Joe Perry: "I had great hopes of GNR carrying the torch"

[classicrawker]

The band fell apart during this time because nobody understood or were too focused on themselves to care what was happening with each other.

Great post, I think you really hit the nail on the head.

I still think the best thing they could have done was just take a couple years off from each other. And then when they got back together hired a really competent and professional manager/producer so the focus could have been 100% about the music instead of about their personal feelings towards each other.

The problem with that is Axl had already made his power play for control of the band by the time the UYI tour was over and Izzy had quit before that so the damage had already been done...I am not convinced that situation was fixable at that point considering Axl's desire to control everything and things just slowly deteriorated from there...............

[maynard]

by reading that booklet amir posted all i can think of is: axl is so weird. somebody shop that "in memory of sharon maynard" to "in honor of my dear friend maynard" please.

[iftheworld]

I believe Slash quit GNR in 96 because no progress was being made towards getting an album out and touring. And also the conflicting musical direction Axl and him were having.

The fact is that EVERYONE blames Axl for the demise of Guns N Roses, Izzy , Steven, Duff, Slash, and all the people in the inner GNR circle...

Ive recently been on a health kick and I think Axl has or had something called Candida Overgrowth. It makes people have mood swings, causes anxiety and depression , causes hair loss and also bloating. He mentions parasites crawling up your ass and eating out your stomach lining in the Don't Cry documentary and also in Craig Duswalts book he says how Axl had bags of Epsom salt with him thruout the UYI tour (Epsom salt is used to bath in to detoxify the body) It could be the reason why Axl is the way he is....

No.

[tinyrobot]

Some stuff on musical differences from Chinese Whispers:

"At one point he said he was gonna a solo project, then he decided his solo-project he could do with Guns, which I was like, after doing all those videos and this and that and the other, I was like: "No". [laughs] No, I don't wanna get involved in any kind of Stephanie Seymour ballads or any of that shit." (Slash, Canadian Radio, 04/20/95)

"On the first Snakepit-record I used some ideas which were really planned for the next GN'R-record, but Axl and I disagreed on the future direction of the band. I played Axl a demo with some of my ideas for songs, and all he said was: "I don't feel like playing this kind of music." I answered: "But this could be a excellent Gunner-record, hundred percent in GN'R style." He didn't really care 'cause he only wanted to play industrial and Pearl Jam-sounding crap." (Slash, 'Rock Hard' Magazine, 03/00)

"The Snakepit album could have been the new GNR album, but Axl didn't think it was good enough." (Matt, 1996)

"Kerrang!: How's the next GN'R album progressing?

Gilby: "There is no 'next GN'R album'!"

K!: EVER?!

G: "I don't know about ever. For now. We started working on one, and it got canned."

K!: How come?

G: Well, it's an Axl thing. He just wasn't into what we were doing, so he's kind of rethinking what he wants to do. He just kind of threw a wrench into everything that me, Slash and Matt had worked to. And then Duff came in. Duff and Axl have an idea what the album should be, and the rest of us have another idea." (Gilby, Kerrang, 05/24/94)

"What people don't know is, the [slash's] Snakepit album, that is the Guns N' Roses album. I just wouldn't do it. [...] Duff walked out on it, and I walked out on it, because I wasn't allowed to be any part of it. It's like, 'No, you do this, that's how it is.'" (Axl, MTV, 11/08/99)

"One of the points of contention between Slash and Axl was a batch of songs Slash brought to the table. Axl thought it was Southern rock - not Guns N’ Roses material. I backed Axl." (Duff, Autobiography)

"I didn’t walk till several months after having 3-4-hour phone conversations nearly every day with Slash, trying to reach a compromise. I was specifically told no lyrics, no melodies, no changes to anything and to sing what I was told or fuck off." (Axl, MyGNR, 12/14/08)

"And I didn't believe in it. I thought that there were riffs and parts and some ideas, I thought, that needed to be developed. I had no problem working on it, or working with it, but you know, as is, I think I'm with the public on that one." (Axl, MTV, 11/08/99)

"My last conversation with [Axl] was when he called me and was trying to explain what he wanted to do. And, basically, it was: I want to change the sound of the band. You know, I want to go more into a current direction. You know, I want to use, you know, more industrial type things. You know, he was really into bands like Jane's Addiction, Pearl Jam and Nine Inch Nails. And I just kinda laughed and said: You know, look - I want to play guitar in a loud version of The Rolling Stones, you know?" (Gilby, Spin, 07/99)

"All of a sudden, after the album was finished, [Axl] goes: "Remember those tapes I have. You know, I want to..." He didn't know we'd finished the record. And he goes: "This song, this song, this song, this song and this song." And I went: "Dude, we finished it already. It's gone". And he goes: "You couldn't have done an album in two weeks." I said: "Oh yeah. I can". You can do that. And it turned into a big fight." (Slash, Canadian Radio, 04/20/95)

"G: Was it true about Axl wanting to sue you over use of songs?

S: Yeah. At one point he didn't like the songs, and all of a sudden he wanted them and the [snakepit] record was already done. That set me off. What the f.ck is that? It turned into a bit of a fight." (Slash, Metal Edge, 10/95)

The solution to the puzzles lies clearly in those quotes. That's all we need to know. Now, it's clear Axl and Slash "broke up" due to musical differences in first place, the personal part is just a consequence of this.

As a GN'R fan from the first hour, I have to side a bit more with Axl than Slash. I think Axl knows how to make a radio hit better than Slash. But Slash didn't want any more November Rain or Estranged. I feel he wanted something closer to AFD (as in more rocker songs, less videos, only 1 catchy ballad).

Probably, at that point, Slash was fed up with Axl obsessing about Stephanie Seymour and when he heard "This I Love" he wanted to shoot his balls (i feel ya bro'). Here I agree with Slash: more songs and videos about Stephanie was insane. I understand him not wanting to be associated to such a psychotic obsessive thing. But he could have negotiated it better... actually, I guess he tried and Axl took it as "I was told no lyrics, no melodies, no change..."

How do you talk Axl out of not writing about the horrible moment he was going through? He's an artist. He was having trouble overcoming the break up with his girlfriend and he wanted to take it off his chest by singing songs about it. On the other hand, Slash, didn't want to hear about all that drama anymore. Which is understandable because there are already 3 songs/videos related to Seymour. Probably, Slash thought that if he had allowed Axl to keep writing/singing about his personal life, then GN'R would have actually become Axl's solo band. The solution here would have been Axl's solo album.

Now this is CLASSIC:

"All of a sudden, after the album was finished, [Axl] goes: "Remember those tapes I have. You know, I want to..." He didn't know we'd finished the record. And he goes: "This song, this song, this song, this song and this song." And I went: "Dude, we finished it already. It's gone". And he goes: "You couldn't have done an album in two weeks." I said: "Oh yeah. I can". You can do that. And it turned into a big fight." (Slash, Canadian Radio, 04/20/95)

Paints the essence of them both.... Axl telling Slash "You couldn't have done an album in two weeks".... Is there any doubt left on why Axl took 13 years to make CD?

And Slash replying: "Oh yeah, I can.".... Is there any doubt left on why Slash has produced so much music since he left GN'R?

While one takes decades to overcome relationships, solve problems and decide on what music he wants to make, the other one is a quick-solver, hands-on, too cool to care individual who quickly moves on and keeps living life. Axl got stuck in 1993 and even though he made Chinese Democracy, what came out of it was not worth taking all that time.

Now, to Axl's credit... I think ChinDem is way better than anything Slash has written so far and if Slash would have had more patience and been more flexible with Axl, a Chinese Democracy with Slash guitars on would have been a masterpiece.

From those quotes above it looks that there was one minute, one moment in history when Axl took a step back and was actually willing to work on Slash material, however Slash, being that quick-solver kind of guy and probably fed up with Axl, or misguided by his own demons, alcohol addiction or whatever, decided to record an album in two weeks and forever leave Axl behind. I guess that's the exact minute in GN'R history when Slash made the mistake of his life.

I can understand why Axl feels betrayed by Slash, who probably in a fit of madness or rage or frustration did what he did. It was wrong not to tell Axl he was going to do that, even if its material Slash wrote, if they were working on it for Guns N' Roses, it should have been discussed.

[tinyrobot]

One more curiosity I realized about those quotes....

While Slash and the others talk about actual demos and songs shown to Axl, they never mention Axl's demos... Why is that? They only mention Axl TALKING about how he wanted GN'R to sound... abit like NIN, a bit like Pearl Jam... yeah, ok, we can all do that... but did Axl actually take the time to write and record demos to show his bandmates what he wanted to do?

It impresses me how everybody wanted to hear Chinese Democracy to finally understand what Axl wanted!!! What?? Are you saying he NEVER cared to defend his ideas by recording some shit for them to hear and understand what he wanted???

[Bards]

For those that really believe that Slash said to Axl that he had to take the Snakepit material as is and not make any changes to it whatsoever: Slash let Eric Dover write his own lyrics and melodies for that record. ERIC DOVER.

"Had Slash stepped up and written what we captured glimpses of, it would have created an environment that was beyond Slash’s ability to control.

I still don't know what Axl means by this.

[RussTCB]

by reading that booklet amir posted all i can think of is: axl is so weird. somebody shop that "in memory of sharon maynard" to "in honor of my dear friend maynard" please.

If I had any skills, I'd do that for you. That'd be hilarious.

[classicrawker]

Some stuff on musical differences from Chinese Whispers:

"At one point he said he was gonna a solo project, then he decided his solo-project he could do with Guns, which I was like, after doing all those videos and this and that and the other, I was like: "No". [laughs] No, I don't wanna get involved in any kind of Stephanie Seymour ballads or any of that shit." (Slash, Canadian Radio, 04/20/95)

"On the first Snakepit-record I used some ideas which were really planned for the next GN'R-record, but Axl and I disagreed on the future direction of the band. I played Axl a demo with some of my ideas for songs, and all he said was: "I don't feel like playing this kind of music." I answered: "But this could be a excellent Gunner-record, hundred percent in GN'R style." He didn't really care 'cause he only wanted to play industrial and Pearl Jam-sounding crap." (Slash, 'Rock Hard' Magazine, 03/00)

"The Snakepit album could have been the new GNR album, but Axl didn't think it was good enough." (Matt, 1996)

"Kerrang!: How's the next GN'R album progressing?

Gilby: "There is no 'next GN'R album'!"

K!: EVER?!

G: "I don't know about ever. For now. We started working on one, and it got canned."

K!: How come?

G: Well, it's an Axl thing. He just wasn't into what we were doing, so he's kind of rethinking what he wants to do. He just kind of threw a wrench into everything that me, Slash and Matt had worked to. And then Duff came in. Duff and Axl have an idea what the album should be, and the rest of us have another idea." (Gilby, Kerrang, 05/24/94)

"What people don't know is, the [slash's] Snakepit album, that is the Guns N' Roses album. I just wouldn't do it. [...] Duff walked out on it, and I walked out on it, because I wasn't allowed to be any part of it. It's like, 'No, you do this, that's how it is.'" (Axl, MTV, 11/08/99)

"One of the points of contention between Slash and Axl was a batch of songs Slash brought to the table. Axl thought it was Southern rock - not Guns N’ Roses material. I backed Axl." (Duff, Autobiography)

"I didn’t walk till several months after having 3-4-hour phone conversations nearly every day with Slash, trying to reach a compromise. I was specifically told no lyrics, no melodies, no changes to anything and to sing what I was told or fuck off." (Axl, MyGNR, 12/14/08)

"And I didn't believe in it. I thought that there were riffs and parts and some ideas, I thought, that needed to be developed. I had no problem working on it, or working with it, but you know, as is, I think I'm with the public on that one." (Axl, MTV, 11/08/99)

"My last conversation with [Axl] was when he called me and was trying to explain what he wanted to do. And, basically, it was: I want to change the sound of the band. You know, I want to go more into a current direction. You know, I want to use, you know, more industrial type things. You know, he was really into bands like Jane's Addiction, Pearl Jam and Nine Inch Nails. And I just kinda laughed and said: You know, look - I want to play guitar in a loud version of The Rolling Stones, you know?" (Gilby, Spin, 07/99)

"All of a sudden, after the album was finished, [Axl] goes: "Remember those tapes I have. You know, I want to..." He didn't know we'd finished the record. And he goes: "This song, this song, this song, this song and this song." And I went: "Dude, we finished it already. It's gone". And he goes: "You couldn't have done an album in two weeks." I said: "Oh yeah. I can". You can do that. And it turned into a big fight." (Slash, Canadian Radio, 04/20/95)

"G: Was it true about Axl wanting to sue you over use of songs?

S: Yeah. At one point he didn't like the songs, and all of a sudden he wanted them and the [snakepit] record was already done. That set me off. What the f.ck is that? It turned into a bit of a fight." (Slash, Metal Edge, 10/95)

The solution to the puzzles lies clearly in those quotes. That's all we need to know. Now, it's clear Axl and Slash "broke up" due to musical differences in first place, the personal part is just a consequence of this.

As a GN'R fan from the first hour, I have to side a bit more with Axl than Slash. I think Axl knows how to make a radio hit better than Slash. But Slash didn't want any more November Rain or Estranged. I feel he wanted something closer to AFD (as in more rocker songs, less videos, only 1 catchy ballad).

Probably, at that point, Slash was fed up with Axl obsessing about Stephanie Seymour and when he heard "This I Love" he wanted to shoot his balls (i feel ya bro'). Here I agree with Slash: more songs and videos about Stephanie was insane. I understand him not wanting to be associated to such a psychotic obsessive thing. But he could have negotiated it better... actually, I guess he tried and Axl took it as "I was told no lyrics, no melodies, no change..."

How do you talk Axl out of not writing about the horrible moment he was going through? He's an artist. He was having trouble overcoming the break up with his girlfriend and he wanted to take it off his chest by singing songs about it. On the other hand, Slash, didn't want to hear about all that drama anymore. Which is understandable because there are already 3 songs/videos related to Seymour. Probably, Slash thought that if he had allowed Axl to keep writing/singing about his personal life, then GN'R would have actually become Axl's solo band. The solution here would have been Axl's solo album.

Now this is CLASSIC:

"All of a sudden, after the album was finished, [Axl] goes: "Remember those tapes I have. You know, I want to..." He didn't know we'd finished the record. And he goes: "This song, this song, this song, this song and this song." And I went: "Dude, we finished it already. It's gone". And he goes: "You couldn't have done an album in two weeks." I said: "Oh yeah. I can". You can do that. And it turned into a big fight." (Slash, Canadian Radio, 04/20/95)

Paints the essence of them both.... Axl telling Slash "You couldn't have done an album in two weeks".... Is there any doubt left on why Axl took 13 years to make CD?

And Slash replying: "Oh yeah, I can.".... Is there any doubt left on why Slash has produced so much music since he left GN'R?

While one takes decades to overcome relationships, solve problems and decide on what music he wants to make, the other one is a quick-solver, hands-on, too cool to care individual who quickly moves on and keeps living life. Axl got stuck in 1993 and even though he made Chinese Democracy, what came out of it was not worth taking all that time.

Now, to Axl's credit... I think ChinDem is way better than anything Slash has written so far and if Slash would have had more patience and been more flexible with Axl, a Chinese Democracy with Slash guitars on would have been a masterpiece.

From those quotes above it looks that there was one minute, one moment in history when Axl took a step back and was actually willing to work on Slash material, however Slash, being that quick-solver kind of guy and probably fed up with Axl, or misguided by his own demons, alcohol addiction or whatever, decided to record an album in two weeks and forever leave Axl behind. I guess that's the exact minute in GN'R history when Slash made the mistake of his life.

I can understand why Axl feels betrayed by Slash, who probably in a fit of madness or rage or frustration did what he did. It was wrong not to tell Axl he was going to do that, even if its material Slash wrote, if they were working on it for Guns N' Roses, it should have been discussed.

I am still stumped by some peoples attitude that Slash did Axl some great wrong by putting out the Snakepit material and eventually quitting the band.......it is as if they completely forget what a dick Axl was to work with and how he fought for the rights to the name of the band and wanted them all to become his employees. So Axl did this shit to them and they should have been more understanding of his feelings? Really?

SO if you started a company with someone as equal partners and at some point that person worked it so he was the sole owner of the company and wanted to make you an employee instead of an equal partner you would not be pissed off at that person?

Regarding the Snakepit material Axl passed on it so your claim they were working on it together is flawed...IMHO Slash had no obligation to ask Axl's permission to put this out on his own as he did..why do you feel Slash owed this to Axl?

Maybe I am the crazy one here but I just don't follow some peoples logic that Axl was the victim here..................

Edited July 10, 2014 by classicrawker

[dalsh327]

I had great hopes of Music From Another Dimension being as good as Rocks.

As far as an album taking 2 weeks? If Axl's good friends with Elton, he needs to ask him how long it took to record Goodbye Yellow Brick Road, and they had to change recording studios. McCartney was able to finish 3 songs in one day when he was in The Beatles.

(it was as long as Pink Floyd spent on Dark Side of the Moon in the studio).

Edited July 10, 2014 by dalsh327

[tinyrobot]

I am still stumped by some peoples attitude that Slash did Axl some great wrong by putting out the Snakepit material and eventually quitting the band.......it is as if they completely forget what a dick Axl was to work with and how he fought for the rights to the name of the band and wanted them all to become his employees. So Axl did this shit to them and they should have been more understanding of his feelings? Really?

SO if you started a company with someone as equal partners and at some point that person worked it so he was the sole owner of the company and wanted to make you an employee instead of an equal partner you would not be pissed off at that person?

Regarding the Snakepit material Axl passed on it so your claim they were working on it together is flawed...IMHO Slash had no obligation to ask Axl's permission to put this out on his own as he did..why do you feel Slash owed this to Axl?

Maybe I am the crazy one here but I just don't follow some peoples logic that Axl was the victim here..................

That entirely depends on the working ethics and general ethics of people.

I never said Axl was a victim, didn't you read or have problems interpreting? I highlighted how much I understand Slash being fed up with Axl's ways. But there are professional ways to end a work relationship and scandalous shitty ways to do it too.

Slash wrote stuff, showed it to Axl... why showed to Axl? Because it was meant to be for Guns N' Roses... duh!!

Yeah, Axl passed on it but apparently he regretted later and tried to work it out with Slash once again. That's when Slash surprised him with the news.... Not saying he had to "ask permission" to Axl to use his own material, but wasn't he still "in the company" he started with Axl?

Well, my ethics tell me that if I was in the same situation I would have ended it with Axl first by saying "listen dude, I can't wait anymore. I want to make music and I will use the material I showed you since you don't like it, don't want it. I do like it and I will make an album with it. Bye."

Is it so hard to be and act in a honest way?

As for rest, I think you didn't read half shit of what I wrote and decided to attack my POV from just by the glimpse of the first paragraph. Do yourself a favor and read again.

[wasted]

Not sure if Axl is the victim, but depending on which quote you read Axl passed on or wasn't allowed to develop it or be involved. Axl maybe wanted to use some of it, use some parts, add his songs. Gilby says there were two sides. We are really trying to reach a definitive answer off loose quotes. What you can say is the writing process isn't how GNR had done it before. With just Slash bringing in the material.

I think it's true that Axl owning the name really is the back drop to it. As Axl was probably acting like he was the band, Slash countered that with this is the album. It had a negative effect. It provided security to Axl in case of a disaster but made them feel undermined. I can't see the the upside other than maybe getting them to straighten up, they were in bad shape when they signed. What happened to both S & D makes me wonder what kind of condition they were in to really go and tour another record like the Sankepit even with Axl adding his songs. I feel like they dodged a bullet.

To me given what was going on in music, Slash's stuff kind of aligns more with the grunge bands, he can hold his head up with those guys, its not got a bunch of gay ballads on there. Whereas Axl as we know was into that but also NIN, hip hop, a wide variety. Plus Queen and Elton shaping stuff. So Axl was probably thinking about doing something a bit more like UYI with extra elements thrown, not a more grungey AFD type thing. But I think he would have worked the best of Slash into the record, especially rockers and working more like on Nov Rain/Estranged on SOD, TWAT, Catcher, TIL type material. But it's a longer process and I just think Slash didn't want to. He was sick of waiting for Axl, especially when he had material.

The one thing Axl had going for him is he would of collaborated with Slash on a more UYI type record. But Slash seemed like he didn't want to do that.

From Slash's book I got the feeling he wanted to get back on the road. He was like a fish out of water hanging around the house. He wasn't up for a long drawn out recording process and another huge GNR record and tour.

After leaving GNR I don't think Slash should have made out like it was Axl that stopped it happening, because it was more complicated than just Axl wouldn't do Slash's material.

I think though Axl working on Snakepit or just doing as is would have saved the band for the time being. The thing with Gilby is he was Slash aligned, so that would shape the band. And with Slash not willing to work on Axl's material, Axl was pretty stumped. He needs someone like Tobias to get his material done. Without there was less of a go between the sides. There's the band, then Axl with no one to play with. The band is doing heavy rock n roll and Axl is dreaming of something else.

[classicrawker]

I am still stumped by some peoples attitude that Slash did Axl some great wrong by putting out the Snakepit material and eventually quitting the band.......it is as if they completely forget what a dick Axl was to work with and how he fought for the rights to the name of the band and wanted them all to become his employees. So Axl did this shit to them and they should have been more understanding of his feelings? Really?

SO if you started a company with someone as equal partners and at some point that person worked it so he was the sole owner of the company and wanted to make you an employee instead of an equal partner you would not be pissed off at that person?

Regarding the Snakepit material Axl passed on it so your claim they were working on it together is flawed...IMHO Slash had no obligation to ask Axl's permission to put this out on his own as he did..why do you feel Slash owed this to Axl?

Maybe I am the crazy one here but I just don't follow some peoples logic that Axl was the victim here..................

That entirely depends on the working ethics and general ethics of people.

I never said Axl was a victim, didn't you read or have problems interpreting? I highlighted how much I understand Slash being fed up with Axl's ways. But there are professional ways to end a work relationship and scandalous shitty ways to do it too.

Slash wrote stuff, showed it to Axl... why showed to Axl? Because it was meant to be for Guns N' Roses... duh!!

Yeah, Axl passed on it but apparently he regretted later and tried to work it out with Slash once again. That's when Slash surprised him with the news.... Not saying he had to "ask permission" to Axl to use his own material, but wasn't he still "in the company" he started with Axl?

Well, my ethics tell me that if I was in the same situation I would have ended it with Axl first by saying "listen dude, I can't wait anymore. I want to make music and I will use the material I showed you since you don't like it, don't want it. I do like it and I will make an album with it. Bye."

Is it so hard to be and act in a honest way?

As for rest, I think you didn't read half shit of what I wrote and decided to attack my POV from just by the glimpse of the first paragraph. Do yourself a favor and read again.

I have no problem reading mate but your post does imply Axl was the victim for Slash taking the Snakepit material solo claiming it was "scandalous" ................

As far as the Snakepit material is concerned Axl and Duff both shot it down so why does Slash need to discuss with Axl what he does with it? he offered it up and they did not like so Axl should not have gotten so twisted when Slash did something with it........funny but Duff did not seem to care.............Considering they were barely talking back then why should he have to go back to Axl again and let him know he was going to use the material himself and have to deal with the bullshit Axl would have thrown at him?...considering Axl pushed Paul Huge and Zakk Wilde on Slash and the whole Sympathy overdub controversy without asking if he was cool with it I don't think Axl has any right to complain about not begin consulted.... pretty "scandalous" things Axl did if you ask me............

And since you are so big on ethics how ethical was the way Axl got the band name rights and then tried to make them all his employees?.........see you can't have it both ways mate........... you want people to be considerate to you have to return the favour......you know the old "do unto others" saying?..............

Edited July 11, 2014 by classicrawker

[DR DOOM]

To put things in perspective, it's worth mentioning that Slash hadn't heard Axl sing since the last show they did in 93- he and the others certainly made an effort to get the ball rolling again but during those sessions Axl was either absent or showed up in the wee hours and didn't sing.

[tinyrobot]

Exactly

Not sure if Axl is the victim, but depending on which quote you read Axl passed on or wasn't allowed to develop it or be involved. Axl maybe wanted to use some of it, use some parts, add his songs. Gilby says there were two sides. We are really trying to reach a definitive answer off loose quotes. What you can say is the writing process isn't how GNR had done it before. With just Slash bringing in the material.

I'm inclined to believe Axl passed on it first, then regretted. Called Slash to work on it but Slash had already made the Snakepit album. That's the main reason for why Axl hates Slash and feels betrayed. Slash made a smart move and Axl didn't see it coming.

I also don't understand why was Slash the only one with "material"... What was Axl doing? I know "This I Love" was around that time (and probably this is the song that made Slash puke, lol) but what other ChinDem songs were created in the years Slash was still around? Did he ever get to HEAR what Axl wanted or Axl just let time pass by, talking about the music, but not actually showing his bandmates what he truly wanted?

I think it's true that Axl owning the name really is the back drop to it. As Axl was probably acting like he was the band, Slash countered that with this is the album. It had a negative effect. It provided security to Axl in case of a disaster but made them feel undermined. I can't see the the upside other than maybe getting them to straighten up, they were in bad shape when they signed. What happened to both S & D makes me wonder what kind of condition they were in to really go and tour another record like the Sankepit even with Axl adding his songs. I feel like they dodged a bullet.

I agree with you on this one too... the problem is they accepted this deal and once you willingly put your sign on something you can't complain later

Axl was acting like he was the band by bringing songs like Don't Cry, November Rain and Estranged, making movie-videos of his relationship with Seymour, which obviously left the rest of the band looking like his employees... Slash must have heard TIL and be like "oooooh not agaaaaain".... LOL... I can totally relate to that. I hate TIL.

To me given what was going on in music, Slash's stuff kind of aligns more with the grunge bands, he can hold his head up with those guys, its not got a bunch of gay ballads on there. Whereas Axl as we know was into that but also NIN, hip hop, a wide variety. Plus Queen and Elton shaping stuff. So Axl was probably thinking about doing something a bit more like UYI with extra elements thrown, not a more grungey AFD type thing. But I think he would have worked the best of Slash into the record, especially rockers and working more like on Nov Rain/Estranged on SOD, TWAT, Catcher, TIL type material. But it's a longer process and I just think Slash didn't want to. He was sick of waiting for Axl, especially when he had material.

Hmmm... Slash and grunge? No way.... I think its like Axl described... southern rock sound, bluesy stuff, old hard-rock style...

I appreciate Axl trying to be more open, he was acting like a visionary, but he shouldn't have mentions NIN or Pearl Jam. NIN is unique and any other band trying to be NIN or playing NIN sound will definitely screw up... I can't imagine Axl singing Reznor's songs.... Maybe he was wrong with all that...

From Slash's book I got the feeling he wanted to get back on the road. He was like a fish out of water hanging around the house. He wasn't up for a long drawn out recording process and another huge GNR record and tour.

Certainly. Slash is a hands-on guy. He wanted to make a record and that's it... Axl wanted to make a masterpiece and take years to develope it....

[tinyrobot]

I have no problem reading mate but your post does imply Axl was the victim for Slash taking the Snakepit material solo claiming it was "scandalous" ................

As far as the Snakepit material is concerned Axl and Duff both shot it down so why does Slash need to discuss with Axl what he does with it? he offered it up and they did not like so Axl should not have gotten so twisted when Slash did something with it........funny but Duff did not seem to care.............Considering they were barely talking back then why should he have to go back to Axl again and let him know he was going to use the material himself and have to deal with the bullshit Axl would have thrown at him?...considering Axl pushed Paul Huge and Zakk Wilde on Slash and the whole Sympathy overdub controversy without asking if he was cool with it I don't think Axl has any right to complain about not begin consulted.... pretty "scandalous" things Axl did if you ask me............

And since you are so big on ethics how ethical was the way Axl got the band name rights and then tried to make them all his employees?.........see you can't have it both ways mate........... you want people to be considerate to you have to return the favour......you know the old "do unto others" saying?..............

Axl ain't no victim and I never made him look like a victim or anything of the sort. You love using that word so you can victimize Slash as well... LOL

You ask why? well, in my opinion, when you come across a person who plays unfair and has a big ego, if you are any better than them, you must act as the bigger person. And that would be playing fair til the end and teach them a lesson.

Slash chose to do something that I call revenge. He must have been so fed up and infuriated he decided to do something that would piss Axl off forever and ever, probably as a response to all of those moments you mention when Axl took a shit on his bandmates face

I would never act in such way, even if on the other end, there is a person like Axl. But I repeat, that's me

Doesn't matter if they weren't talking or whatever. They still had a band, didn't they? Looks like no one really wanted to be there though, but you are never out of a relationship until you sit down with the other/s and call it quits.

So technically, Slash was in GN'R and the material he presented first was meant for GN'R.

Not sure if Axl knew or didn't know Slash was going solo....... but as you can see, lack of communication is retarded when you are in a team. Playing mad, acting upset and ignoring will only make things worse.

[gunsnchains123]

It really depends on the band, Pearl Jam are always evolving and getting better IMO, Linkin Park took a huge change then had to regress to get fans back, The Hunting Party is a perfect mix, Silverchair & Alice In Chains are probably the most easiest bands to describe, they've both evolved dramatically but if you go one album at a time you can see the gradual shift, if you told someone to listen to Frogstomp then YM they'd shoot you so have to work on it with Neon Ballroom then Diorama, Guns changed a lot from AFD to Chi Dem, but not as big as a change from UYI to Chi Dem.

[wasted]

I see a bigger change from AFD to UYI than UYI to CD.

Slash seemed to rush Snakepit. The idea of doing a GNR album without Izzy or Axl songs needs careful consideration.

Slashs open refusal to do Axl songs and Axl wanting to work on some songs on Snakepit forces me to think its more Slashs fault.

Then the way he lied about it to the media making it seem like Axl forced him out...it was unnecessary.

It makes no sense to me. Why not just hang in there and take easy for a while and stay in GNR.

Id buy Slash had no intention of doing a GNR album with Axl because of not being and equal partner. That coupled with Axl being late to shows meant he wanted out. But these are his choices. He signed the contracts and Axl being late isnt that big a deal. Just don't come early.

Edited July 11, 2014 by wasted

[classicrawker]

I have no problem reading mate but your post does imply Axl was the victim for Slash taking the Snakepit material solo claiming it was "scandalous" ................

As far as the Snakepit material is concerned Axl and Duff both shot it down so why does Slash need to discuss with Axl what he does with it? he offered it up and they did not like so Axl should not have gotten so twisted when Slash did something with it........funny but Duff did not seem to care.............Considering they were barely talking back then why should he have to go back to Axl again and let him know he was going to use the material himself and have to deal with the bullshit Axl would have thrown at him?...considering Axl pushed Paul Huge and Zakk Wilde on Slash and the whole Sympathy overdub controversy without asking if he was cool with it I don't think Axl has any right to complain about not begin consulted.... pretty "scandalous" things Axl did if you ask me............

And since you are so big on ethics how ethical was the way Axl got the band name rights and then tried to make them all his employees?.........see you can't have it both ways mate........... you want people to be considerate to you have to return the favour......you know the old "do unto others" saying?..............

Axl ain't no victim and I never made him look like a victim or anything of the sort. You love using that word so you can victimize Slash as well... LOL

You ask why? well, in my opinion, when you come across a person who plays unfair and has a big ego, if you are any better than them, you must act as the bigger person. And that would be playing fair til the end and teach them a lesson.

Slash chose to do something that I call revenge. He must have been so fed up and infuriated he decided to do something that would piss Axl off forever and ever, probably as a response to all of those moments you mention when Axl took a shit on his bandmates face

I would never act in such way, even if on the other end, there is a person like Axl. But I repeat, that's me

Doesn't matter if they weren't talking or whatever. They still had a band, didn't they? Looks like no one really wanted to be there though, but you are never out of a relationship until you sit down with the other/s and call it quits.

So technically, Slash was in GN'R and the material he presented first was meant for GN'R.

Not sure if Axl knew or didn't know Slash was going solo....... but as you can see, lack of communication is retarded when you are in a team. Playing mad, acting upset and ignoring will only make things worse.

Revenge? where are you getting that from? Axl turned down the songs and Slash decided to release them........ I don't see any revenge factor in that..........In fact Slash was still talking about doing the next Guns album even after he released the Snakepit material so he still and hoped there would be a next Guns album....your revenge theory is just that a theory and not based in fact as you have no idea what Slash was thinking at the time.........

And of course it matters if they weren't talking....this idea that Slash should have been the bigger man is BS....As is evident in his book he and the others had catered to Axl's moods long enough and he had reached his limit of patience which is why he quit......It is easy for you to say you would not have handled it that way as you did not have to put up with Axl's megalomania...if you would most likely be singing a different tune..........

[classicrawker]

I see a bigger change from AFD to UYI than UYI to CD.

Slash seemed to rush Snakepit. The idea of doing a GNR album without Izzy or Axl songs needs careful consideration.

Slashs open refusal to do Axl songs and Axl wanting to work on some songs on Snakepit forces me to think its more Slashs fault.

Then the way he lied about it to the media making it seem like Axl forced him out...it was unnecessary.

It makes no sense to me. Why not just hang in there and take easy for a while and stay in GNR.

Id buy Slash had no intention of doing a GNR album with Axl because of not being and equal partner. That coupled with Axl being late to shows meant he wanted out. But these are his choices. He signed the contracts and Axl being late isnt that big a deal. Just don't come early.

Where did Slash refuse to work on Axl's songs? again please provide proof of this..there is no proof anywhere that Axl actually presented music that Slash refused to work on.....How do you think the Snakepit material happened? Axl would not show up to rehearsals and Gilby, Matt and Slash worked up the music...if Axl had music for Slash to work on where is it now? and you still refuse to acknowledge that Slash released the Snakepit album after Axl turned them down..........it was a done deal mate Axl missed the boat so how is this Slash's fault?

Slash wrote the Snakepit music and offered it for the next album so your claim he had no intention of doing a new Guns album is without merit...in fact he jammed with Zakk Wylde after Axl forced him into he equation so he did try to get it togther for a new album.

And considering Izzy, Duff and Slash said part of the reasons they quit was Axl going on stage late I would say it was a big deal to them..............

[wasted]

Exactly

Not sure if Axl is the victim, but depending on which quote you read Axl passed on or wasn't allowed to develop it or be involved. Axl maybe wanted to use some of it, use some parts, add his songs. Gilby says there were two sides. We are really trying to reach a definitive answer off loose quotes. What you can say is the writing process isn't how GNR had done it before. With just Slash bringing in the material.

I'm inclined to believe Axl passed on it first, then regretted. Called Slash to work on it but Slash had already made the Snakepit album. That's the main reason for why Axl hates Slash and feels betrayed. Slash made a smart move and Axl didn't see it coming.

I also don't understand why was Slash the only one with "material"... What was Axl doing? I know "This I Love" was around that time (and probably this is the song that made Slash puke, lol) but what other ChinDem songs were created in the years Slash was still around? Did he ever get to HEAR what Axl wanted or Axl just let time pass by, talking about the music, but not actually showing his bandmates what he truly wanted?

I think it's true that Axl owning the name really is the back drop to it. As Axl was probably acting like he was the band, Slash countered that with this is the album. It had a negative effect. It provided security to Axl in case of a disaster but made them feel undermined. I can't see the the upside other than maybe getting them to straighten up, they were in bad shape when they signed. What happened to both S & D makes me wonder what kind of condition they were in to really go and tour another record like the Sankepit even with Axl adding his songs. I feel like they dodged a bullet.

I agree with you on this one too... the problem is they accepted this deal and once you willingly put your sign on something you can't complain later

Axl was acting like he was the band by bringing songs like Don't Cry, November Rain and Estranged, making movie-videos of his relationship with Seymour, which obviously left the rest of the band looking like his employees... Slash must have heard TIL and be like "oooooh not agaaaaain".... LOL... I can totally relate to that. I hate TIL.

To me given what was going on in music, Slash's stuff kind of aligns more with the grunge bands, he can hold his head up with those guys, its not got a bunch of gay ballads on there. Whereas Axl as we know was into that but also NIN, hip hop, a wide variety. Plus Queen and Elton shaping stuff. So Axl was probably thinking about doing something a bit more like UYI with extra elements thrown, not a more grungey AFD type thing. But I think he would have worked the best of Slash into the record, especially rockers and working more like on Nov Rain/Estranged on SOD, TWAT, Catcher, TIL type material. But it's a longer process and I just think Slash didn't want to. He was sick of waiting for Axl, especially when he had material.

Hmmm... Slash and grunge? No way.... I think its like Axl described... southern rock sound, bluesy stuff, old hard-rock style...

I appreciate Axl trying to be more open, he was acting like a visionary, but he shouldn't have mentions NIN or Pearl Jam. NIN is unique and any other band trying to be NIN or playing NIN sound will definitely screw up... I can't imagine Axl singing Reznor's songs.... Maybe he was wrong with all that...

From Slash's book I got the feeling he wanted to get back on the road. He was like a fish out of water hanging around the house. He wasn't up for a long drawn out recording process and another huge GNR record and tour.

Certainly. Slash is a hands-on guy. He wanted to make a record and that's it... Axl wanted to make a masterpiece and take years to develope it....

I think stuff like TIL, Catcher, The Blues, TWAT, Prostitute were around as ideas. Axl writes on piano? But Slash didn't show interest in it.

By grunge, I mean production wise, Snakepit is looser, early Aerosmith to me sounds a bit like Nirvana. Look at Contraband, it's more of an Alternative record in parts but still has 80s hard rock.

Same with NIN, not the songs but the sound. Look at Better, the beat, the effects, the guitar. But it's also a GNR song.

But doing that isn't a walk in the park. It doesn't sound like an easy idea. So I can see Slash thinking wtf.

But Slash should really do the TIL solo and help on Axls material.

Duff played on Chi dem and Shacklers even live when he filled in for Tommy, but I can't see Slash writing Shacklers.

But I see a few of those Snakepit songs given a bit more of a punk metal edge and heavier lyrics from Axl, fitting with the ballads on Chi dem.

But there's more practical issues like Tobias and Slash not geling. On one hand Axl needs Tobias to do his stuff, on the other Slash can't play with him. Then they bring in Zakk Wylde! Good grief what a disaster.

[KinseyHolley]

In the end, its Axl's issues that prevented GNR to hold it together or even have a reunion. Mick/Keith... Steven/Joe, they dont have mental issues on the same level as Axl.

Yes. It's the meglamania, narcissism, power tripping, paranoia. It's the crazy.

[tinyrobot]

Revenge? where are you getting that from? Axl turned down the songs and Slash decided to release them........ I don't see any revenge factor in that..........In fact Slash was still talking about doing the next Guns album even after he released the Snakepit material so he still and hoped there would be a next Guns album....your revenge theory is just that a theory and not based in fact as you have no idea what Slash was thinking at the time.........

And of course it matters if they weren't talking....this idea that Slash should have been the bigger man is BS....As is evident in his book he and the others had catered to Axl's moods long enough and he had reached his limit of patience which is why he quit......It is easy for you to say you would not have handled it that way as you did not have to put up with Axl's megalomania...if you would most likely be singing a different tune..........

Revenge on all those things Slash had to put up with you mentioned before!

Didn't you just say he was pissed off at Axl's many deeds? Bands name, having his guitar parts manipulated, Wylde and Huge forced into him?

Slash talking about doing the next GNR album after the Snakepit scandal is typical Slash being an asshole. How could he expect there would be an album if he said himself there was a huge fight after he informed Axl of what he did with the songs?

He knows Axl was going to be pissed off forever. He said that shit only to cover his ass. GNR was terminated at that point.

Besides, what the hell YOU know what Slash was thinking back then? You only contradict yourself. Slash wanted out and years later he wanted in? Makes no sense! When Slash decided to use his material for Snakepit that's when he packed his bags from GN'R. If he thought Axl was a dictator, Ayatollah and all that shit, why would he still be expecting a GNR album after he went solo?

Pffff, either you are a teenager or never worked in your life, dunno... You really believe Axl Rose is the only asshole out there in the world? Hahhahahahahaaha.....

I'm sorry man, but I've gone through a lot of shit with workmates, bosses and partners. I know what is like to deal with people like Axl.

What may be different in my world is the amount of money, fame and glory involved in this GNR story. For sure, those ingredients make everything much more sordid.

[tinyrobot]

I think stuff like TIL, Catcher, The Blues, TWAT, Prostitute were around as ideas. Axl writes on piano? But Slash didn't show interest in it.

By grunge, I mean production wise, Snakepit is looser, early Aerosmith to me sounds a bit like Nirvana. Look at Contraband, it's more of an Alternative record in parts but still has 80s hard rock.

Same with NIN, not the songs but the sound. Look at Better, the beat, the effects, the guitar. But it's also a GNR song.

But doing that isn't a walk in the park. It doesn't sound like an easy idea. So I can see Slash thinking wtf.

But Slash should really do the TIL solo and help on Axls material.

Duff played on Chi dem and Shacklers even live when he filled in for Tommy, but I can't see Slash writing Shacklers.

But I see a few of those Snakepit songs given a bit more of a punk metal edge and heavier lyrics from Axl, fitting with the ballads on Chi dem.

But there's more practical issues like Tobias and Slash not geling. On one hand Axl needs Tobias to do his stuff, on the other Slash can't play with him. Then they bring in Zakk Wylde! Good grief what a disaster.

I never heard Slash talking about Axl's material, except him complaining about the ballads and not wanting to do anything related ONCE AGAIN to Stephanie (which I totally support). I did hear him say he was eager to listen to CD to finally find out what Axl wanted, so that put me thinking how come Slash didn't hear Axl's ideas? I fail to understand why he would reject songs like Street Of Dreams, TWAT or Madagascar. They are beautiful and sound a lot like old GNR.

Yeah, Better is cool and Shackler's is the closest to NiN. I like them but I can see why Slash didn't.

Why did Axl need this Tobias guy? I swear I never heard of him in the days of glory...

[wasted]

I think stuff like TIL, Catcher, The Blues, TWAT, Prostitute were around as ideas. Axl writes on piano? But Slash didn't show interest in it.

By grunge, I mean production wise, Snakepit is looser, early Aerosmith to me sounds a bit like Nirvana. Look at Contraband, it's more of an Alternative record in parts but still has 80s hard rock.

Same with NIN, not the songs but the sound. Look at Better, the beat, the effects, the guitar. But it's also a GNR song.

But doing that isn't a walk in the park. It doesn't sound like an easy idea. So I can see Slash thinking wtf.

But Slash should really do the TIL solo and help on Axls material.

Duff played on Chi dem and Shacklers even live when he filled in for Tommy, but I can't see Slash writing Shacklers.

But I see a few of those Snakepit songs given a bit more of a punk metal edge and heavier lyrics from Axl, fitting with the ballads on Chi dem.

But there's more practical issues like Tobias and Slash not geling. On one hand Axl needs Tobias to do his stuff, on the other Slash can't play with him. Then they bring in Zakk Wylde! Good grief what a disaster.

I never heard Slash talking about Axl's material, except him complaining about the ballads and not wanting to do anything related ONCE AGAIN to Stephanie (which I totally support). I did hear him say he was eager to listen to CD to finally find out what Axl wanted, so that put me thinking how come Slash didn't hear Axl's ideas? I fail to understand why he would reject songs like Street Of Dreams, TWAT or Madagascar. They are beautiful and sound a lot like old GNR.

Yeah, Better is cool and Shackler's is the closest to NiN. I like them but I can see why Slash didn't.

Why did Axl need this Tobias guy? I swear I never heard of him in the days of glory...

I think Axl wanted someone to write with, a friend from Indiana. But Slash didn't want to work with Huge, according to Duff this was the last straw and Slash took Snakepit material and went solo.

Axl/Duff kind of rejected Snakepit before and they'd tried to write with Zakk wylde but it didn't pan out, so Axl brought in Huge. That's when Slash decided to take Snakepit out on his own, giving up on GNR for the time being.

I think TIL existed around 1994 or before. I think Catcher was 1998? The rest seemed to take shape around 1999-2000. maybe TIL was enough to scare Slash away.

I'm not sure what Slash is referring too, depends what the Seymour ballads are, maybe SOD, TWAT, Prostitute? I think it was a round about way to say no epic ballads that take 5 years to make.

The thing about what Slash says is it's always about what he thinks Axl was trying to do. Like he set Axl up by saying let's see why you broke up the band. It seems at some point Axl came back for some Snakepit but it was too late. Axl has denied he wanted to change GNR that much, but with Slash gone he had no choice but to do something different. I don't think Axl really knew what he wanted to do. Slash left before they really worked together in a real way?

Edited July 11, 2014 by wasted

[trqster]

So very much true Joe! Truth is that the truth hurts.

Gn'R is such a wasted chance.... Axl & Slash could have kept making rock n'roll history together.