Chinese Democracy vs. Snakepit 1, Snakepit 2, VR albums and Slash's solo?

[maynard]

I think some people over rate the hell out of Chinese Democracy on here. It is neither that enjoyable as an album, nor that groundbreaking as an exercise in musical experimentation (adding a bunch of beeps and farts to substandard rock fare does not make you, Aphex Twin). Equally, there is nothing that much more profound in a bunch of hokey self-obsessed love ballads, than Myles dull lyrical output. Neither of them are Roger Waters or Bobby Dylan here, let's face it? Also, for every dud on a Slash album - and I admit, there are many - there is at least an equivalent dud on Democracy - case in point, Scraped and Shacklers Revenge.

Shacklers Revenge >>>>> every song Slash has done 1996-2014.

Even you cannot believe that, surely? A screechy nu-metal riff combined with probably the worst guitar solo ever written and some garbage lyics from Axl, versus, a near masterpieces like Anastasia!

Listen, I do not 'hate' CD (TWAT and Better are terrific numbers) and I am the first to admit that Slash albums tend to be patchy, but the way people talk here, it is as if CD is The Wall or Pet Sounds. CD, speaking objectively, is actually an incredibly flawed record (which is why it flopped). This debate is not even all about quality. I think some of you feel that by Axl adding (or allowing Pitman to add) beeps and farts to the songs makes CD a, ''far out dude'', I am so hip and smug, experimental niche record - as opposed to Slash's which are ''oh so cheesy''. You lot seem to think CD is Radiohead in otherwords, and Slashs records are, basically Dokkon. CD is just a bunch of rather basic songs with a load of overdubs piled on-top (as opposed to songs that are built up, from scratch, via electronic).

And listen, it does not get cheesier than This I Love.

Finally, some sense! ChiDem is not radiohead, and only on this forum do I see people boast about how "experimental" ChiDem is.

ChiDem is a childish imitation of actual musical experimentation. Pitman isn't an electronica luminary. Axl isn't pushing the envelopes. ChiDem is so hopelessly, embarrassingly flawed; it takes more than a shit-shred tuneless solo on top of one generic, simple synth pad.

Axl failed abominably, and yes, Slash's work isn't legendary, but seriously, the whole "ChiDem is revolutionary synth electronic rock" is total crap.

The other thing I dont think the band realizes is that we don't listen to gnr for alternative new sounds. We listen for hard rock. Gnr were never a revolutionary band. They just played kickass hard rock. If I want actual experimental music (not the layering on basic rock songs and ballads), I'll listen to an experimental band.

Yes! So good to see some rational posters around.

[Gackt]

The other thing I dont think the band realizes is that we don't listen to gnr for alternative new sounds. We listen for hard rock. Gnr were never a revolutionary band. They just played kickass hard rock. If I want actual experimental music (not the layering on basic rock songs and ballads), I'll listen to an experimental band.

Axl doesn't and shouldn't write songs to cater to your needs. If you need your radio-friendly rock tunes, you're better off sticking with the old material.

[Damn_Smooth]

Looks like CD put a hurting on the shitpile that is Slash's solo career. Common sense prevails again.

[Bumble's Bridge Pickup]

The thing is, I really like music that makes me go "WTF is going on here"?! I remember listening to CD with my bro when they streamed it on Myspace. We had only heard Greatest Hits, and had never heard the CD leaks or anything. We did know it was a new band, but were still surprised by what we heard. The most brilliant songs like TWAT, Better and Prostitute, they worked for me immediately. The rest required a few more listens.

CD has a higher score than VR or Slash records on Metacritic too, just sayin'.

[maynard]

Looks like CD put a hurting on the shitpile that is Slash's solo career. Common sense prevails again.

Lol. Common sense prevailing in a GN'R forum. Good one, DS.

[Damn_Smooth]

Looks like CD put a hurting on the shitpile that is Slash's solo career. Common sense prevails again.

Lol. Common sense prevailing in a GN'R forum. Good one, DS.

Stranger things have happened. Take Anastasia for instance, Slash actually managed to put out a song that wasn't completely horrible. Who ever would have seen that coming?

[wasted]

The Riad intro grates, it's misplaced. I'd open with an intro but on track 2 it's painful. I'd switch Scraped and Riad but Scraped is a bigger song.

SOD opening vocal used to be chalk board but I've got used to it and listening speakers it's not as harsh. It's kind of a classic Axl vocal, unmistakably Axl.

Other than that it has masterpiece potential. it's on the starting grid to finish as Exile on Tumbleweed Connection. It's the Pulp Fiction of Classic Rock.

I am speechless that someone would mention Exile in the same company as CD.

Of course not literally, or stylistically. I get a similar vibe.

I see similarities in the structure of the album. Chi dem is Rocks off, Shacklers Rip this Joint, then ending Trio of each album. The whole ragged glory feel but it's Axl's Exile but its a more 90s Exile, the scope of material is similar. There's not really a ventilator Blues. But the whole souls Survivor quasi spiritual experience, yes. As an album with potential mythology I think so. Both albums pretty uncommercial but have tracks like Catcher and Tumbling Dice that will be hard to ignore. Both albums have the same spirit of struggle. Swagger under Duress so to speak.

Them Tumbleweed is like a patchwork of tracks recorded at different times. CD has that element, it's taped together but there's still a cohesive narrative to find.

They are both albums I listen to in full and they are like a journey. They open with swagger and then you go through all these different emotions and the last three tracks just take up over the top.

I think you have been taking too many drugs!

Sometimes I just make stuff up when I'm sober. There's a window between blackouts of clarity. Like a portal to the truth that no one else can see because they haven't got the right brand sunglasses.

[Caught in a Coma]

The other thing I dont think the band realizes is that we don't listen to gnr for alternative new sounds. We listen for hard rock. Gnr were never a revolutionary band. They just played kickass hard rock. If I want actual experimental music (not the layering on basic rock songs and ballads), I'll listen to an experimental band.

Axl doesn't and shouldn't write songs to cater to your needs. If you need your radio-friendly rock tunes, you're better off sticking with the old material.

Did I say radio friendly? It doesn't need to be radio friendly, but two minute stolen ambient noises and computer sounds do not add to the bands sound.

[maynard]

The other thing I dont think the band realizes is that we don't listen to gnr for alternative new sounds. We listen for hard rock. Gnr were never a revolutionary band. They just played kickass hard rock. If I want actual experimental music (not the layering on basic rock songs and ballads), I'll listen to an experimental band.

Axl doesn't and shouldn't write songs to cater to your needs. If you need your radio-friendly rock tunes, you're better off sticking with the old material.

Did I say radio friendly? It doesn't need to be radio friendly, but two minute stolen ambient noises and computer sounds do not add to the bands sound.

But that's what makes CD this amazing, "complex" and avant-garde piece of art. Useless (stolen) ambient intros, layers of hard rock/nu metal riffs, cheap synths and hip hop beats!! That's not radio friendly, not music friendly, not audience friendly. Axl is the last true real Trent Reznor wannabe. Fuck the haters!

[magisme]

The following is IMO :

It's all shit. Contraband is slightly better than CD, which is slightly better than Libertad, although CD's best moments are better than the best moments of Contraband and Libertad put together. Still, each of those three albums is mediocre at best, forgettable at best. None of the other albums are even worth mentioning.

Null vote.

[Gackt]

Did I say radio friendly? It doesn't need to be radio friendly, but two minute stolen ambient noises and computer sounds do not add to the bands sound.

Did that case even get settled? I don't recall anything actually coming of it, unless it was quietly dismissed. But you're talking about two songs that use quiet, hardly ambient intros that both lead into a heavy guitar riff, and using that as an argument that it's two minutes of unnecessary ambient noise. Doesn't add up on why it detracts from the album's quality, sorry. Look at songs like Disturbed's Indestructible, starts with almost a minute of background noise before the song starts and their fans eat it up lovingly.

I'm not even touching the "computer sounds" thing lol

[ShadowOfTheWave]

If you put Axl's lyrics and melodies up against Slash's riffs and solos, I think they are about equal. However, Bucket & Robin's contributions destroy anything from Eric, Rod or Myles, and Scott's contributions were 50/50. So, CD wins.

[Turn_It_Up]

CD has a higher score than VR or Slash records on Metacritic too, just sayin'.

Reality calling:

Libertad (score 68)

http://www.metacritic.com/music/libertad/velvet-revolver

Contraband (score 65)

http://www.metacritic.com/music/contraband/velvet-revolver

Chinese Democracy (score 64)

http://www.metacritic.com/music/chinese-democracy/guns-n-roses

I know, I know, Slash has(again!) masterfully manipulated all of the reviewers who didn't give CD a fair shake and/or they didn't have the quality headphones to fully appreciate CD's complexity and majesty. But bottom line is an album(Libertad) made by a bunch of guys getting out of rehab and who were barely on speaking terms threw together a record in a couple months that scored cumulatively higher on Metacritic. You brought this up, not me.

[maynard]

CD has a higher score than VR or Slash records on Metacritic too, just sayin'.

Reality calling:

Libertad (score 68)

http://www.metacritic.com/music/libertad/velvet-revolver

Contraband (score 65)

http://www.metacritic.com/music/contraband/velvet-revolver

Chinese Democracy (score 64)

http://www.metacritic.com/music/chinese-democracy/guns-n-roses

I know, I know, Slash has(again!) masterfully manipulated all of the reviewers who didn't give CD a fair shake and/or they didn't have the quality headphones to fully appreciate CD's complexity and majesty. But bottom line is an album(Libertad) made by a bunch of guys getting out of rehab and who were barely on speaking terms threw together a record in a couple months that scored cumulatively higher on Metacritic. You brought this up, not me.

[Gackt]

CD has a higher score than VR or Slash records on Metacritic too, just sayin'.

Reality calling:

Libertad (score 68)

http://www.metacritic.com/music/libertad/velvet-revolver

Contraband (score 65)

http://www.metacritic.com/music/contraband/velvet-revolver

Chinese Democracy (score 64)

http://www.metacritic.com/music/chinese-democracy/guns-n-roses

That's just taking the few "professional" critics into account; check out the user reviews also, which ChiDem currently dominates even with triple the amount of reviews of either VR record.

The average score from the reviewers used to give the 0-100 can be deceiving. I'm honestly surprised Contraband is so low.

[maynard]

[Nosaj Thing]

CD has a higher score than VR or Slash records on Metacritic too, just sayin'.

Reality calling:

Libertad (score 68)

http://www.metacritic.com/music/libertad/velvet-revolver

Contraband (score 65)

http://www.metacritic.com/music/contraband/velvet-revolver

Chinese Democracy (score 64)

http://www.metacritic.com/music/chinese-democracy/guns-n-roses

I know, I know, Slash has(again!) masterfully manipulated all of the reviewers who didn't give CD a fair shake and/or they didn't have the quality headphones to fully appreciate CD's complexity and majesty. But bottom line is an album(Libertad) made by a bunch of guys getting out of rehab and who were barely on speaking terms threw together a record in a couple months that scored cumulatively higher on Metacritic. You brought this up, not me.

Ouch!

[CheapJon]

Due to this thread, I just bought Snakepit 2 (Japan edition) on Ebay for 30 dollars. Wouldn't pay half of that for any of the other albums.

Libertad, SLASH and AL are shit. CD and Contraband are alrite. Not that fond of 5 o clock. Don't know what to vote.

[maynard]

CD has a higher score than VR or Slash records on Metacritic too, just sayin'.

Reality calling:

Libertad (score 68)

http://www.metacritic.com/music/libertad/velvet-revolver

Contraband (score 65)

http://www.metacritic.com/music/contraband/velvet-revolver

Chinese Democracy (score 64)

http://www.metacritic.com/music/chinese-democracy/guns-n-roses

I know, I know, Slash has(again!) masterfully manipulated all of the reviewers who didn't give CD a fair shake and/or they didn't have the quality headphones to fully appreciate CD's complexity and majesty. But bottom line is an album(Libertad) made by a bunch of guys getting out of rehab and who were barely on speaking terms threw together a record in a couple months that scored cumulatively higher on Metacritic. You brought this up, not me.

Ouch!

But the scoring system...

But critic reviews...

But they are out ta get Axl...

But... But... But....

I love reality Nosaj. What about you?

[Bumble's Bridge Pickup]

CD has a higher score than VR or Slash records on Metacritic too, just sayin'.

Reality calling:

Libertad (score 68)

http://www.metacritic.com/music/libertad/velvet-revolver

Contraband (score 65)

http://www.metacritic.com/music/contraband/velvet-revolver

Chinese Democracy (score 64)

http://www.metacritic.com/music/chinese-democracy/guns-n-roses

I know, I know, Slash has(again!) masterfully manipulated all of the reviewers who didn't give CD a fair shake and/or they didn't have the quality headphones to fully appreciate CD's complexity and majesty. But bottom line is an album(Libertad) made by a bunch of guys getting out of rehab and who were barely on speaking terms threw together a record in a couple months that scored cumulatively higher on Metacritic. You brought this up, not me.

Lol I swear this was the other way around when I last checked... a year or two ago... I was probably thinking of the user reviews instead. Thanks for the correction bro.

[Nosaj Thing]

Due to this thread, I just bought Snakepit 2 (Japan edition) on Ebay for 30 dollars. Wouldn't pay half of that for any of the other albums.

Good catch. That one is cool. I bought my copy for $25 two years ago. Of course, you can get all the other albums for less than $10 and Chinese Democracy for 99 cents at your local Dollar Tree store!

CD has a higher score than VR or Slash records on Metacritic too, just sayin'.

Reality calling:

Libertad (score 68)

http://www.metacritic.com/music/libertad/velvet-revolver

Contraband (score 65)

http://www.metacritic.com/music/contraband/velvet-revolver

Chinese Democracy (score 64)

http://www.metacritic.com/music/chinese-democracy/guns-n-roses

I know, I know, Slash has(again!) masterfully manipulated all of the reviewers who didn't give CD a fair shake and/or they didn't have the quality headphones to fully appreciate CD's complexity and majesty. But bottom line is an album(Libertad) made by a bunch of guys getting out of rehab and who were barely on speaking terms threw together a record in a couple months that scored cumulatively higher on Metacritic. You brought this up, not me.

Ouch!

But the scoring system...

But critic reviews...

But they are out ta get Axl...

But... But... But....

I love reality Nosaj. What about you?

It's only the professional critics!!!11 They don't count!!!!!!!!111!!1

But if they do count, they're all obviously out ta get Axl!

[Estranged Coma]

I am actually in the middle on CD. TWAT, Better and Streets of Dreams are masterpieces. IRS is also good - an iffy lyric or two robbing it of top class. I like Madagascar also, although, I prefer the Rio 3 version. The rest of the album ranges from, average (Sorry, Catcher,) to complete stinky excrement (Shacklers, Scraped, the title track, TIL). If I was reviewing it for Kerrang or some other publication I would give it, 3/5. It is neither as bad as some make out, nor as brilliant as some make out - it is certainly not 'the best album of the 00s'!

Ironically, it is a bit like AL. I will put on AL and only listen to Anastasia and one more song I like whose name I cannot recall. I will put on CD and only listen to TWAT and Better. Basically those two albums are, one, two, three - at a push, song-albums for me.

Interesting that you think Chinese has three "masterpieces" being TWAT Better and SOD and only gave the album 3/5. I think 3 masterpieces on one album is a pretty strong number. How many is it supposed to have? AFD has the big three and then a ton of solid to very good tunes (and some say 1 or 2 duds). I'm not saying Chinese is better then AFD just that you can't expect Chinese to be a masterpieces on every track not even AFD is. It's kind of comparable Chinese and Afd is you look at it like that. A big three, Some other really really good tunes and then Afew forgettable songs.

[DieselDaisy]

I am actually in the middle on CD. TWAT, Better and Streets of Dreams are masterpieces. IRS is also good - an iffy lyric or two robbing it of top class. I like Madagascar also, although, I prefer the Rio 3 version. The rest of the album ranges from, average (Sorry, Catcher,) to complete stinky excrement (Shacklers, Scraped, the title track, TIL). If I was reviewing it for Kerrang or some other publication I would give it, 3/5. It is neither as bad as some make out, nor as brilliant as some make out - it is certainly not 'the best album of the 00s'!

Ironically, it is a bit like AL. I will put on AL and only listen to Anastasia and one more song I like whose name I cannot recall. I will put on CD and only listen to TWAT and Better. Basically those two albums are, one, two, three - at a push, song-albums for me.

Interesting that you think Chinese has three "masterpieces" being TWAT Better and SOD and only gave the album 3/5. I think 3 masterpieces on one album is a pretty strong number. How many is it supposed to have? AFD has the big three and then a ton of solid to very good tunes (and some say 1 or 2 duds).

I do not agree about your ratio of masterpieces on Appetite. I think the situation is much better than that. As far as I am concerned, Appetite has back to back masterpieces (or near-masterpieces) from Jungle to Rocket Queen with one exception: Anything Goes:

Masterpieces

Jungle

It's So Easy

Brownstone

Nightrain

City

Sweet Child O' Mine

Near Masterpieces

The Rest except Anything Goes which is filler.

I'm not saying Chinese is better then AFD just that you can't expect Chinese to be a masterpieces on every track

You can if I am going to give the album '5/5' (or 10/10). Similar '5/5' albums, Sticky Fingers, Blonde on Blonde, Are You Experienced, etc., are so placed.

Edited August 5, 2014 by DieselDaisy

[wasted]

I think the first side of CD is as good as first side of AFD.

Riad and Scraped are comparable to My Michelle and Think about You.

SCOM is way more commercial than Sorry. That's the difference between the albums really. AFD is doing something pretty well worn very well. CD is an Alt style that never sold that well, CD is the most commercial alt record though.

IRS and Madagascar up against Crazy n Anything G, I'd personally take the CD songs.

This I Love and Prostitute against Rocket. Tie.

It's a tie but AFD has more commercial singles. There's nothing on CD like SCOM. Maybe Better and TIL comparable to UYI stuff but there's no obvious single.

Sex and drugs sells better than narcissism and heartbreak.

Edited August 5, 2014 by wasted

[DieselDaisy]

Riad and Scraped, 'comparable to Michelle and Think About You''? You have to be joking here. Scraped is fuckin rancid. Comparing it to two of the sleaziest greatest rockers ever is an insult.