Should Axl give the new GNR members partial ownership in the GNR name?

[Sweden_Loves_GnR]

No

[Young_Gun]

Haha....not a chance. The GNR brand is all Axl has left. Don't believe me? Imagine if CD would have had a different name on the cover. Without a single,video or promotion? The thing would have sold like 5,000 copies (note to would be overly impulsive, angry Axl fans...I love CD).

Axl will never, ever....EVER allow his livelihood to slip through his fingers.

Bullshit. Axl Rose the name would sell just fine. He has like Ozzy status on his own.

Except that Ozzy had success on his own and didn't call himself Black Sabbath when he left. Other than that yeah they're exactly the same.

Tony continued with Black Sabbath for years with various revolving members. I'm sure Ozzy would have done the same if he could. Tony Iommi IS Black Sabbath IMO...

The difference between the Black Sabbath thing and the Guns N' Roses thing is Tony wrote MOST of the material, he was the main song writer and the founder, where Guns was a collaborative effort. Its like Dave Mustaine of Megadeth or Billy Corgan of Smashing Pumpkins, no one gives a fuck if the original members of those respective bands are gone, because the founders and main songwriters are still there. Different story with Guns.

[Vincent Vega]

Haha....not a chance. The GNR brand is all Axl has left. Don't believe me? Imagine if CD would have had a different name on the cover. Without a single,video or promotion? The thing would have sold like 5,000 copies (note to would be overly impulsive, angry Axl fans...I love CD).

Axl will never, ever....EVER allow his livelihood to slip through his fingers.

Bullshit. Axl Rose the name would sell just fine. He has like Ozzy status on his own.

Except that Ozzy had success on his own and didn't call himself Black Sabbath when he left. Other than that yeah they're exactly the same.

Tony continued with Black Sabbath for years with various revolving members. I'm sure Ozzy would have done the same if he could. Tony Iommi IS Black Sabbath IMO...

The difference between the Black Sabbath thing and the Guns N' Roses thing is Tony wrote MOST of the material, he was the main song writer and the founder, where Guns was a collaborative effort. Its like Dave Mustaine of Megadeth or Billy Corgan of Smashing Pumpkins, no one gives a fuck if the original members of those respective bands are gone, because the founders and main songwriters are still there. Different story with Guns.

Difference is, Black Sabbath had a stable lineup for ten years prior to Ozzy being fired (1969-1979/1980).

GN'R only had FIVE years with a single lineup (1985-1990). After 1990, Guns was a revolving door. By 1992 the original rhythm section of the band was basically gone.

And it's not like the break up happened suddenly. Izzy left in '91, Slash didn't leave until '96, Duff quit in August '97. It wasn't like they all walked out one day and left Axl and he decided to carry on. It was an evolution, a gradual slow shift. And I personally accept it. For me, while Slash is cool, the main draw for me with Guns has always been Axl, and that's why I've accepted the various iterations as Guns N' Roses. I do wish Izzy would write with him again, though.

It's kind of hypocritical how some afford guys like Matt and Gilby the status of basically being Gunners, but call Paul Huge, Dizzy Reed and everyone after Slash left "hired guns." It's kind of inconsistent.

If we're using "was he in Guns at the same time as Saul Hudson?" as the standard for who is a Gunner and who is a hired Gun, then Dizzy, Paul and Gilby are Gunners.

I mean in 1997, you had:

Axl

Robin

Paul

Duff

Matt

Dizzy

Was that not Guns? It had Axl, Duff and Matt in the band.

Edited December 26, 2010 by Indigo Child

[Young_Gun]

Haha....not a chance. The GNR brand is all Axl has left. Don't believe me? Imagine if CD would have had a different name on the cover. Without a single,video or promotion? The thing would have sold like 5,000 copies (note to would be overly impulsive, angry Axl fans...I love CD).

Axl will never, ever....EVER allow his livelihood to slip through his fingers.

Bullshit. Axl Rose the name would sell just fine. He has like Ozzy status on his own.

Except that Ozzy had success on his own and didn't call himself Black Sabbath when he left. Other than that yeah they're exactly the same.

Tony continued with Black Sabbath for years with various revolving members. I'm sure Ozzy would have done the same if he could. Tony Iommi IS Black Sabbath IMO...

The difference between the Black Sabbath thing and the Guns N' Roses thing is Tony wrote MOST of the material, he was the main song writer and the founder, where Guns was a collaborative effort. Its like Dave Mustaine of Megadeth or Billy Corgan of Smashing Pumpkins, no one gives a fuck if the original members of those respective bands are gone, because the founders and main songwriters are still there. Different story with Guns.

Difference is, Black Sabbath had a stable lineup for ten years prior to Ozzy being fired (1969-1979/1980).

GN'R only had FIVE years with a single lineup (1985-1990).

Oh yeh, that totally negates the fact that Axl was never the main songwriter of the band, yep sure man, great logic.

Had Axl been the main songwriter who penned most of the lyrics AND composed the music, the whole GnR name wouldn't be even half as much of an issue today. Thats a fact. Want proof? The next incarnation of Black Sabbath was/is accepted much more openly due to Tony still being there. Had Ozzy had carried on with the name and different members, we would have almost EXACTLY the same situation as new-Guns have today.

Edited December 26, 2010 by Young_Gun

[Vincent Vega]

Haha....not a chance. The GNR brand is all Axl has left. Don't believe me? Imagine if CD would have had a different name on the cover. Without a single,video or promotion? The thing would have sold like 5,000 copies (note to would be overly impulsive, angry Axl fans...I love CD).

Axl will never, ever....EVER allow his livelihood to slip through his fingers.

Bullshit. Axl Rose the name would sell just fine. He has like Ozzy status on his own.

Except that Ozzy had success on his own and didn't call himself Black Sabbath when he left. Other than that yeah they're exactly the same.

Tony continued with Black Sabbath for years with various revolving members. I'm sure Ozzy would have done the same if he could. Tony Iommi IS Black Sabbath IMO...

The difference between the Black Sabbath thing and the Guns N' Roses thing is Tony wrote MOST of the material, he was the main song writer and the founder, where Guns was a collaborative effort. Its like Dave Mustaine of Megadeth or Billy Corgan of Smashing Pumpkins, no one gives a fuck if the original members of those respective bands are gone, because the founders and main songwriters are still there. Different story with Guns.

Difference is, Black Sabbath had a stable lineup for ten years prior to Ozzy being fired (1969-1979/1980).

GN'R only had FIVE years with a single lineup (1985-1990).

Oh yeh, that totally negates the fact that Axl was never the main songwriter of the band, yep sure man, great logic.

Had Axl been the main songwriter who penned most of the lyrics AND composed the music, the whole GnR name wouldn't be even half as much of an issue today. Thats a fact. Want proof? The next incarnation of Black Sabbath was/is accepted much more openly due to Tony still being there. Had Ozzy had carried on with the name and different members, we would have almost EXACTLY the same situation as new-Guns have today.

There's a quote somewhere, from the early '90s. The issue of songwriting credits came up, and Axl claimed that Slash had come up with a system of dividing the songwriting credits for the band. When everything was totalled, Axl's songwriting contributions to Guns amounted to 41%, with the rest being divided amongst the other 4. That's nearly half of all the contributions coming from one man, with the other 59% coming from FOUR other guys combined. Now, wouldn't the outspoken Slash who was calling Axl a "diva", and all sorts of other shit, have countered that if it wasn't true?

In fact, that quote might have come up from the Adler case in 1993, as Adler was going after the band for money and something to do with songwriting credits. Axl could've been charged with perjury had that system not been so if the quote does indeed come from the case.

Here it is:

“Slash devised a system of figuring out who wrote what parts of a song or part of a song. There were four categories, I believe. There was lyrics, melody, music - meaning guitars, bass and drums - and accompaniment and arrangement. And we split each one of those into twenty-five percent.” He concluded: “When we had finished, I had 41 percent, and other people had different amounts.”

Edited December 26, 2010 by Indigo Child

[Young_Gun]

Haha....not a chance. The GNR brand is all Axl has left. Don't believe me? Imagine if CD would have had a different name on the cover. Without a single,video or promotion? The thing would have sold like 5,000 copies (note to would be overly impulsive, angry Axl fans...I love CD).

Axl will never, ever....EVER allow his livelihood to slip through his fingers.

Bullshit. Axl Rose the name would sell just fine. He has like Ozzy status on his own.

Except that Ozzy had success on his own and didn't call himself Black Sabbath when he left. Other than that yeah they're exactly the same.

Tony continued with Black Sabbath for years with various revolving members. I'm sure Ozzy would have done the same if he could. Tony Iommi IS Black Sabbath IMO...

The difference between the Black Sabbath thing and the Guns N' Roses thing is Tony wrote MOST of the material, he was the main song writer and the founder, where Guns was a collaborative effort. Its like Dave Mustaine of Megadeth or Billy Corgan of Smashing Pumpkins, no one gives a fuck if the original members of those respective bands are gone, because the founders and main songwriters are still there. Different story with Guns.

Difference is, Black Sabbath had a stable lineup for ten years prior to Ozzy being fired (1969-1979/1980).

GN'R only had FIVE years with a single lineup (1985-1990).

Oh yeh, that totally negates the fact that Axl was never the main songwriter of the band, yep sure man, great logic.

Had Axl been the main songwriter who penned most of the lyrics AND composed the music, the whole GnR name wouldn't be even half as much of an issue today. Thats a fact. Want proof? The next incarnation of Black Sabbath was/is accepted much more openly due to Tony still being there. Had Ozzy had carried on with the name and different members, we would have almost EXACTLY the same situation as new-Guns have today.

There's a quote somewhere, from the early '90s. The issue of songwriting credits came up, and Axl claimed that Slash had come up with a system of dividing the songwriting credits for the band. When everything was totalled, Axl's songwriting contributions to Guns amounted to 41%, with the rest being divided amongst the other 4. That's nearly half of all the contributions coming from one man, with the other 59% coming from FOUR other guys combined. Now, wouldn't the outspoken Slash who was calling Axl a "diva", and all sorts of other shit, have countered that if it wasn't true?

In fact, that quote might have come up from the Adler case in 1993, as Adler was going after the band for money and something to do with songwriting credits. Axl could've been taken to court for perjury had that system not been so if the quote does indeed come from the case.

I'm aware of the quote, but even with that, Tony's input in Black Sabbath dwarfs Axl's supposed 41%. Im talking major portions here like Dave Mustaine of Megadeth, Trent Reznor of NIN, Billy Corgan of Smashing Pumpkins, Tony of Black Sabbath. Those guys wrote at least 80% of the stuff, hence why no one gives a fuck that they still carry on without the original members. Guns are a different story for that exact reason. Thats why people say "its not Guns N' Roses". No one ever says "thats not Smashing Pumpkins because Iha and Chamberlin aren't there". Each member of original GnR had their imprint in the sound, their own signiture, and now its been stripped 80%.

[Vincent Vega]

Haha....not a chance. The GNR brand is all Axl has left. Don't believe me? Imagine if CD would have had a different name on the cover. Without a single,video or promotion? The thing would have sold like 5,000 copies (note to would be overly impulsive, angry Axl fans...I love CD).

Axl will never, ever....EVER allow his livelihood to slip through his fingers.

Bullshit. Axl Rose the name would sell just fine. He has like Ozzy status on his own.

Except that Ozzy had success on his own and didn't call himself Black Sabbath when he left. Other than that yeah they're exactly the same.

Tony continued with Black Sabbath for years with various revolving members. I'm sure Ozzy would have done the same if he could. Tony Iommi IS Black Sabbath IMO...

The difference between the Black Sabbath thing and the Guns N' Roses thing is Tony wrote MOST of the material, he was the main song writer and the founder, where Guns was a collaborative effort. Its like Dave Mustaine of Megadeth or Billy Corgan of Smashing Pumpkins, no one gives a fuck if the original members of those respective bands are gone, because the founders and main songwriters are still there. Different story with Guns.

Difference is, Black Sabbath had a stable lineup for ten years prior to Ozzy being fired (1969-1979/1980).

GN'R only had FIVE years with a single lineup (1985-1990).

Oh yeh, that totally negates the fact that Axl was never the main songwriter of the band, yep sure man, great logic.

Had Axl been the main songwriter who penned most of the lyrics AND composed the music, the whole GnR name wouldn't be even half as much of an issue today. Thats a fact. Want proof? The next incarnation of Black Sabbath was/is accepted much more openly due to Tony still being there. Had Ozzy had carried on with the name and different members, we would have almost EXACTLY the same situation as new-Guns have today.

There's a quote somewhere, from the early '90s. The issue of songwriting credits came up, and Axl claimed that Slash had come up with a system of dividing the songwriting credits for the band. When everything was totalled, Axl's songwriting contributions to Guns amounted to 41%, with the rest being divided amongst the other 4. That's nearly half of all the contributions coming from one man, with the other 59% coming from FOUR other guys combined. Now, wouldn't the outspoken Slash who was calling Axl a "diva", and all sorts of other shit, have countered that if it wasn't true?

In fact, that quote might have come up from the Adler case in 1993, as Adler was going after the band for money and something to do with songwriting credits. Axl could've been taken to court for perjury had that system not been so if the quote does indeed come from the case.

I'm aware of the quote, but even with that, Tony's input in Black Sabbath dwarfs Axl's supposed 41%. Im talking major portions here like Dave Mustaine of Megadeth, Trent Reznor of NIN, Billy Corgan of Smashing Pumpkins, Tony of Black Sabbath. Those guys wrote at least 80% of the stuff, hence why no one gives a fuck that they still carry on without the original members. Guns are a different story for that exact reason. Thats why people say "its not Guns N' Roses". No one ever says "thats not Smashing Pumpkins because Iha and Chamberlin aren't there". Each member of original GnR had their imprint in the sound, their own signiture, and now its been stripped 80%.

Actually it would be more accurate to say that each member of the original Guns had their own "image", which carries a heavy weight with the public. Axl and Slash are iconic guys in terms of their looks and personas. The public--Not the diehards, but Joe Public--didn't seem to care when Steven and Izzy were gone, because they weren't faces of the band. To the main public, they were the awkward guitarist in the background and the drugged up drummer. No biggie. And the public is what made up probably 80% of Guns huge popularity. 25,000 diehards on a forum aren't what made Guns sell 15 million copies of AFD.

It's all about image. If just Axl and Slash reunited under the Guns moniker, the mainstream public would consider it Guns N' Roses.

Even if it was just Axl, Slash + the current lineup, the public would consider it GN'R. And that has a lot to do with image, since the whole idea of "Axl/Slash" as this dynamic team similar to "Mick/Keith" is a myth...If there was any 'team' in GN'R, it was Axl/Izzy.

There's still 20% of original Guns, if you want to put it that way, and as far as I'm concerned, the guy left is the one who was always the most talented, interesting and enticing. A Slash, Duff and Steven band in 1985 would've been just another 80's Motley Crue thing. Axl always aimed for more than that, and he brought out the best in them. The fact that an amazing composition like November Rain LONG predated Axl's association with Slash says a lot about the man's talent and vision, especially in the time when music like Van Halen, Madonna and Poison was what was "in."

I've heard some demos of Slash's pre-GN'R band. It's him and Steven I believe. It sounds like a rip off of Metallica, to be honest. Hollywood Rose--Axl and Izzy's band--had something special about them. Even that unreleased thing, Crash Diet, which from what I've heard is Axl, Wes and Izzy, is an amazing song and it's a 20+ year old DEMO. With work, that song could've been an epic.

Edited December 26, 2010 by Indigo Child

[Young_Gun]

Haha....not a chance. The GNR brand is all Axl has left. Don't believe me? Imagine if CD would have had a different name on the cover. Without a single,video or promotion? The thing would have sold like 5,000 copies (note to would be overly impulsive, angry Axl fans...I love CD).

Axl will never, ever....EVER allow his livelihood to slip through his fingers.

Bullshit. Axl Rose the name would sell just fine. He has like Ozzy status on his own.

Except that Ozzy had success on his own and didn't call himself Black Sabbath when he left. Other than that yeah they're exactly the same.

Tony continued with Black Sabbath for years with various revolving members. I'm sure Ozzy would have done the same if he could. Tony Iommi IS Black Sabbath IMO...

The difference between the Black Sabbath thing and the Guns N' Roses thing is Tony wrote MOST of the material, he was the main song writer and the founder, where Guns was a collaborative effort. Its like Dave Mustaine of Megadeth or Billy Corgan of Smashing Pumpkins, no one gives a fuck if the original members of those respective bands are gone, because the founders and main songwriters are still there. Different story with Guns.

Difference is, Black Sabbath had a stable lineup for ten years prior to Ozzy being fired (1969-1979/1980).

GN'R only had FIVE years with a single lineup (1985-1990).

Oh yeh, that totally negates the fact that Axl was never the main songwriter of the band, yep sure man, great logic.

Had Axl been the main songwriter who penned most of the lyrics AND composed the music, the whole GnR name wouldn't be even half as much of an issue today. Thats a fact. Want proof? The next incarnation of Black Sabbath was/is accepted much more openly due to Tony still being there. Had Ozzy had carried on with the name and different members, we would have almost EXACTLY the same situation as new-Guns have today.

There's a quote somewhere, from the early '90s. The issue of songwriting credits came up, and Axl claimed that Slash had come up with a system of dividing the songwriting credits for the band. When everything was totalled, Axl's songwriting contributions to Guns amounted to 41%, with the rest being divided amongst the other 4. That's nearly half of all the contributions coming from one man, with the other 59% coming from FOUR other guys combined. Now, wouldn't the outspoken Slash who was calling Axl a "diva", and all sorts of other shit, have countered that if it wasn't true?

In fact, that quote might have come up from the Adler case in 1993, as Adler was going after the band for money and something to do with songwriting credits. Axl could've been taken to court for perjury had that system not been so if the quote does indeed come from the case.

I'm aware of the quote, but even with that, Tony's input in Black Sabbath dwarfs Axl's supposed 41%. Im talking major portions here like Dave Mustaine of Megadeth, Trent Reznor of NIN, Billy Corgan of Smashing Pumpkins, Tony of Black Sabbath. Those guys wrote at least 80% of the stuff, hence why no one gives a fuck that they still carry on without the original members. Guns are a different story for that exact reason. Thats why people say "its not Guns N' Roses". No one ever says "thats not Smashing Pumpkins because Iha and Chamberlin aren't there". Each member of original GnR had their imprint in the sound, their own signiture, and now its been stripped 80%.

Actually it would be more accurate to say that each member of the original Guns had their own "image", which carries a heavy weight with the public. Axl and Slash are iconic guys in terms of their looks and personas. The public--Not the diehards, but Joe Public--didn't seem to care when Steven and Izzy were gone, because they weren't faces of the band. To the main public, they were the awkward guitarist in the background and the drugged up drummer. No biggie. And the public is what made up probably 80% of Guns huge popularity. 25,000 diehards on a forum aren't what made Guns sell 15 million copies of AFD.

It's all about image. If just Axl and Slash reunited under the Guns moniker, the mainstream public would consider it Guns N' Roses.

Even if it was just Axl, Slash + the current lineup, the public would consider it GN'R. And that has a lot to do with image, since the whole idea of "Axl/Slash" as this dynamic team similar to "Mick/Keith" is a myth...If there was any 'team' in GN'R, it was Axl/Izzy.

There's still 20% of original Guns, if you want to put it that way, and as far as I'm concerned, the guy left is the one who was always the most talented, interesting and enticing. A Slash, Duff and Steven band in 1985 would've been just another 80's Motley Crue thing. Axl always aimed for more than that, and he brought out the best in them. The fact that an amazing composition like November Rain LONG predated Axl's association with Slash says a lot about the man's talent and vision, especially in the time when music like Van Halen, Madonna and Poison was what was "in."

I've heard some demos of Slash's pre-GN'R band. It's him and Steven I believe. It sounds like a rip off of Metallica, to be honest. Hollywood Rose--Axl and Izzy's band--had something special about them. Even that unreleased thing, Crash Diet, which from what I've heard is Axl, Wes and Izzy, is an amazing song and it's a 20+ year old DEMO. With work, that song could've been an epic.

Axl without Slash and Izzy would have been something entirely different too, whats your point? There would have been no Sweet Child without Slash, no Jungle. Izzy wrote the majority of the music on Appetite too. Your making it like Axl would have been successful without the others, your so wrong. They all bought out the best in eachother, it wasn't just Axl, thats simply ridiculous. Without the other members, you wouldn't have had the trademark sleeze rock sound they had on Appetite, WHICH IS WHAT SET THEM APART FROM THE GLAM METAL/HAIR METAL SCENE.

[moreblack]

Hollywood Rose--Axl and Izzy's band--had something special about them

needed to be heavier, that's generally the problem with Izzy's writing, it's just not aggressive enough on its own. That's true pre or post GNR.

wonder who helped them with that...

[Vincent Vega]

Axl without Slash and Izzy would have been something entirely different too, whats your point? There would have been no Sweet Child without Slash, no Jungle. Izzy wrote the majority of the music on Appetite too. Your making it like Axl would have been successful without the others, your so wrong. They all bought out the best in eachother, it wasn't just Axl, thats simply ridiculous. Without the other members, you wouldn't have had the trademark sleeze rock sound they had on Appetite, WHICH IS WHAT SET THEM APART FROM THE GLAM METAL/HAIR METAL SCENE.

I believe that Axl and possibly Izzy could've made it without Slash and Duff.

Both of those guys had a ton of talent and amazing ideas. Axl's mindset was pretty much a rarity in music in the era. Ironically, his mindset was a throwback to the '70s, whereas Slash was very much in the '80s.

The key players here are IMO Axl, Izzy and Slash. Duff never contributed all that much, and Steven contributed nothing. And I believe Axl could've made it. If it hadn't been Slash, it would've been some other guitarist.

Hollywood Rose--Axl and Izzy's band--had something special about them

needed to be heavier, that's generally the problem with Izzy's writing, it's just not aggressive enough on its own. That's true pre or post GNR.

wonder who helped them with that...

I find Hollywood Rose a lot more raw and fun than even AFD. A lot more loose and not as calculated. AFD is heavier in terms of loudness, but IMO it's just as aggressive. Then again, my favorite albums are the ones with the most Axl/Izzy influence, the UYIs.

[moreblack]

I believe that Axl and possibly Izzy could've made it without Slash and Duff.

Both of those guys had a ton of talent and amazing ideas. Axl's mindset was pretty much a rarity in music in the era. Ironically, his mindset was a throwback to the '70s, whereas Slash was very much in the '80s.

Actually you'll find both were definitely in the 70s, Slash's guitar playing has nothing 80s about it...

[Young_Gun]

Axl without Slash and Izzy would have been something entirely different too, whats your point? There would have been no Sweet Child without Slash, no Jungle. Izzy wrote the majority of the music on Appetite too. Your making it like Axl would have been successful without the others, your so wrong. They all bought out the best in eachother, it wasn't just Axl, thats simply ridiculous. Without the other members, you wouldn't have had the trademark sleeze rock sound they had on Appetite, WHICH IS WHAT SET THEM APART FROM THE GLAM METAL/HAIR METAL SCENE.

I believe that Axl and possibly Izzy could've made it without Slash and Duff.

Both of those guys had a ton of talent and amazing ideas. Axl's mindset was pretty much a rarity in music in the era. Ironically, his mindset was a throwback to the '70s, whereas Slash was very much in the '80s.

The key players here are IMO Axl, Izzy and Slash. Duff never contributed all that much, and Steven contributed nothing. And I believe Axl could've made it. If it hadn't been Slash, it would've been some other guitarist.

Hollywood Rose--Axl and Izzy's band--had something special about them

needed to be heavier, that's generally the problem with Izzy's writing, it's just not aggressive enough on its own. That's true pre or post GNR.

wonder who helped them with that...

I find Hollywood Rose a lot more raw and fun than even AFD. A lot more loose and not as calculated. AFD is heavier in terms of loudness, but IMO it's just as aggressive. Then again, my favorite albums are the ones with the most Axl/Izzy influence, the UYIs.

Oh another guitarist? You mean like the huge success Chidem was yeh? Your fooling yourself, im done trying to have a serious discussion with you.

[star]

One guy owns the name, 5 guys really own it, and it don't include any of the hired hands :xmassrudolph:

[Vincent Vega]

I believe that Axl and possibly Izzy could've made it without Slash and Duff.

Both of those guys had a ton of talent and amazing ideas. Axl's mindset was pretty much a rarity in music in the era. Ironically, his mindset was a throwback to the '70s, whereas Slash was very much in the '80s.

Actually you'll find both were definitely in the 70s, Slash's guitar playing has nothing 80s about it...

Two different eras of the '70s, then, if you want to call it that. Axl's got a more prog rock '70s vibe--Queen, Elton, ELO. Slash is Aerosmith and whatnot.

While I generally actually prefer Aerosmith to Queen, I don't really like the material Slash has put out post-Guns. The only good album he put out outside of Guns was the first Snakepit record. That album I admit I love. I've never been a fan of VR, largely because of the sludgy, "modern rock" production and Scott Weiland. It's nothing against him personally--I like STP--But he + Slash + Duff didn't work for me.

For me, Axl is at his best when he's most experimental. As I've said many times before, I want more tracks like Oh My God. More experimentation. IMO, he played it a little too safe with CD by having traditional "Old GN'R"-ish songs like Street of Dreams on there.

One guy owns the name, 5 guys really own it, and it don't include any of the hired hands :xmassrudolph:

Lol.

Slash, Izzy, Steven and Duff haven't owned the name since 1992.

[sweetness]

Lol.

Slash, Izzy, Steven and Duff haven't owned the name since 1992.

yet they're associated with it on a regular basis more than anyone else, go figure

[Vincent Vega]

Axl without Slash and Izzy would have been something entirely different too, whats your point? There would have been no Sweet Child without Slash, no Jungle. Izzy wrote the majority of the music on Appetite too. Your making it like Axl would have been successful without the others, your so wrong. They all bought out the best in eachother, it wasn't just Axl, thats simply ridiculous. Without the other members, you wouldn't have had the trademark sleeze rock sound they had on Appetite, WHICH IS WHAT SET THEM APART FROM THE GLAM METAL/HAIR METAL SCENE.

I believe that Axl and possibly Izzy could've made it without Slash and Duff.

Both of those guys had a ton of talent and amazing ideas. Axl's mindset was pretty much a rarity in music in the era. Ironically, his mindset was a throwback to the '70s, whereas Slash was very much in the '80s.

The key players here are IMO Axl, Izzy and Slash. Duff never contributed all that much, and Steven contributed nothing. And I believe Axl could've made it. If it hadn't been Slash, it would've been some other guitarist.

Hollywood Rose--Axl and Izzy's band--had something special about them

needed to be heavier, that's generally the problem with Izzy's writing, it's just not aggressive enough on its own. That's true pre or post GNR.

wonder who helped them with that...

I find Hollywood Rose a lot more raw and fun than even AFD. A lot more loose and not as calculated. AFD is heavier in terms of loudness, but IMO it's just as aggressive. Then again, my favorite albums are the ones with the most Axl/Izzy influence, the UYIs.

Oh another guitarist? You mean like the huge success Chidem was yeh? Your fooling yourself, im done trying to have a serious discussion with you.

Considering that CD was produced by a band that:

1) Hadn't produced an album since 1993

2) Hadn't made a video since 1994

3) Hadn't held a major press conference since 1993

4) Hadn't appeared on TV in over half a decade before CD's release

5) Had many of the album's songs leak years prior to release and had the album available for a free digital download for about a week before it was released

6) Has suffered from bad press for multiple reasons

7) Whose last album only sold one million copies (albeit a covers album, but still--to go from 7 million to 1 million in 2 years is a pretty big decline in popularity. Consider that Live Shit, Binge & Purge by Metallica, which was released by Metallica the same year as TSI, sold 15 million).

and the fact that the album itself had little promotion and was released in an era where Rap and Electro Pop were the most popular genres (unlike AFD and the UYIs which were released in a time when rock still dominated), it sold very well when all of those factors are taken into consideration. Besides, are sales a great indicator of quality? Vanilla Ice's debut was a huge hit. Vanilla Ice's debut album sold more than the Illusion albums, and not that much less than AFD.

Are we to say, based on those stellar numbers, that his album was greater than the UYI's and nearly on par with AFD?

Consider the Rolling Stones. Their biggest album, Some Girls, has sold 5 million copies--Ten million less than GN'R's debut! Is that to say that ALL of The Stones' albums are of less quality or artistic merit than AFD?

Consider also that when AFD and UYI came out, there was no real Internet and things like MP3s, digital downloads, and torrents didn't exist.

Edited December 26, 2010 by Indigo Child

[Young_Gun]

Axl without Slash and Izzy would have been something entirely different too, whats your point? There would have been no Sweet Child without Slash, no Jungle. Izzy wrote the majority of the music on Appetite too. Your making it like Axl would have been successful without the others, your so wrong. They all bought out the best in eachother, it wasn't just Axl, thats simply ridiculous. Without the other members, you wouldn't have had the trademark sleeze rock sound they had on Appetite, WHICH IS WHAT SET THEM APART FROM THE GLAM METAL/HAIR METAL SCENE.

I believe that Axl and possibly Izzy could've made it without Slash and Duff.

Both of those guys had a ton of talent and amazing ideas. Axl's mindset was pretty much a rarity in music in the era. Ironically, his mindset was a throwback to the '70s, whereas Slash was very much in the '80s.

The key players here are IMO Axl, Izzy and Slash. Duff never contributed all that much, and Steven contributed nothing. And I believe Axl could've made it. If it hadn't been Slash, it would've been some other guitarist.

Hollywood Rose--Axl and Izzy's band--had something special about them

needed to be heavier, that's generally the problem with Izzy's writing, it's just not aggressive enough on its own. That's true pre or post GNR.

wonder who helped them with that...

I find Hollywood Rose a lot more raw and fun than even AFD. A lot more loose and not as calculated. AFD is heavier in terms of loudness, but IMO it's just as aggressive. Then again, my favorite albums are the ones with the most Axl/Izzy influence, the UYIs.

Oh another guitarist? You mean like the huge success Chidem was yeh? Your fooling yourself, im done trying to have a serious discussion with you.

Considering that CD was produced by a band that:

1) Hadn't produced an album since 1993

2) Hadn't made a video since 1994

3) Hadn't held a major press conference since 1993

4) Hadn't appeared on TV in over half a decade before CD's release

5) Had many of the album's songs leak years prior to release and had the album available for a free digital download for about a week before it was released

6) Has suffered from bad press for multiple reasons

and the fact that the album itself had little promotion and was released in an era where Rap and Electro Pop were the most popular genres (unlike AFD and the UYIs which were released in a time when rock still dominated), it sold very well when all of those factors are taken into consideration. Besides, are sales a great indicator of quality? Vanilla Ice's debut was a huge hit.

You bought up sales when you said "And I believe Axl could've made it. If it hadn't been Slash, it would've been some other guitarist". "Could've" made it strongly implies success in the music business, meaning sales.

CD only did what it did because it had the Guns N' Roses moniker on the front. It would have done much worse if it was a no name band like Guns were when they started off. Even with the advantage of a strong name and endless hype, it only sold a decent amount. Yet you state Axl could have made it with another guitarist, back then. Not a chance.

[SunnyDRE]

Axl without Slash and Izzy would have been something entirely different too, whats your point? There would have been no Sweet Child without Slash, no Jungle. Izzy wrote the majority of the music on Appetite too. Your making it like Axl would have been successful without the others, your so wrong. They all bought out the best in eachother, it wasn't just Axl, thats simply ridiculous. Without the other members, you wouldn't have had the trademark sleeze rock sound they had on Appetite, WHICH IS WHAT SET THEM APART FROM THE GLAM METAL/HAIR METAL SCENE.

I believe that Axl and possibly Izzy could've made it without Slash and Duff.

Both of those guys had a ton of talent and amazing ideas. Axl's mindset was pretty much a rarity in music in the era. Ironically, his mindset was a throwback to the '70s, whereas Slash was very much in the '80s.

The key players here are IMO Axl, Izzy and Slash. Duff never contributed all that much, and Steven contributed nothing. And I believe Axl could've made it. If it hadn't been Slash, it would've been some other guitarist.

Hollywood Rose--Axl and Izzy's band--had something special about them

needed to be heavier, that's generally the problem with Izzy's writing, it's just not aggressive enough on its own. That's true pre or post GNR.

wonder who helped them with that...

I find Hollywood Rose a lot more raw and fun than even AFD. A lot more loose and not as calculated. AFD is heavier in terms of loudness, but IMO it's just as aggressive. Then again, my favorite albums are the ones with the most Axl/Izzy influence, the UYIs.

Oh another guitarist? You mean like the huge success Chidem was yeh? Your fooling yourself, im done trying to have a serious discussion with you.

Considering that CD was produced by a band that:

1) Hadn't produced an album since 1993

2) Hadn't made a video since 1994

3) Hadn't held a major press conference since 1993

4) Hadn't appeared on TV in over half a decade before CD's release

5) Had many of the album's songs leak years prior to release and had the album available for a free digital download for about a week before it was released

6) Has suffered from bad press for multiple reasons

and the fact that the album itself had little promotion and was released in an era where Rap and Electro Pop were the most popular genres (unlike AFD and the UYIs which were released in a time when rock still dominated), it sold very well when all of those factors are taken into consideration. Besides, are sales a great indicator of quality? Vanilla Ice's debut was a huge hit.

Wonder if the record company thinks the album was a hit? After giving Axl 15 million, I wonder if the record company was ok with just breaking even......maybe making a couple of bucks? Wonder who at the record company got promoted, because of the success that is CD?

[Vincent Vega]

Axl without Slash and Izzy would have been something entirely different too, whats your point? There would have been no Sweet Child without Slash, no Jungle. Izzy wrote the majority of the music on Appetite too. Your making it like Axl would have been successful without the others, your so wrong. They all bought out the best in eachother, it wasn't just Axl, thats simply ridiculous. Without the other members, you wouldn't have had the trademark sleeze rock sound they had on Appetite, WHICH IS WHAT SET THEM APART FROM THE GLAM METAL/HAIR METAL SCENE.

I believe that Axl and possibly Izzy could've made it without Slash and Duff.

Both of those guys had a ton of talent and amazing ideas. Axl's mindset was pretty much a rarity in music in the era. Ironically, his mindset was a throwback to the '70s, whereas Slash was very much in the '80s.

The key players here are IMO Axl, Izzy and Slash. Duff never contributed all that much, and Steven contributed nothing. And I believe Axl could've made it. If it hadn't been Slash, it would've been some other guitarist.

Hollywood Rose--Axl and Izzy's band--had something special about them

needed to be heavier, that's generally the problem with Izzy's writing, it's just not aggressive enough on its own. That's true pre or post GNR.

wonder who helped them with that...

I find Hollywood Rose a lot more raw and fun than even AFD. A lot more loose and not as calculated. AFD is heavier in terms of loudness, but IMO it's just as aggressive. Then again, my favorite albums are the ones with the most Axl/Izzy influence, the UYIs.

Oh another guitarist? You mean like the huge success Chidem was yeh? Your fooling yourself, im done trying to have a serious discussion with you.

Considering that CD was produced by a band that:

1) Hadn't produced an album since 1993

2) Hadn't made a video since 1994

3) Hadn't held a major press conference since 1993

4) Hadn't appeared on TV in over half a decade before CD's release

5) Had many of the album's songs leak years prior to release and had the album available for a free digital download for about a week before it was released

6) Has suffered from bad press for multiple reasons

and the fact that the album itself had little promotion and was released in an era where Rap and Electro Pop were the most popular genres (unlike AFD and the UYIs which were released in a time when rock still dominated), it sold very well when all of those factors are taken into consideration. Besides, are sales a great indicator of quality? Vanilla Ice's debut was a huge hit.

Wonder if the record company thinks the album was a hit? After giving Axl 15 million, I wonder if the record company was ok with just breaking even......maybe making a couple of bucks? Wonder who at the record company got promoted, because of the success that is CD?

Unless you're employed by the record company, Sunny, which I sincerely doubt, than what the record company netted doesn't matter.

I'm sure the record company is deeply touched by your concern for their financial and job security, though.

And actually, they more than broke even. They probably got a large cut of the $14 million Best Buy deal, combined with the 3-5 million sales of Chinese D itself.

Edited December 26, 2010 by Indigo Child

[JAC185]

Whoever says Duff did not contribue much to GNR knows fuck all about GNR.

[moreblack]

Actually you'll find both were definitely in the 70s, Slash's guitar playing has nothing 80s about it...

Two different eras of the '70s, then, if you want to call it that. Axl's got a more prog rock '70s vibe--Queen, Elton, ELO. Slash is Aerosmith and whatnot.

Yeah, 70s riff rock with other elements occasionally thrown in. You may not like that element on its own, but it definitely took Izzy and Axl's own stuff to a whole other level.

[JAC185]

Actually you'll find both were definitely in the 70s, Slash's guitar playing has nothing 80s about it...

Two different eras of the '70s, then, if you want to call it that. Axl's got a more prog rock '70s vibe--Queen, Elton, ELO. Slash is Aerosmith and whatnot.

Yeah, 70s riff rock with other elements occasionally thrown in. You may not like that element on its own, but it definitely took Izzy and Axl's own stuff to a whole other level.

Exactly. Indigo you are far too eager to try and dissect each little influence and label and so on. The magic of GNR was just that, the unquantifiable magic that some bands have. You can not just write it down as this + this + this + this and say "oh,well that explains it all"

Edited December 26, 2010 by JAC185

[Vincent Vega]

Actually you'll find both were definitely in the 70s, Slash's guitar playing has nothing 80s about it...

Two different eras of the '70s, then, if you want to call it that. Axl's got a more prog rock '70s vibe--Queen, Elton, ELO. Slash is Aerosmith and whatnot.

Yeah, 70s riff rock with other elements occasionally thrown in. You may not like that element on its own, but it definitely took Izzy and Axl's own stuff to a whole other level.

On it's own, I prefer stuff like Aerosmith to Queen and ELO. I like aggressive music, or stuff with a groove.

I just don't like Slash's efforts post 1995. The Snakepit record was the last great thing he put out, IMO. Has some of his best work. I've often said I wished that he gave the songs back to Axl when Axl changed his mind. It would've made a good mid period Guns' record.

I don't find his work as of late, with VR or the solo album to that have sexy bluesy feel, and I feel the production on those records is far too modern. The guitars in VR sound too sludgy and modern rock-ish and the solo album was kind of "meh" in terms of the actual songs.

"It's Five O'Clock Somewhere", however, is probably my favorite of all the alumni's solo output.

Actually you'll find both were definitely in the 70s, Slash's guitar playing has nothing 80s about it...

Two different eras of the '70s, then, if you want to call it that. Axl's got a more prog rock '70s vibe--Queen, Elton, ELO. Slash is Aerosmith and whatnot.

Yeah, 70s riff rock with other elements occasionally thrown in. You may not like that element on its own, but it definitely took Izzy and Axl's own stuff to a whole other level.

Exactly. Indigo you are far too eager to try and dissect each little influence and label and so on. The magic of GNR was just that, the unquantifiable magic that some bands have. You can not just write it down as this + this + this + this and say "oh,well that explains it all"

Oh sure you can. I love dissecting all the little bits and pieces of a song, and who contributed which part where. I'm of the belief that every band should release the multi-tracks of their songs. I love that kind of shit, I guess because I want to form a band so for me it's educational.

Edited December 26, 2010 by Indigo Child

[JAC185]

Oh sure you can. I love dissecting all the little bits and pieces of a song, and who contributed which part where. I'm of the belief that every band should release the multi-tracks of their songs. I love that kind of shit, I guess because I want to form a band so for me it's educational.

Don't get me wrong, I thought that thing of all the different Gimme Shelter guitar tracks and so on was class, and I thought the CD instrumentals were pretty interesting to listen to. And I do often try to justify why bands are brilliant to people by listing things like that.

But I mean, the magic of certain bands is that they become more than the sum of their parts - and that is unquantifiable. You know when you hear music and you just think 'YES!' and are not even sure why? Its not as if I could justify the way Sex Pistols hits me by listing the instrumentation.

[Vincent Vega]

Right Axl would have been successful without Slash and Steven because he was so successful before they joined the band right?

I am not saying they were the only reason for AFD being such an epic classic as GnR was the sum of the parts and to say Axl would have made it anyway is being pretty shortsighted and ignoring the history of the band and how they actually made it...

In fact if it wasn't for Tom Zutaut getting Geffen to call in a favour with MTV and getting "Welcome to the Jungle" played the band might have faded into obscurity.

IMHO Tom Z was as important to the bands success as any of the members..and Vicky Hamilton deserves props also for booking the band in those early days and helping to build a following.

NuGnR fans should remember there would never had been a ChiDem if it had not been for the AFD lineup and people who supported it and helped make it a success...............

We'll recognize that if you guys move on, like Slash, Izzy and Duff have, and stop trying to bring people who actually support the new band down and attacking the band at every turn.