GNR Women's discussion

[marlingrl03]

I'm looking forward to more pics like that too....especially now that Axl is up walking around!  Can't wait to see the videos from tonight's show!!!! 

[Andy14]

@Lumikki Great picture . Can't wait to see more of them soon. 

It breaks my heart that I can't watch it tonight. Moreover tomorrow I'm leaving for a weekend, so on Sunday evening I'll be really hungry for all the information, videos and photos 

 

Question of the day: What outfit will Axl be wearing tonight? 

[pinkforgirls]

3 minutes ago, Andy14 said:

@Lumikki Great picture . Can't wait to see more of them soon. 

It breaks my heart that I can't watch it tonight. Moreover tomorrow I'm leaving for a weekend, so on Sunday evening I'll be really hungry for all the information, videos and photos 

 

Question of the day: What outfit will Axl be wearing tonight? 

Well unfortunately for me the chest protector, kilt and combat boots won't be making an appearance. But I am betting he'll wear the bones jacket. 

[Andy14]

5 minutes ago, pinkforgirls said:

Well unfortunately for me the chest protector, kilt and combat boots won't be making an appearance. But I am betting he'll wear the bones jacket. 

I'd love to see that outfit too! And I still hope for the AXL sneakers to come back. 

[MillionsOfSpiders]

I was planning on waking up/staying awake to watch the updates, but I'm not going to now cos I have a killer migraine, thanks to working too many 14hr night shifts 

The whole Axl and Slash together excitement has come back for me, thought it was gone after ACDC, but nope, it's still there! 

I reckon Axl might just wear a hat tonight..who knows ey? 

[killuridols]

7 hours ago, Lumikki said:

You mean this quote (and some bits that came before that), right?

RIP: How do you think your childhood traumas affected your adult sexuality?

AXL: I couldn't be with someone sexually in a nice way, because I was made to feel like I was doing something wrong - even if it was someone I liked. The only way I could enjoy sex was if I got into being the "bad guy." Finally I grew tired of being the bad guy. I love this person I'm with. Why do I have to always maintain a low level of self-esteem in order to feel alright? I don't feel alright feeling like a piece of shit, and I don't want to be a f?!king piece of shit. Even though it was put into my head years ago, by reading up on abuse and doing the work I'm doing, I've found out that's how it works. It's a real weird thing to have to deal with. You know, I'm grown up now. That was a long time ago. I'm supposed to have gotten past that. Yeah, maybe.

I'll admit this does give off some disturbingly "Criminial minds" type of vibes, but not "being with someone sexually in a nice way" or "being the bad guy" doesn't necessarily have to mean he was (generally) really violent during sex or anything. It could just mean he couldn't let himself be as gentle, loving or "open" (as he recently called it) as he wanted to be and that he was in a pretty bad headspace while having sex.

But whatever he meant, I think the important thing here is that he says he didn't like being that way and that it made him feel like shit. I see that quote as saying that he was a certain way because of his past, which left him pretty messed up in many ways, but that he wanted to move on from that and not be like that anymore because it made him feel terrible. That's very different from someone who's just kinky and into hardcore sex because that's just what they get off on.

As for Gina Siler, she just said Axl could be terrifying when he was in one of his moods and came at you from across the room, iirc. Nothing necessarily sexual about that. I always took that to mean as her implying that he could be violent sometimes. Same as we know from Erin and Stephanie. Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt at all that everything they said happened. I can believe every word Erin said, even about Axl raping her. And I don't want to make excuses or anything, but all that violence in my eyes is just a result of him being such a fucked-up person, whether due to his childhood, mental health issues or both. And again, he was very, very unhappy about that. So miserable in fact that he tried to find help in all kinds of crazy places and went through insane amounts of therapy. This discussion started off as debating how kinky Axl (and the other guys) were and I guess what it comes down to for me is that yes, Axl probably has done some horrible shit, but he isn't a ridiculously "kinky", sadistic or sexually violent person as a rule and he doesn't want to be that way either. For me there is a difference between someone who's done fucked-up shit because he was a really messed-up person and then tried really hard to get away from all that, and someone who is just really kinky or depraved because that's just what turns them on and they don't have any problem with it. Am I making sense? I'm sorry, it's a little difficult for me to express what I'm thinking in English at times.

You made all the sense in the world. It is perfect how you put it out.

I am so in love with you. I just can't take it

 

 

 

 

lol

[starlight]

I 100% agree with you about Axl's sexuality...he just couldn't find a proper way to express it due to his past and this caused him a lot of frustration that led to anger and violent behaviour. I don't believe he was really that way his mind was just too disfunctional

[Frey]

1 hour ago, starlight said:

I don't believe he was really that way his mind was just too disfunctional

And dysfunctional is putting it mildly. The fascinating thing about Axl is that this guy literally was a women beating serial rapist scumbag, and yet he apparently somehow managed to stop and become a better person (at least we haven't heard about him doing anything like that for like a quarter of a century now). He's the only guy I can think of who did that, usually these kinds of people don't change their ways in my experience. I don't know whether to be impressed or disturbed.

(And yes, serial rapist. It wasn't just Erin. There was also this girl: 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3430098/Former-Penthouse-Pet-Year-live-lover-Bob-Guccione-tells-drugged-Axl-Rose-grabbed-hair-dragged-carpet-tied-hands-sex-said-sorry.html

Gotta love that he said "sorry" afterwards. As if that makes it okay . And let's not forget he also pushed a girl down the stairs for refusing to have sex with him according to Niven and also Adler I think. So fucked up.)

Edited June 23, 2016 by Frey

[Blackstar]

3 hours ago, Lumikki said:

You mean this quote (and some bits that came before that), right?

RIP: How do you think your childhood traumas affected your adult sexuality?

AXL: I couldn't be with someone sexually in a nice way, because I was made to feel like I was doing something wrong - even if it was someone I liked. The only way I could enjoy sex was if I got into being the "bad guy." Finally I grew tired of being the bad guy. I love this person I'm with. Why do I have to always maintain a low level of self-esteem in order to feel alright? I don't feel alright feeling like a piece of shit, and I don't want to be a f?!king piece of shit. Even though it was put into my head years ago, by reading up on abuse and doing the work I'm doing, I've found out that's how it works. It's a real weird thing to have to deal with. You know, I'm grown up now. That was a long time ago. I'm supposed to have gotten past that. Yeah, maybe.

I'll admit this does give off some disturbingly "Criminial minds" type of vibes, but not "being with someone sexually in a nice way" or "being the bad guy" doesn't necessarily have to mean he was (generally) really violent during sex or anything. It could just mean he couldn't let himself be as gentle, loving or "open" (as he recently called it) as he wanted to be and that he was in a pretty bad headspace while having sex.

But whatever he meant, I think the important thing here is that he says he didn't like being that way and that it made him feel like shit. I see that quote as saying that he was a certain way because of his past, which left him pretty messed up in many ways, but that he wanted to move on from that and not be like that anymore because it made him feel terrible. That's very different from someone who's just kinky and into hardcore sex because that's just what they get off on.

As for Gina Siler, she just said Axl could be terrifying when he was in one of his moods and came at you from across the room, iirc. Nothing necessarily sexual about that. I always took that to mean as her implying that he could be violent sometimes. Same as we know from Erin and Stephanie. Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt at all that everything they said happened. I can believe every word Erin said, even about Axl raping her. And I don't want to make excuses or anything, but all that violence in my eyes is just a result of him being such a fucked-up person, whether due to his childhood, mental health issues or both. And again, he was very, very unhappy about that. So miserable in fact that he tried to find help in all kinds of crazy places and went through insane amounts of therapy. This discussion started off as debating how kinky Axl (and the other guys) were and I guess what it comes down to for me is that yes, Axl probably has done some horrible shit, but he isn't a ridiculously "kinky", sadistic or sexually violent person as a rule and he doesn't want to be that way either. For me there is a difference between someone who's done fucked-up shit because he was a really messed-up person and then tried really hard to get away from all that, and someone who is just really kinky or depraved because that's just what turns them on and they don't have any problem with it. Am I making sense? I'm sorry, it's a little difficult for me to express what I'm thinking in English at times.

Maybe "violent" was a wrong choice of word and "aggressive", which ranges from being, as you say, not gentle to being violent, would be more suitable (I have difficulty with English, too, and not just at times. ). I didn't mean that him being like that was a vice.  And yeah, I agree that he felt bad about it and he wanted to move on, but I'm not sure if he was self-aware the time he was the "bad guy" i.e. before he started therapy (edit: if the story in the article @Frey posted is true, I don't know if the fact that he said "sorry" means he was self-aware). By the way, this could be an explanation of his growing fondness of ballads; maybe it was his way to express, not only through lyrics but through music too, the tenderness and affection he wasn't able or allowed to show in his relationships.

I referenced Gina Siler in relevance to what Slash and Duff (and other people) had said about Axl's moods, not to the discussion about his sexuality. I agree with everything you say about the causes.

I feel the need to say that I like all the old members and I think they all contributed equally to what the band has been. Personality-wise though, Axl is the one who I find most interesting and intriguing. I also believe that mental issues (be it BPD or something else) are more difficult to deal with than drugs alone and I always have this in mind when I write about Axl, but at the same time I want to be as objective as I can.

 

[stella]

@Lumikki

 

Quote

Yes, there have been a lot of cases recently where porn actors have come forward and talked about being pressured/coerced/blackmailed into things. And about all the injuries and health problems they suffered because of it. Call me a prude, but I think the entire industry is shady as fuck and very exploitative of women.

 

I agree. There doesn't seem to be a lot of protection for adult performers in most jurisdictions, and a lot of them suffer major physical and emotional issues. In California there's a union or some sort of coalition that tries to protect the adult film performers in the state, but I'd bet that there are a lot of issues that go unreported and undocumented, regardless.

 

Quote

Yeah, Tom Zutaut... whether it's Slash's soul leaving his body, Axl being raped by his stepfather in public toilets or all these weird stories about Buckethead... Tom Zutaut always talks about the most WTF/horrifying shit. I don't know what his deal is, but I really hope he wouldn't just make up stuff like the story about Axl and his stepfather for some bizarre reason.

 

He does, doesn't he, LOL? Interesting thing is that he seems really earnest, seems to be liked by the bands he works with, and doesn't seem to have any sort of malicious agenda or bias against any of the members like others do (*cough Niven*). He doesn't seem like the sort of person who would make shit up like that.

I love this photo of Tom Zutaut (striped shirt) at Motley Crue's signing in the early 80s. He's the one who courted them and worked for a major record label, but in this photo he looks like someone's kid brother that tagged along for the ride, LOL.

I think the below (the forum isn't letting me end the quote there for some reason so I can't reply below) is very well thought out and articulated. Axl did some absolutely horrible things to the women in his life, and that can't be minimized or explained away. It's said that being abused raises one's likelihood of becoming an abuser in many cases, and that seems to be true here: as he's said, he was repeating the patterns he'd seen in his own life and had to actively work to get past that. But unlike a lot of people, he really does seem to have made a sustained, concerted effort to become aware of that behavior and his overall anger toward women, say that he did not agree with it anymore, and get help so he could CHANGE it. Most of the time people really don't change in this respect; I'd be willing to wager that he has.

It's a good point that nobody's heard of him doing anything of this nature for 23 years. Also, Axl now deeply respects and trusts two different women, Beta and Vanessa - Beta's opinions and perspectives mean a lot to him, and the fact that she's running the management show really speaks volumes to how much Axl has evolved on this matter.

 

Quote

I'll admit this does give off some disturbingly "Criminial minds" type of vibes, but not "being with someone sexually in a nice way" or "being the bad guy" doesn't necessarily have to mean he was (generally) really violent during sex or anything. It could just mean he couldn't let himself be as gentle, loving or "open" (as he recently called it) as he wanted to be and that he was in a pretty bad headspace while having sex.

But whatever he meant, I think the important thing here is that he says he didn't like being that way and that it made him feel like shit. I see that quote as saying that he was a certain way because of his past, which left him pretty messed up in many ways, but that he wanted to move on from that and not be like that anymore because it made him feel terrible. That's very different from someone who's just kinky and into hardcore sex because that's just what they get off on.

As for Gina Siler, she just said Axl could be terrifying when he was in one of his moods and came at you from across the room, iirc. Nothing necessarily sexual about that. I always took that to mean as her implying that he could be violent sometimes. Same as we know from Erin and Stephanie. Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt at all that everything they said happened. I can believe every word Erin said, even about Axl raping her. And I don't want to make excuses or anything, but all that violence in my eyes is just a result of him being such a fucked-up person, whether due to his childhood, mental health issues or both. And again, he was very, very unhappy about that. So miserable in fact that he tried to find help in all kinds of crazy places and went through insane amounts of therapy. This discussion started off as debating how kinky Axl (and the other guys) were and I guess what it comes down to for me is that yes, Axl probably has done some horrible shit, but he isn't a ridiculously "kinky", sadistic or sexually violent person as a rule and he doesn't want to be that way either. For me there is a difference between someone who's done fucked-up shit because he was a really messed-up person and then tried really hard to get away from all that, and someone who is just really kinky or depraved because that's just what turns them on and they don't have any problem with it. Am I making sense? I'm sorry, it's a little difficult for me to express what I'm thinking in English at times.

 

Edited June 23, 2016 by stella

[killuridols]

3 hours ago, Frey said:

And dysfunctional is putting it mildly. The fascinating thing about Axl is that this guy literally was a women beating serial rapist scumbag, and yet he apparently somehow managed to stop and become a better person (at least we haven't heard about him doing anything like that for like a quarter of a century now). He's the only guy I can think of who did that, usually these kinds of people don't change their ways in my experience. I don't know whether to be impressed or disturbed.

(And yes, serial rapist. It wasn't just Erin. There was also this girl: 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3430098/Former-Penthouse-Pet-Year-live-lover-Bob-Guccione-tells-drugged-Axl-Rose-grabbed-hair-dragged-carpet-tied-hands-sex-said-sorry.html

Gotta love that he said "sorry" afterwards. As if that makes it okay . And let's not forget he also pushed a girl down the stairs for refusing to have sex with him according to Niven and also Adler I think. So fucked up.)

I think you've gone too far there, dude.

Watch your mouth.

[Frey]

23 minutes ago, killuridols said:

I think you've gone too far there, dude.

Watch your mouth.

Well it ain't pretty, but it's true  Would you say the same thing if we weren't talking about Axl but just some random dude who was accused of the same things by multiple people? 

Usually no one defends these guys, but Axl gets a pass because he's... talented? famous? pretty to look at?

[Archtop]

Um well, I will check back in here tomorrow when hopefully the conversation gets a bit lighter.

???????

[MillionsOfSpiders]

6 minutes ago, Archtop said:

Um well, I will check back in here tomorrow when hopefully the conversation gets a bit lighter.

???????

Exactly the same thought as me  

[Andy14]

9 minutes ago, Archtop said:

Um well, I will check back in here tomorrow when hopefully the conversation gets a bit lighter.

???????

 

2 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

Exactly the same thought as me  

I'll give it a whole weekend 

No social media, no gnr forum, no videos and photos from the show, no reviews 

[killuridols]

14 minutes ago, Frey said:

Well it ain't pretty, but it's true  Would you say the same thing if we weren't talking about Axl but just some random dude who was accused of the same things by multiple people? 

Usually no one defends these guys, but Axl gets a pass because he's... talented? famous? pretty to look at?

If I had PROOF the guy did those things I wouldn't say anything and by proof I mean real charges in court, the police or whatever that I can check it's not a made up story by some random chick, who's trying to sell a book with these lame stories.

If she was raped for real she wouldn't be trying to cash in from such an awful experience. No rape victim goes all stupid on video talking like she was talking in that video.

And I think that calling Axl a "serial rapist scumbag" is really wrong. You could even get in trouble for stating those things without proof of any kind. That's why I say watch your mouth. You're seriously accusing someone of being a rapist. That's fucked up.

[Frey]

43 minutes ago, killuridols said:

You're seriously accusing someone of being a rapist. That's fucked up.

Well, so did Erin. And the general consensus here seems to be to believe her. And I happen to believe her too. But if I believe what Erin said about Axl raping her, than consequently that makes Axl a rapist in my mind then.

And just because she's making money of her book doesn't automatically make her untrustworthy. By that logic Steph and Erin would be untrustworthy too, since they never pressed criminal charges against Axl, but only ever went to civil court and received financial settlements.

I will agree though that I maybe shouldn't have used the particular wording I used. Even though I think it's true, it was pretty crass.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Frey

[Lumikki]

2 hours ago, Blackstar said:

Maybe "violent" was a wrong choice of word and "aggressive", which ranges from being, as you say, not gentle to being violent, would be more suitable (I have difficulty with English, too, and not just at times. ). I didn't mean that him being like that was a vice.  And yeah, I agree that he felt bad about it and he wanted to move on, but I'm not sure if he was self-aware the time he was the "bad guy" i.e. before he started therapy (edit: if the story in the article @Frey posted is true, I don't know if the fact that he said "sorry" means he was self-aware). By the way, this could be an explanation of his growing fondness of ballads; maybe it was his way to express, not only through lyrics but through music too, the tenderness and affection he wasn't able or allowed to show in his relationships.

I referenced Gina Siler in relevance to what Slash and Duff (and other people) had said about Axl's moods, not to the discussion about his sexuality. I agree with everything you say about the causes.

I feel the need to say that I like all the old members and I think they all contributed equally to what the band has been. Personality-wise though, Axl is the one who I find most interesting and intriguing. I also believe that mental issues (be it BPD or something else) are more difficult to deal with than drugs alone and I always have this in mind when I write about Axl, but at the same time I want to be as objective as I can.

I gotcha.

And I agree, I like all of the guys as well, but yes, for better or worse, Axl is the most interesting one to discuss.  This thread isn't so heavy on the Axl discussion for no reason after all

Interesting point about the ballads, I could see that. As for self-awareness... I do think he knew what he was doing was wrong. If you read through the letters Erin auctioned off, there's plenty of apologizing on his part going on there. For what we can only guess, but I remember it reading like a typical abusive relationship. And that he apparently apologized to that Penthouse girl after doing that to her... yeah.

Also, urgh, reading that article makes me wanna strangle him. Even though she's obviously trying to sell her book, that story is not hard to believe at all. And what she describes matches the things Erin described (the thing about dragging her around by her hair, etc.).

Axl is lucky that woman was/is too messed up herself to realize what he did and/or not inclined to press charges.

 

2 hours ago, stella said:

@Lumikki

I agree. There doesn't seem to be a lot of protection for adult performers in most jurisdictions, and a lot of them suffer major physical and emotional issues. In California there's a union or some sort of coalition that tries to protect the adult film performers in the state, but I'd bet that there are a lot of issues that go unreported and undocumented, regardless.

He does, doesn't he, LOL? Interesting thing is that he seems really earnest, seems to be liked by the bands he works with, and doesn't seem to have any sort of malicious agenda or bias against any of the members like others do (*cough Niven*). He doesn't seem like the sort of person who would make shit up like that.

I love this photo of Tom Zutaut (striped shirt) at Motley Crue's signing in the early 80s. He's the one who courted them and worked for a major record label, but in this photo he looks like someone's kid brother that tagged along for the ride, LOL.

I think the below (the forum isn't letting me end the quote there for some reason so I can't reply below) is very well thought out and articulated. Axl did some absolutely horrible things to the women in his life, and that can't be minimized or explained away. It's said that being abused raises one's likelihood of becoming an abuser in many cases, and that seems to be true here: as he's said, he was repeating the patterns he'd seen in his own life and had to actively work to get past that. But unlike a lot of people, he really does seem to have made a sustained, concerted effort to become aware of that behavior and his overall anger toward women, say that he did not agree with it anymore, and get help so he could CHANGE it. Most of the time people really don't change in this respect; I'd be willing to wager that he has.

It's a good point that nobody's heard of him doing anything of this nature for 23 years. Also, Axl now deeply respects and trusts two different women, Beta and Vanessa - Beta's opinions and perspectives mean a lot to him, and the fact that she's running the management show really speaks volumes to how much Axl has evolved on this matter.

I agree, Tom Zutaut does seem earnest and comes across as a nice guy usually. Maybe that's why he knows so much weird stuff, because he seems trustworthy and people tell him all kinds of things. Although he did end up on Axl's "enemy list" after all, iirc. LOL.

And yes, I think he really has changed as well. I guess he deserves some credit for that, it can't have been easy. I do remember him talking about abuse being generational and running in families and him saying something like "It ends with me." Seems like he really managed to do that.

And good point about Beta and Vanessa (and the 23 years). I agree, it does speak volumes. Hell, you could even count Kat and Sasha. As much as I'm not very fond of his entourage, he's surrounded by, dependent on and close with a lot of women nowadays, and it seems to work well.

 

6 hours ago, killuridols said:

You made all the sense in the world. It is perfect how you put it out.

I am so in love with you. I just can't take it

lol

Daww, you're so sweet

 

7 hours ago, Andy14 said:

@Lumikki Great picture . Can't wait to see more of them soon. 

It breaks my heart that I can't watch it tonight. Moreover tomorrow I'm leaving for a weekend, so on Sunday evening I'll be really hungry for all the information, videos and photos 

We'll catch you up with everything you missed out on, guaranteed

 

7 hours ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

I was planning on waking up/staying awake to watch the updates, but I'm not going to now cos I have a killer migraine, thanks to working too many 14hr night shifts 

The whole Axl and Slash together excitement has come back for me, thought it was gone after ACDC, but nope, it's still there! 

I'm debating with myself whether to stay up or go to bed lol.

And I'm starting to feel really excited now as well!  I hope this is gonna be goooood.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Lumikki

[Andy14]

5 minutes ago, Lumikki said:

We'll catch you up with everything you missed out on, guaranteed

 

I'm debating with myself whether to stay up or go to bed lol.

And I'm starting to feel really excited now as well!  I hope this is gonna be goooood.

Thank you! 

 

I really need to go to bed in a while, even though I know I won't be able to fall asleep . So it's possible that at 5 a.m.  I'll be secretly reading the posts about the show 

[killuridols]

56 minutes ago, Frey said:

Well, so did Erin. And the general consensus here seems to be to believe her. And I happen to believe her too. But if I believe what Erin said about Axl raping her, than consequently that makes Axl a rapist in my mind then.

And just because she's making money of her book doesn't automatically make her untrustworthy. By that logic Steph and Erin would be untrustworthy too, since they never pressed criminal charges against Axl, but only ever went to civil court and received financial settlements.

I will agree though that I maybe shouldn't have used the particular wording I used. Even though I think it's true, it was pretty crass.

Do you have a copy of the court papers so that I can read what words were used by Erin?

Sheila:
"Today Sheila Kennedy, 53, carries no scars from the incident and is positive about this and much of the life that she lived as a Penthouse Pet."

The scene was, she says, 'Straight out of Boogie Nights. There was cocaine everywhere, pills, champagne and I just happened to go into his bathroom and I'm looking around, everybody's in the living room, and I see bottles of lithium and all this stuff. And I'm thinking, 'He is about to explode. This guy is on everything right now. And I got kind of scared.'

But she ignored every instinct and stayed. 

Looking back, she says she felt used by the Guns N' Roses frontman. 

'I think I walked into a situation that was ugly and I should have left but there was something in me that was attracted to him and I thought he's a good looking guy, I could have fun with him,' says Sheila.

 

Those things she say sound to me like "consent sex". She consented to all that. Never used the word rape, though. She knew, kinda imagined something like that was going to happen and she stayed. Then she says she's positive about these experiences and proud of the life she's lived??

Ok. Whatever. I'm sorry but a person like that is not trustworthy. She could have read what other women said before and make up the whole story, then write it on a book and there she goes selling the stuff. Where's the proof of what she says? And she's trying to profit from that story now... I'm sorry but anyone exposing heavy crap like that, in a tell-all book, instead of looking for justice are not getting any pity from me.

[Frey]

45 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Do you have a copy of the court papers so that I can read what words were used by Erin?

I dont have the court papers, but excerpts from the court papers have been used in many articles. The words she used:

Everly herself claimed Axl sexually assaulted her. She described a day when Axl ordered her to take off a bathing suit she was wearing, after which he tied her hands to her ankles from behind, put masking tape over her mouth and a bandana around her eyes, and led her, naked into a closet, where she remained for several hours while Axl talked to a friend of hers in the living room.

Later, according to Everly, Axl untied her, picked her up and tied her, face down, to a convertible bed. And then, "he forced himself on me anally really hard. Really hard."

"Were you screaming?" she was asked.

"Yes."

"How long did that last?"

"I don't remember."

"What happened when it was over?"

"He took it out and stuck it in my mouth."

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=32

Absolutely inexcusable 

[pinkforgirls]

Just dropping this off for @Andy14. It's filling me with joy. <333

[stella]

3 hours ago, killuridols said:

Ok. Whatever. I'm sorry but a person like that is not trustworthy. She could have read what other women said before and make up the whole story, then write it on a book and there she goes selling the stuff. Where's the proof of what she says? And she's trying to profit from that story now... I'm sorry but anyone exposing heavy crap like that, in a tell-all book, instead of looking for justice are not getting any pity from me.

Okay, I'm not going to comment on the case that's being discussed, but I am going to disagree with this. A lot of people never bring rape and sexual abuse cases to the police. There are many, many reasons for that: the statute of limitations has run out, they don't have any evidence, they're worried they will be completely destroyed by the press, they are not ready to talk about it. A lot of childhood and teen rape cases in particular keep quiet and black it all out until they're adults and they're ready to cope.

There are so many people that end up disclosing their sexual abuse or other abuse in their memoirs, and there's no reason to disbelieve them. They're not profiting from the story, but it is part of their life narrative. Others write about it in songs - The Cult, that we were talking about before, the lead singer was abused and revealed it in a song on one of the albums. Same thing with Fiona Apple, there's a song called "Sullen Girl" on Tidal which is about her experience being raped. People tend to deal with their demons by putting them into something artistic quite often. It's actually something people are encouraged to do in therapy; to find an artistic outlet to tell others. And in the telling, they often help others tell what happened to them, and comfort those who aren't ready to tell.

Remember that neither Axl nor his sister sought justice when they revealed they were abused. He talked about it in the press and then onstage at a concert. Did that mean it didn't happen? That Rolling Stone story was a lot of publicity but it helped a lot of people.

 

[killuridols]

33 minutes ago, stella said:

Okay, I'm not going to comment on the case that's being discussed, but I am going to disagree with this. A lot of people never bring rape and sexual abuse cases to the police. There are many, many reasons for that: the statute of limitations has run out, they don't have any evidence, they're worried they will be completely destroyed by the press, they are not ready to talk about it. A lot of childhood and teen rape cases in particular keep quiet and black it all out until they're adults and they're ready to cope.

There are so many people that end up disclosing their sexual abuse or other abuse in their memoirs, and there's no reason to disbelieve them. They're not profiting from the story, but it is part of their life narrative. Others write about it in songs - The Cult, that we were talking about before, the lead singer was abused and revealed it in a song on one of the albums. Same thing with Fiona Apple, there's a song called "Sullen Girl" on Tidal which is about her experience being raped. People tend to deal with their demons by putting them into something artistic quite often. It's actually something people are encouraged to do in therapy; to find an artistic outlet to tell others. And in the telling, they often help others tell what happened to them, and comfort those who aren't ready to tell.

Remember that neither Axl nor his sister sought justice when they revealed they were abused. He talked about it in the press and then onstage at a concert. Did that mean it didn't happen? That Rolling Stone story was a lot of publicity but it helped a lot of people.

Most victims of rape and abuse don't expose themselves in magazines and biographies of that type. You read about them on the papers, most of times their names are not disclosed. People who really don't want to make a circus of their sad experience don't expose themselves in the way this Sheila woman has. And the worst is that she is even proud of it, she says she carries no scars from that  

The case of the artists confessing abuse in a piece of art is different. None of them said who is their abuser or were interested in naming someone so to sell their art. They've written the songs just to get that pain out of their system, to clean themselves, not to brag about it or be like "it was part of my wild life". Tori Amos was raped too, she wrote Me & A Gun, but her attitude is nothing like this Sheila woman.

Axl exposed his step father as an abuser and he clearly sent a positive message to kids who may have been in the same situation. I really doubt that Axl could be a "serial rapist" and also talk like he talked about abuse. Or he is a huge hypocrite and a liar.

Sheila didn't use the word "rape" and she admitted to have consented to a rough sexual act. She said she stayed because she liked him. How should that be understood? It's really complicated to draw the line, it's a very thin line between what is considered rape and a consented sexual relationship that goes further than expected.

[stella]

3 hours ago, killuridols said:

Most victims of rape and abuse don't expose themselves in magazines and biographies of that type. You read about them on the papers, most of times their names are not disclosed. People who really don't want to make a circus of their sad experience don't expose themselves in the way this Sheila woman has. And the worst is that she is even proud of it, she says she carries no scars from that  

The case of the artists confessing abuse in a piece of art is different. None of them said who is their abuser or were interested in naming someone so to sell their art. They've written the songs just to get that pain out of their system, to clean themselves, not to brag about it or be like "it was part of my wild life". Tori Amos was raped too, she wrote Me & A Gun, but her attitude is nothing like this Sheila woman.

Axl exposed his step father as an abuser and he clearly sent a positive message to kids who may have been in the same situation. I really doubt that Axl could be a "serial rapist" and also talk like he talked about abuse. Or he is a huge hypocrite and a liar.

Sheila didn't use the word "rape" and she admitted to have consented to a rough sexual act. She said she stayed because she liked him. How should that be understood? It's really complicated to draw the line, it's a very thin line between what is considered rape and a consented sexual relationship that goes further than expected.

Again, I'm not commenting on the Sheila situation because I don't know enough about it, just the generalizations that were made. It's not at all true that many victims of abuse don't expose themselves in magazines and books. Their names are concealed in the press as a matter of privacy, but they do often choose to reveal themselves later.

And they do often name their accusers if they can. Look at those who accused Bill Cosby and Michael Jackson - everyone wanted to say that they were fishing for money and publicity and jumping on a bandwagon, and it's turned out that BC and MJ were just as creepy as they were claimed to be. Elizabeth Smart, Elisa Wall and Jaycee Dugard all wrote books about the abuse they suffered.

One can't discount a person's claims based on the facts that they didn't go to the police or they wrote a book about their experiences. There really isn't a grey area with rape - if someone says no, or they're unable to offer informed consent because they're underage, imprisoned, in an uneven power dynamic, impaired, drugged, etc. - it's rape. There's really nothing positive that comes to a victim from revealing they were raped or abused. They immediately have people jumping on them to discount their claims or turn them into villains, especially if they've accused someone famous.

Thus, my question about the Sheila case would be if she were impaired, if she were denied the opportunity to consent, or if she said no. I suppose one would have to read her book to figure that out, and I wouldn't be interested in doing that or making any judgments.

Edited June 24, 2016 by stella