Joe Perry: "I had great hopes of GNR carrying the torch"

[SoulMonster]

I can't remember. This discussions has definitely fuelled my plan of making a page dedicated to every GN'R record with quotes from band member on the process of making that record. I've been toying with the idea for a while but just haven't had the time. I have to read all the books again, listen to all the audio interviews, and read through all my text interviews. Urk.

[magisme]

I can't remember. This discussions has definitely fuelled my plan of making a page dedicated to every GN'R record with quotes from band member on the process of making that record. I've been toying with the idea for a while but just haven't had the time. I have to read all the books again, listen to all the audio interviews, and read through all my text interviews. Urk.

Posts like this make me feel better about how much of a pathetic GNR fanboy loser I am.

[SoulMonster]

(out of likes)

[wasted]

I prefer to just make stuff up. I think that would be useful, but maybe not in this case because it's how you interpret the quotes. The weird thing is Slash has never denied anything Axl has said. It's just different takes on the same facts. Even the band don't know who did it.

You make it out like I'm trying to mislead people. I've phrased it various ways, I'm not sure I actually said that but in general I was saying Duff wasn't really on board to do Snakepit as GNR. That's the jist I got from his book.

You asked if anyone else agreed with Axl or was he alone. Del told some anti-Slash stories about how he came into the studio "drunk and belligerent" and got in an argument and quit or something. Of course Del would say that…you could say the same about them all, depending on their allegiances.

I trust Duff. He says Axl has problems but it was more between Axl and Slash. I'm not sure why they couldn't combine like on UYI. To me it seems Axl was more open and Slash wanted to do Snakepit or he'd quit, he wouldn't do Axl's ballads anymore. So to me that means Slash quitting over this broke the band up more than Axl being a natural born d-bag half the time. The fact (rumor) that Axl wanted Slash back for some CD tracks also throws different shading on it.

[Lio]

I think wasted makes a lot of sense in this thread.

But CR is right, no? wasted is making claims without evidence, CR refutes those claims with evidence, wasted twists what CR is saying and repeats his now refuted claims or makes other claims with no evidence. Am I wrong?

Okay, you're all going too fast for me. I just think wasted makes a lot of sense and gives a balanced theory on the whole thing.

And now, as I haven't read ANY of the GNR books and I don't have them ready to quote from, I'm just going to refrain from making anymore statements and wait for SoulMonsters magnum opus.

[magisme]

I'm not trying to be an asshole about this, wasted. I apologize if I've come off that way. But you've said some things.

Duff confirmed Axl's point that Slash wanted to do Snakepit as it was. Duff was with Axl and didn't agree. Axl and Duff had some ideas about it.

Izzy has also said Slash tried to take over on UYI (was this on Eddie Trunk around IRS leak) - unconfirmed yellow king endorsed evidence.

From what I've seen, Duff agreed with Axl that Slash's songs weren't up to par, but he never said Slash demanded Axl take them as is or not at all. As for the Izzy thing, I think you're just mistaken about that.

[SoulMonster]

The band never broke up. It was just a long succession of replacing band members who for various reasons quit or where fired. Steven was fired first, because he was a mess. Izzy quit because everyone else was a mess and it had grown too big for him. Gilby was fired (or his contract ran out) because the touring was over and Axl didn't want to write with him. Slash quit. Matt was fired/quit because he couldn't take it any more. Duff quit because it didn't go anywhere and it wasn't fun anymore.

People tend to say the band broke up when Slash left, but it didn't. It was just yet another band member disappearing. The band continued on. The problem is that when these guys left there was no one there able to force Axl forward, the newcomers where...newcomers and their role to play was not to be equals to Axl and make decisions for the band. Axl was left to control the speed, and things slowed down to Axltime, plodding along until the release of CD many years later.

[wasted]

I think wasted makes a lot of sense in this thread.

But CR is right, no? wasted is making claims without evidence, CR refutes those claims with evidence, wasted twists what CR is saying and repeats his now refuted claims or makes other claims with no evidence. Am I wrong?

Kind of. Because the question wasn't can wasted provide sources for all his professionally compiled evidence. It was more: is it all Axl's fault? I was initially just saying not really. Slash would do such and such or wanted to do stuff Duff didn't agree with either, there were a lot factors. So seeing some doubt people pick about the wordings but really the point is much broader. Of course Axl cause more trouble. Hello, riots? But in this situation Slash made some decisive decisions and then followed through in the media as if he was trying to destroy Axl. and people say why does Axl hate Slash? I point to possible reasons, they pick apart my posts for factual discrepancies, I mean even if I was telling the truth I'd still make mistakes. I kind of understand why Slash quit and even why he was pissed, but he brought it on himself in a way. He could have worked with Axl on his songs, he chose to openly say no way. Plus the Snakepit ultimatum stuff. Of course if it's actually true. But there's some evidence to suggest it is.

I'm not trying to be an asshole about this, wasted. I apologize if I've come off that way. But you've said some things.

Duff confirmed Axl's point that Slash wanted to do Snakepit as it was. Duff was with Axl and didn't agree. Axl and Duff had some ideas about it.

Izzy has also said Slash tried to take over on UYI (was this on Eddie Trunk around IRS leak) - unconfirmed yellow king endorsed evidence.

From what I've seen, Duff agreed with Axl that Slash's songs weren't up to par, but he never said Slash demanded Axl take them as is or not at all. As for the Izzy thing, I think you're just mistaken about that.

I'm sorry I didn't get Duff's exact quote. It was just the general jist. I think the Izzy thing is wrong until I find the transcript of the eddie trunk interview elton John story.

[dalsh327]

Slash didn't think Axl was going to keep GNR going after he left, and I don't think Slash and Duff talked to each other for a long time after that, but the live album reconnected them, and eventually the whole thing of how VR came together happened.

Gilby was dumped and sued GNR, so they had that to deal with during the implosion.

Duff also quit because he wanted to move back to Seattle and raise his family, but he still had work in LA, he still had family there but LA became pretty insignificant as far as "music scenes" go. Dave Grohl wasn't liking it either and he moved back east.

I'm assuming Tobias and Stradlin had some sort of history together no one's ever asked him about. It would be interesting to hear what Izzy thought about Axl bringing him into GNR, or why Slash would say he hated Tobias.

[magisme]

I'm gonna try to itemize this based on what we agree on and what we disagree on, wasted.

1. Not all Axl's Fault - Agree

2. More Axl's Fault than Others - Agree (different weightings but whatever)

3. Slash Says Stephanie Seymour Ballads Are Icky - Agree

4. Slash Said Some Negative Things About Axl - Agree

5. Slash Tried "to Destroy" Axl - Disagree (wut?)

6. Axl and Duff Didn't Like Slash's Songs as They Were - Agree

7. Slash Issued an Ultimatum on His Songs - Disagree (you say there's some evidence but I see none besides Axl's lone word)

[Turn_It_Up]

Fights over musical direction are being way overblown and were not the root source of the breakup. Those are natural discussions that eventually get worked out if solid personal relationships are intact. It was the booking of studio time and Axl being AWOL for months, the constantly being late on stage, the riots, etc. And then as Duff said the camp expanding and syncophants being barriers to constructive, direct dialog. By the end the fighting over musical differences was pretty much like a couple living together who grow to hate each other and are fighting over the couch. There was no longer the relationship stability within the band to work through most any issue, let alone discussions of musical direction.

Strip away all the bullshit, and Slash left for very much the same reasons as Finck and BH(and now possibly BF) and it wasn't musical direction. It was all the other crap you need to put up with. The only big difference is Slash was an equal partner in something huge and dug his heels in against Axl and tried to force some things the way he knew how. Like with the Snakepit material. Slash was tired of Axl trying to dictate most everything at that point, was tired of delays and general instability, so he shoved his material at Axl. You really think he wouldn't of welcomed Axl working on it if things weren't better between them?

Not saying it's 100% Axl's fault, that would be ridiculous. But the reality was his image was shit with the press and a lot of the public well before things went sour with Slash. What percentage of the public do you think even knows about the signing over of the band thing? If anything Slash said after the breakup stuck, it was because Axl's image was already set.

He wouldn't like it, but the best thing for Axl would be to be in a band of equal partners. Any band. But ain't gonna happen, that was a 1-and-done thing...

Edited July 10, 2014 by Turn_It_Up

[wasted]

I'm gonna try to itemize this based on what we agree on and what we disagree on, wasted.

1. Not all Axl's Fault - Agree

2. More Axl's Fault than Others - Agree (different weightings but whatever)

3. Slash Says Stephanie Seymour Ballads Are Icky - Agree

4. Slash Said Some Negative Things About Axl - Agree

5. Slash Tried "to Destroy" Axl - Disagree (wut?)

6. Axl and Duff Didn't Like Slash's Songs as They Were - Agree

7. Slash Issued an Ultimatum on His Songs - Disagree (you say there's some evidence but I see none besides Axl's lone word)

Seems fair. I'm guessing if Axl agreed to do Snakepit Slash would have stayed.

Destroy is a bit OTT. But he wasn't helping with the lawsuits and fueling the media. I think that's what it amounts to. It would be more honest to talk about how he couldn't work with Axl. Not all the stuff amout forcing them out or dictating the band.

[SoulMonster]

Fights over musical direction are being way overblown and were not the root source of the breakup.

If so it was overblown by Slash himself at the time when he left the band, because he did state that musical differences was the reason at that time in many interviews. Later, like in his biography, he would sort of go deeper emotionally when trying to explain his decision by pointing to Axl's flaws and his own flaws and their inherent incompatibility. So who are we to believe, Slash anno 1996 or Slash anno 2010?

I tend to think his reasons were complex and included both artistic disagreements and personality crashes, although I would be loath to try to quantify them. These weren't problems that arose in mid 90s, Axl and Slash had a tumultuous relationship as long as they were together (although it increased as Axl became more and more tyrannic) and they started to clash on musical direction already when AFD was made. The reason why Slash lasted all untill the 90s before leaving is, I believe, that Slash first had a viable exit at that time and that he felt they had succeeded with GN'R, and that the band has changed so much he felt it really wasn't worth fighting that much over any more.

[classicrawker]

Fights over musical direction are being way overblown and were not the root source of the breakup.

If so it was overblown by Slash himself at the time when he left the band, because he did state that musical differences was the reason at that time in many interviews. Later, like in his biography, he would sort of go deeper emotionally when trying to explain his decision by pointing to Axl's flaws and his own flaws and their inherent incompatibility. So who are we to believe, Slash anno 1996 or Slash anno 2010?

I tend to think his reasons were complex and included both artistic disagreements and personality crashes, although I would be loath to try to quantify them. These weren't problems that arose in mid 90s, Axl and Slash had a tumultuous relationship as long as they were together (although it increased as Axl became more and more tyrannic) and they started to clash on musical direction already when AFD was made. The reason why Slash lasted all untill the 90s before leaving is, I believe, that Slash first had a viable exit at that time and that he felt they had succeeded with GN'R, and that the band has changed so much he felt it really wasn't worth fighting that much over any more.

I think you are closer to the truth on the musical differences part........I am just speculating but after reading Slash's autobiography I believe he did not want to make an industrial album but would have given it a try if Axl had treated them all as equals instead of taking over the band with with the name grab and the employee contract demand............I think the 2007 Slash explanation is closer to the truth then the angry drugged up Slash comments about musical differences. I think there was no doubt musical differences involved but as you said there seems to be inferred other factors involved which finally made Slash say "fuck you" to Axl..........

[classicrawker]

I think wasted makes a lot of sense in this thread.

But CR is right, no? wasted is making claims without evidence, CR refutes those claims with evidence, wasted twists what CR is saying and repeats his now refuted claims or makes other claims with no evidence. Am I wrong?

Kind of. Because the question wasn't can wasted provide sources for all his professionally compiled evidence. It was more: is it all Axl's fault? I was initially just saying not really. Slash would do such and such or wanted to do stuff Duff didn't agree with either, there were a lot factors. So seeing some doubt people pick about the wordings but really the point is much broader. Of course Axl cause more trouble. Hello, riots? But in this situation Slash made some decisive decisions and then followed through in the media as if he was trying to destroy Axl. and people say why does Axl hate Slash? I point to possible reasons, they pick apart my posts for factual discrepancies, I mean even if I was telling the truth I'd still make mistakes. I kind of understand why Slash quit and even why he was pissed, but he brought it on himself in a way. He could have worked with Axl on his songs, he chose to openly say no way. Plus the Snakepit ultimatum stuff. Of course if it's actually true. But there's some evidence to suggest it is.

I'm not trying to be an asshole about this, wasted. I apologize if I've come off that way. But you've said some things.

Duff confirmed Axl's point that Slash wanted to do Snakepit as it was. Duff was with Axl and didn't agree. Axl and Duff had some ideas about it.

Izzy has also said Slash tried to take over on UYI (was this on Eddie Trunk around IRS leak) - unconfirmed yellow king endorsed evidence.

From what I've seen, Duff agreed with Axl that Slash's songs weren't up to par, but he never said Slash demanded Axl take them as is or not at all. As for the Izzy thing, I think you're just mistaken about that.

I'm sorry I didn't get Duff's exact quote. It was just the general jist. I think the Izzy thing is wrong until I find the transcript of the eddie trunk interview elton John story.

No actually it was more like " you are making a lot of claims Wasted about how things went down between Axl and Slash which don't jive with the history as we know it or what people have said in interviews so where are you getting your information from?"

Your quote of Duff about the Snakepit material was not in the "general gist" mate it was completely wrong as Duff never even hinted that Slash would not allow Axl to work on the songs.......

Izzy had issues with Slash about how the guitars were mixed as he feels Slash mixed his parts down in the mix but I have never heard Izzy say Slash tried to take over the UYI sessions......The comments I have read had more to do with how Izzy felt Slash stepped all over him during the recording process..........Axl also was not at many of the writing or band recording sessions as they had to send tapes to him at home for approval and then when the others parts were done they were given to Axl who did his part by himself so how does that translate into Slash taking over? ALso if you go read the Chinese Whispers website about the making of CHiDem Axl put everyone through similar gymnastics of not showing up to recording sessions or in some cases wanting stuff played over the phone for him...And wasn't part of the reason Buckethead quit the band because Axl rarely showed up to the studio and he got frustrated?

I certainly don't think Slash is innocent in the whole estrangement with Axl but some of the claims you were making were blatantly wrong and you just ignore it when people point this out and you continue to claim things that go against what we know or that you can't prove...that is my only issue with your posts mate............

Listen I have no issue if you want to believe Axl over Slash, Duff Gilby, Matt, Tom Z,, Alan Niven and a cast of others who tell the same stories but at least get your facts correct when you claim something.............

Edited July 10, 2014 by classicrawker

[SoulMonster]

I can't remember. This discussions has definitely fuelled my plan of making a page dedicated to every GN'R record with quotes from band member on the process of making that record. I've been toying with the idea for a while but just haven't had the time. I have to read all the books again, listen to all the audio interviews, and read through all my text interviews. Urk.

I just started:

http://www.a-4-d.com/t2527-live-like-a-suicide#9347

http://www.a-4-d.com/t2526-appetite-for-destruction#9346

Come back in 2015 and the pages might be finished...

[niceguy]

There is one thing I'm 100% sure of: Axl sincerely believes everything he says.

If Axl said the earth is flat, then I absolutely believe he believes that the earth is flat. I don't believe the earth is flat, but I believe that Axl believes it is.

[classicrawker]

There is one thing I'm 100% sure of: Axl sincerely believes everything he says.

If Axl said the earth is flat, then I absolutely believe he believes that the earth is flat. I don't believe the earth is flat, but I believe that Axl believes it is.

I think Marc Cantor had the most unbiased view on the whole Axl vs. Slash feud when he said that both of them are correct as they both believe their version of what happened is the truth...........and Wasted we do agree on one thing it certainly is not black and white........

[Crash Diet]

I can't remember. This discussions has definitely fuelled my plan of making a page dedicated to every GN'R record with quotes from band member on the process of making that record. I've been toying with the idea for a while but just haven't had the time. I have to read all the books again, listen to all the audio interviews, and read through all my text interviews. Urk.

I just started:

http://www.a-4-d.com/t2527-live-like-a-suicide#9347

http://www.a-4-d.com/t2526-appetite-for-destruction#9346

Come back in 2015 and the pages might be finished...

You know we often disagree on GNR, but you make a quality site with TONS of infos

Kudos

[dalsh327]

[classicrawker]

Geez Joe Perry is ageless!

Edited July 10, 2014 by classicrawker

[IncitingChaos]

I just read through this discussion and as far as the break up goes I sympathize with Axl much more. Not saying it's any less his fault but the guy went through some stuff.

As we understand Axl he is extreamly passionate and caring, but that can change in an instance. Following the breakup with Stephenie, Axl coasted through the remaining tour and when that was done he was left alone again. Which was fine until his two ex's sue take him to court and air the dirty laundry for the world to see. Not saying Axl didn't deserve that but he's a private guy and two people that he use to love completely rip him apart. It seems This would be the point Axl started to turn into this insane impossible to work with frontman.

He had the lawsuit hanging over his head, the label wants another record, and at this time people are either taking everything from him or wanting something from him. His temper likely got shorter and he probably began isolating himself more than he already had. He was in no condition to work with anyone. He lost touch with his friends, the fans, and the world for that matter.

The guy needed someone to sit him down and talk about what's going on in his head. He didn't need people complaining about how he composes songs or how the next record should be. The band should have taken a break. I think it hurt him that Slash did his own record. He probably felt out of touch with everyone but nobody was going to him to check on how he was doing. It was more about making him sing and getting something from him instead of actually caring about the guy.

I don't think Axl ever recovered from this period of time. He sought help through a therapist, psychiatrist, and that yoda person but he comes to find out they were just taking advantage of his money and they didn't care about him either.

Beta stays with Axl through this time and say what you want about her, but Axl found comfort in her at a time when nobody else cared about his well being. She cared about him and took care of him. That's why their bond is as strong as it is and why he's created his own family with her.

The band fell apart during this time because nobody understood or were too focused on themselves to care what was happening with each other.

Duff and Slash had an alcohol problem that needed to be fixed. Those guys are lucky to be alive. They needed someone to straighten them out. Axl just needed someone to care about him as a person and not as a singer.

They just lost touch with each other though. Axl's still bitter about this time period where he felt abandoned and Slash was mad that it was so difficult to get anything done. They really needed a break from the band and some time off. Instead they try to force it. I think Marc alludes to this in his chats.

Edited July 10, 2014 by IncitingChaos

[Amir]

There is one thing I'm 100% sure of: Axl sincerely believes everything he says.

If Axl said the earth is flat, then I absolutely believe he believes that the earth is flat. I don't believe the earth is flat, but I believe that Axl believes it is.

Funny you mention that...

Bottom right corner, list of links.

[dalsh327]

I just read through this discussion and as far as the break up goes I sympathize with Axl much more. Not saying it's any less his fault but the guy went through some stuff.

As we understand Axl he is extreamly passionate and caring, but that can change in an instance. Following the breakup with Stephenie, Axl coasted through the remaining tour and when that was done he was left alone again. Which was fine until his two ex's sue take him to court and air the dirty laundry for the world to see. Not saying Axl didn't deserve that but he's a private guy and two people that he use to love completely rip him apart. It seems This would be the point Axl started to turn into this insane impossible to work with frontman.

He had the lawsuit hanging over his head, the label wants another record, and at this time people are either taking everything from him or wanting something from him. His temper likely got shorter and he probably began isolating himself more than he already had. He was in no condition to work with anyone. He lost touch with his friends, the fans, and the world for that matter.

The guy needed someone to sit him down and talk about what's going on in his head. He didn't need people complaining about how he composes songs or how the next record should be. The band should have taken a break. I think it hurt him that Slash did his own record. He probably felt out of touch with everyone but nobody was going to him to check on how he was doing. It was more about making him sing and getting something from him instead of actually caring about the guy.

I don't think Axl ever recovered from this period of time. He sought help through a therapist, psychiatrist, and that yoda person but he comes to find out they were just taking advantage of his money and they didn't care about him either.

Beta stays with Axl through this time and say what you want about her, but Axl found comfort in her at a time when nobody else cared about his well being. She cared about him and took care of him. That's why their bond is as strong as it is and why he's created his own family with her.

The band fell apart during this time because nobody understood or were too focused on themselves to care what was happening with each other.

Duff and Slash had an alcohol problem that needed to be fixed. Those guys are lucky to be alive. They needed someone to straighten them out. Axl just needed someone to care about him as a person and not as a singer.

They just lost touch with each other though. Axl's still bitter about this time period where he felt abandoned and Slash was mad that it was so difficult to get anything done. They really needed a break from the band and some time off. Instead they try to force it. I think Marc alludes to this in his chats.

I don't think people realize how much of the courtroom stuff takes a toll on artists.

As far as the therapy and trips to Sedona - he'd have to answer whether any of that helped. It's like what they say about a self-help book, 99 percent of it can be bullshit, but if you got one or two lines out of it that helped, that's all that matters. Axl's well aware of the power of music that it has on people and as mentioned in that booklet, he hoped we got something out of the album that helped.

In a way, Chinese Democracy is like an incomplete book, there's a whole other part to it which paints a complete picture we've been waiting to hear, and until he and Del actually write the book about what did happen over those 15 years, there's always going to be questions around it.

Aerosmith were never that lofty when it came to the music.

[Apollo]

The band fell apart during this time because nobody understood or were too focused on themselves to care what was happening with each other.

Great post, I think you really hit the nail on the head.

I still think the best thing they could have done was just take a couple years off from each other. And then when they got back together hired a really competent and professional manager/producer so the focus could have been 100% about the music instead of about their personal feelings towards each other.