My theoretical timeline of Guns N' Roses & Chinese Democracy

[Axl Rose aka God]

Alright so a lot of people, actually most if not all of us, don't know how Chinese Democracy was created. As in, what went down and how. Perhaps it was boredom that developed while watching Malcolm in the Middle on Netflix and realizing that I've seen this episode more than any of the others. I looked up at my Chinese Democracy vinyls, two of the three I bought, that were used primarily for displaying, and thought "How did it happen? It's so mysterious..."

So with a potential remake being speculated about, I thought of how it came about. Here's what I came up with. I'd like some help filling in the blanks, misinformation, or information that is known that I left out.

Sometime in 1998-1999

- Chinese Democracy for the most part was recorded. Oh My God was recorded and planned to be a single, but released for the movie End of Days. We know that story.

- Mixing began and for the most part I.R.S. and Catcher were well received by Axl and sent around. These songs got out

Sometime in 2000-2001

- Axl begins finalizing his first renditions of Chinese Democracy, polishing the songs as they were

- The album cover is created using the infamous bike cover that we have now. More than likely a varient of it without the current Guns N' Roses logo. Perhaps the version that was seen on the original thumbnail on Best Buy when it was able to be preordered.

2001

- Axl announces the album and describes the cover.

- 'Final' mixing is occuring.

2002

- The VMA's performance goes down and Axl has his first words with the American Media

- Axl tours ready to release Chinese Democracy however something makes him decide that it's incomplete and could be better

- Post tour, he disappears.

Somewhere between 2003-2005

- Axl's voice improves ten-fold.

- Fully knowing this, he enters the studio and either re-records or records various songs.

- Mixing on these songs begins.

2006

- It's time for another tour, determined to release the album now.

- Axl appears on MTV once again, only introducing The Killers but still appearing.

- The newly recorded songs were possibly recorded to replace songs that weren't well received or perhaps being saved for another album later

- The tour is going incredibly well and Axl is content with the mixes.

2007

- Manager announces a release date in March (there are only x remaining tuesdays!)

- The March date comes and goes

- Axl begins to realize that the manager is against him

- Chinese Democracy is put on hold

2008

- Axl is mixing the album a bit more, changing some songs (perhaps the end of Street of Dreams? having Ron and the new band members record parts)

- Axl bought various paintings from Shi Lifeng, and intended to use some as the cover art.

- The manager or record company comes to Axl and says they can't wait any longer and his intentions are ignored.

- Being forced, Axl rushes out an album but it still isn't finished, as the mixes he happened to be working on weren't completed.

- Pressing begins, Chinese Democracy having a modified bike cover, Best Buy begins preorders.

- TV spots begin. Knowing he can still create the Single Arts he uses the Red Star painting by Shi Lifeng for Chinese Democracy, and other art for Better and Street of Dreams.

- Chinese Democracy released against Axl's will. Fires the manager, does an interview trying to explain that he didn't want the album to be released the way it was.

Thoughts? A lot of these are things that have only been hinted at and can no be confirmed really. This is really just how I've imagined it, but I'd still like your opinions.

Edited October 14, 2011 by Axl Rose aka God

[Gagarin]

Yeah, there's already been an exhaustive piece cataloging this - done by a forum person - and published in a magazine.

http://www.gnrevolution.com/viewtopic.php?id=5059

[Axl Rose aka God]

Yeah, there's already been an exhaustive piece cataloging this - done by a forum person - and published in a magazine.

http://www.gnrevolution.com/viewtopic.php?id=5059

D'oh...oh well...I guess I should use my imagination for better, more constructive things haha.

[Voodoochild]

Yeah, the Chinese Whispers is awesome, but way too extensive to read. I like this short text more, but there are lots of mistakes.

Sometime in 1998-1999

- Chinese Democracy for the most part was recorded. Oh My God was recorded and planned to be a single, but released for the movie End of Days. We know that story.

- Mixing began and for the most part I.R.S. and Catcher were well received by Axl and sent around. These songs got out

I believe it began in 1997, but that's just my guess. We had at least There Was A Time too ready for a final mix.

2001

- Axl announces the album and describes the cover.

- 'Final' mixing is occuring.

Both were in 2002.

2002

- The VMA's performance goes down and Axl has his first words with the American Media

- Axl tours ready to release Chinese Democracy however something makes him decide that it's incomplete and could be better

- Post tour, he disappears.

They were still recording and writing during the 1st half, as pointed out by him in that interview on gnronline.com. "Its time to wrap up the baby".

Somewhere between 2003-2005

- Axl's voice improves ten-fold.

- Fully knowing this, he enters the studio and either re-records or records various songs.

- Mixing on these songs begins.

No, he didn't rerecord, I guess. The vocal tracks for the older songs were all from 1999-ish. Sure, he may have used this time to record, but I think the additional recording from members like Robin and Bucket (till 2004) were done by that time. Maybe that was when Bucket recorded the additional fills in Chinese Democracy, the song.

2007

- Manager announces a release date in March (there are only x remaining tuesdays!)

- The March date comes and goes

- Axl begins to realize that the manager is against him

- Chinese Democracy is put on hold

That was in 2006. Merck was fired by the end of November or December of 2006, when he made this "x remaining tuesdays" comment. The album got several additional recordings from July 2006 to March 2007 with Bumblefoot and Frank Ferrer. I dunno, maybe the other members did some recording too.

There were previous mixing from Andy Wallace in 2006. Those were the "demos" we got in that Antiquiet site, the album that was supposed to be out by that time without Frank or Bumblefoot. Maybe there were other songs mixed by Wallace, I believe Sorry, This I Love and Scraped had additional vocals/instrumental recorded by that time too.

2008

- Axl is mixing the album a bit more, changing some songs (perhaps the end of Street of Dreams? having Ron and the new band members record parts)

- Axl bought various paintings from Shi Lifeng, and intended to use some as the cover art.

- The manager or record company comes to Axl and says they can't wait any longer and his intentions are ignored.

- Being forced, Axl rushes out an album but it still isn't finished, as the mixes he happened to be working on weren't completed.

- Pressing begins, Chinese Democracy having a modified bike cover, Best Buy begins preorders.

- TV spots begin. Knowing he can still create the Single Arts he uses the Red Star painting by Shi Lifeng for Chinese Democracy, and other art for Better and Street of Dreams.

- Chinese Democracy released against Axl's will. Fires the manager, does an interview trying to explain that he didn't want the album to be released the way it was.

I don't get why you say the mixing were unfinished. I think he and Caram Constanzo were happy about them, maybe tired of working on all that for so long.

The album wasn't released against his will. I strongly doubt it.

I also believe he bought a lot of the paitings throughout all those years, not only in 2008.

And manager only got fired in 2009, just before the Asian tour began.

[Gagarin]

Indeed, if a vocal track was done in 1999, chances are it wasn't redone in 2002, or 2006.

IRS and TWAT 99 have the same vocals at 2008 (CD).

Chinese 2002 has the same vocals as 2008 (CD)

The Blues/SOD had things added to it - that's for sure. There's a 2002 version* of it, and at least a 2006ish version, and then the version with "what I tell ya!" in the outro on 2008 (CD).

Better actually has the "wrong" lyrics sung in its vocal track. He changed it to "a broken heart provides the spark for my determination" while touring Better and in even the "correct" booklet. He sings "a broken heart, to provide the spark, for my determination".

Added to, or parts swapped out, but not redone.

That's what surprised me the most. I figured very wrongly that with all the 'redirections' he'd have had to re-record vocals.

I do not think Axl's voice "improved 10x" at any period - the issue we usually talk about is what he can do live. Studio singing is something different.

I'm sure he can do pretty much anything he wants to with punch-in-punch-out recording (his voice has changed, everyone's does.)

*see Boston announcement commercial from 2002 - @55...seems at a higher register.

Edited October 14, 2011 by Gagarin

[Voodoochild]

Indeed, if a vocal track was done in 1999, chances are it wasn't redone in 2002, or 2006.

IRS and TWAT 99 have the same vocals at 2008 (CD).

Chinese 2002 has the same vocals as 2008 (CD)

Actually Chinese had an extra layer of higher pitch vocals added in the final mix. We just don't know if it was recorded by 2007 or from an older session.

Riad also had a different ending chorus, replacing the line "No one had wove as well" for "If you had wove so well". Not sure if it was a newer overdub.

The Blues/SOD had things added to it - that's for sure. There's a 2002 version* of it, and at least a 2006ish version, and then the version with "what I tell ya!" in the outro on 2008 (CD).

Also, this 2002 version had a different ending solo, most likely recorded by Richard Fortus.

Better actually has the "wrong" lyrics sung in its vocal track. He changed it to "a broken heart provides the spark for my determination" while touring Better and in even the "correct" booklet. He sings "a broken heart, to provide the spark, for my determination".

Added to, or parts swapped out, but not redone.

That's what surprised me the most. I figured very wrongly that with all the 'redirections' he'd have had to re-record vocals.

It also had a different chorus in the 2006 demo. Sounded silly, but it goes "I know you know I know Better" or something like that.

I do not think Axl's voice "improved 10x" at any period - the issue we usually talk about is what he can do live. Studio singing is something different.

I'm sure he can do pretty much anything he wants to with punch-in-punch-out recording (his voice has changed, everyone's does.)

I don't know, but I'm starting to think that there were some songs where he added some recording back in 2006-ish. If you take some songs like Scraped, If The World and Shacklers, they all had his high pitch vocals in the chorus, but not really in the verses. I believe he may had unfinished lyrics for those songs and then finally recorded it all in 2006-07, when he "found his muse". Thats why those parts sounded with more rasp than the other ones sans Better.

[Chewbacca]

That's pretty much it.

[Gagarin]

Indeed, if a vocal track was done in 1999, chances are it wasn't redone in 2002, or 2006.

IRS and TWAT 99 have the same vocals at 2008 (CD).

Chinese 2002 has the same vocals as 2008 (CD)

Actually Chinese had an extra layer of higher pitch vocals added in the final mix. We just don't know if it was recorded by 2007 or from an older session.

Riad also had a different ending chorus, replacing the line "No one had wove as well" for "If you had wove so well". Not sure if it was a newer overdub.

The Blues/SOD had things added to it - that's for sure. There's a 2002 version* of it, and at least a 2006ish version, and then the version with "what I tell ya!" in the outro on 2008 (CD).

Also, this 2002 version had a different ending solo, most likely recorded by Richard Fortus.

Better actually has the "wrong" lyrics sung in its vocal track. He changed it to "a broken heart provides the spark for my determination" while touring Better and in even the "correct" booklet. He sings "a broken heart, to provide the spark, for my determination".

Added to, or parts swapped out, but not redone.

That's what surprised me the most. I figured very wrongly that with all the 'redirections' he'd have had to re-record vocals.

It also had a different chorus in the 2006 demo. Sounded silly, but it goes "I know you know I know Better" or something like that.

I do not think Axl's voice "improved 10x" at any period - the issue we usually talk about is what he can do live. Studio singing is something different.

I'm sure he can do pretty much anything he wants to with punch-in-punch-out recording (his voice has changed, everyone's does.)

I don't know, but I'm starting to think that there were some songs where he added some recording back in 2006-ish. If you take some songs like Scraped, If The World and Shacklers, they all had his high pitch vocals in the chorus, but not really in the verses. I believe he may had unfinished lyrics for those songs and then finally recorded it all in 2006-07, when he "found his muse". Thats why those parts sounded with more rasp than the other ones sans Better.

Ah, yes, you filled in the parts I forgot.

The Better bridge/chorus/thing sounds like a different cut and paste, maybe a new one was dubbed in. I feel like it was recorded both ways. The original "I know you know I know you know I know you know" thing sounds llike that could have been done by just editing...there could have been 3 or 4 different approaches to that part.

With Rhaid, I bet it was recorded both ways at the same time (?)

You hit on something with the "muse" stuff. The older songs had old vocals, the never ones had new vocals. Scraped, If The World, and Shacklers sound like they belong on the same album. IRS sounds like it sat in a vault with TWAT and Catcher. (Just the vocal production). He definitely patched things in, but never wiped the vocals completely. (At least on half the songs we have evidence for).

I was hoping everything would have sounded as fresh as Chinese did vocally (even though the main vocal part was old, the double-singing really changed it). Stupid me for downloading the leaks!

I wish we could have heard all of that Bucket solo/playing on The Blues...

Edited October 15, 2011 by Gagarin

[Let And Let Live]

I never knew there was a 2002 version of the blues knocking around. Has anyone got it?

[Dean]

I liked the "I know you know you know betta!", thought it was pretty awesome!

how do you know if those dates for the leaks are correct? I always thought a 2002 version of the Blues would have had the Pitman effects/

[Gagarin]

The only 2002 version of the Blues is from the Boston promo/announcement/commercial. It's a clip and there's an announcer talking over it. BUT it's during the ending cries/screams.

[Powerage5]

I never knew there was a 2002 version of the blues knocking around. Has anyone got it?

There's just a couple seconds of it in the Boston TV promo from '02. As well as CD (Where it's very clear the low vocals are identical to the final version), and I believe Maddy as well.

Something else not mentioned (Or maybe I'm just going crazy), but didn't the vocals on Madagascar get completely re-worked from the original leak we have?

[WhazUp]

IRS is pretty copy/pasted too. The 1999 leak has a different final solo, the 2006 demo has the Bucket solo, and the 2007 demo and the album version has the 1999 solo in the middle of the song and the 2006 demo solo as the final solo - meaning there was initially 1 solo but they copied the old solo and pasted it in the most recent versions of the song so there are 2 solos

[Voodoochild]

I wish we could have heard all of that Bucket solo/playing on The Blues...

If you meant the ending in the 2002 Boston Promo, I highly doubt it was Bucket. More likely Richard.

I never knew there was a 2002 version of the blues knocking around. Has anyone got it?

There's just a couple seconds of it in the Boston TV promo from '02. As well as CD (Where it's very clear the low vocals are identical to the final version), and I believe Maddy as well.Something else not mentioned (Or maybe I'm just going crazy), but didn't the vocals on Madagascar get completely re-worked from the original leak we have?

Yeah, Madagascar was also on that Promo. Here it is:

About Madagascar, as far as I know it's the same vocals from the original leak. Only some of the backing vocals with the lower register are a bit louder in the mix.

IRS is pretty copy/pasted too. The 1999 leak has a different final solo, the 2006 demo has the Bucket solo, and the 2007 demo and the album version has the 1999 solo in the middle of the song and the 2006 demo solo as the final solo - meaning there was initially 1 solo but they copied the old solo and pasted it in the most recent versions of the song so there are 2 solos

Yeah, and it had a different intro, with a kind of spanish sound in a clean guitar tone, replaced by Robin's more straight foward notes. The very ending of the original intro remained, tho.

[Gagarin]

The Maddy from 2002 had the "I won't be told anymore" from right after the quote collage, and that was all low and soulful...

But he sang the rest of it with some low raspy rough grumble, so I thought that wow, they were re-recorded, but no - the "I won't be told anymore" is the same. He switched styles in the song.

Merk (I believe) did say something about Maddy being "such a rough cut" when it was leaked, but it turns out that wasn't true!

I think there's also some differences with the sound effects and an additional chorus sound (from the band?) in the Skwerl leaks vs. the MSL leaks of The Blues.

[Voodoochild]

I believe Merck had no clue about a lot of things. Also, he was always trying to deny anything. If anything, he only helped Axl to get attention in the press before the NA Tour in 2006 and build up the hype for a release that year.

I would LOVE to listen to the 2002 cuts of Madagascar and The Blues. The first had a really awesome guitar work during Bucket solo by Robin. The Blues had an awesome rhythm guitar from Tobias/Fortus back then and that Pitman synth was way better than the orchestra added in 2006/ending version.

[Powerage5]

I wish we could have heard all of that Bucket solo/playing on The Blues...

If you meant the ending in the 2002 Boston Promo, I highly doubt it was Bucket. More likely Richard.

I never knew there was a 2002 version of the blues knocking around. Has anyone got it?

There's just a couple seconds of it in the Boston TV promo from '02. As well as CD (Where it's very clear the low vocals are identical to the final version), and I believe Maddy as well.Something else not mentioned (Or maybe I'm just going crazy), but didn't the vocals on Madagascar get completely re-worked from the original leak we have?

Yeah, Madagascar was also on that Promo. Here it is:

About Madagascar, as far as I know it's the same vocals from the original leak. Only some of the backing vocals with the lower register are a bit louder in the mix.

IRS is pretty copy/pasted too. The 1999 leak has a different final solo, the 2006 demo has the Bucket solo, and the 2007 demo and the album version has the 1999 solo in the middle of the song and the 2006 demo solo as the final solo - meaning there was initially 1 solo but they copied the old solo and pasted it in the most recent versions of the song so there are 2 solos

Yeah, and it had a different intro, with a kind of spanish sound in a clean guitar tone, replaced by Robin's more straight foward notes. The very ending of the original intro remained, tho.

I'm not convinced they're the same vocals. For one, the vocals on the demos are pretty smooth, whereas the vocals on the album are fairly raspy. On the long, sustained pitches over the bridge, there's a lot of wide vibrato on the demo, while they're sung without vibrato on the album (The album version also has one more long "I..." than the demo). The very first line of the song is sung differently (Though I'll admit, the timing easily could have been shifted in ProTools.). There's a few more pickup words before phrases on the album than on the demo as well.

I just did a quick overlap of the 2007 leak and the album version in Audacity, and I really do hear enough difference to believe the vocals were redone. On all of the other tracks that leaked, it was very apparent that the vocals on the demos, dating as far back as 1999, were used on the final album. This doesn't hold true on Madagascar IMO.

[Voodoochild]

Well, I need to listen to the demo again then. I honestly don't remember it very well.. Hope someone put it on youtube and UMG didn't sack it up.

So, you're talking about the 2007 leak, not the 2008 from Antiquiet, right? Or are they the same in the vocals matter?

[bigcountry]

I have always believed that the album was meant to come out in late 2002 to early 2003..

The basic song structures where in place as far as what we had heard up to that point.

It has also been noted that the record company rejected CD a couple of times. There where rumors of Axl taking getting some of the newly recorded stuff and running over it in his sports car, which could have been out of frustration with the record company. I think he finaly just said FUCK YOU to the record company and just started running the tab up on CD because they rejected a few times.

Then to add fuel to the fire Azloft was hired by the record company. As we all know he is well known for getting bands back together. Izzy at some shows in 2006 makes me believe that managment sent him in to talk to Axl and try at get Guns back together. I beleive back in the day Izzy was about the only person that could talk Axl down due to there friendship going back so far and management and the record company knew this.

That didn't work

Axl is even more pissed at management and the record company and says fuck it here it is you keep telling me it ain't good enough but this is all your getting from me.

So he didn't promote it just as the record company failed to do so.

They gave each other a fucking over on the whole thing.

I know this sounds like a pro Axl statement but if was fucked up by all parties included and they are all at fault.

If you where running the record company you would know just as I would the a new album by the Orginal band would be a better option than CD given the backlash from the more casual fans and even some hardcore fans. Hell even Axl knew this but that is not what he wanted and at the end of the day it is his choice right or wrong. I am sure the record company said if the old band gets back together we will pay you crazy money to do it. Axl has a pure hatred for Slash and didn't work with a person he hates.

So to me for Axl it wasn't JUST about the money he done what he wanted and still has money with out SELLING OUT!

[Voodoochild]

I'm not convinced they're the same vocals. For one, the vocals on the demos are pretty smooth, whereas the vocals on the album are fairly raspy. On the long, sustained pitches over the bridge, there's a lot of wide vibrato on the demo, while they're sung without vibrato on the album (The album version also has one more long "I..." than the demo). The very first line of the song is sung differently (Though I'll admit, the timing easily could have been shifted in ProTools.). There's a few more pickup words before phrases on the album than on the demo as well.

I just did a quick overlap of the 2007 leak and the album version in Audacity, and I really do hear enough difference to believe the vocals were redone. On all of the other tracks that leaked, it was very apparent that the vocals on the demos, dating as far back as 1999, were used on the final album. This doesn't hold true on Madagascar IMO.

Ok, used this one for comparison:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHdlrYml_og

From what I heard, this demo (likely from 2008) and the final version are the same.

From your description, Id say you may mistake a soundboard version from 2002 (or one of those infamous remixes with 2 live soundboard versions mixed togheter and cleaned up). Maybe I'm wrong, no offense, I just would like to know more about this old demo.

I have always believed that the album was meant to come out in late 2002 to early 2003..

The basic song structures where in place as far as what we had heard up to that point.

Yes, but I don't believe some songs like Scraped, Better and Shacklers existed.

It has also been noted that the record company rejected CD a couple of times. There where rumors of Axl taking getting some of the newly recorded stuff and running over it in his sports car, which could have been out of frustration with the record company. I think he finaly just said FUCK YOU to the record company and just started running the tab up on CD because they rejected a few times.

Wrong. From what that NY Times article (which was half bullshit), the record company sent Axl some CDs for him to take inspiration or something. He then got mad and run over them on his car.

Then to add fuel to the fire Azloft was hired by the record company. As we all know he is well known for getting bands back together. Izzy at some shows in 2006 makes me believe that managment sent him in to talk to Axl and try at get Guns back together. I beleive back in the day Izzy was about the only person that could talk Axl down due to there friendship going back so far and management and the record company knew this.

But Azoff was brought only in 2007-08.

I believe Merck's strategy in 2006 was to bring the band more credibility by bringing back Izzy as a guest and getting Bach close to Axl again. Maybe even the band's look (including Axl and Robin).

[Powerage5]

I'm not convinced they're the same vocals. For one, the vocals on the demos are pretty smooth, whereas the vocals on the album are fairly raspy. On the long, sustained pitches over the bridge, there's a lot of wide vibrato on the demo, while they're sung without vibrato on the album (The album version also has one more long "I..." than the demo). The very first line of the song is sung differently (Though I'll admit, the timing easily could have been shifted in ProTools.). There's a few more pickup words before phrases on the album than on the demo as well.

I just did a quick overlap of the 2007 leak and the album version in Audacity, and I really do hear enough difference to believe the vocals were redone. On all of the other tracks that leaked, it was very apparent that the vocals on the demos, dating as far back as 1999, were used on the final album. This doesn't hold true on Madagascar IMO.

Ok, used this one for comparison:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHdlrYml_og

From what I heard, this demo (likely from 2008) and the final version are the same.

From your description, Id say you may mistake a soundboard version from 2002 (or one of those infamous remixes with 2 live soundboard versions mixed togheter and cleaned up). Maybe I'm wrong, no offense, I just would like to know more about this old demo.

I have always believed that the album was meant to come out in late 2002 to early 2003..

The basic song structures where in place as far as what we had heard up to that point.

Yes, but I don't believe some songs like Scraped, Better and Shacklers existed.

It has also been noted that the record company rejected CD a couple of times. There where rumors of Axl taking getting some of the newly recorded stuff and running over it in his sports car, which could have been out of frustration with the record company. I think he finaly just said FUCK YOU to the record company and just started running the tab up on CD because they rejected a few times.

Wrong. From what that NY Times article (which was half bullshit), the record company sent Axl some CDs for him to take inspiration or something. He then got mad and run over them on his car.

Then to add fuel to the fire Azloft was hired by the record company. As we all know he is well known for getting bands back together. Izzy at some shows in 2006 makes me believe that managment sent him in to talk to Axl and try at get Guns back together. I beleive back in the day Izzy was about the only person that could talk Axl down due to there friendship going back so far and management and the record company knew this.

But Azoff was brought only in 2007-08.

I believe Merck's strategy in 2006 was to bring the band more credibility by bringing back Izzy as a guest and getting Bach close to Axl again. Maybe even the band's look (including Axl and Robin).

Definitely not the remix of '02 soundboards, it's the demo that leaked March 30th, 2007 (I believe that was the date). I've got those live remixes also, and it's not the same. The '07 leak is comparable in quality to the '06 leaks.