Joe Perry: "I had great hopes of GNR carrying the torch"

[classicrawker]

Exactly

Not sure if Axl is the victim, but depending on which quote you read Axl passed on or wasn't allowed to develop it or be involved. Axl maybe wanted to use some of it, use some parts, add his songs. Gilby says there were two sides. We are really trying to reach a definitive answer off loose quotes. What you can say is the writing process isn't how GNR had done it before. With just Slash bringing in the material.

I'm inclined to believe Axl passed on it first, then regretted. Called Slash to work on it but Slash had already made the Snakepit album. That's the main reason for why Axl hates Slash and feels betrayed. Slash made a smart move and Axl didn't see it coming.

I also don't understand why was Slash the only one with "material"... What was Axl doing? I know "This I Love" was around that time (and probably this is the song that made Slash puke, lol) but what other ChinDem songs were created in the years Slash was still around? Did he ever get to HEAR what Axl wanted or Axl just let time pass by, talking about the music, but not actually showing his bandmates what he truly wanted?

I think it's true that Axl owning the name really is the back drop to it. As Axl was probably acting like he was the band, Slash countered that with this is the album. It had a negative effect. It provided security to Axl in case of a disaster but made them feel undermined. I can't see the the upside other than maybe getting them to straighten up, they were in bad shape when they signed. What happened to both S & D makes me wonder what kind of condition they were in to really go and tour another record like the Sankepit even with Axl adding his songs. I feel like they dodged a bullet.

I agree with you on this one too... the problem is they accepted this deal and once you willingly put your sign on something you can't complain later

Axl was acting like he was the band by bringing songs like Don't Cry, November Rain and Estranged, making movie-videos of his relationship with Seymour, which obviously left the rest of the band looking like his employees... Slash must have heard TIL and be like "oooooh not agaaaaain".... LOL... I can totally relate to that. I hate TIL.

To me given what was going on in music, Slash's stuff kind of aligns more with the grunge bands, he can hold his head up with those guys, its not got a bunch of gay ballads on there. Whereas Axl as we know was into that but also NIN, hip hop, a wide variety. Plus Queen and Elton shaping stuff. So Axl was probably thinking about doing something a bit more like UYI with extra elements thrown, not a more grungey AFD type thing. But I think he would have worked the best of Slash into the record, especially rockers and working more like on Nov Rain/Estranged on SOD, TWAT, Catcher, TIL type material. But it's a longer process and I just think Slash didn't want to. He was sick of waiting for Axl, especially when he had material.

Hmmm... Slash and grunge? No way.... I think its like Axl described... southern rock sound, bluesy stuff, old hard-rock style...

I appreciate Axl trying to be more open, he was acting like a visionary, but he shouldn't have mentions NIN or Pearl Jam. NIN is unique and any other band trying to be NIN or playing NIN sound will definitely screw up... I can't imagine Axl singing Reznor's songs.... Maybe he was wrong with all that...

From Slash's book I got the feeling he wanted to get back on the road. He was like a fish out of water hanging around the house. He wasn't up for a long drawn out recording process and another huge GNR record and tour.

Certainly. Slash is a hands-on guy. He wanted to make a record and that's it... Axl wanted to make a masterpiece and take years to develope it....

I think stuff like TIL, Catcher, The Blues, TWAT, Prostitute were around as ideas. Axl writes on piano? But Slash didn't show interest in it.

By grunge, I mean production wise, Snakepit is looser, early Aerosmith to me sounds a bit like Nirvana. Look at Contraband, it's more of an Alternative record in parts but still has 80s hard rock.

Same with NIN, not the songs but the sound. Look at Better, the beat, the effects, the guitar. But it's also a GNR song.

But doing that isn't a walk in the park. It doesn't sound like an easy idea. So I can see Slash thinking wtf.

But Slash should really do the TIL solo and help on Axls material.

Duff played on Chi dem and Shacklers even live when he filled in for Tommy, but I can't see Slash writing Shacklers.

But I see a few of those Snakepit songs given a bit more of a punk metal edge and heavier lyrics from Axl, fitting with the ballads on Chi dem.

But there's more practical issues like Tobias and Slash not geling. On one hand Axl needs Tobias to do his stuff, on the other Slash can't play with him. Then they bring in Zakk Wylde! Good grief what a disaster.

But there is no proof that Axl ever tried to work with Slash on the songs you mentioned and that Slash rejected them out of hand so I think it is unfair to claim Slash would not work on Axl's songs..........but we do have proof that Axl initially refused to work on the Snakepit material and Slash took it solo when it was rejected...........

Slash would not have written NR or SCOM either but he contributes some epic solos on those songs so it proves he can adapt and work on Axl's musical ideas.......you're also assuming that Shacklers would have ended up the same if Slash had done he guitar parts which is unlikely...IMHO it would have been a completely different song with his input..........While he has been quoted that he did not want to make Axl's type of music back in the 90's IMHO a lot of the hostility was a result of the way Axl treated all of them and his isolation from the rest of the band....Slash later clarified in his book that he would have worked with Axl if Axl had treated them all as equals so it is entirely possible some of the Snakepit and Chidem songs could have been the next Guns album if the two of them had not been at odds...........as you have said it is far from black and white

Regarding Tobias Axl brought him in against Slash's and Duff's objections, yes Duff did not want to work with him either, so it was not only Slash who had a problems working with him...And Zakk was brought in by Axl not Slash, again against Slash's objections as they are both lead guitar players, so it was doomed to failure from the beginning.........Say what you want about Gilby but he was about as perfect a replacement for the live show as you could get...........and I doubt he could have contributed to the song writing as Izzy did but we will never know as he was never given a chance by Axl...........

Edited July 11, 2014 by classicrawker

[tinyrobot]

I think Axl wanted someone to write with, a friend from Indiana. But Slash didn't want to work with Huge, according to Duff this was the last straw and Slash took Snakepit material and went solo.

Axl/Duff kind of rejected Snakepit before and they'd tried to write with Zakk wylde but it didn't pan out, so Axl brought in Huge. That's when Slash decided to take Snakepit out on his own, giving up on GNR for the time being.

I think TIL existed around 1994 or before. I think Catcher was 1998? The rest seemed to take shape around 1999-2000. maybe TIL was enough to scare Slash away.

I'm not sure what Slash is referring too, depends what the Seymour ballads are, maybe SOD, TWAT, Prostitute? I think it was a round about way to say no epic ballads that take 5 years to make.

The thing about what Slash says is it's always about what he thinks Axl was trying to do. Like he set Axl up by saying let's see why you broke up the band. It seems at some point Axl came back for some Snakepit but it was too late. Axl has denied he wanted to change GNR that much, but with Slash gone he had no choice but to do something different. I don't think Axl really knew what he wanted to do. Slash left before they really worked together in a real way?

Did they have a producer at that point? How come there wasn't someone who could organize the team work? I guess thats when things started to fuck up, not having a person who would direct the project, like a Project Manager, you know? hehe...

TIL existed from 1993 or a bit before. I remember Axl talking about that song A LOT around the time Skin N' Bones tour ended... so of course, Slash heard it. And wanted out. LOL.

I think Axl had an idea of what he wanted to do but he didn't know how to defend his stuff in front of Slash. Probably didnt have any convincing demos and it was just blah blah... And Slash was running out of patience, getting fed up, so at the point Axl rejected the Snakepit thing, he must have gotten very offended and thats why he put it out in an album.

I guess Slash snapped too soon and when he realized he wanted to go back to GN'R, Axl had closed his door forever.

[classicrawker]

I think Axl wanted someone to write with, a friend from Indiana. But Slash didn't want to work with Huge, according to Duff this was the last straw and Slash took Snakepit material and went solo.

Axl/Duff kind of rejected Snakepit before and they'd tried to write with Zakk wylde but it didn't pan out, so Axl brought in Huge. That's when Slash decided to take Snakepit out on his own, giving up on GNR for the time being.

I think TIL existed around 1994 or before. I think Catcher was 1998? The rest seemed to take shape around 1999-2000. maybe TIL was enough to scare Slash away.

I'm not sure what Slash is referring too, depends what the Seymour ballads are, maybe SOD, TWAT, Prostitute? I think it was a round about way to say no epic ballads that take 5 years to make.

The thing about what Slash says is it's always about what he thinks Axl was trying to do. Like he set Axl up by saying let's see why you broke up the band. It seems at some point Axl came back for some Snakepit but it was too late. Axl has denied he wanted to change GNR that much, but with Slash gone he had no choice but to do something different. I don't think Axl really knew what he wanted to do. Slash left before they really worked together in a real way?

Did they have a producer at that point? How come there wasn't someone who could organize the team work? I guess thats when things started to fuck up, not having a person who would direct the project, like a Project Manager, you know? hehe...

TIL existed from 1993 or a bit before. I remember Axl talking about that song A LOT around the time Skin N' Bones tour ended... so of course, Slash heard it. And wanted out. LOL.

I think Axl had an idea of what he wanted to do but he didn't know how to defend his stuff in front of Slash. Probably didnt have any convincing demos and it was just blah blah... And Slash was running out of patience, getting fed up, so at the point Axl rejected the Snakepit thing, he must have gotten very offended and thats why he put it out in an album.

I guess Slash snapped too soon and when he realized he wanted to go back to GN'R, Axl had closed his door forever.

How do you know Slash wanted no part of TIL? When did Slash realize he wanted back in GnR? I never heard him say he wanted back in after he quit?

Also didn't Axl chase after Slash for a while after he quit through 3rd parties trying to get him to reconsider? I believe I read that somewhere..... I don't think Axl "slammed" the door until the early 2000's because Marc Canter says Axl was planning on having Slash play guitar on some of the CHiDem songs around that time but got pissed at some things Slash said in the press or something to that effect.......

[tinyrobot]

But there is no proof that Axl ever tried to work with Slash on the songs you mentioned and that Slash rejected them out of hand so I think it is unfair to claim Slash would not work on Axl's songs..........but we do have proof that Axl initially refused to work on the Snakepit material and Slash took it solo when it was rejected...........

Slash would not have written NR or SCOM either but he contributes some epic solos on those songs so it proves he can adapt and work on Axl's musical ideas.......you're also assuming that Shacklers would have ended up the same if Slash had done he guitar parts which is unlikely...IMO it would have been a completely different song with his input..........While he has been quoted that he did not want to make Axl's type of music back in the 90's IMHo a lot of the hostility was a result of the way Axl treated all of them and his isolation from the rest of the band....Slash later clarified that he would have worked with Axl if Axl had treated them all as equals so it is entirely possible some of the Snakepit and Chidem songs sould have been the next Guns album if the two of them had not been at odds...........as you have said it is far from black and white

Regarding Tobias Axl brought him in against Slash's and Duff's objections, yes Duff did not want to work with him either, so it was not only Slash who had a problems working with him...And Zakk was brought in by Axl not Slash, again against Slash's objections as they are both lead guitar players, so it was doomed to failure from the beginning.........Say what you want about Gilby but he was about as perfect a replacement for the live show as you could get...........and I doubt he could have contributed to the song writing as Izzy did but we will never know as he was never given a chance by Axl...........

Slash said Axl called him because he wanted the Snakepit songs and that's when he had to tell him the news about Snakepit's album... That's the proof. Slash told the story.

I believe Axl didn't have too many ChinDem songs to show Slash in 1996.... TIL for sure he knew, but Slash made it clear he didnt want to make more songs about Seymour. And recently he called SCOM gay and Nov Rain video gay as well...... Slash hated Axl's popular songs. Yes, he worked on them, created amazing riffs and melodies for them. But he was done with that. Didn't want any more of it. Which is stupid in my opinion, because thanks to the "cheesy" songs GN'R got massive.

Nah, Shackler's would have never made it with Slash there.... Slash hated that NIN stuff.... or it would be a completely different song.

[classicrawker]

But there is no proof that Axl ever tried to work with Slash on the songs you mentioned and that Slash rejected them out of hand so I think it is unfair to claim Slash would not work on Axl's songs..........but we do have proof that Axl initially refused to work on the Snakepit material and Slash took it solo when it was rejected...........

Slash would not have written NR or SCOM either but he contributes some epic solos on those songs so it proves he can adapt and work on Axl's musical ideas.......you're also assuming that Shacklers would have ended up the same if Slash had done he guitar parts which is unlikely...IMO it would have been a completely different song with his input..........While he has been quoted that he did not want to make Axl's type of music back in the 90's IMHo a lot of the hostility was a result of the way Axl treated all of them and his isolation from the rest of the band....Slash later clarified that he would have worked with Axl if Axl had treated them all as equals so it is entirely possible some of the Snakepit and Chidem songs sould have been the next Guns album if the two of them had not been at odds...........as you have said it is far from black and white

Regarding Tobias Axl brought him in against Slash's and Duff's objections, yes Duff did not want to work with him either, so it was not only Slash who had a problems working with him...And Zakk was brought in by Axl not Slash, again against Slash's objections as they are both lead guitar players, so it was doomed to failure from the beginning.........Say what you want about Gilby but he was about as perfect a replacement for the live show as you could get...........and I doubt he could have contributed to the song writing as Izzy did but we will never know as he was never given a chance by Axl...........

Slash said Axl called him because he wanted the Snakepit songs and that's when he had to tell him the news about Snakepit's album... That's the proof. Slash told the story.

I believe Axl didn't have too many ChinDem songs to show Slash in 1996.... TIL for sure he knew, but Slash made it clear he didnt want to make more songs about Seymour. And recently he called SCOM gay and Nov Rain video gay as well...... Slash hated Axl's popular songs. Yes, he worked on them, created amazing riffs and melodies for them. But he was done with that. Didn't want any more of it. Which is stupid in my opinion, because thanks to the "cheesy" songs GN'R got massive.

Nah, Shackler's would have never made it with Slash there.... Slash hated that NIN stuff.... or it would be a completely different song.

What does the Snakepit material have to do with Axl wanting Slash to work on Axl's songs that ended up on ChiDem? There is no connection there mate......we have not one shred of proof Axl actually ever pitched any new music to the band back then which ended up on ChiDem. But according to Axl in some interview I read there are hundreds of hours of song ideas in the can from that period so they must have been working on something together and if it wasn't the Snakepit material you have to figure some were Axl's ideas yes?.....

Slash made comments in the press that he did not want to do ballads but that does not mean he would not have worked on songs if Axl had brought them to the band to consider...You have no idea if Slash would have been willing to work on TIL or not or even if Axl showed it to him............again no actual proof just your opinion...........the only thing we do know about from that period is what happened with the Snakepit material and we do know that Duff and Axl rejected it initially...

[tinyrobot]

How do you know Slash wanted no part of TIL?

Slash: Well, 'cause... You know, he's not doing... At one point he said he was gonna a solo project, then he decided his solo project he could do with Guns, which I was like, after doing all those videos and this and that and the other, I was like: "No". [laughs]

No, I don't wanna get involved in any kind of Stephanie Seymour ballads or any of that shit. I took off and then he threatened to sue me, because he wanted the material back that I'd written and already recorded.

When did Slash realize he wanted back in GnR? I never heard him say he wanted back in after he quit?

I meant he was working with Snakepit and his other side-projects while waiting for GN'R to regroup or decide what to do with next album.

[tinyrobot]

What does the Snakepit material have to do with Axl wanting Slash to work on Axl's songs that ended up on ChiDem? There is no connection there mate......

Huh?

You got it all wrong... don't even know what you're talking about....

we have not one shred of proof Axl actually ever pitched any new music to the band back then which ended up on ChiDem. But according to Axl in some interview I read there are hundreds of hours of song ideas in the can from that period so they must have been working on something together and if it wasn't the Snakepit material you have to figure some were Axl's ideas yes?.....

No, we don't.... where did I say we did? O_o

Only song I know is TIL. The rest I don't know, which doesn't mean they didn't exist either.

I really have no clue if Slash heard or did not hear Axl's ideas and based on what he says the following...

Slash: This all happened in the brake between the end of the "Illusions"-tour and the proposed beginning of recordings for the next GN'R album. On the first Snakepit-record I used some ideas which were really planned for the next GN'R-record, but Axl and I disagreed on the future direction of the band. I played Axl a demo with some of my ideas for songs, and all he said was: "I don't feel like playing this kind of music." I answered: "But this could be a excellent Gunner-record, hundred percent in GN'R style." He didn't really care 'cause he only wanted to play industrial and Pearl Jam-sounding crap."

-----

So I kept the songs for myself and went on the road with my friends to do the Snakepit-tour. Playing in small clubs and opening for bigger acts in stadiums gave me a lot of pleasure. When the moment came to return, I rather wanted to tour further with my Snakepit for a couple of months, but the record-company sort of held a gun to my head: "Slash, get off the stage, Axl wants to record the new album." When Axl and I got together, we still couldn't see eye to eye however, which made me decide to leave GN'R in October '96.

http://www.gnrevolution.com/viewtopic.php?pid=53912

Slash made comments in the press that he did not want to do ballads but that does not mean he would not have worked on songs if Axl had brought them to the band to consider...You have no idea if Slash would have been willing to work on TIL or not or even if Axl showed it to him............again no actual proof just your opinion...........the only thing we do know about from that period is what happened with the Snakepit material and we do know that Duff and Axl rejected it initially...

How do you know "that doesn't mean".... You're not very analytical, arent you?

He CLEARLY stated no more fuckin' ballads about Stephanie Fuckin' Seymour... what part of that you dont get?

Of course Axl showed THIS I LOVE to Slash and everybody else!!! He was talking about it in every interview or place he could talk about it....... Excuse me, are you a new fan? Cuz it sounds like you weren't around circa 1993....

Edited July 11, 2014 by tinyrobot

[classicrawker]

What does the Snakepit material have to do with Axl wanting Slash to work on Axl's songs that ended up on ChiDem? There is no connection there mate......

Huh?

You got it all wrong... don't even know what you're talking about....

we have not one shred of proof Axl actually ever pitched any new music to the band back then which ended up on ChiDem. But according to Axl in some interview I read there are hundreds of hours of song ideas in the can from that period so they must have been working on something together and if it wasn't the Snakepit material you have to figure some were Axl's ideas yes?.....

No, we don't.... where did I say we did? O_o

Only song I know is TIL. The rest I don't know, which doesn't mean they didn't exist either.

I really have no clue if Slash heard or did not hear Axl's ideas and based on what he says the following...

Slash: This all happened in the brake between the end of the "Illusions"-tour and the proposed beginning of recordings for the next GN'R album. On the first Snakepit-record I used some ideas which were really planned for the next GN'R-record, but Axl and I disagreed on the future direction of the band. I played Axl a demo with some of my ideas for songs, and all he said was: "I don't feel like playing this kind of music." I answered: "But this could be a excellent Gunner-record, hundred percent in GN'R style." He didn't really care 'cause he only wanted to play industrial and Pearl Jam-sounding crap."

-----

So I kept the songs for myself and went on the road with my friends to do the Snakepit-tour. Playing in small clubs and opening for bigger acts in stadiums gave me a lot of pleasure. When the moment came to return, I rather wanted to tour further with my Snakepit for a couple of months, but the record-company sort of held a gun to my head: "Slash, get off the stage, Axl wants to record the new album." When Axl and I got together, we still couldn't see eye to eye however, which made me decide to leave GN'R in October '96.

http://www.gnrevolution.com/viewtopic.php?pid=53912

Slash made comments in the press that he did not want to do ballads but that does not mean he would not have worked on songs if Axl had brought them to the band to consider...You have no idea if Slash would have been willing to work on TIL or not or even if Axl showed it to him............again no actual proof just your opinion...........the only thing we do know about from that period is what happened with the Snakepit material and we do know that Duff and Axl rejected it initially...

How do you know "that doesn't mean".... You're not very analytical, arent you?

He CLEARLY stated no more fuckin' ballads about Stephanie Fuckin' Seymour... what part of that you dont get?

Of course Axl showed THIS I LOVE to Slash and everybody else!!! He was talking about it in every interview or place he could talk about it....... Excuse me, are you a new fan? Cuz it sounds like you weren't around circa 1993....

Actually I am an engineer and I am very analytical mate as I have to deal in facts not speculation based on incomplete data which is what you are doing......

and I saw the real Guns live back in 87, 88 and several shows during the UYI tour...I also have 80+ music magazines from the 87-96 time period related to Guns which I had scanned and offered here for all to read and have read pretty much read every book that has been published in English on the band so I would say I know a little bit about the real Guns and what went on in that period based on what has been said in the press....

you have no proof Axl played TIL for Slash and cannot say for sure if Slash would not have been willing to work on Axl's ideas...

O.K. now my turn to speculate..........Axl claims in some interview or rant that there are 100's of hours of song ideas in the vault from the 93-96 timeframe and do you really think they are all Slash's ideas and Axl conceded to Slash wishes ? As Duff has said " if you did not do it Axl's way it did not get done" so does it really make sense that they have all these song ideas in the can which were only Slash's?

I have no problem with you speculating, as I enjoy reading others opinions on what they think went down back then, but please stop passing your opinions off as fact because they certainly are not.........

[tinyrobot]

Actually I am an engineer and I am very analytical mate as I have to deal in facts not speculation based on incomplete data which is what you are doing......

and I saw the real Guns live back in 87, 88 and several shows during the UYI tour...I also have 80+ music magazines from the 87-96 time period related to Guns which I had scanned and offered here for all to read and have read pretty much read every book that has been published in English on the band so I would say I know a little bit about the real Guns and what went on in that period based on what has been said in the press....

you have no proof Axl played TIL for Slash and cannot say for sure if Slash would not have been willing to work on Axl's ideas...

O.K. now my turn to speculate..........Axl claims in some interview or rant that there are 100's of hours of song ideas in the vault from the 93-96 timeframe and do you really think they are all Slash's ideas and Axl conceded to Slash wishes ? As Duff has said " if you did not do it Axl's way it did not get done" so does it really make sense that they have all these song ideas in the can which were only Slash's?

I have no problem with you speculating, as I enjoy reading others opinions on what they think went down back then, but please stop passing your opinions off as fact because they certainly are not.........

I'm not speculating. I'm posting quotes and linking you to the interviews where those quotes come from.

If you are a real fan from the prime hour then you should remember about This I Love being mentioned by Axl every time he could in 1993. But I guess you are overlooking at it and pretending it doesn't exist in order to favour your theories about Slash.

I have no friggin' idea about the 100 hours of music you say Axl mentioned somewhere sometime ago. I never read about that... which doesn't mean it isn't true. I just can't comment on it because I have never heard about it. I do know Axl mentioned having hours and hours of songs that didn't make Chinese Democracy and that they could fill another two albums. But that's a different beef and era.

You do not read what I write and if you do, you interpret whatever you want, because you have this fixation that I'm trying to defend Axl and it's getting hard to convince you that I am not.

I never denied Slash brought material to the table because it is all mentioned in the different interviews he gave around 1995. I do not know what kind of material Axl provided since I have never read a factual quote on it. I DO KNOW for sure This I Love was written around 1993.

Slash also mentioned Axl wanted "to play industrial and Pearl-Jam crap". Whether Axl actually wrote material that sounded industrial and Pearl-Jam crap or not, I have no clue.

Is it clear now?

[rockerman]

I think Axl wanted someone to write with, a friend from Indiana. But Slash didn't want to work with Huge, according to Duff this was the last straw and Slash took Snakepit material and went solo.

Axl/Duff kind of rejected Snakepit before and they'd tried to write with Zakk wylde but it didn't pan out, so Axl brought in Huge. That's when Slash decided to take Snakepit out on his own, giving up on GNR for the time being.

I think TIL existed around 1994 or before. I think Catcher was 1998? The rest seemed to take shape around 1999-2000. maybe TIL was enough to scare Slash away.

I'm not sure what Slash is referring too, depends what the Seymour ballads are, maybe SOD, TWAT, Prostitute? I think it was a round about way to say no epic ballads that take 5 years to make.

The thing about what Slash says is it's always about what he thinks Axl was trying to do. Like he set Axl up by saying let's see why you broke up the band. It seems at some point Axl came back for some Snakepit but it was too late. Axl has denied he wanted to change GNR that much, but with Slash gone he had no choice but to do something different. I don't think Axl really knew what he wanted to do. Slash left before they really worked together in a real way?

Did they have a producer at that point? How come there wasn't someone who could organize the team work? I guess thats when things started to fuck up, not having a person who would direct the project, like a Project Manager, you know? hehe...

TIL existed from 1993 or a bit before. I remember Axl talking about that song A LOT around the time Skin N' Bones tour ended... so of course, Slash heard it. And wanted out. LOL.

I think Axl had an idea of what he wanted to do but he didn't know how to defend his stuff in front of Slash. Probably didnt have any convincing demos and it was just blah blah... And Slash was running out of patience, getting fed up, so at the point Axl rejected the Snakepit thing, he must have gotten very offended and thats why he put it out in an album.

I guess Slash snapped too soon and when he realized he wanted to go back to GN'R, Axl had closed his door forever.

How do you know Slash wanted no part of TIL? When did Slash realize he wanted back in GnR? I never heard him say he wanted back in after he quit?

Also didn't Axl chase after Slash for a while after he quit through 3rd parties trying to get him to reconsider? I believe I read that somewhere..... I don't think Axl "slammed" the door until the early 2000's because Marc Canter says Axl was planning on having Slash play guitar on some of the CHiDem songs around that time but got pissed at some things Slash said in the press or something to that effect.......

"having Slash play on some of ChiDem" ..even his thanking Slash for the awesome guitar part on estranged... as if and just like you would a hired hand and not a crucial and vital part of a band.

Would anyone who who started a worldwide company with a group of guys willingly take a demotion? Being at the beck and waiting for the call to do your part in the band?... in the meantime being held hostage to Axls verison of "real life" getting in the way?? HAd we not had 15 years of waiting and then more waiting to see what Axl without Slash and the rest of GNR -method of operation

Suddenly you become just like Fink did.... wait and wait and wait and wait for something to happen and in the meantime your career goes no where and does nothing. If you look at the time BH and Fink were in the band alone there would have been enough time to have 3 albums out but noooooo.....Look at the fellas in this band... they wait around for years and years ...and some of them have yet to be on a GNR record....so I think its a vaiable comment to think that running for the hills with any of the originals was probably the only option they had to work with.

[wasted]

Exactly

Not sure if Axl is the victim, but depending on which quote you read Axl passed on or wasn't allowed to develop it or be involved. Axl maybe wanted to use some of it, use some parts, add his songs. Gilby says there were two sides. We are really trying to reach a definitive answer off loose quotes. What you can say is the writing process isn't how GNR had done it before. With just Slash bringing in the material.

I'm inclined to believe Axl passed on it first, then regretted. Called Slash to work on it but Slash had already made the Snakepit album. That's the main reason for why Axl hates Slash and feels betrayed. Slash made a smart move and Axl didn't see it coming.

I also don't understand why was Slash the only one with "material"... What was Axl doing? I know "This I Love" was around that time (and probably this is the song that made Slash puke, lol) but what other ChinDem songs were created in the years Slash was still around? Did he ever get to HEAR what Axl wanted or Axl just let time pass by, talking about the music, but not actually showing his bandmates what he truly wanted?

I think it's true that Axl owning the name really is the back drop to it. As Axl was probably acting like he was the band, Slash countered that with this is the album. It had a negative effect. It provided security to Axl in case of a disaster but made them feel undermined. I can't see the the upside other than maybe getting them to straighten up, they were in bad shape when they signed. What happened to both S & D makes me wonder what kind of condition they were in to really go and tour another record like the Sankepit even with Axl adding his songs. I feel like they dodged a bullet.

I agree with you on this one too... the problem is they accepted this deal and once you willingly put your sign on something you can't complain later

Axl was acting like he was the band by bringing songs like Don't Cry, November Rain and Estranged, making movie-videos of his relationship with Seymour, which obviously left the rest of the band looking like his employees... Slash must have heard TIL and be like "oooooh not agaaaaain".... LOL... I can totally relate to that. I hate TIL.

To me given what was going on in music, Slash's stuff kind of aligns more with the grunge bands, he can hold his head up with those guys, its not got a bunch of gay ballads on there. Whereas Axl as we know was into that but also NIN, hip hop, a wide variety. Plus Queen and Elton shaping stuff. So Axl was probably thinking about doing something a bit more like UYI with extra elements thrown, not a more grungey AFD type thing. But I think he would have worked the best of Slash into the record, especially rockers and working more like on Nov Rain/Estranged on SOD, TWAT, Catcher, TIL type material. But it's a longer process and I just think Slash didn't want to. He was sick of waiting for Axl, especially when he had material.

Hmmm... Slash and grunge? No way.... I think its like Axl described... southern rock sound, bluesy stuff, old hard-rock style...

I appreciate Axl trying to be more open, he was acting like a visionary, but he shouldn't have mentions NIN or Pearl Jam. NIN is unique and any other band trying to be NIN or playing NIN sound will definitely screw up... I can't imagine Axl singing Reznor's songs.... Maybe he was wrong with all that...

From Slash's book I got the feeling he wanted to get back on the road. He was like a fish out of water hanging around the house. He wasn't up for a long drawn out recording process and another huge GNR record and tour.

Certainly. Slash is a hands-on guy. He wanted to make a record and that's it... Axl wanted to make a masterpiece and take years to develope it....

I think stuff like TIL, Catcher, The Blues, TWAT, Prostitute were around as ideas. Axl writes on piano? But Slash didn't show interest in it.

By grunge, I mean production wise, Snakepit is looser, early Aerosmith to me sounds a bit like Nirvana. Look at Contraband, it's more of an Alternative record in parts but still has 80s hard rock.

Same with NIN, not the songs but the sound. Look at Better, the beat, the effects, the guitar. But it's also a GNR song.

But doing that isn't a walk in the park. It doesn't sound like an easy idea. So I can see Slash thinking wtf.

But Slash should really do the TIL solo and help on Axls material.

Duff played on Chi dem and Shacklers even live when he filled in for Tommy, but I can't see Slash writing Shacklers.

But I see a few of those Snakepit songs given a bit more of a punk metal edge and heavier lyrics from Axl, fitting with the ballads on Chi dem.

But there's more practical issues like Tobias and Slash not geling. On one hand Axl needs Tobias to do his stuff, on the other Slash can't play with him. Then they bring in Zakk Wylde! Good grief what a disaster.

But there is no proof that Axl ever tried to work with Slash on the songs you mentioned and that Slash rejected them out of hand so I think it is unfair to claim Slash would not work on Axl's songs..........but we do have proof that Axl initially refused to work on the Snakepit material and Slash took it solo when it was rejected...........

Slash would not have written NR or SCOM either but he contributes some epic solos on those songs so it proves he can adapt and work on Axl's musical ideas.......you're also assuming that Shacklers would have ended up the same if Slash had done he guitar parts which is unlikely...IMHO it would have been a completely different song with his input..........While he has been quoted that he did not want to make Axl's type of music back in the 90's IMHO a lot of the hostility was a result of the way Axl treated all of them and his isolation from the rest of the band....Slash later clarified in his book that he would have worked with Axl if Axl had treated them all as equals so it is entirely possible some of the Snakepit and Chidem songs could have been the next Guns album if the two of them had not been at odds...........as you have said it is far from black and white

Regarding Tobias Axl brought him in against Slash's and Duff's objections, yes Duff did not want to work with him either, so it was not only Slash who had a problems working with him...And Zakk was brought in by Axl not Slash, again against Slash's objections as they are both lead guitar players, so it was doomed to failure from the beginning.........Say what you want about Gilby but he was about as perfect a replacement for the live show as you could get...........and I doubt he could have contributed to the song writing as Izzy did but we will never know as he was never given a chance by Axl...........

I was wondering what happened to Gilby. I think Axl was saying he couldn't write with him. I have limited music knowledge but it seems on surface like Gilby writes rock n roll like Izzy, whereas Tobias from what he wrote with Axl for Chi dem (IRS, Catcher, TWAT, Prostitute?) worked well with Axl.

That's the thing, there is clear evidence Slash refused to work on Axl's materials, when he said that he wanted nothing to do with his Stephanie Seymour ballads. To me it's a big deal breaker for a GNR album moving forward, because Axl would think it's important.

The thing about Shackler's, I was saying that Salsh wouldn't write Shacklers or Better, I don't think that dynamic would be in CD if Slash stayed. It's something that only got real once he left. But I think Tiny was asking what material had Slash heard. I think from slash's Seymour quote it's not clear, maybe only TIL? He could just sense more Nov Rain. But to me the timing of Tobias coming when Slash won't work on Axls songs suggest maybe he had stuff like The Blues, TWAT, Prostitute, TIL around just no one to work with.

I would take Bucket's songs like Scraped, Shackler's, Sorry out. With Slash if he hung around until Contraband in 2004 Slither and Fall to Pieces could have been on CD? Axl claims Fall to Pieces was on the table in GNR briefly (Axl says, sorry no source!)

I would say it's more Axl talking about NIN and Pearl Jam, those ballads being around and Slash's mind set on not doing them and not even understanding what Axl is talking about, than a reality of Axl playing Catcher or Better to Slash and Slash rejecting them.

The annoying thing is that Axl seemed to be coming round to Slash's material and realizing it might be easier to do that. I mean unless Slash leaves Axl can't really get working with Finck or Bucket.

To me Tobias is a classic fix that GNR do, Axl needed Tobias to get something done so he used him for the record. There are no rules kind of thing. Whereas Slash wants a more set working band. In Axl's way each other member becomes a bit part player on the record. Like Slash would do solos on TIL, SOD, TWAT, Catcher in return he'd get to put Snakepit or whatever songs, most likely an opener like Sucker Train Blues. With Duff bring a couple of songs too.

On UYI they seemed to work out like Axl has an album and Slash has an album. So Slash got to do what he wanted and vice-a-versa. I'm not sure why they didn't do that again? Even just do the Sankepit record, tour it then do a more Axl focus album and so on. Why shoot yourself in the ass with such precision. Were they that opposed to each other?

Edited July 12, 2014 by wasted

[wasted]

I think the 100 hours of material on tape was after Slash finally left. Axl got that band together, maybe Finck, Tobias, Navarro, Gary Sunshine, Freese, Tommy…Bucket/Brain eventually. I think Zutaut booked them into a studio. This became the CD with Beavan producing which was done by 1999. Maybe Oh my God and Silkowrms were part of 1998-2000 batch. This is when just about all the material was done. Whether with Beavan or re-recorded with RTB. Even the second batch were around in 2000, but they were jiggled some more possibly in response to Bob Ezrin/Caram.

"This I Love" - (1994-2007)

"Catcher in the Rye" - (1998-1999)

"Chinese Democracy" - (1998-2000)

"Street of Dreams" - (1998-2000)

"There Was a Time" - (1998-2000)

"Riad N' The Bedouins" - (1998-2000)

"I.R.S." - (1998-2000)

"Madagascar" - (1998-2000)

"Prostitute" - (1998-2000)

"Shackler's Revenge" - (2000-2004)

"Better" - (2000-2004)

"If the World" - (2000-2004)

"Scraped" - (2000-2004)

"Sorry" - (2000-2004)

It seems like they entered the studio in 1998 to record. So Tobias songs with Axl like IRS, Catcher, TWAT, Prostitute could potentially have been around in 94-96 before Slash quit. TIL was certainly. So it's these songs I would finger as the Stephanie Seymour ballads Slash didn't want to get involved with, potentially Tobias came in to work with Axl on these songs.

The first thing Axl did in the studio was the horns on Madagascar. Freese did the riff to Chi dem. Tommy knocked up Riad.

I doubt Slash ever saw the 2000 batch.

I would say Chi dem (Freese), Riad (tommy), SOD(Finck, Tommy, Dizzy), Madgascar (Pitman) didn't exist when Slash and Duff still around. Maybe Axl had The Blues but Finck and Tommy worked on it more than Tobias.

So if Slash heard anything it would be This I Love, Catcher, TWAT, Prostitute. Basically the same kind of stuff like Nov Rain and Estranged he didn't want to do on UYI.

I feel like for the next record his mind was made up. If you add This I Love and these other songs to the next tour it's just a set full of ballads with Slash maybe squeezing one more rocker in there. It's as he said a whole set of ballads and epics. Axl's band.

[tinyrobot]

I need that anímated gif where everybody stands up and clap their hands. I need it to applaud Wasted and his two replies from above

[classicrawker]

I need that anímated gif where everybody stands up and clap their hands. I need it to applaud Wasted and his two replies from above

Again maybe you have no concept of what is a fact and what is speculation....It is fact when you can proven swhich you have failed to do.........you would never cut it as an Engineer mate or a lawyer.........

A fact (derived from the Latin factum, see below) is something that has really occurred or is actually the case. The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability, that is whether it can be demonstrated to correspond to experience. Standard reference works are often used to check facts. Scientific facts are verified by repeatable experiments.

In general, an opinion is a judgment, viewpoint, or statement about matters commonly considered to be subjective, i.e. based on that which is less than absolutely certain, and is the result of emotion or interpretation offacts. What distinguishes fact from opinion is that facts are verifiable, i.e. can be objectively proven to have occurred.

Neither of you have yet to produce proof that Slash refused to work on Axl's song ideas.............where is the proof? Slash saying he did not want to work on ballads is not proof Axl ever offered him the songs and he refused to work on them so your claims are opinions not fact........

Axl has been pretty vocal in his chats giving his version on some of the things that happened during the 93-96 period but if he ever claimed Slash refused to work on his ideas I would love to read it if you and wasted can produce the quotes......not saying it is not true but you and Wasted have not proved it to be true........now that you understand the difference between a fact and an opinion is that clear enough for you now...........

And there are quotes out there where Axl or someone from the band back then claimed there is a fair amount of song ideas in the vault from that period...I just don't have time to search for it right now but if someone wants to search believe me it is there somewhere amongst the Axl rants and 100's of interviews available because believe me 3-4 years ago when I was really in to Guns I read them all................

Wasted is an interesting poster but he posts a fair amount of opinions as facts and when you prove him to be wrong he just ignores it and keeps throwing shit against the wall to see what sticks...I find a lot of what he claims is either incorrect or just his opinion........

Edited July 13, 2014 by classicrawker

[classicrawker]

I think we pretty much beat the Axl vs. Slash topic to death so I apologize to everyone and will not waste anymore bandwidth on that tired subject...

That being said back on the main topic I agree with Joe Perry in that when I saw Guns twice in 87 and twice more in 88 I thought I saw the coming of the next great rock band carrying the torch for old rock bands like the Stones and 70's Aerosmith........it is a shame egos ended up destroying that band...........

Concerning Aerosmith I saw them a few year ago and they are really ageless but they are basically doing the Stones and NuGuns greatest hits legacy tours now except they have all of the classic band members to identify with..........I thought their latest album was mediocre and a far cry from Joe Perry's claim that it was a return to their 70's rock roots...reminded me of the Stones albums post 89, not bad, but they could not hold a candle to the music those bands made in their prime...........

Edited July 13, 2014 by classicrawker

[wasted]

Slash stated he refused to work on Axl's material. In terms of what we are looking at here it's all kind of speculation. What they say or are quoted as saying isn't fact either in terms of what they actually thought and did.

It in the very least shows the view Slash held which contributed to the bad situation. Even Slash's comments about "NIN and Pearl Jam crap".

I think you're just deluding yourself if you think Slash was really excited about doing some more Axl ballads. Then that he said he wanted nothing to do with them.

Axl has said things about how both Slash and Duff came to him and said they didn't want to do Nov Rain and Estranged.

I don't think there is a quote where Axl says Slash wouldn't work on my ballads. They didn't seem to get down to it in that way. Like Slash brought in some stuff, Axl and Duff thought too Southern but might work on it. Axl brought Tobias maybe to write with. Slash kind of gave up and took Snakepit away.

I don't think I ever present my opinion as fact, I'm just looking for answers. I have no interest to spread falsities, it's just pretty hard to get clear picture. I think it's easier to say they didn't see eye to eye on what to do, so Slash quit. You could say the media/forums have exaggerated or made more of what really happened.

There just seems a strong force to blame Axl out right for it and when you find parts which suggest otherwise it gets attacked. Slash's attitude to Axl's ideas was problem. Axl's attitude also questionable.

I still think quitting was a mistake, because that just handed Axl the band, after that you can't complain. Don't quit just do other things. Even signing the name away doesn't matter if you don't quit.

I think Slash came to that conclusion to let it go around when he went up to Axl's mansion to make peace.

Edited July 13, 2014 by wasted

[tinyrobot]

Neither of you have yet to produce proof that Slash refused to work on Axl's song ideas.............where is the proof? Slash saying he did not want to work on ballads is not proof Axl ever offered him the songs and he refused to work on them so your claims are opinions not fact........

Is engineering a good tool to get a clue about life?

The biggest proof that Slash refused to work on Axl's ideas and with Axl in general is him quitting Guns N' Roses FOREVER.

(I hope that when your girlfriend or wife tells you she wants no more with you, you don't wave your engineers card at her asking for some sort of fact of what she's saying, LMAO!)

[classicrawker]

You can always tell when someone has lost a debate when they start resorting to personal insults to try to deflect from the fact that they have nothing left meaningful to contribute to the discussion...........

That being said I think my job is done here..............point, set, match...............

Now back on topic..I am reading Gregg Allman's autobiography right now, which is excellent by the way, where he comments that as soon as the Allman's started making a little money back in 1970-71 they stopped hanging out together as much as now everyone had some money to do their own thing.......his comment was instead of grabbing a watermelon and going down to the local quarry together they were busy closing on their own houses...These guys all lived together communally in the Big House in Macon before they started making money and started drifting apart once they did......he also said going from no money to now having money to do what you wanted started to change people......

He is not the first musician to make this observation as Keef made it about his relationship with Sir Mick and I have read others saying the same thing...so I think someone else here hit the nail on the head when they said the sudden fame and money from AFD did the band no favours............IMHO it most likely started the split and was the beginning of the end for Guns...........

Edited July 13, 2014 by classicrawker

[tinyrobot]

You are like that fat boy who's not invited to play with other kids so he creates himself an imaginary group of friends and he cheers himself when he scores against ghosts.

So sad.

[wasted]

Slash says he doesn't want to do Axls ballads, so lets ask Axl for confirmation. I don't really see the logic. Axl says Slash came and said Snakepit is the record.

I agree there's a danger of 2 + 2 equaling 5 but looking at the general context it seems possible. Axl was never given a chance.

Duff thought Snakepit needed work but Slash really only blamed Axl.

We take Slashs quote as fact when it supports a clear cut answer but when he contradicts that we say its not valid.

Similar logics is applied to Axl is late. He claims he was forced on tour and was a mess on the road, going from therapy to the stage. Everyone just says shut the fuck up pussy. The guys being worse for wear surely didn't help things but everyone celebrates. They say it didn't cause problems. Well how does it feel to be touring with guys who are having panic attacks or may OD any night etc. is that making things easier. Or having to kidnap Slash to go to rehab.

Axl kind of brought it upon himself one way or another, he did some pretty good work to become public enemy no 1.

But I definitely see this bias in trying to win the debate type thing. Axl took the beating early on. But the more you look at it, the more you understand his situation having worked to get where they were so why throw it all away? It's suicidal.

Edited July 14, 2014 by wasted

[wasted]

I think Michael Stipe said same thing about Kurt and Nirvana. REM wouldn't have lasted so long with such a meteoric rise. Bands that have to deal with early set backs learn how to survive. Guns fell at the first hurdle.