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Rose, Corgan: Same Dilema


auad

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Another difference is that Corgan actively does things. Like he discusses the music industry, does interviews, releases free new Smashing Pumpkins EP's, etc. Still he doesn't play the old hits because he wants people to understand the new stuff, unlike Axl, who has mostly played the biggest hits for the last decade.

Really goods points! Corgan releases more music, and do a good job to show people the new incarnation of the band.

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I wouldn't say Izzy wrote most of the GN'R music. If he did, he wrote most of it partnered with someone else. He's no more important than Slash. Slash's name is right there in the credits with Izzy on the songs that pushed GN'R into the spotlight: Welcome to the Jungle, Sweet Child, and Paradise City. The only big songs Slash wasn't a part of were Don't Cry and You Could Be Mine, right?

And for every song you have that Izzy wrote "without" Slash, you have Rocket Queen, most November Rain guitar parts, Garden of Eden, Don't Damn Me, Coma, Civil War, Locomotive, and Estranged guitar parts.. No one was more important to the band.

It's the same argument for the Beatles. People that argue that George Harrison was the most important Beatle make me laugh. He can be your favorite because he's the third most popular, but he without a doubt wasn't the most important Beatle.

It is important, however, to note that Corgan wrote almost everything from the Smashing Pumpkins. Played most of the shit on the records, too. I always felt, even from the time I was 10, that the "original" Smashing Pumpkins were more of a hired band for tour. I originally felt that when I saw Guns N' Roses in 2001/2002, but it has long grown out of that. It hasn't yet for Smashing Pumpkins. It's not a bad thing. It is what it is.

Edited by DaneisKing1389
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I wouldn't say Izzy wrote most of the GN'R music. If he did, he wrote most of it partnered with someone else. He's no more important than Slash. Slash's name is right there in the credits with Izzy on the songs that pushed GN'R into the spotlight: Welcome to the Jungle, Sweet Child, and Paradise City. The only big songs Slash wasn't a part of were Don't Cry and You Could Be Mine, right?

And for every song you have that Izzy wrote "without" Slash, you have Rocket Queen, most November Rain guitar parts, Garden of Eden, Don't Damn Me, Coma, Civil War, Locomotive, and Estranged guitar parts.. No one was more important to the band.

It's the same argument for the Beatles. People that argue that George Harrison was the most important Beatle make me laugh. He can be your favorite because he's the third most popular, but he without a doubt wasn't the most important Beatle.

It is important, however, to note that Corgan wrote almost everything from the Smashing Pumpkins. Played most of the shit on the records, too. I always felt, even from the time I was 10, that the "original" Smashing Pumpkins were more of a hired band for tour. I originally felt that when I saw Guns N' Roses in 2001/2002, but it has long grown out of that. It hasn't yet for Smashing Pumpkins. It's not a bad thing. It is what it is.

The proof of who wrote and recorded what is out there in the demos and handwritten lyrics. To me it sounded like everyone except Matt and Steven brought song ideas in. Axl had his Hollywood Rose songs, but it was prob. Izzy, Duff, and Slash hammering things out, and Axl in another room overhearing it, and writing some of it out. Duff and Izzy prob. helped Axl out on the lyrics and in rehearsals, Axl prob added and changed some things. Typical of bands that wrote songs together.

The original SP had a drum machine. It was a 3 piece, I think 88 was when Chamberlain joined.

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Yeah, I knew that about the Pumpkins. It was always Billy writing the stuff, though. I've heard arguments like, "it's not the Pumpkins without James Iha!" or "the songs just don't sound the same!" The reason they don't sound the same is because they're not the same songs. And James Iha contributed almost nothing to the actual songs. Corgan has said that in multiple cases. He surely doesn't like him that much, but still. Corgan = Smashing Pumpkins. I would've thought Chamberlain too, had the new songs with Mike Byrne not been so good.

Edited by DaneisKing1389
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Yeah, I knew that about the Pumpkins. It was always Billy writing the stuff, though. I've heard arguments like, "it's not the Pumpkins without James Iha!" or "the songs just don't sound the same!" The reason they don't sound the same is because they're not the same songs. And James Iha contributed almost nothing to the actual songs. Corgan has said that in multiple cases. He surely doesn't like him that much, but still. Corgan = Smashing Pumpkins. I would've thought Chamberlain too, had the new songs with Mike Byrne not been so good.

IMO the actual incarnation and the new songs are pretty good.

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Yeah, I knew that about the Pumpkins. It was always Billy writing the stuff, though. I've heard arguments like, "it's not the Pumpkins without James Iha!" or "the songs just don't sound the same!" The reason they don't sound the same is because they're not the same songs. And James Iha contributed almost nothing to the actual songs. Corgan has said that in multiple cases. He surely doesn't like him that much, but still. Corgan = Smashing Pumpkins. I would've thought Chamberlain too, had the new songs with Mike Byrne not been so good.

IMO the actual incarnation and the new songs are pretty good.

Yeah, that's what I said. I expected them to be alright, but a lack of Chamberlain on drums was a big blow I think. Byrne is great with the new stuff, though. I'm pleased with nearly every song I've heard so far.

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Yeah, I knew that about the Pumpkins. It was always Billy writing the stuff, though. I've heard arguments like, "it's not the Pumpkins without James Iha!" or "the songs just don't sound the same!" The reason they don't sound the same is because they're not the same songs. And James Iha contributed almost nothing to the actual songs. Corgan has said that in multiple cases. He surely doesn't like him that much, but still. Corgan = Smashing Pumpkins. I would've thought Chamberlain too, had the new songs with Mike Byrne not been so good.

There was great animosity that was derived from the fact that it was always a one-man show.

Corgan is a very hard working musician though, he is always busy with his music. I also like that he branched out and tried different genres. I like songs off all the albums. Eye, Pug, apples and oranges etc. I dig/dug the whole blend of guitars with electronica/synthesizers. I think that if Chinese Democracy came out in the late 90s, it would have been compared to the Smashing Pumpkins efforts at the time. As a (semi)musician myself, I'm very envious of Corgan, he has great songwriting ability. Song for a son is my favorite song off the new releases.

Edited by Young_Gun
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There was great animosity that was derived from the fact that it was always a one-man show.

Corgan is a very hard working musician though, he is always busy with his music. I also like that he branched out and tried different genres. I like songs off all the albums. Eye, Pug, apples and oranges etc. I dig/dug the whole blend of guitars with electronica/synthesizers. I think that if Chinese Democracy came out in the late 90s, it would have been compared to the Smashing Pumpkins efforts at the time. As a (semi)musician myself, I'm very envious of Corgan, he has great songwriting ability. Song for a son is my favorite song off the new releases.

Agreed on every aspect.

The man's ability to sit down and write songs as easily as I breathe amazes me. And Song for a Son is great. Has an awesome solo in it. I also really liked The Fellowship... it reminded me of Zwan.

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There was great animosity that was derived from the fact that it was always a one-man show.

Corgan is a very hard working musician though, he is always busy with his music. I also like that he branched out and tried different genres. I like songs off all the albums. Eye, Pug, apples and oranges etc. I dig/dug the whole blend of guitars with electronica/synthesizers. I think that if Chinese Democracy came out in the late 90s, it would have been compared to the Smashing Pumpkins efforts at the time. As a (semi)musician myself, I'm very envious of Corgan, he has great songwriting ability. Song for a son is my favorite song off the new releases.

Agreed on every aspect.

The man's ability to sit down and write songs as easily as I breathe amazes me. And Song for a Son is great. Has an awesome solo in it. I also really liked The Fellowship... it reminded me of Zwan.

He does have great talent and longevity. Not many sole songwriters have the legs he does to be in the business for 20 years. Dave Mustaine is another one but Corgan has more variety in his songwriting.

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There was great animosity that was derived from the fact that it was always a one-man show.

Corgan is a very hard working musician though, he is always busy with his music. I also like that he branched out and tried different genres. I like songs off all the albums. Eye, Pug, apples and oranges etc. I dig/dug the whole blend of guitars with electronica/synthesizers. I think that if Chinese Democracy came out in the late 90s, it would have been compared to the Smashing Pumpkins efforts at the time. As a (semi)musician myself, I'm very envious of Corgan, he has great songwriting ability. Song for a son is my favorite song off the new releases.

Agreed on every aspect.

The man's ability to sit down and write songs as easily as I breathe amazes me. And Song for a Son is great. Has an awesome solo in it. I also really liked The Fellowship... it reminded me of Zwan.

Song for a Son is great[2]

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Wow, no way. Song for a Son is about the only good one. The rest are the worst stuff he has ever made/produced (I stress produced)

Widow Wake My Mind may even be the worst. The "ohs"..... Oh god...

I disagree, but respect your opinion. music is a question of taste.

I like all the new songs. to me is a very good produced work.

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Dane -

I didn't say that Izzy wrote most of the songs, I said Axl & Izzy wrote most of the songs. It's not even close. That's not to say that Slash wasn't important and I'm not going to argue over whether Izzy or Slash was more important because that would be subjective. But there's no question it was Axl & Izzy's band and that they wrote most of the songs. Like I said, it's not even close.

It's interesting to me that Slash fans are so quick to defend him by bringing up his skill as a lead player when NOBODY is questioning that. We're simply talking about songwriting.

I've never heard anybody argue that George Harrison was the most important Beatle, but if you have, I'm not surprised it made you laugh. The problem though is that if you want to compare GNR to the Beatles, Axl & Izzy are Lennon & McCartney, which I guess leaves Slash as Harrison, so you're kind of proving my point.

Good points, and no artist new or old can be compared to The Beatles. simply like that. In termos of music relevance, GNR is not even close to them.

And lets's go back to the subject of the topic please.

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Edited by auad
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Dane -

I didn't say that Izzy wrote most of the songs, I said Axl & Izzy wrote most of the songs. It's not even close. That's not to say that Slash wasn't important and I'm not going to argue over whether Izzy or Slash was more important because that would be subjective. But there's no question it was Axl & Izzy's band and that they wrote most of the songs. Like I said, it's not even close.

It's interesting to me that Slash fans are so quick to defend him by bringing up his skill as a lead player when NOBODY is questioning that. We're simply talking about songwriting.

I've never heard anybody argue that George Harrison was the most important Beatle, but if you have, I'm not surprised it made you laugh. The problem though is that if you want to compare GNR to the Beatles, Axl & Izzy are Lennon & McCartney, which I guess leaves Slash as Harrison, so you're kind of proving my point.

Except Paul and John often played lead parts as well. I don't even see how one can argue that Slash isn't just as important, it must just be too much time spent on this forum....

When you hear SCOM what do most people hear? The "song" written by Axl and presumably Izzy or the riff and solo by Slash? What about November Rain? Ya, the end part for sure, that song is Axl's baby... Everyone knows it's an Axl song.... what do most people think of though? The solos. "Songwriting" is such a loss term. Almost all GNR's tunes would be nothing without Slash's leads, it would be Izzy's solo work with Axl vocals. That would bring the songs up from a yawn to a "this is pretty good". Slash's leads and riffs take them from "this is pretty good" to "this is amazing"

This translate to Chi Dem for some people as well replacing Slash with bucket, robin, bumble, paul... richard...

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Axl 14 -

I'd have to strongly disagree with you, although I'm sure most of the general public would agree with you. Axl and Slash may have been the most popular and most marketable members, not to mention filling the roles most typically filled by the two most important people in a band (Vocals & Lead guitar).

But, considering Axl & Izzy started the band and Axl & Izzy wrote most of the material, if you were going to label two people as really being GNR, I feel Axl & Izzy makes a lot more sense than Axl & Slash.

But hey, he had a cool hat, so I mean, suit yourself.

Slash and Duff were just as much a part of the writing process. I'd consider the three (Slash, Duff, Axl) equal with Izzy writing the majority of the big hits if not the foundation. But they all put their stamps on the material. That's what made it special. Yes, Axl gets writing credit on songs like "Nightrain" but he wrote the lyrics only as far as I know. Laurent keeps perpetuating this myth that Axl and Izzy were the core writers to in some way disparage the roles of Slash and Duff in the group. That's ridiculous.

Again, I think Izzy was the important recipe in that cocktail, but they were all huge factors in the sound and success of that group. Axl's masterpiece is "November Rain" yet Slash's solos in that are what took that song over the top and made it memorable for a ton of people. That's opinion obviously, but the demo acoustic of Nov. Rain is nowhere near what it is once Slash started soloing on top of it.

So I agree with others. Corgan situation is different in that he apparently really did write everything. I'm not and never was a big Pumpkins fan though, so I'm not familiar with that group.

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Axl 14 -

I'd have to strongly disagree with you, although I'm sure most of the general public would agree with you. Axl and Slash may have been the most popular and most marketable members, not to mention filling the roles most typically filled by the two most important people in a band (Vocals & Lead guitar).

But, considering Axl & Izzy started the band and Axl & Izzy wrote most of the material, if you were going to label two people as really being GNR, I feel Axl & Izzy makes a lot more sense than Axl & Slash.

But hey, he had a cool hat, so I mean, suit yourself.

Slash and Duff were just as much a part of the writing process. I'd consider the three (Slash, Duff, Axl) equal with Izzy writing the majority of the big hits if not the foundation. But they all put their stamps on the material. That's what made it special. Yes, Axl gets writing credit on songs like "Nightrain" but he wrote the lyrics only as far as I know. Laurent keeps perpetuating this myth that Axl and Izzy were the core writers to in some way disparage the roles of Slash and Duff in the group. That's ridiculous.

Again, I think Izzy was the important recipe in that cocktail, but they were all huge factors in the sound and success of that group. Axl's masterpiece is "November Rain" yet Slash's solos in that are what took that song over the top and made it memorable for a ton of people. That's opinion obviously, but the demo acoustic of Nov. Rain is nowhere near what it is once Slash started soloing on top of it.

So I agree with others. Corgan situation is different in that he apparently really did write everything. I'm not and never was a big Pumpkins fan though, so I'm not familiar with that group.

Agreed. Sorry MSL but you are trying to subtly diminish Slash and Duff's efforts in the whole song writing process. They were both integral parts of the band, as were Axl's vocals and Izzy's rhythm. Hell even Steven's loose drumming was pivotal in the whole 'feel' of Appetite. Duff's melodic bass lines gave the songs a groove unlike the usual rock "thumping root notes" basslines that just emphasized a key to the song. Slash's melodic solos were sublime and instantly recognizable from the first few notes. SCOM broke Guns into mainstream success which contains the intro that Slash created with Axl's insistence, still doesn't mean Axl alone was responsible though. They really were an all-parts equal band, the sum was greater than the parts.

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1. "Welcome to the Jungle" Axl Rose Slash, Rose 4:34

2. "It's So Easy" Duff McKagan, West Arkeen McKagan, Arkeen 3:23

3. "Nightrain" Rose, Izzy Stradlin, Slash, McKagan 4:29

4. "Out ta Get Me" Rose Stradlin, Slash 4:25

5. "Mr. Brownstone" Stradlin, Slash[29][30][31] Stradlin, Slash 3:49

6. "Paradise City" Rose Slash, Rose, Stradlin, McKagan 6:46

7. "My Michelle" Rose Stradlin, Rose 3:40

8. "Think About You" Stradlin Stradlin 3:52

9. "Sweet Child o' Mine" Rose Slash, Rose, Stradlin 5:55

10. "You're Crazy" Rose, Stradlin Stradlin, Slash 3:17

11. "Anything Goes" Rose, Stradlin Stradlin, Chris Weber 3:26

12. "Rocket Queen" Rose Slash, Rose, McKagan 6:13

1. "Reckless Life" Axl Rose, Slash, Izzy Stradlin, Chris Weber[12][13][14] 3:20

2. "Nice Boys" (Rose Tattoo cover) Angry Anderson, Mick Cocks, Geordie Leach, Dallas "Digger" Royall, Peter Wells 3:03

3. "Move to the City" Stradlin, Del James, Chris Weber 3:42

4. "Mama Kin" (Aerosmith cover) Steven Tyler 3:57

5. "Patience" Stradlin, Rose 5:56

6. "Used to Love Her" Stradlin 3:13

7. "You're Crazy" (acoustic version) Rose, Stradlin 4:10

8. "One in a Million" Rose 6:10

1. "Right Next Door to Hell" Izzy Stradlin, Timo Caltia, Axl Rose 3:02

2. "Dust N' Bones" Stradlin, Duff McKagan, Slash 4:58

3. "Live and Let Die" (Paul McCartney & Wings cover) Paul McCartney, Linda McCartney 3:04

4. "Don't Cry" (original version) Stradlin, Rose 4:44

5. "Perfect Crime" Slash, Stradlin, Rose 2:24

6. "You Ain't the First" Stradlin 2:36

7. "Bad Obsession" Stradlin, West Arkeen 5:28

8. "Back Off Bitch" Paul Huge, Rose 5:04

9. "Double Talkin' Jive" Stradlin 3:24

10. "November Rain" Rose 8:57

11. "The Garden" (featuring Alice Cooper & Shannon Hoon) Arkeen, Del James, Rose 5:22

12. "Garden of Eden" Slash, Rose 2:42

13. "Don't Damn Me" Slash, Dave Lank, Rose 5:19

14. "Bad Apples" Slash, McKagan, Stradlin, Rose 4:28

15. "Dead Horse" Rose 4:18

16. "Coma" Slash, Rose 10:13

1. "Civil War" Slash, Duff McKagan, Axl Rose 7:42

2. "14 Years" Izzy Stradlin, Rose 4:21

3. "Yesterdays" West Arkeen, Del James, Billy McCloud, Rose 3:16

4. "Knockin' on Heaven's Door" (Bob Dylan cover) Bob Dylan 5:36

5. "Get in the Ring" Slash, McKagan, Rose 5:41

6. "Shotgun Blues" Rose 3:23

7. "Breakdown" Rose 7:05

8. "Pretty Tied Up" Stradlin 4:48

9. "Locomotive" Slash, Rose 8:42

10. "So Fine" McKagan 4:06

11. "Estranged" Rose 9:24

12. "You Could Be Mine" Stradlin, Rose 5:43

13. "Don't Cry" (Alternate lyrics) Stradlin, Rose 4:44

14. "My World" Rose 1:24

Rose wrote the lion's share of the lyrics. Almost all. So he gets writing credit for that where he may not have written any of the actual music. I used Nightrain as one example. Out Ta Get me and You're Crazy are two others off the top of my head.

So you listed all those songs does nothing to disprove my point. It wasn't the Axl and Izzy show. Sorry, but no.

Not to mention you completely ignore what makes a lot of the songs memorable to so many, which are the solos. You seem to suggest anyone who modeled themselves after Slash could have had the same success at that same time in that band. Yeah, right.

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I don't find it to be an exact comparison, but there are certainly many similarities.

Here are some of the differences though. While Corgan was the primary writing force for SP, it was a combo of Axl and Izzy that were the primary writing force for GNR. Some would say that gives Corgan more of a right to continue the band as the sole member of the classic lineup.

On the flipside however, SP broke up. They officially ended and everyone went their separate ways. Then later on, Billy decided to restart the band with one additional member of the classic lineup. GNR never broke up. Axl simply continued the band as people came and went. Some would say Axl would have more of a right to continue on since people quit the band as opposed to the whole band agreeing to break up and then one member later on deciding to restart things without the others.

Regardless of who is more entitled to continue on with the name of their band, Billy has struggled to re-establish himself as a touring force much more so than Axl has. This can be easily attributable to the fact that Axl makes it a priority to make sure the band continues to play their most well known songs while Billy goes out of his way to avoid playing most of SP's most well known songs.

exactly

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writing credits on those albums

axl 35

izzy 25

slash 17

why is it a big deal that axl n' izzy were the primary songwriters? why are facts so upsetting?

You are downplaying the others involvement in the songwriting process. Did Axl write the guitar riffs? No. Did Slash write lyrics? No. But you seem to make it out like Axl was total creative drive powering the band which is totally untrue.

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You are downplaying the others involvement in the songwriting process. Did Axl write the guitar riffs? No. Did Slash write lyrics? No. But you seem to make it out like Axl was total creative drive powering the band which is totally untrue.

That's how I feel. I'm a Slash fan, but I'd hardly argue him as the most important part of the band. That's not what I said above. I said that people discredit Slash's efforts in the band in favor of Izzy and Axl. In terms of songs, Axl's lyrics and Slash's involvement brought a lot of them above the mediocrity that at lot of the songs would've been. That's just my opinion, though. It comes from listening to Guns with Axl and Slash involved and listening to Izzy's solo songs.

I do agree Izzy laid what was often the basis of the track, but if the song stayed the basis of the track, Guns would've gotten nowhere.

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You are downplaying the others involvement in the songwriting process. Did Axl write the guitar riffs? No. Did Slash write lyrics? No. But you seem to make it out like Axl was total creative drive powering the band which is totally untrue.

No, I'm not. The problem is that many of you are very emotionally attached to the perceived value of your heroes and it causes you to over amplify anything you consider to be a slight.

My premise was simple. Axl and Izzy started the band. Axl and Izzy were the primary songwriters.

Both of those things are facts. Neither of those things minimize the contributions of Slash.

And yet, several of you chew on those sentences and then spit out your own premise, while attributing it to me. Why? So you can then pick apart something I never said, since what I actually did say is indisputable.

I find it funny that when I give proper credit to Axl and Izzy, those of you who have disagreed have each either singled out Axl or singled out Izzy, even though I was very clear that I was giving the credit to BOTH of them for starting the band and writing MOST of the songs.

Not all. Most.

Not sure why so many of you have a hard time reading and understanding basic sentences.

But Slash's contributions brought those songs to another level. The SCOM intro and solo elevated the song through the stratosphere. Estranged's leads blew everyone away. Don't Cry's solo was a harrowing answer to Axl's vocals. I truly believe that every member except maybe Adler/Matt/Dizzy bought in an equal share to most songs. It's not only a count of writing credits alone.

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