go through it all systematically, I wanna enjoy that shit too so I'm kinda just listening to all their pre Dirty Work stuff over and over.

[wasted]

2 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

I've not listened to it yet, heard Dirty Work and just stopped there, not cuz its so shit I don't wanna listen to any more stuff its just I'd kinda listened to a shitload of Stones all that once and I don't just wanna go through it all systematically, I wanna enjoy that shit too so I'm kinda just listening to all their pre Dirty Work stuff over and over.

Voodoo Lounge is a classic, Bridges is pretty good. 

Steel Wheels just left me a bit cold.  It’s still decent.

[DieselDaisy]

Steel Wheels onwards is the best era for ''Keith numbers'', ''Slipping Away'', ''Thru and Thru'', ''The Worst'', etc. 

[wasted]

4 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Steel Wheels onwards is the best era for ''Keith numbers'', ''Slipping Away'', ''Thru and Thru'', ''The Worst'', etc. 

Voodoo is the Exile of the 90s. 

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, wasted said:

Voodoo is the Exile of the 90s. 

I wouldn't go that far! I'd struggle to call it ''a Black and Blue, or Its Only Rock and Roll for the 90s'' to be honest. But I do like it: it was the first Stones album which sounds like the Stones in quite some time - they were discovering their quintessence, putting the Phil Collins era behind them.

[wasted]

32 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I wouldn't go that far! I'd struggle to call it ''a Black and Blue, or Its Only Rock and Roll for the 90s'' to be honest. But I do like it: it was the first Stones album which sounds like the Stones in quite some time - they were discovering their quintessence, putting the Phil Collins era behind them.

But what other rock albums of the 90s have that kind of swaggering scope. The Illusions are more Grafiti all over the place. 

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, wasted said:

But what other rock albums of the 90s have that kind of swaggering scope. The Illusions are more Grafiti all over the place. 

Well as I said, I do like it - Babylon also. It is just when you cite an album as truly sublime as Exile you are setting the bar rather too high for a ''middle-aged spread'' record as Voodoo, however good it may it be.

[wasted]

4 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Well as I said, I do like it - Babylon also. It is just when you cite an album as truly sublime as Exile you are setting the bar rather too high for a ''middle-aged spread'' record as Voodoo, however good it may it be.

But when you say 90s the standards drop considerably. That’s why you say of the 90s. 

I felt like it’s their best stadium era album. It’s better than the 90s Aerosmith albums. 

Edited October 8, 2018 by wasted