Grexit?

[streak]

Looks like crunch time.

what will happen?

The ruling party has called for referendum. I have a feeling they were trying to blag their way out of it but the EU stood firm and told them no. If the people agree, Greece will accept the measures and stay in the EU.

I still believe something will happen for Greece to stay, too much shit will go down if they do.

[Dazey]

I think that the referendum is a smokescreen. They're basically washing their hands of the responsibility so that if it all goes tits up they can just blame the people.

Edited June 29, 2015 by Dazey

[netcat]

what this referendum is about? to pay or not to pay €240 billion debt? i wonder how will they vote

Edited June 29, 2015 by netcat

[magisme]

The referendum is whether to accept the terms of the continued bailout proposed by the Troika.

This is one of those things that matter that I alluded to in the Confederate flag thread. Years down the road, this will be seen as an historical turning point. The debt-based global economy is officially zombified.

[Len Cnut]

Greek buggery, best in the world

[Dazey]

Greek government: "We will bring an end to austerity."

Everybody else: "Errr, no you won't!"

Edited June 29, 2015 by Dazey

[Słash]

I feel bad for them.

[Dazey]

I feel bad for them.

I feel sorry for the people but at some point their government has to own this. They deliberately misrepresented the numbers to get into the Euro and now they're in deep shit. All the bailouts in the world aren't gonna fix this long term. Greece needs to be allowed to fail and rebuild outside of the Eurozone.

[Słash]

I feel bad for them.

I feel sorry for the people but at some point their government has to own this. They deliberately misrepresented the numbers to get into the Euro and now they're in deep shit. All the bailouts in the world aren't gonna fix this long term. Greece needs to be allowed to fail and rebuild outside of the Eurozone.

I havent gone deep in this matter, so if they go out of the eurozone, it means it will be out of the Schengen area too?

[magisme]

I feel bad for them.

I feel sorry for the people but at some point their government has to own this. They deliberately misrepresented the numbers to get into the Euro and now they're in deep shit. All the bailouts in the world aren't gonna fix this long term. Greece needs to be allowed to fail and rebuild outside of the Eurozone.

Everyone knew exactly how unfit Greece was for the Eurozone. This is the intended outcome. No one at any time expected Greece to pay these "loans" back. That's the game. The Troika is just pissed because Greece might be deciding to pull the cord before it's been bled entirely dry of every asset it has.

[netcat]

it seems that Greek government is having a hard time pleasing their electorate, that don't want to tighten their belts and don't want to return to drachma at the same time

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/24/greece-warns-it-is-set-to-default-on-debt-repayment-loans

Syriza’s domestic position was bolstered on Sunday by a poll that showed cash-strapped Greeks remain supportive of the government’s tough negotiating stance, though they rejected a return to the drachma, saying that any deal with creditors must retain the euro as the Greek currency. The poll conducted in May by Public Issue, for the pro-government newspaper Avgi, showed 54% backing the government’s handling of the negotiations despite concerns that the country has been taken to the brink of financial collapse.


A total of 59% believe Athens must resist demands by creditors for further austerity measures, with 89% against pension cuts and 81% against mass lay-offs. Aware that broad electoral support for his government could collapse without a deal that retains the euro, Tsipras warned his far-left supporters, many of them newly elected MPs with little experience of EU negotiations, that they must compromise in talks with creditors.

Edited June 29, 2015 by netcat

[Graeme]

Looks like crunch time.

what will happen?

The ruling party has called for referendum. I have a feeling they were trying to blag their way out of it but the EU stood firm and told them no. If the people agree, Greece will accept the measures and stay in the EU.

I still believe something will happen for Greece to stay, too much shit will go down if they do.

I hope not. I mean, this is about the institutions of neo-liberal capitalism against the democratic will of a people. Austerity is a device perfectly designed for outsourcing the consequences of mistakes made by a small number of barely accountable individuals in the political and financial sector as a punitive measure for the whole population (and especially the poorest). When the Greek people got their chance to approve or disapprove of this at the ballot box, they utterly rejected it by electing SYRIZA. You saw the same thing in the run-up to the Scottish Independence referendum last year, all the Establishment institutions threatening to throw the toys out the pram unless the vote went the way they wanted it to. Then the Scottish people overwhelmingly rejected austerity at the ballot box this year, but are still having it enforced on us by that ghastly over-privileged charlatan Osborne.

It's gonna be messy either way, but I hate seeing the bad guys win...

[netcat]

bad guys always win. outrun the constable and never pay debt is beyond all good guys wildest dreams

both sides bluff so hard now that it would really be interesting to see how things turn out

Edited June 29, 2015 by netcat

[Graeme]

bad guys always win. outrun the constable and never pay debt is beyond all good guys wildest dreams

both sides bluff so hard now that it would really be interesting to see how things turn out

No they don't. They win too frequently, but they don't win all the time.

[November_rain]

I hope the Greek people have the balls to say NO. That would be a big fuck you to the banks, to Ángela Merkel, to the Internacional Monetary Fund, to the European "Union" and their fucking Troika hienas, to austerity measures and to the traditional political parties that are rotten and corrupt.

Even if they vote YES things are not going to be better. The Greek people will still be blackmailed and threatened with cruel austerity measures. They will be forced to pay the debt caused by the same corrupt and rotten people who now try to appear as if they had the solutions and the key to go the right way.

They do know that Greece will not be able to pay the debt but neither Europe nor the rest of the gang give a shit about people. They only think of the money and want to force Greece to pay at all cost, even if it means the ruin of the country.

The EU, the Troika, the tradicional and corrupt parties... etc are using the law of fear to manipulate people so that things remain the same and those who caused the crisis are now portraying themselves as heroes and accusing the ones with opposite views of being the villains.

At the end of the day, no matter what happens, the people will suffer the consequences. And once they are done with Greece they will go after Spain, Italy and Portugal, what they call the "Pigs" of Europe.

Edited July 5, 2015 by November_rain

[Dazey]

I hope the Greek people have the balls to say NO. That would be a big fuck you to the banks, to Ángela Merkel, to the Internacional Monetary Fund, to the European "Union" and their fucking Troika hienas, to austerity measures and to the traditional political parties that are rotten and corrupt.

Even if they vote YES things are not going to be better. The Greek people will still be blackmailed and threatened with cruel austerity measures. They will be forced to pay the debt caused by the same corrupt and rotten people who now try to appear as if they had the solutions and the key to go the right way.

They do know that Greece will not be able to pay the debt but neither Europe nor the rest of the gang give a shit about people. They only think of the money and want to force Greece to pay at all cost, even if it means the ruin of the country.

The EU, the Troika, the tradicional and corrupt parties... etc are using the law of fear to manipulate people so that things remain the same and those who caused the crisis are now portraying themselves as heroes and accusing the ones with opposite views of being the villains.

At the end of the day, no matter what happens, the people will suffer the consequences. And once they are done with Greece they will go after Spain, Italy and Portugal, what they call the "Pigs" of Europe.

Do the Greeks not have to take at least a little responsibility for this mess?

[magisme]

I hope the Greek people have the balls to say NO. That would be a big fuck you to the banks, to Ángela Merkel, to the Internacional Monetary Fund, to the European "Union" and their fucking Troika hienas, to austerity measures and to the traditional political parties that are rotten and corrupt.

Even if they vote YES things are not going to be better. The Greek people will still be blackmailed and threatened with cruel austerity measures. They will be forced to pay the debt caused by the same corrupt and rotten people who now try to appear as if they had the solutions and the key to go the right way.

They do know that Greece will not be able to pay the debt but neither Europe nor the rest of the gang give a shit about people. They only think of the money and want to force Greece to pay at all cost, even if it means the ruin of the country.

The EU, the Troika, the tradicional and corrupt parties... etc are using the law of fear to manipulate people so that things remain the same and those who caused the crisis are now portraying themselves as heroes and accusing the ones with opposite views of being the villains.

At the end of the day, no matter what happens, the people will suffer the consequences. And once they are done with Greece they will go after Spain, Italy and Portugal, what they call the "Pigs" of Europe.

Do the Greeks not have to take at least a little responsibility for this mess?

I seem to remember a bitch of yours came up with TINA. The bought politicians did everything they could to convince people not simply that this was the best choice, but that it was the only choice. Fuck them and their banker masters.

Edited July 5, 2015 by magisme

[JeanGenie]

I hope the Greek people have the balls to say NO. That would be a big fuck you to the banks, to Ángela Merkel, to the Internacional Monetary Fund, to the European "Union" and their fucking Troika hienas, to austerity measures and to the traditional political parties that are rotten and corrupt.

Even if they vote YES things are not going to be better. The Greek people will still be blackmailed and threatened with cruel austerity measures. They will be forced to pay the debt caused by the same corrupt and rotten people who now try to appear as if they had the solutions and the key to go the right way.

They do know that Greece will not be able to pay the debt but neither Europe nor the rest of the gang give a shit about people. They only think of the money and want to force Greece to pay at all cost, even if it means the ruin of the country.

The EU, the Troika, the tradicional and corrupt parties... etc are using the law of fear to manipulate people so that things remain the same and those who caused the crisis are now portraying themselves as heroes and accusing the ones with opposite views of being the villains.

At the end of the day, no matter what happens, the people will suffer the consequences. And once they are done with Greece they will go after Spain, Italy and Portugal, what they call the "Pigs" of Europe.

Do the Greeks not have to take at least a little responsibility for this mess?

Of course they have to. The richest percent of the greek people are still paying no taxes. How are you going to explain this to eastern european countries that have a lower living standard but still are supposed to spend tax money on greece? Not to mention that Greece already had a debt cut of 100 Billion eur. NO bancrupt country in the western World has been treated as generously as greece. Edited July 5, 2015 by JeanGenie

[Graeme]

I hope the Greek people have the balls to say NO. That would be a big fuck you to the banks, to Ángela Merkel, to the Internacional Monetary Fund, to the European "Union" and their fucking Troika hienas, to austerity measures and to the traditional political parties that are rotten and corrupt.

Even if they vote YES things are not going to be better. The Greek people will still be blackmailed and threatened with cruel austerity measures. They will be forced to pay the debt caused by the same corrupt and rotten people who now try to appear as if they had the solutions and the key to go the right way.

They do know that Greece will not be able to pay the debt but neither Europe nor the rest of the gang give a shit about people. They only think of the money and want to force Greece to pay at all cost, even if it means the ruin of the country.

The EU, the Troika, the tradicional and corrupt parties... etc are using the law of fear to manipulate people so that things remain the same and those who caused the crisis are now portraying themselves as heroes and accusing the ones with opposite views of being the villains.

At the end of the day, no matter what happens, the people will suffer the consequences. And once they are done with Greece they will go after Spain, Italy and Portugal, what they call the "Pigs" of Europe.

Do the Greeks not have to take at least a little responsibility for this mess?

Do we have to take responsibility for the Iraq war because the UK government entered into it on our behalf? Even those of us who were too young to vote at the time? Even those millions who marched in protest? Can you hold a people to account for the decisions made by their elected representatives? I'll be fucked if I'm held to account for anything the UK government has done recently.

[DieselDaisy]

You cannot have direct Athenian (ironically) style democracy in countries this large Graeme. Were you seriously expecting a vote on entering Iraq? You have to elect a wanker then spend the next few years being profoundly disappointed at everything he does; then you elect another wanker and the process repeats itself.

[netcat]

I hope the Greek people have the balls to say NO. That would be a big fuck you to the banks, to Ángela Merkel, to the Internacional Monetary Fund, to the European "Union" and their fucking Troika hienas, to austerity measures and to the traditional political parties that are rotten and corrupt.

Even if they vote YES things are not going to be better. The Greek people will still be blackmailed and threatened with cruel austerity measures. They will be forced to pay the debt caused by the same corrupt and rotten people who now try to appear as if they had the solutions and the key to go the right way.

They do know that Greece will not be able to pay the debt but neither Europe nor the rest of the gang give a shit about people. They only think of the money and want to force Greece to pay at all cost, even if it means the ruin of the country.

The EU, the Troika, the tradicional and corrupt parties... etc are using the law of fear to manipulate people so that things remain the same and those who caused the crisis are now portraying themselves as heroes and accusing the ones with opposite views of being the villains.

At the end of the day, no matter what happens, the people will suffer the consequences. And once they are done with Greece they will go after Spain, Italy and Portugal, what they call the "Pigs" of Europe.

Do the Greeks not have to take at least a little responsibility for this mess?

of course not! they just wanted to enjoy their lunch break from 12 till 5 pm, close their official institutions at 1 pm, have early retirement (for 580 professions, including hairdressers and radio djs) and make € 80 000 working for loss-making enterprises

[magisme]

I hope the Greek people have the balls to say NO. That would be a big fuck you to the banks, to Ángela Merkel, to the Internacional Monetary Fund, to the European "Union" and their fucking Troika hienas, to austerity measures and to the traditional political parties that are rotten and corrupt.

Even if they vote YES things are not going to be better. The Greek people will still be blackmailed and threatened with cruel austerity measures. They will be forced to pay the debt caused by the same corrupt and rotten people who now try to appear as if they had the solutions and the key to go the right way.

They do know that Greece will not be able to pay the debt but neither Europe nor the rest of the gang give a shit about people. They only think of the money and want to force Greece to pay at all cost, even if it means the ruin of the country.

The EU, the Troika, the tradicional and corrupt parties... etc are using the law of fear to manipulate people so that things remain the same and those who caused the crisis are now portraying themselves as heroes and accusing the ones with opposite views of being the villains.

At the end of the day, no matter what happens, the people will suffer the consequences. And once they are done with Greece they will go after Spain, Italy and Portugal, what they call the "Pigs" of Europe.

Do the Greeks not have to take at least a little responsibility for this mess?

of course not! they just wanted to enjoy their lunch break from 12 till 5 pm, close their official institutions at 1 pm, have early retirement (for 580 professions, including hairdressers and radio djs) and make € 80 000 working for loss-making enterprises

Careful. We're all in the same boat on this one.

"But in the event that a negotiated settlement with private creditors is not reached and the country determines that it cannot service its debt, the fund can lend to Ukraine consistent with its lending-into-arrears policy," Lagarde explained.

"Rapid completion of the debt operation with high participation is vital for the success of the program, since Ukraine lacks the resources under the program to fully service its debts on the original terms."

Lagarde had met with Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk and Finance Minister Natalie Jaresko in Washington earlier this week to discuss economic developments and implementation of economic reforms. Bloomberg Business reported that Jaresko has now been in talks with private creditors for months, seeking a write-down of its debts from creditors who had only offered delayed payments.

http://www.dw.com/en/imf-says-it-will-continue-to-back-ukraine/a-18514951

Until they decide to throw you out of the boat, that is.

[DieselDaisy]

The problem is Mediterranean orientated countries such as Greece and Spain are not as anally Teutonic and money obsessed as countries like Great Britain, Germany and the United States. In the latter countries, you work slave hours for as much money as you can acquire (and it might be a tidy sum, or it might be a pittance) then you either die of heart failure or your children, who are now repeating the process, steal all of your money and stick you in a retirement home. In Mediterranean countries they still value human decency and a good standard of living, e.g. the extended family (almost extinct in Anglo-Germanic cash obsessed countries), siesta, superior food (takeaway food and microwave meals are eaten far less in Mediterranean countries).

[Snake-Pit]

I hope the Greek people have the balls to say NO. That would be a big fuck you to the banks, to Ángela Merkel, to the Internacional Monetary Fund, to the European "Union" and their fucking Troika hienas, to austerity measures and to the traditional political parties that are rotten and corrupt.

Even if they vote YES things are not going to be better. The Greek people will still be blackmailed and threatened with cruel austerity measures. They will be forced to pay the debt caused by the same corrupt and rotten people who now try to appear as if they had the solutions and the key to go the right way.

They do know that Greece will not be able to pay the debt but neither Europe nor the rest of the gang give a shit about people. They only think of the money and want to force Greece to pay at all cost, even if it means the ruin of the country.

The EU, the Troika, the tradicional and corrupt parties... etc are using the law of fear to manipulate people so that things remain the same and those who caused the crisis are now portraying themselves as heroes and accusing the ones with opposite views of being the villains.

At the end of the day, no matter what happens, the people will suffer the consequences. And once they are done with Greece they will go after Spain, Italy and Portugal, what they call the "Pigs" of Europe.

Do the Greeks not have to take at least a little responsibility for this mess?

of course not! they just wanted to enjoy their lunch break from 12 till 5 pm, close their official institutions at 1 pm, have early retirement (for 580 professions, including hairdressers and radio djs) and make € 80 000 working for loss-making enterprises

This is the Eurozone, did anyone see the news report yesterday when they were voting?, one woman said

"I've been through wars, occupation, regimes - and this is the worst!"

[netcat]

I hope the Greek people have the balls to say NO. That would be a big fuck you to the banks, to Ángela Merkel, to the Internacional Monetary Fund, to the European "Union" and their fucking Troika hienas, to austerity measures and to the traditional political parties that are rotten and corrupt.

Even if they vote YES things are not going to be better. The Greek people will still be blackmailed and threatened with cruel austerity measures. They will be forced to pay the debt caused by the same corrupt and rotten people who now try to appear as if they had the solutions and the key to go the right way.

They do know that Greece will not be able to pay the debt but neither Europe nor the rest of the gang give a shit about people. They only think of the money and want to force Greece to pay at all cost, even if it means the ruin of the country.

The EU, the Troika, the tradicional and corrupt parties... etc are using the law of fear to manipulate people so that things remain the same and those who caused the crisis are now portraying themselves as heroes and accusing the ones with opposite views of being the villains.

At the end of the day, no matter what happens, the people will suffer the consequences. And once they are done with Greece they will go after Spain, Italy and Portugal, what they call the "Pigs" of Europe.

Do the Greeks not have to take at least a little responsibility for this mess?

of course not! they just wanted to enjoy their lunch break from 12 till 5 pm, close their official institutions at 1 pm, have early retirement (for 580 professions, including hairdressers and radio djs) and make € 80 000 working for loss-making enterprises

Careful. We're all in the same boat on this one.

"But in the event that a negotiated settlement with private creditors is not reached and the country determines that it cannot service its debt, the fund can lend to Ukraine consistent with its lending-into-arrears policy," Lagarde explained.

"Rapid completion of the debt operation with high participation is vital for the success of the program, since Ukraine lacks the resources under the program to fully service its debts on the original terms."

Lagarde had met with Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk and Finance Minister Natalie Jaresko in Washington earlier this week to discuss economic developments and implementation of economic reforms. Bloomberg Business reported that Jaresko has now been in talks with private creditors for months, seeking a write-down of its debts from creditors who had only offered delayed payments.

http://www.dw.com/en/imf-says-it-will-continue-to-back-ukraine/a-18514951

Until they decide to throw you out of the boat, that is.

it's a bit too late for Ukraine to be careful

but overall the reasons why we are screwed are basically the same: dumb electorate plus populist governments.

Greeks thought don't have civil conflict and foregn agression on their territory, yet

I hope the Greek people have the balls to say NO. That would be a big fuck you to the banks, to Ángela Merkel, to the Internacional Monetary Fund, to the European "Union" and their fucking Troika hienas, to austerity measures and to the traditional political parties that are rotten and corrupt.

Even if they vote YES things are not going to be better. The Greek people will still be blackmailed and threatened with cruel austerity measures. They will be forced to pay the debt caused by the same corrupt and rotten people who now try to appear as if they had the solutions and the key to go the right way.

They do know that Greece will not be able to pay the debt but neither Europe nor the rest of the gang give a shit about people. They only think of the money and want to force Greece to pay at all cost, even if it means the ruin of the country.

The EU, the Troika, the tradicional and corrupt parties... etc are using the law of fear to manipulate people so that things remain the same and those who caused the crisis are now portraying themselves as heroes and accusing the ones with opposite views of being the villains.

At the end of the day, no matter what happens, the people will suffer the consequences. And once they are done with Greece they will go after Spain, Italy and Portugal, what they call the "Pigs" of Europe.

Do the Greeks not have to take at least a little responsibility for this mess?

of course not! they just wanted to enjoy their lunch break from 12 till 5 pm, close their official institutions at 1 pm, have early retirement (for 580 professions, including hairdressers and radio djs) and make € 80 000 working for loss-making enterprises

This is the Eurozone, did anyone see the news report yesterday when they were voting?, one woman said

"I've been through wars, occupation, regimes - and this is the worst!"

Edited July 6, 2015 by netcat