March 9th, 2013 - Perth, Australia

[Ali]

Multiple people said he didn't sound terrible.

I think the word we can agree upon is "inconsistent." I think his clean voice is starting to sound better in places.

Multiple people have said that they think he sounds incredible all the time. Multiple people are incapable of objectivity. I'm not sure that the volume of people being honest has anything to do with whether something is true or not.

His vocals sound terrible. They sound less terrible amidst the loud drums, guitars and synthesizers played during the songs.

Let's not act as if we can't go to Youtube and watch Guns N Roses videos from 1986 through 2006 and hear incredible vocals from Rose. We can. We know what Rose is capable of.

What he is doing now is terrible. It's not really a matter of opinion. It is a matter of being honest.

No offense, but you don't seem to know what the difference is between an irrefutable fact and an opinion. What you just stated is an opinion. One you may feel very strongly about. But, the more resolute you are in your opinions does by make them approach fact.

Ali

It is a fact that The Godfather is a better film than Plan 9 From Outer Space. But there will always be people who will argue that such is just an opinion. Trying to reduce facts to mere opinions is one of the things which apologists use to justify their opinions in the face of the facts.

If you have to use such an extreme example to try and make your point, you're arguing from a weak position.

Preference is always subjective, never objective, and as such, always a matter of opinion.

Ali

[Sigh]

Multiple people said he didn't sound terrible.

I think the word we can agree upon is "inconsistent." I think his clean voice is starting to sound better in places.

Multiple people have said that they think he sounds incredible all the time. Multiple people are incapable of objectivity. I'm not sure that the volume of people being honest has anything to do with whether something is true or not.

His vocals sound terrible. They sound less terrible amidst the loud drums, guitars and synthesizers played during the songs.

Let's not act as if we can't go to Youtube and watch Guns N Roses videos from 1986 through 2006 and hear incredible vocals from Rose. We can. We know what Rose is capable of.

What he is doing now is terrible. It's not really a matter of opinion. It is a matter of being honest.

I'm sorry, I just don't agree that his "vocals sound terrible." I truly, honestly believe that some of you are just being dramatic.

Oh and...

Do you see the irony in the fact that you're an extremist just like the people saying he sounded fantastic are extremists? You said he sounded terrible. You're no better than the people you're criticizing.

I didn't claim to be better than anyone. To suggest, after hearing them, that these 2013 vocals of Rose are anything other than terrible is to simply ignore reality. To deceive yourself, and ostensibly to try to deceive others. It has nothing to do with extremism. It has everything to do with objectivity. He sounds awful. No amount of trying to confuse or deny that is going to change that fact. If you like, I can start linking to Youtube videos from 1986 shows and 1987 shows and 1988 shows and 1991 shows and 1992 shows and 1993 shows and all the way up to the 2006 shows, where Rose sounded incredible.

It appears to me that some of you have taken defending Rose to such extremes that you are incapable of being honest about him, even with yourselves. Whereas I can watch the 2006 shows and enjoy the awesome vocals of Rose, and then see these 2013 shows and comment about how terrible his vocals are.

And, again, I'm happy to provide video evidence of same.

[Ali]

Multiple people said he didn't sound terrible.

I think the word we can agree upon is "inconsistent." I think his clean voice is starting to sound better in places.

Multiple people have said that they think he sounds incredible all the time. Multiple people are incapable of objectivity. I'm not sure that the volume of people being honest has anything to do with whether something is true or not.

His vocals sound terrible. They sound less terrible amidst the loud drums, guitars and synthesizers played during the songs.

Let's not act as if we can't go to Youtube and watch Guns N Roses videos from 1986 through 2006 and hear incredible vocals from Rose. We can. We know what Rose is capable of.

What he is doing now is terrible. It's not really a matter of opinion. It is a matter of being honest.

I'm sorry, I just don't agree that his "vocals sound terrible." I truly, honestly believe that some of you are just being dramatic.

Oh and...

Do you see the irony in the fact that you're an extremist just like the people saying he sounded fantastic are extremists? You said he sounded terrible. You're no better than the people you're criticizing.

I didn't claim to be better than anyone. To suggest, after hearing them, that these 2013 vocals of Rose are anything other than terrible is to simply ignore reality. To deceive yourself, and ostensibly to try to deceive others. It has nothing to do with extremism. It has everything to do with objectivity. He sounds awful. No amount of trying to confuse or deny that is going to change that fact. If you like, I can start linking to Youtube videos from 1986 shows and 1987 shows and 1988 shows and 1991 shows and 1992 shows and 1993 shows and all the way up to the 2006 shows, where Rose sounded incredible.

It appears to me that some of you have taken defending Rose to such extremes that you are incapable of being honest about him, even with yourselves. Whereas I can watch the 2006 shows and enjoy the awesome vocals of Rose, and then see these 2013 shows and comment about how terrible his vocals are.

And, again, I'm happy to provide video evidence of same.

To suggest Axl's vocals are anything other than terrible is not ignoring reality. It's just disagreeing with you. Your opinion does not equal reality no matter how much you believe it to.

Ali

[Sigh]

Multiple people said he didn't sound terrible.

I think the word we can agree upon is "inconsistent." I think his clean voice is starting to sound better in places.

Multiple people have said that they think he sounds incredible all the time. Multiple people are incapable of objectivity. I'm not sure that the volume of people being honest has anything to do with whether something is true or not.

His vocals sound terrible. They sound less terrible amidst the loud drums, guitars and synthesizers played during the songs.

Let's not act as if we can't go to Youtube and watch Guns N Roses videos from 1986 through 2006 and hear incredible vocals from Rose. We can. We know what Rose is capable of.

What he is doing now is terrible. It's not really a matter of opinion. It is a matter of being honest.

No offense, but you don't seem to know what the difference is between an irrefutable fact and an opinion. What you just stated is an opinion. One you may feel very strongly about. But, the more resolute you are in your opinions does by make them approach fact.

Ali

It is a fact that The Godfather is a better film than Plan 9 From Outer Space. But there will always be people who will argue that such is just an opinion. Trying to reduce facts to mere opinions is one of the things which apologists use to justify their opinions in the face of the facts.

If you have to use such an extreme example to try and make your point, you're arguing from a weak position.

Preference is always subjective, never objective, and as such, always a matter of opinion.

Ali

I didn't realize we were going to have to reduce ourselves to semantics.

The Godfather is to 1988 Rose vocals as Plan 9 From Outer Space is to 2013 Rose vocals.

To reduce that to a "preference" instead of the objective statement of fact is, again, just a tactic used by the apologist.

[saber_]

Multiple people said he didn't sound terrible.

I think the word we can agree upon is "inconsistent." I think his clean voice is starting to sound better in places.

Multiple people have said that they think he sounds incredible all the time. Multiple people are incapable of objectivity. I'm not sure that the volume of people being honest has anything to do with whether something is true or not.

His vocals sound terrible. They sound less terrible amidst the loud drums, guitars and synthesizers played during the songs.

Let's not act as if we can't go to Youtube and watch Guns N Roses videos from 1986 through 2006 and hear incredible vocals from Rose. We can. We know what Rose is capable of.

What he is doing now is terrible. It's not really a matter of opinion. It is a matter of being honest.

I'm sorry, I just don't agree that his "vocals sound terrible." I truly, honestly believe that some of you are just being dramatic.

Oh and...

Do you see the irony in the fact that you're an extremist just like the people saying he sounded fantastic are extremists? You said he sounded terrible. You're no better than the people you're criticizing.

I didn't claim to be better than anyone. To suggest, after hearing them, that these 2013 vocals of Rose are anything other than terrible is to simply ignore reality. To deceive yourself, and ostensibly to try to deceive others. It has nothing to do with extremism. It has everything to do with objectivity. He sounds awful. No amount of trying to confuse or deny that is going to change that fact. If you like, I can start linking to Youtube videos from 1986 shows and 1987 shows and 1988 shows and 1991 shows and 1992 shows and 1993 shows and all the way up to the 2006 shows, where Rose sounded incredible.

It appears to me that some of you have taken defending Rose to such extremes that you are incapable of being honest about him, even with yourselves. Whereas I can watch the 2006 shows and enjoy the awesome vocals of Rose, and then see these 2013 shows and comment about how terrible his vocals are.

And, again, I'm happy to provide video evidence of same.

Maybe you didn't read it, but so far in the thread, I've said he sounded inconsistent and that his clean voice was better in places. Now tell me how in the fuck that is "defending Axl to an extreme."

I disagree with your apparently self-righteous assessment that Axl sounded terrible for the whole show. I NEVER SAID he sounded great or fantastic or excellent or brilliant. Quit acting like I did.

From the footage I've seen, he sounded good in places and not good in others. But overall, I think it ranks as a decent show. I guess to you, that makes me some poor deluded extremist Axl defender. Whatever.

You saying he was terrible is just as bad someone else saying he was great. Both of you are extremist. I'm a realist.

[bacardimayne]

Axl sounding good in 87-93 is NOT an objective thing.

[Sigh]

Multiple people said he didn't sound terrible.

I think the word we can agree upon is "inconsistent." I think his clean voice is starting to sound better in places.

Multiple people have said that they think he sounds incredible all the time. Multiple people are incapable of objectivity. I'm not sure that the volume of people being honest has anything to do with whether something is true or not.

His vocals sound terrible. They sound less terrible amidst the loud drums, guitars and synthesizers played during the songs.

Let's not act as if we can't go to Youtube and watch Guns N Roses videos from 1986 through 2006 and hear incredible vocals from Rose. We can. We know what Rose is capable of.

What he is doing now is terrible. It's not really a matter of opinion. It is a matter of being honest.

I'm sorry, I just don't agree that his "vocals sound terrible." I truly, honestly believe that some of you are just being dramatic.

Oh and...

Do you see the irony in the fact that you're an extremist just like the people saying he sounded fantastic are extremists? You said he sounded terrible. You're no better than the people you're criticizing.

I didn't claim to be better than anyone. To suggest, after hearing them, that these 2013 vocals of Rose are anything other than terrible is to simply ignore reality. To deceive yourself, and ostensibly to try to deceive others. It has nothing to do with extremism. It has everything to do with objectivity. He sounds awful. No amount of trying to confuse or deny that is going to change that fact. If you like, I can start linking to Youtube videos from 1986 shows and 1987 shows and 1988 shows and 1991 shows and 1992 shows and 1993 shows and all the way up to the 2006 shows, where Rose sounded incredible.

It appears to me that some of you have taken defending Rose to such extremes that you are incapable of being honest about him, even with yourselves. Whereas I can watch the 2006 shows and enjoy the awesome vocals of Rose, and then see these 2013 shows and comment about how terrible his vocals are.

And, again, I'm happy to provide video evidence of same.

To suggest Axl's vocals are anything other than terrible is not ignoring reality. It's just disagreeing with you. Your opinion does not equal reality no matter how much you believe it to.

Ali

Now we can reduce ourselves even further to a war of adjectives. My adjective was terrible. Apparently it was too harsh for the apologists.

Do you have a different adjective in mind? Perhaps you can share it. I suspect it will be something along the lines of "different".

And when it is, will you admit to self-deception?

[saber_]

Why do I get the feeling Sigh is an alt account of a known poster... mirite? Hmm, who could it be?

[Ali]

Multiple people said he didn't sound terrible.

I think the word we can agree upon is "inconsistent." I think his clean voice is starting to sound better in places.

Multiple people have said that they think he sounds incredible all the time. Multiple people are incapable of objectivity. I'm not sure that the volume of people being honest has anything to do with whether something is true or not.

His vocals sound terrible. They sound less terrible amidst the loud drums, guitars and synthesizers played during the songs.

Let's not act as if we can't go to Youtube and watch Guns N Roses videos from 1986 through 2006 and hear incredible vocals from Rose. We can. We know what Rose is capable of.

What he is doing now is terrible. It's not really a matter of opinion. It is a matter of being honest.

No offense, but you don't seem to know what the difference is between an irrefutable fact and an opinion. What you just stated is an opinion. One you may feel very strongly about. But, the more resolute you are in your opinions does by make them approach fact.

Ali

It is a fact that The Godfather is a better film than Plan 9 From Outer Space. But there will always be people who will argue that such is just an opinion. Trying to reduce facts to mere opinions is one of the things which apologists use to justify their opinions in the face of the facts.

If you have to use such an extreme example to try and make your point, you're arguing from a weak position.

Preference is always subjective, never objective, and as such, always a matter of opinion.

Ali

I didn't realize we were going to have to reduce ourselves to semantics.

The Godfather is to 1988 Rose vocals as Plan 9 From Outer Space is to 2013 Rose vocals.

To reduce that to a "preference" instead of the objective statement of fact is, again, just a tactic used by the apologist.

That analogy is based upon your personal preference and opinion, therefore it was never an objective statement of fact to begin with.

Standard or average may be more appropriate. The last two Vegas shows, which I was at, were very good. But, those are just my opinions.

Self-righteousness does not reduce others' opinions to self-deception.

Ali

Edited March 10, 2013 by Ali

[axlrosefan1]

[SweetRose]

Actually,I don't think that his vocals sounded that bad this time. And no I'm not an Axl ass kisser. If he sounded terrible I would say so. Just because he happens to be my favorite,doesn't mean that I have to kiss his ass and praise him every time he opens his mouth to sing.

Sweet Child O' Mine sounded way better than what I have seen lately in videos. Coulda been better,but not bad.

Same with Jungle,although it was a little worse than SCO.

Rocket Queen...... egh. Only thing that I cared about on this was when he sang the very last word caaarrreee. I made that comment before on another RQ I had watched also.

Used To Love Her....... better than RQ. Close to how he used to sing it. Not terrible by any means.

I can't get into this 3 guitars thing tho. Muddies up the songs. It's too much going on at one time. But that just my preference.

Edited March 10, 2013 by SweetRose

[Sigh]

Multiple people said he didn't sound terrible.

I think the word we can agree upon is "inconsistent." I think his clean voice is starting to sound better in places.

Multiple people have said that they think he sounds incredible all the time. Multiple people are incapable of objectivity. I'm not sure that the volume of people being honest has anything to do with whether something is true or not.

His vocals sound terrible. They sound less terrible amidst the loud drums, guitars and synthesizers played during the songs.

Let's not act as if we can't go to Youtube and watch Guns N Roses videos from 1986 through 2006 and hear incredible vocals from Rose. We can. We know what Rose is capable of.

What he is doing now is terrible. It's not really a matter of opinion. It is a matter of being honest.

I'm sorry, I just don't agree that his "vocals sound terrible." I truly, honestly believe that some of you are just being dramatic.

Oh and...

Do you see the irony in the fact that you're an extremist just like the people saying he sounded fantastic are extremists? You said he sounded terrible. You're no better than the people you're criticizing.

I didn't claim to be better than anyone. To suggest, after hearing them, that these 2013 vocals of Rose are anything other than terrible is to simply ignore reality. To deceive yourself, and ostensibly to try to deceive others. It has nothing to do with extremism. It has everything to do with objectivity. He sounds awful. No amount of trying to confuse or deny that is going to change that fact. If you like, I can start linking to Youtube videos from 1986 shows and 1987 shows and 1988 shows and 1991 shows and 1992 shows and 1993 shows and all the way up to the 2006 shows, where Rose sounded incredible.

It appears to me that some of you have taken defending Rose to such extremes that you are incapable of being honest about him, even with yourselves. Whereas I can watch the 2006 shows and enjoy the awesome vocals of Rose, and then see these 2013 shows and comment about how terrible his vocals are.

And, again, I'm happy to provide video evidence of same.

Maybe you didn't read it, but so far in the thread, I've said he sounded inconsistent and that his clean voice was better in places. Now tell me how in the fuck that is "defending Axl to an extreme."

I disagree with your apparently self-righteous assessment that Axl sounded terrible for the whole show. I NEVER SAID he sounded great or fantastic or excellent or brilliant. Quit acting like I did.

From the footage I've seen, he sounded good in places and not good in others. But overall, I think it ranks as a decent show. I guess to you, that makes me some poor deluded extremist Axl defender. Whatever.

You saying he was terrible is just as bad someone else saying he was great. Both of you are extremist. I'm a realist.

I did read it, and I would use your own words to describe you as an apologist, not an extremist. I believe you were the one using the term "extremist".

I use the term apologist, because to suggest that these 2013 (or 2012) vocals are "better" "in places" is an argument an apologist would use. Frankly, it is a ridiculous argument. What places? Better than what? Than a certain show in Vegas? That's the kind of thing which would be an opinion. Which vocal was worse? Perth on March 9 or Vegas on November 22?

Let's not be silly. We all know what we are talking about here. We are comparing vocals Axl Rose USED to be able to deliver, even as recently as 2006, to the out of tune, out of breath falsetto he currently employs. The current vocals are in no way "better" than anything done up to and including 2006 live shows.

But to an apologist, they would be "better" "in spots", because that would allow a Rose apologist to make some specious claim in defense of Rose. It isn't all relative. The vocals now are terrible. They just are. To deny that fact, that objective truth, just makes you and others look silly.

I can do this for a while. And by that, I mean I can post videos of Axl Rose singing which show the incredible vocals he used to be capable of.

[saber_]

Of course you can do this for awhile. Although I think you're too cowardly to post under your main account. Interesting dichotomy.

[Sigh]

Of course you can do this for awhile. Although I think you're too cowardly to post under your main account. Interesting dichotomy.

I only have one account. If you are suggesting that I have posted on this forum under some other name, then you are simply wrong.

Do people have to employ secondary anonymous user accounts to protect their initial anonymous user name?

Multiple people said he didn't sound terrible.

I think the word we can agree upon is "inconsistent." I think his clean voice is starting to sound better in places.

Multiple people have said that they think he sounds incredible all the time. Multiple people are incapable of objectivity. I'm not sure that the volume of people being honest has anything to do with whether something is true or not.

His vocals sound terrible. They sound less terrible amidst the loud drums, guitars and synthesizers played during the songs.

Let's not act as if we can't go to Youtube and watch Guns N Roses videos from 1986 through 2006 and hear incredible vocals from Rose. We can. We know what Rose is capable of.

What he is doing now is terrible. It's not really a matter of opinion. It is a matter of being honest.

No offense, but you don't seem to know what the difference is between an irrefutable fact and an opinion. What you just stated is an opinion. One you may feel very strongly about. But, the more resolute you are in your opinions does by make them approach fact.

Ali

It is a fact that The Godfather is a better film than Plan 9 From Outer Space. But there will always be people who will argue that such is just an opinion. Trying to reduce facts to mere opinions is one of the things which apologists use to justify their opinions in the face of the facts.

If you have to use such an extreme example to try and make your point, you're arguing from a weak position.

Preference is always subjective, never objective, and as such, always a matter of opinion.

Ali

I didn't realize we were going to have to reduce ourselves to semantics.

The Godfather is to 1988 Rose vocals as Plan 9 From Outer Space is to 2013 Rose vocals.

To reduce that to a "preference" instead of the objective statement of fact is, again, just a tactic used by the apologist.

That analogy is based upon your personal preference and opinion, therefore it was never an objective statement of fact to begin with.

Standard or average may be more appropriate. The last two Vegas shows, which I was at, were very good. But, those are just my opinions.

Self-righteousness does not reduce others' opinions to self-deception.

Ali

You shouldn't use words you don't know the meaning of. Nobody I am aware of is making moral judgments in this thread or on this Guns N Roses themed message board.

[saber_]

Axl didn't sound terrible. That's just your melodramatic opinion, man.

[Ali]

Apparently you don't know ALL the defintions of the word "self-righteous". Here's the one I used:

Main Entry: selfrigh·teous

Pronunciation: \-ˈrī-chəs\

Function: adjective

Date: circa 1680

: convinced of one's own righteousness especially in contrast with the actions and beliefs of others.

By the way, stating your opinion as "objective truth" makes you seem silly and self-righteous (as by the above definition).

Ali

Edited March 10, 2013 by Ali

[Sigh]

Apparently you don't know ALL the defintions of the word "self-righteous". Here's the one I used:

Main Entry: selfrigh·teous

Pronunciation: \-ˈrī-chəs\

Function: adjective

Date: circa 1680

: convinced of one's own righteousness especially in contrast with the actions and beliefs of others.

By the way, stating your opinion as "objective truth" makes you seem silly and self-righteous (as by the above definition).

Ali

Does claiming that I am self-righteous make you self-righteous, by your definition? It certainly appears to.

Do you not see how silly that argument was in the first place?

Do we need to have a conversation about "objective truth"? Or can you simply admit that the out of tune, out of breath falsetto sounds terrible compared to any of the videos I have posted (and will continue to post, if necessary)?

[Freddie Mercury's Ghost]

Fact: Ali and brainsaber have too much time on their hands and would be better off becoming Scientologists

[Sigh]

Fact: Ali and brainsaber have too much time on their hands and would be better off becoming Scientologists

See, I would characterize that as an opinion.

[Guest Gunns]

those upset about the stage layout, remember that they have to go from perth to sydney, in 3 days covering thousands of km's so its a short turn around for the roadies and crew to unpack/setup/pack before traveling to the opposite side of the country for the Sydney show on Tuesday. We shall see the stage layout for Sydney and if its any different for a true indication.

[jimb0]

I think axls weight gain and loss is responsible for some extra skin on his neck... It happens to a lot of people as they age. If he continues to lose weight its nothing a little plastic surgery couldn't fix. I didn't notice anything of the sort in 2006. I guess there is a chance he was even heavier in the off years where we didn't see him. Skin loses elasticity as we age. I just pray its just lose skin and not some serious medical condition.

[Ali]

Apparently you don't know ALL the defintions of the word "self-righteous". Here's the one I used:

Main Entry: selfrigh·teous

Pronunciation: \-ˈrī-chəs\

Function: adjective

Date: circa 1680

: convinced of one's own righteousness especially in contrast with the actions and beliefs of others.

By the way, stating your opinion as "objective truth" makes you seem silly and self-righteous (as by the above definition).

Ali

Does claiming that I am self-righteous make you self-righteous, by your definition? It certainly appears to.

Do you not see how silly that argument was in the first place?

Do we need to have a conversation about "objective truth"? Or can you simply admit that the out of tune, out of breath falsetto sounds terrible compared to any of the videos I have posted (and will continue to post, if necessary)?

No, because I'm not the one equating my opinions to objective fact. In fact, I clearly stated earlier that my statements of Axl's vocals wee just my opinions, therefore no more or less right than anyone else's.

Ali

[Sigh]

Apparently you don't know ALL the defintions of the word "self-righteous". Here's the one I used:

Main Entry: selfrigh·teous

Pronunciation: \-ˈrī-chəs\

Function: adjective

Date: circa 1680

: convinced of one's own righteousness especially in contrast with the actions and beliefs of others.

By the way, stating your opinion as "objective truth" makes you seem silly and self-righteous (as by the above definition).

Ali

Does claiming that I am self-righteous make you self-righteous, by your definition? It certainly appears to.

Do you not see how silly that argument was in the first place?

Do we need to have a conversation about "objective truth"? Or can you simply admit that the out of tune, out of breath falsetto sounds terrible compared to any of the videos I have posted (and will continue to post, if necessary)?

No, because I'm not the one equating my opinions to objective fact. In fact, I clearly stated earlier that my statements of Axl's vocals wee just my opinions, therefore no more or less right than anyone else's.

Ali

And, once again, trying to deny objective truths as being mere "preferences" is just the refuge of the apologist. Getting a kiss from a loved one is better than getting kicked in the junk. Just because you can find a masochist who prefers getting kicked in the junk doesn't make the truth that a kiss is better than a kick in the junk any less of an objective truth.

When you apologists wallow in Subjectivia, the rest of us in the real world will continue to point out facts.

Even with grainy, fan shot videos from club shows in 1986, you can see how awesome the vocals used to be, and how terrible they are now in comparison.

[jthunders13]

Apparently you don't know ALL the defintions of the word "self-righteous". Here's the one I used:

Main Entry: selfrigh·teous

Pronunciation: \-ˈrī-chəs\

Function: adjective

Date: circa 1680

: convinced of one's own righteousness especially in contrast with the actions and beliefs of others.

By the way, stating your opinion as "objective truth" makes you seem silly and self-righteous (as by the above definition).

Ali

Does claiming that I am self-righteous make you self-righteous, by your definition? It certainly appears to.

Do you not see how silly that argument was in the first place?

Do we need to have a conversation about "objective truth"? Or can you simply admit that the out of tune, out of breath falsetto sounds terrible compared to any of the videos I have posted (and will continue to post, if necessary)?

NOT TO BE AN ASSHOLE...but ummm...have you ever watched this show? by the second half of the show Axl has completely thrown his voice out and barely makes it through. Fast forward to paradise and anyone can see why Axl sings the way he does today. He grew up, learned how to control his voice and is a much more consistent singer today then he was in any period of the original band.

[Ali]

And, once again, when you resort to such extreme examples in your analogies, you reveal the weakness of your argument.

Ali