Len Cnut Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 Baptising babies who have no say in the matter yet is wrong.It's not solely about belief though is it, it's about identity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lithium Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 Baptising babies who have no say in the matter yet is wrong.It's not solely about belief though is it, it's about identity.Yes, and the fact that the belief becomes a part of the child's identity before it even knows what an identity is is wrong in my opinion. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Drama Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Yeah I'm sure all the kids of atheists are totally open to any belief system and 99.9% of them aren't essentially confirmed atheists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazey Posted October 20, 2014 Author Share Posted October 20, 2014 Yeah I'm sure all the kids of atheists are totally open to any belief system and 99.9% of them aren't essentially confirmed atheists.They dont have to be confirmed anything. They are atheists by default by definition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Yeah I'm sure all the kids of atheists are totally open to any belief system and 99.9% of them aren't essentially confirmed atheists.They dont have to be confirmed anything. They are atheists by default by definition.I do not agree with that. Atheism rejects the belief that there is/are god(s). In contrast, a child is inherently a tabula rasa. They can neither reject theism nor sustain theism, since, they are incapable of comprehending the idea of a godhead or religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazey Posted October 20, 2014 Author Share Posted October 20, 2014 (edited) Yeah I'm sure all the kids of atheists are totally open to any belief system and 99.9% of them aren't essentially confirmed atheists.They dont have to be confirmed anything. They are atheists by default by definition. I do not agree with that. Atheism rejects the belief that there is/are god(s). In contrast, a child is inherently a tabula rasa. They can neither reject theism nor sustain theism, since, they are incapable of comprehending the idea of a godhead or religion.There are a number of definitions. Generally I would ascribe to the definition that atheism is simply an absence of belief in a god. Edited October 20, 2014 by Dazey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 (edited) Thing is you gotta fuckin' raise the cunts something, right? And each side is just like, ideas, more or less, no one knows fuck all for sure. So you could raise em thinking either and like...i refuse to believe that just cuz you raise a kid to fuckin' say their prayers before dinner and go to church on a fuckin' Sunday that it means you are setting them up for a fall or that it's fuckin' evil or something, thats a load of fuckin' bollocks and just a bunch of fuckin' Science slags (no offence McLeod, Soulie ) setting themselves up as the new church, bollocks to that. Edited October 20, 2014 by Lennie Godber 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Drama Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Thing is you gotta fuckin' raise the cunts something, right? And each side is just like, ideas, more or less, no one knows fuck all for sure. So you could raise em thinking either and like...i refuse to believe that just cuz you raise a kid to fuckin' say their prayers before dinner and go to church on a fuckin' Sunday that it means you are setting them up for a fall or that it's fuckin' evil or something, thats a load of fuckin' bollocks and just a bunch of fuckin' Science slags (no offence McLeod, Soulie ) setting themselves up as the new church, bollocks to that.Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazey Posted October 20, 2014 Author Share Posted October 20, 2014 Thing is you gotta fuckin' raise the cunts something, right? And each side is just like, ideas, more or less, no one knows fuck all for sure. So you could raise em thinking either and like...i refuse to believe that just cuz you raise a kid to fuckin' say their prayers before dinner and go to church on a fuckin' Sunday that it means you are setting them up for a fall or that it's fuckin' evil or something, thats a load of fuckin' bollocks and just a bunch of fuckin' Science slags (no offence McLeod, Soulie ) setting themselves up as the new church, bollocks to that.Not really though is it? Y'know just wanting them to ask for evidence when somebody tells 'em something is true. The issue I have is when deliberate lies are told because the truth doesnt fit the religious world view or simply when people are making criticisms of science when theyre clearly not qualified or knowledgeable enough to do so.The reason I started this thread is that the book that I posted the picture of in the OP was being given away for free in the street the other day and when you look at it its clearly been put together very professionally in many ways.The problem is that without even taking the wrapper off it you know that whoever wrote it has no clue what theyre arguing against because they clearly havent done their homework.To argue creationism as a viable alternative to evolution as a mechanism for the creation of life is one thing but its a little pointless because evolution has nothing to do with the creation of life.They maybe should have got that little fact right before spending all that time and effort to publish this booklet no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 (edited) Not really though is it? Y'know just wanting them to ask for evidence when somebody tells 'em something is true.What, when they're born? The issue I have is when deliberate lies are told because the truth doesnt fit the religious world view or simply when people are making criticisms of science when theyre clearly not qualified or knowledgeable enough to do so.Yeah but they don't all do it like that.The problem is that without even taking the wrapper off it you know that whoever wrote it has no clue what theyre arguing against because they clearly havent done their homework.To argue creationism as a viable alternative to evolution as a mechanism for the creation of life is one thing but its a little pointless because evolution has nothing to do with the creation of life.They maybe should have got that little fact right before spending all that time and effort to publish this booklet no? I don't think any of that is enough to like...hold the position you are holding. It's just ideas about the world and the world around them, so whats being suggested here, that nothing except that which is as close to being scientific fact should be taught to kids at all and we should endeavour to keep them as blank a canvas as you possibly can with a view to having them open minded enough when they come of age to make their own desicions, it's simply not practical, their is grey area in everything, we don't live in a world 100% wholly determined by absolute fact.Everybody raises their kids in accordance to what they believe about the world and that is due to each individuals unique experience, no one man is an authority on life over and above another, we just all have our ideas and act accordingly, you cannot raise a blank canvas, the world simply doesn't work that way.In fact, i think the truth can even be damaging, depending on how you mete it out. I mean I could sit there and, with a view to dedication to 'the truth', fill a kids head with 'morality is an illusory human construct that is a hinderance to our evolution and it must be shed if we are to truly realise our potential as Gods on earth', now i could argue that theory with you all fuckin' day long and the best we'll end on is 'agree to disagree', meaning you won't necessarily be able to prove me wrong...and a lot of the substance of that theory is based on certain realities...probably not a healthy way to raise a kid though, is it? Now you could sit there and tell me how thats wrong and tantamount to child abuse but then says who, what, Chris McLeod? We're back to the same thing then aren't we, this sort of dictatorial authority regarding 'the truth', which no sod knows anyroad! Edited October 20, 2014 by Lennie Godber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 If you believe your child's Christian salvation will be seriously impeded (I am trying to phrase it to include as many denominations as possible) by he or she being, unbaptised - if you truly believe this (i.e. the concept called 'faith') - then it would take a terribly reckless pair of parents to, not, get their child baptised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lithium Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Yeah I'm sure all the kids of atheists are totally open to any belief system and 99.9% of them aren't essentially confirmed atheists.Probably not, but that's at least what I want for my future children. I'll gladly tell them all about things that are proven scientific facts, but let them decide their stance on religion and other superstition by themselves once they are old enough to think rationally, and don't believe blindly in what me or other people tell them. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Yeah I'm sure all the kids of atheists are totally open to any belief system and 99.9% of them aren't essentially confirmed atheists.Probably not, but that's at least what I want for my future children. I'll gladly tell them all about things that are proven scientific facts, but let them decide their stance on religion and other superstition by themselves once they are old enough to think rationally, and don't believe blindly in what me or other people tell them.Exactly.I want the best for my children so I certainly won't fill their heads at a crucial time of development with things that are obviously wrong. I think all parents should refrain from pushing their own irrational beliefs on to their kids. We should want them to be better than ourselves, not inherent our own follies. Raise them with a sense of critical thinking and they may be able to judge the inherent merits and values of various religions and world views themselves when that time comes, without first having to free themselves from the vertically inherited religion we planted in their sponge-like minds at a time when they had no way of resisting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 The whole idea of the issue is attempting to understanding the other sides perspective, it's sorta for granted that everybody wants their own thing for their kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Well, you can't give them all sides of the perspectives, better to leave them a blank canvas but with the ability to themselves find what is best for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Yeah I'm sure all the kids of atheists are totally open to any belief system and 99.9% of them aren't essentially confirmed atheists.Probably not, but that's at least what I want for my future children. I'll gladly tell them all about things that are proven scientific facts, but let them decide their stance on religion and other superstition by themselves once they are old enough to think rationally, and don't believe blindly in what me or other people tell them.Exactly.I want the best for my children so I certainly won't fill their heads at a crucial time of development with things that are obviously wrong. I think all parents should refrain from pushing their own irrational beliefs on to their kids. We should want them to be better than ourselves, not inherent our own follies. Raise them with a sense of critical thinking and they may be able to judge the inherent merits and values of various religions and world views themselves when that time comes, without first having to free themselves from the vertically inherited religion we planted in their sponge-like minds at a time when they had no way of resisting.This post is not objective in the slightest. If you truly want to ''raise them with a sense of critical thinking and they may be able to judge the inherent merits and values of various religions and world views themselves when that time comes'' you would not wish to impose your own belief system on them (assuming you would use similar language with your children). I have put in bold the relevant passages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Yeah I'm sure all the kids of atheists are totally open to any belief system and 99.9% of them aren't essentially confirmed atheists.Probably not, but that's at least what I want for my future children. I'll gladly tell them all about things that are proven scientific facts, but let them decide their stance on religion and other superstition by themselves once they are old enough to think rationally, and don't believe blindly in what me or other people tell them.Exactly.I want the best for my children so I certainly won't fill their heads at a crucial time of development with things that are obviously wrong. I think all parents should refrain from pushing their own irrational beliefs on to their kids. We should want them to be better than ourselves, not inherent our own follies. Raise them with a sense of critical thinking and they may be able to judge the inherent merits and values of various religions and world views themselves when that time comes, without first having to free themselves from the vertically inherited religion we planted in their sponge-like minds at a time when they had no way of resisting.This post is not objective in the slightest. If you truly want to ''raise them with a sense of critical thinking and they may be able to judge the inherent merits and values of various religions and world views themselves when that time comes'' you would not wish to impose your own belief system on them (assuming you would use similar language with your children). I have put in bold the relevant passages.There is so much wrong with this post. First, for unknown reasons, you seem to resent the fact that my post wasn't objective. Why should it be? I was talking about my own subjective opinions on parenting in regards to unsubstantiated beliefs. Secondly, you seem unable to grasp the notion that my critique towards theisms as shown here on a discussion board between adults may not reflect the way I would talk about theism to my children. You have to look at context. That being said, if you truly understood what I was saying -- and theref is absolutely no reason to assume you do -- you would know that I am only talking about those things where we DO have the answers, as in me never teaching my kids something which is obviously wrong, is right. For those things where the jury is out, so to speak -- like in regards to models of abiogenesis, exobiology, beginning of time, and other fields of science where we still only have weak models -- I will do my utmost to not push my own opinions on my kids because I am know perfectly well that it might turn out I am wrong and I do not want my kids to inherit being wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Well in fairness I stated in parenthesis, ''assuming you would use similar language with your children''; if you do not use a similar crass anti-religious rhetoric to your children as you do on this forum, then I apologise for that assumption. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) My fault, I missed the assumption.Anyway. If anyone still is wondering what I talk to my children about, here's the answer:I talk to them about things we do know, not thing we don't know. The reason for this is simple: Things we know are more relevant to our lives, and things we don't know far outnumber by far the things we do know. So I will talk to my children about the history of the world, how our planet came to be, how life originated (with the details unfortunately missing), how life is contunuously changing and adapting to changing environments, how humans came to be, the history of humankind, how civilizations have emerged and gone under, why things are like they are today (as far as we know), how human behaviour is dictated by our genes, the importance of love for a good life, the imortance of the golden rule for society and humanity, the dark sides of our nature and how they result in war and atrocities, the elementary of physics and how it relates to everyday phenomena, understanding the physical powers that rule the world like gravity, the physics of materials, Newton's laws, electricity, combustion, inorganic chemistry and how this results in different chemicals with different properties, and so on. Basically the things we as a collective knows for certain and which we all ought to know to some degree. Surely, this will be skewed towards those things that I happen to know, but I will make a great effort into always finding things out for my kids if I don't know the answer when my kids ask. As an example, when delivering my oldest in the kindergarden today she showed me a couple of dinosaur figures and told me how that specific dinosaur can change colours. I told here that this is not something we know for certain and asked her if she knows of any animals living today who can change their colour, and we then talked about both chameleons and octopus, and will look for movies of these later today when we are home again. Kids are so incredibly curious.So what about religion? To a certain degree it will be touched upon in the things I mentioned above, but what is important to understand is that Norway, to a smaller degree than most countries, doesn't have a society permeated by religion anymore. We are mostly a country of non-believers. My children won't come in contact with religion to a large extent in their daily lives. There are no people in their lives who are actively religious, there is no religion in kindergarden or school. There is almost as little reason for me to expand upon the subject of contemporary religion as it is to talk about dead religions, because for most practical purposes today's religions are extinct in Norway. Okay, I exaggerate, but my point is that I won't have to explain these things the same way you might have in a country that is largely Catholic or Muslim. So there is little reason for me to devote particular time to talk about extant religions, not much more than to talk about any or all of the thousands of religions that humans once believed in but have stopped doing, or for that reaso, any other subject humans used to believe in but which we have now discarded.In other words, I see little reason to talk about the various obviously wrong creation myths, like that world was originally underwater and that humans were created from clay, that the sun, moon are stars were vomited by the god Mbombo, or that the god Yahwe created the world in sex days. Nor will I waste time talking about various other religious misconceptions or anything else that is obviously wrong or for which no evidence exist, like creationism, the concept of the soul, afterlife, Hell, original sin, resurrection, etc. It takes time away from what could be better spent on other things, and it is unpedagogic (I believe). Of course, some of this will be broached when I talk about the history of mankind, and to a lesser degree I will have to talk to my kids about contemporary religions, at least when it comes to how these still affect politics and society (like why there is war in Syria and Iraq, or, to be more insular, why some people in the kindergarden won't eat pork). So the only reason I will devote time to some unsubstantiated ideas over other unsubstantiated ideas, is when any of these haven't yet been discarded from the minds of humans but still to smaller or larger extent shape socities.Again, we know SO MUCH about the world we live. So many fantastic, glorious, wonderful things about this complicated, indifferent world. I owe it to my kids to talk about these things. To let them know as well. Because knowledge is not only valuable in a very personal way, it is also power -- it will help them in life by giving them the tools to make hard decisions perhaps easier, and give them the freedom to be what they want to be. But as for things that are obviously wrong, although I might enjoy religious myths personally (and have a section of books to prove it), I see no reason why such things would come far up on the list of things to talk to my kids about (besides, kids are very practical, they talk about things that they can see and touch, not abstract concepts), at least not when the kids are young. When they know the fundamentals of how this world works, like cause and effect, how humans can find things out, how we think and how we make mistakes, etc, then I believe they will be well suited to ponder the questions that remain for themselves. The best thing I can give them is the freedom to make their own decisions and choices on those things were I don't have the answers. If they do that, and regardless of whether the decisions they make are the same as mine, then I have done a good job. To make it short: it is better to teach them how to figure things out, than to give them the answers I have arrived at. Edited October 21, 2014 by SoulMonster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Seems a recipe to produce smug children. What if your kids hate science? I loathed the subject at school. A lot of kids do. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Seems a recipe to produce smug children. What if your kids hate science? I loathed the subject at school. A lot of kids do.Smug? No, knowledgable. How they express that knowledge is unrelated to what I have talked about. They might be smug about it, or they might not be.If my kids hate knowledge? Well, I certainly won't force knowledge to them if they are not interested. You seem to have interpreted my post above like me having scheduled lectures with them or something like that No, like other kids they are incredibly inquisitive, so they ask questions and I answer them as best I can. And it was my perspective on how to answer those questions that I tried to explain above. It is unfortunate that a meme that is so full of errors in representing scientific theories on cosmology and abiogenesis is so popular among theists. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Seems a recipe to produce smug children. What if your kids hate science? I loathed the subject at school. A lot of kids do.Smug? No, knowledgable. How they express that knowledge is unrelated to what I have talked about. They might be smug about it, or they might not be.If my kids hate knowledge? Well, I certainly won't force knowledge to them if they are not interested. You seem to have interpreted my post above like me having scheduled lectures with them or something like that No, like other kids they are incredibly inquisitive, so they ask questions and I answer them as best I can. And it was my perspective on how to answer those questions that I tried to explain above. It is unfortunate that a meme that is so full of errors in representing scientific theories on cosmology and abiogenesis is so popular among theists.My point is, they might just hate science, not knowledge per se. I mention this because what you seem to be proposing here is an education based on science and the strictest empirical inquiry. There exist other educational methods. But where you run into difficulties is, they might attend physics, learn about the Big Bang, and fall asleep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) My point is, they might just hate science, not knowledge per se. I mention this because what you seem to be proposing here is an education based on science and the strictest empirical inquiry. There exist other educational methods. But where you run into difficulties is, they might attend physics, learn about the Big Bang, and fall asleep.In the sense I will even broach the subject of epistemology (the science of how we can know things) -- a bit heavy for a 4 and a 2 year old, perhaps? -- I will of course focus on the method that has shown itself to be far superior to all others, which is the modern scientific method, and not -- and this goes back to my ovarll point -- in any way present alternative methods of creating knowledge as equal to the scientific method. As an example, I will spend a incredible small amount on the method of mystical revelation except, perhaps, as a curious sidenote. And if they find this subject boring, which might well be, then they simply won't ask any more questions about it and I won't talk more about it. But if they should be curious as to how we can figure out things and create knowledge, and sooner or later I suppose they will be, then I will of course to the best of my abilities answer these questions, too, like I will with any other questions they might raise. Edited October 21, 2014 by SoulMonster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axls Rocket Queen Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Jeez guys it was a joke Just a nice parallel to the kind of misguided over-simplification that some atheists like to use to ridicule believers. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) Don't take it bad dearie, you just blew the whistle, the following 90 minutes was all this pack of cuntses doing I suppose I should include myself in that. Fuck that, I wannabe the skipper. Here, Captain Cunt, i like it Edited October 21, 2014 by Lennie Godber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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