Chinese Democracy was NOT a failure

[Young_Gun]

lol.

7 million copies my dick.

Exactly... 4 million tops.

[Rovim]

You didn't offend me man, it's cool. Now let's go in circles some more:

See, I don't get how 'no they wouldn't' can not be a fact to you. It's stated as a fact. Maybe it is the way I interpret it, but that's how I took it: as fact. The man said they wouldn't. Like it was absolute.

They can assume sure, but that's not what they did imo.

Just because you're saying I was wrong, doesn't make it anymore convincing to me. I think my correction was needed.

Yeah, I did say you said my post was pointless but I meant my correction was pointless according to you. You're right about that.

But I didn't deflect shit. Also, one or two comments about your posts cause I detected the irony in that part of our conversation is not going in circles to me. That's just a part of the dynamics between 2 people discussing shit. I don't view it as a big deal.

Like I said before and this is somehow being ignored by you, you misinterpreted his words. See, saying: "They wouldn't sell more" is one thing, which is at the same time a % of probability but he didn't, he replied to someone else's guess on what would have could have happened. An assumption cannot be corrected, since there's no way anyone could possibly know the truth (in this case, truth = fact), so either you assume the same or not. An assumption cannot be a fact either, only an opinion based on what someone thinks or takes for granted. That's what happened, "stumbleine" said "no, Axl_moriss, they wouldn't" in response of what he said: "[CD] would have sold more if it was promoted as well and it was never toured until more than a year later". Wrong? Right? That's not up to you or me to decide, in fact, no one since those are only that; assumptions. Why would you take that as a 'fact'? Only you know.

Then you said that Axl_morris was in fact, wrong as well - which is not true, and why? Same reason I have explained above. When you post in a forum, you don't need to make it very clear that what you're saying is only what you think or your opinion, or in this particular case, your assumption.

I remember you said that you'd have corrected "Axl_morris" had you come across his post earlier, but then, how did you know what "stumbleine" was replying to? Contradictory, isn't?

Not ignoring anything. He said 'it wouldn't' as in it wouldn't sell more. And he didn't reply to a guess, he replied to a statement by Axl Morris. (would have sold more if...) It wasn't an assumption, it was a stated fact. At least, that's how it was worded by both of them.

They couldn't possibly know the truth, but the way it was said made it seem like they could, so I corrected 'stumbleine'.

I explained why I take it as fact, more then once.

Not contradictory at all: I've read his quoted post in Stumbleine's reply and I chose to correct him, but just because I didn't correct Axl Morris as well, doesn't mean he wasn't wrong, or that I wasn't aware that he was wrong.

My original thought on the matter was, just like I said in the first place: We have no way of knowing that. I meant either way, and I chose to state that only as a reply to one of them.

If Stumbleine didn't reply to Axl Morris, I would have corrected him too.

Plus, I agree that you don't have to say 'in my opinion' after every sentence but presenting something as fact when it's completely wrong demands a correction imo.

Edited July 21, 2013 by Rovim

[vaida]

(to the original post(er) Some fans picked up waaay more than one copy. Some picked up both the CD and the Vinyl (like me for example). I think it is safe to say, the song's off Chinese don't get much air play, if any at all. The album failed to contain a single hit. Where are the music video's? .. there was one for Better, why not release it?

[Guest Manny Manner]

It doesn't really matter to me what it sold. Regardless of units moved or at what price, or where, etc- Chinese Democracy is an absolute masterpiece. It's a criminally underrated piece of art. In my estimation it is the last real rock n roll masterpiece that we may ever see. It's too bad that most people only realize genius in retrospect. I feel privileged that I was able to realize it's brilliance in real time.

[BatVin]

It doesn't really matter to me what it sold. Regardless of units moved or at what price, or where, etc- Chinese Democracy is an absolute masterpiece. It's a criminally underrated piece of art. In my estimation it is the last real rock n roll masterpiece that we may ever see. It's too bad that most people only realize genius in retrospect. I feel privileged that I was able to realize it's brilliance in real time.

kinda agree. CD is a great piece of music.

[wasted]

Holy shit CD sold so many copies we have to rationalize it.

CD is the greatest album of all time.

[Guest Manny Manner]

It doesn't really matter to me what it sold. Regardless of units moved or at what price, or where, etc- Chinese Democracy is an absolute masterpiece. It's a criminally underrated piece of art. In my estimation it is the last real rock n roll masterpiece that we may ever see. It's too bad that most people only realize genius in retrospect. I feel privileged that I was able to realize it's brilliance in real time.

kinda agree. CD is a great piece of music.

The fact that a lot of people bash it has nothing to do with music and everything to do with perception (and who's not playing guitar on the record). If people thought Slash was on it it would be universally hailed as one of the great records of all time. It's truly one of my favorite records of all time. I heard someone say that the critical evaluation of it is getting worse and that's just blatantly false. For one- the reviews were pretty favorable initially (all things considered) when it came to the music. Most of the criticism was of Axl personally and of who was/wasn't in the band. Over the past few years I'm really starting to see a lot of reappraisals. It will stand the test of time. The music is too got for it not too. It's definitely the most personal and emotionally baring record that Axl/GNR released. I think it's a bit dishonest to dismiss it actually.

[classicrawker]

Chinese Democracy has sold 12 million according to my source.

Give Manets a few more years and he will have outselling AFD.....

But in reality he likes to start these threads from time to time and then step back and watch people argue....I don't think he really believes ChiDem sold that many units....cheap trolling if you ask me......

It doesn't really matter to me what it sold. Regardless of units moved or at what price, or where, etc- Chinese Democracy is an absolute masterpiece. It's a criminally underrated piece of art. In my estimation it is the last real rock n roll masterpiece that we may ever see. It's too bad that most people only realize genius in retrospect. I feel privileged that I was able to realize it's brilliance in real time.

kinda agree. CD is a great piece of music.

The fact that a lot of people bash it has nothing to do with music and everything to do with perception (and who's not playing guitar on the record). If people thought Slash was on it it would be universally hailed as one of the great records of all time. It's truly one of my favorite records of all time. I heard someone say that the critical evaluation of it is getting worse and that's just blatantly false. For one- the reviews were pretty favorable initially (all things considered) when it came to the music. Most of the criticism was of Axl personally and of who was/wasn't in the band. Over the past few years I'm really starting to see a lot of reappraisals. It will stand the test of time. The music is too got for it not too. It's definitely the most personal and emotionally baring record that Axl/GNR released. I think it's a bit dishonest to dismiss it actually.

JMO it just isn't that special which is why people criticize it...it does not suck but is really a mediocre effort for all the time it took and money it cost.....

[Bobbo]

As classicrawker stated, this topic has been done a million times before, and all evidence points to, at best, it selling 3.5-4 million copies worldwide. Which technically speaking is nothing to sneeze at. But it was always gonna do pretty well commercially no matter what.

The reason it's considered an overall failure is a whole different story.

It failed because it didn't connect to an audience. Is there anybody here that didn't think it would sell a significant amount of copies at least initially? Just a few months after release, it fell off the face of the earth and nobody cared. Nobody (as in the overall majority of people) would bat an eye if Axl just stopped playing those songs live altogether. You go to any other site that talks about music, and see when Chinese Democracy gets brought up, it's an overall negative commentary from most. It's not even considered a GNR album by most of the masses, and is a black sheep album at best. And there's absolutely no demand and/or mystique for another "GNR" album without Slash and co.

That is why most consider the album, which had the biggest production value for any album ever, had insane amount of hype and exposure, and was over a decade in the making, a failure.

Edited July 21, 2013 by Bobbo

[trqster]

If CD sales disappointed, CD II sales will be laughable at best... The label knows it and Axl knows it as well.

On the other hand a new Greatest Hits edition would sell easily by the millions as it appeals to all the real Gn'R fans out there.

[Young_Gun]

As classicrawker stated, this topic has been done a million times before, and all evidence points to, at best, it selling 3.5-4 million copies worldwide. Which technically speaking is nothing to sneeze at. But it was always gonna do pretty well commercially no matter what.

The reason it's considered an overall failure is a whole different story.

It failed because it didn't connect to an audience. Is there anybody here that didn't think it would sell a significant amount of copies at least initially? Just a few months after release, it fell off the face of the earth and nobody cared. Nobody (as in the overall majority of people) would bat an eye if Axl just stopped playing those songs live altogether. You go to any other site that talks about music, and see when Chinese Democracy gets brought up, it's an overall negative commentary from most. It's not even considered a GNR album by most of the masses, and is a black sheep album at best. And there's absolutely no demand and/or mystique for another "GNR" album without Slash and co.

That is why most consider the album, which had the biggest production value for any album ever, had insane amount of hype and exposure, and was over a decade in the making, a failure.

This.

[wasted]

So Black Ice didnt find an audience bcos it only sold 6. 5 and not as many as Back in Black?

i think its more about people not accepting it as a GNR record. And that seems fair enough. CD seems like Axls side of things.

[Bobbo]

The failure and what it sold aren't the same thing.

CD failed, because yeah, for whatever reason you want to cite, most people didn't view it as a legit GNR album, but more importantly because most didn't take to the actual material.

The masses actually would gladly welcome another current AC/DC album after Black Ice. Most don't give a shit about another current "GNR" album after Chinese Democracy. That's the difference.

[dalsh327]

So how many copies did Chinese Democracy sell?

[Crash Diet]

Black Ice (AC/DC) - 6,5 million copies sold.

Death Magnetic (Metallica) - 9 million copies sold.

The Circle (Bon Jovi) - 3 millions copies sold.

No Line In The Horizon (U2) - 5 millions copies sold.

All studio albums by huge old rock bands. Chinese Democracy sold more than 7 million copies!

"Oh, but all those other albums didn't cost 14 million dollars to produce." Well, Best Buy paied all that value to release the album, so if Chinese Democracy had sold one single copy, it wouldn't have been a failure already. But no, it sold more than 7 million copies, more than other huge bands with their albums released on 2008/2009.

the key point is that EVERY gnr fan wants to hear this album after those years...

[Crash Diet]

here are the real deal
http://www.mygnrforum.com/index.php?/topic/182533-chinese-democracy-sales-detailed/

Nosaj Thing: It wasn't just a reply, cause he stated it as fact: they wouldn't sell. I just pointed out (or corrected whatever you want to call it) that he had no way of knowing that.

You said twice that you don't use the word 'awful' in half of your posts or close to that. We can just agree that you like that word and use it a lot or you can give me a specific percentage but I prefer we'll just forget about it.

If I didn't get what you were trying to explain, then yes, it would be ironic, but that's just not the case here. I understood everything you talked about, and it's a shame that you thought we needed 15 posts or so to debate it.

They have the right to think whatever they want. I meant it was wrong for them to think they could know about something that never happened and can never happen, so there is no way to know or to prove it one way or the other.

How in the world would "they wouldn't" be a fact? Dude, do not disappoint me. I thought you were more intelligent than that.

After 2 corrections of what you thought I write in this forum or what my post contain, you're now saying that we should agree that "I like the word and use it a lot or I could give you a specific %", but you're still trying to discuss something that we shouldn't be discussing.

Again, it was an assumption, why would an assumption be wrong? If you didn't correct Axl_morris why would you choose to correct someone else who replied to his assumption with another assumption? Come on, you're just going in circles right now.

Update: It wasn't "they wouldn't sell", it was "they wouldn't have sold" since the other user said "they would have sold". There's a difference there.

seriously you're derail the fucking thread
deal with this in PM this thread contains mostly you and Rovim bitching each other

[Bulldog]

I feel like when people post threads like this they are just attempting to convince themselves, rather than actually convince the rest of us. But I feel as if most know better....

[Guest charlie555]

I heard that the number actually shipped was 4.6 million.

But you have to bear in mind that a lot of distribution deals are done on consignment, so you would have to subtract the number of units returned to UMG from the 4.6 million.

If my local music store is anything to go by, I would say there were more than a few units shipped back!

[nambis]

I heard that the number actually shipped was 4.6 million.

But you have to bear in mind that a lot of distribution deals are done on consignment, so you would have to subtract the number of units returned to UMG from the 4.6 million.

If my local music store is anything to go by, I would say there were more than a few units shipped back!

What are you talking about, it was a best buy exclusive and they bought all of the copies at the outset. Edited July 22, 2013 by nambis

[Guest charlie555]

I heard that the number actually shipped was 4.6 million.

But you have to bear in mind that a lot of distribution deals are done on consignment, so you would have to subtract the number of units returned to UMG from the 4.6 million.

If my local music store is anything to go by, I would say there were more than a few units shipped back!

What are you talking about, it was a best buy exclusive and they bought all of the copies at the outset.

Wow, I didn't realise that the USA was the only country on the planet!!!

Best Buy didn't have any deal (or many stores for that matter) worldwide e.g. in UK, rest of Europe and South America where you will see a large proportion of sales occured.

[wasted]

The failure and what it sold aren't the same thing.

CD failed, because yeah, for whatever reason you want to cite, most people didn't view it as a legit GNR album, but more importantly because most didn't take to the actual material.

The masses actually would gladly welcome another current AC/DC album after Black Ice. Most don't give a shit about another current "GNR" album after Chinese Democracy. That's the difference.

I think thats what I said. But it was almost unavoidable bcos of the line up changes.

I still think it might a bit of a jump to say people dont want a GNR, some people liked CD. I definitely think a lot of og fans didnt like it.

You might be right that the next one will suffer because people who didnt like CD wont pick it up. And it didnt find new fans.

But we dont know, its kind of a negative take on it. Its kind of hard to prove.

Maybe at this point an album only has to be functional. Theres good stuff on CD for most fans not trying too hard. They arent ever going have anything like tge early hits.

Whatvwe are saying is its better to be mediocre with the same line up or stay in the same vein than try something different. Im an AcDC fan but stiff upper lip, Black ice, since Thunderstruck its just frisbees. But they havent annoyed their fans like St Anger or CD.

I actually think if we go with what we say above Rick Rubin could help stablize GNR in terms of getting back to basics. It might not be ground breaking but it could be good enough.

Edited July 22, 2013 by wasted

[classicrawker]

I heard that the number actually shipped was 4.6 million.

But you have to bear in mind that a lot of distribution deals are done on consignment, so you would have to subtract the number of units returned to UMG from the 4.6 million.

If my local music store is anything to go by, I would say there were more than a few units shipped back!

Never heard that number before but Best Buy ate close to 800k units based on actual sales numbers here in the U.S......if your number is correct it would not be surprising if 1 million plus went unsold world wide meaning it sold just over 3 million units.....

[wasted]

3 mil is pretty certain. 3-4 seems reasonable. Unless they sold 2 mil in europe and 2 mil in south america 6 mil seems a bit unlikely.

[Rovim]

Bumble recently said in an interview Chinese sold 3 million copies. That sounds about right to me. Tried looking for it but couldn't find it.

Edited July 22, 2013 by Rovim

[amacfantasy]

I've gone in depth about this topic in the past. All things considered Chinese Democracy was actually NOT a failure, but what was a failure was how absolutely horrible everyone from Axl down to the record company handled the release and post release era, which is in large part why I consider this album quite successful.

Regardless of Axl taking 15 years to release the first bit of new music, and him being a recluse all the while (which doesn't help business wise). If GNR did the ablum release PROPERLY in all the right ways you would expect from a artist nowadays, CD would have sold vastly better, especially in the USA, and the USA music scene is just idiotic and superficial at this point.

I mean think about it and break it down

1.) This was a band that broke up on BAD terms years and years ago with one sole member left.

2.) Who has not released new music in 15 years and WAS and IS a recluse (especially during that main recording period),

3.) Who also has become a hated/made fun of figure in pop culture to some extent (namely in the USA a major market).

4.) Who then releases the long awaited for album randomly with basically no/horrible promotion with a incorrect release in many forms like CD booklet, music videos ect.

5.) In the USA (a big major market, where the GNR name really needed a boost in recent years) the album is released exclusively at a failing electronics chain (with not many store locations compared to say a Wal-mart) where for the most part there is no promotion.

6.) And then this key remaining band member who is the face of the band and basically the sole factor fans even care about DOES NOT even promote it at all, actually this one band member stays totally out of the light for over a year after the release, and then first sight of him post release is smacking a paparazzi member at a airport.

7.) Did I mention that half of the songs on this album were either played live for years or leaked long before the release?

So yeah I would say this album doing what it did (not just world-wide but even just speaking in the USA) is actually one of the more amazing music business feats in a way.

And don't forget guys during those main recording years, Axl recorded a lot more than just 14 songs he was serious about (and I'm not talking about throw away songs), so they could if they really wanted to, release lot of material that could be used to make more money (which I think was always the plan, that is to release more than 1 album). So really you got to combine all the sales from all the material in those recording sessions. Will anymore ever be released? Who knows at this point, but if they did release stuff 2 years after Chinese Democracy, 3 years, 4 years, whatever, I'm sure it would of made money for them, so in a way you have to put that in one money pot. Cuz we all know people always talk about the alleged 14 million production costs ect.