Guitar backing guitar track in live Chinese Democracy intro?

[SeBaZ]

Is Dj using a backing track?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-3ePHX3ltk

At 0:35, intro sounds perfect, but a low guitar sounds out of tempo.....

Ok, Dj is a great guitarist, but every live intro of Chinese Democracy sounds so perfect.... SO perfect, very artificial to me.

Edited January 2, 2012 by SeBaZ

[James Bond]

I see what you're talking about. Listen through headphones to get the right idea. Obviously up to 0:35 is just the intro being played from the album, then DJ takes over. In the right headphone you'll hear DJ's actual playing, whereas in the left you hear part of the guitar track and sound effects from the intro of the studio version. I'm pretty sure what's in the left ear isn't as high in the mix at the actual shows as it is here, perhaps why it was never brought up before. Same with how the backing vocals were quite high in the iClips mix for the LA show (haven't watched this one in full yet).

[Young_Gun]

Hmmm interesting. Finck used to perform it without a backing track as he did fuck it up a few times. This however is iffy, as it is out of tempo throughout the whole intro. Could have been the reverb and delay settings on the rack/pedal setup of DJ's guitar. Not making excuses as they have used backing tracks before for Axl's low vocals on the song, but the tempo is out for the whole intro. DJ could easily just time his playing better after noticing this but doesn't. So I'm thinking it's the reverb/delay settings on his rig.

Either way, I think they should drop the use of backing tracks altogether. The bandmembers are more than capable of providing the backing vocals. Also the mixing has been very questionable... Probably not noticeable when actually at the show though.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Young_Gun

[henfjel]

Hmmm interesting. Finck used to perform it without a backing track as he did fuck it up a few times. This however is iffy, as it is out of tempo throughout the whole intro. Could have been the reverb and delay settings on the rack/pedal setup of DJ's guitar. Not making excuses as they have used backing tracks before for Axl's low vocals on the song, but the tempo is out for the whole intro. DJ could easily just time his playing better after noticing this but doesn't. So I'm thinking it's the reverb/delay settings on his rig.

i'm with you on the delay/reverb thing. sounds much more like that than a backingtrack

[drtydane]

Impumped its on youtube now. Iclip wouldn't work on my ps3 and I don't have an hdmi output on my computer so I couldn't watch it on my television. Btw I love the back vocals during the outro verse for chinese democracy. "It don't really mattah" can usually only hear the "don't" syllable... backing vocals on wttj and rocket queen... not so cool..

Edited January 2, 2012 by drtydane

[SeBaZ]

Hmmm interesting. Finck used to perform it without a backing track as he did fuck it up a few times. This however is iffy, as it is out of tempo throughout the whole intro. Could have been the reverb and delay settings on the rack/pedal setup of DJ's guitar. Not making excuses as they have used backing tracks before for Axl's low vocals on the song, but the tempo is out for the whole intro. DJ could easily just time his playing better after noticing this but doesn't. So I'm thinking it's the reverb/delay settings on his rig.

i'm with you on the delay/reverb thing. sounds much more like that than a backingtrack

at the end of the "first loop" (0.33) , the wet signal from delay/reverb is audible, and its at tempo...but in the second/third/fourth loop its out of tempo. This cant be delay or reverb...on every loop should sound at tempo or out of tempo, not in only one.

Edited January 2, 2012 by SeBaZ

[Young_Gun]

Hmmm interesting. Finck used to perform it without a backing track as he did fuck it up a few times. This however is iffy, as it is out of tempo throughout the whole intro. Could have been the reverb and delay settings on the rack/pedal setup of DJ's guitar. Not making excuses as they have used backing tracks before for Axl's low vocals on the song, but the tempo is out for the whole intro. DJ could easily just time his playing better after noticing this but doesn't. So I'm thinking it's the reverb/delay settings on his rig.

i'm with you on the delay/reverb thing. sounds much more like that than a backingtrack

It just sounds wayyy perfectly timed the whole way through. As a guitarist myself, I am familiar with how those effects work. If DJ was off of the backing track it would not be as consistent as it is shown ie 300 milliseconds off the whole way through the intro for example. Most of you guys know I wouldn't make up shit just to defend the band, I truly think it's a programming issue this time around. I do know the band does use backing tracks for backing vocals and some background synth/soundscapes though.

[Young_Gun]

Hmmm interesting. Finck used to perform it without a backing track as he did fuck it up a few times. This however is iffy, as it is out of tempo throughout the whole intro. Could have been the reverb and delay settings on the rack/pedal setup of DJ's guitar. Not making excuses as they have used backing tracks before for Axl's low vocals on the song, but the tempo is out for the whole intro. DJ could easily just time his playing better after noticing this but doesn't. So I'm thinking it's the reverb/delay settings on his rig.

i'm with you on the delay/reverb thing. sounds much more like that than a backingtrack

at the end of the "first loop" (0.33) , the wet signal from delay/reverb is audible, and its at tempo...but in the second/third/fourth loop its out of tempo. This cant be delay or reverb...on every loop should sound at tempo or out of tempo, not in only one.

Complex racks and digital reverb and delay pedals can be programmed so the first delay occurs at X milliseconds and the second/third/eighth occurs whenever. You can even program how strong/weak the delay gets for each decaying delay. Same goes for reverb.

EDIT: Actually you do have a point there, the first section is fairly spot on, the subsequent sections sound "doubled" and ill-timed....

Edited January 2, 2012 by Young_Gun

[Powerage5]

Hmmm interesting. Finck used to perform it without a backing track as he did fuck it up a few times. This however is iffy, as it is out of tempo throughout the whole intro. Could have been the reverb and delay settings on the rack/pedal setup of DJ's guitar. Not making excuses as they have used backing tracks before for Axl's low vocals on the song, but the tempo is out for the whole intro. DJ could easily just time his playing better after noticing this but doesn't. So I'm thinking it's the reverb/delay settings on his rig.

Either way, I think they should drop the use of backing tracks altogether. The bandmembers are more than capable of providing the backing vocals. Also the mixing has been very questionable... Probably not noticeable when actually at the show though.

There's certain parts for which I think it's acceptable to use backing tracks. Obviously, the Scraped intro it's necessary for. On top of that, I think it's okay for any time Axl has dual layers of vocals. Then there's certain musical elements where I don't mind (i.e. Chinese intro, TWAT intro/outro)

[Young_Gun]

Hmmm interesting. Finck used to perform it without a backing track as he did fuck it up a few times. This however is iffy, as it is out of tempo throughout the whole intro. Could have been the reverb and delay settings on the rack/pedal setup of DJ's guitar. Not making excuses as they have used backing tracks before for Axl's low vocals on the song, but the tempo is out for the whole intro. DJ could easily just time his playing better after noticing this but doesn't. So I'm thinking it's the reverb/delay settings on his rig.

Either way, I think they should drop the use of backing tracks altogether. The bandmembers are more than capable of providing the backing vocals. Also the mixing has been very questionable... Probably not noticeable when actually at the show though.

There's certain parts for which I think it's acceptable to use backing tracks. Obviously, the Scraped intro it's necessary for. On top of that, I think it's okay for any time Axl has dual layers of vocals. Then there's certain musical elements where I don't mind (i.e. Chinese intro, TWAT intro/outro)

Hmmmm the choir parts on the TWAT intro can easily be done by Pitman's digital synths. Chinese intro I can understand as well as Scraped. But backing tracks during the actual songs aren't cool. There was a video where Axl stops Chinese Democracy cause someone throws a bottle at him and you can hear the backing track afterwards...

[Sweersa]

There was a video where Axl stops Chinese Democracy cause someone throws a bottle at him and you can hear the backing track afterwards...

I remember that, pretty funny. I'm sure whoever was in charge of the backing track freaked out and was quick to turn it off.

[Powerage5]

Hmmm interesting. Finck used to perform it without a backing track as he did fuck it up a few times. This however is iffy, as it is out of tempo throughout the whole intro. Could have been the reverb and delay settings on the rack/pedal setup of DJ's guitar. Not making excuses as they have used backing tracks before for Axl's low vocals on the song, but the tempo is out for the whole intro. DJ could easily just time his playing better after noticing this but doesn't. So I'm thinking it's the reverb/delay settings on his rig.

Either way, I think they should drop the use of backing tracks altogether. The bandmembers are more than capable of providing the backing vocals. Also the mixing has been very questionable... Probably not noticeable when actually at the show though.

There's certain parts for which I think it's acceptable to use backing tracks. Obviously, the Scraped intro it's necessary for. On top of that, I think it's okay for any time Axl has dual layers of vocals. Then there's certain musical elements where I don't mind (i.e. Chinese intro, TWAT intro/outro)

Hmmmm the choir parts on the TWAT intro can easily be done by Pitman's digital synths. Chinese intro I can understand as well as Scraped. But backing tracks during the actual songs aren't cool. There was a video where Axl stops Chinese Democracy cause someone throws a bottle at him and you can hear the backing track afterwards...

With TWAT you've got the sound effects on top of the choir part, and it's a hell of a lot easier to cue up the entire intro than to cue up the effects on top of Pitman playign the choir part live.

They're definitely using backing tracks on vocals less this year than last year, but to be honest, after hearing Tommy's vocals high in the mix on CD, I think I'd rather have a backing track for the second vocal part...

Bumble's vocals on Shackler's can stay though, I never realized he's got such a cool voice!

[Young_Gun]

Hmmm interesting. Finck used to perform it without a backing track as he did fuck it up a few times. This however is iffy, as it is out of tempo throughout the whole intro. Could have been the reverb and delay settings on the rack/pedal setup of DJ's guitar. Not making excuses as they have used backing tracks before for Axl's low vocals on the song, but the tempo is out for the whole intro. DJ could easily just time his playing better after noticing this but doesn't. So I'm thinking it's the reverb/delay settings on his rig.

Either way, I think they should drop the use of backing tracks altogether. The bandmembers are more than capable of providing the backing vocals. Also the mixing has been very questionable... Probably not noticeable when actually at the show though.

There's certain parts for which I think it's acceptable to use backing tracks. Obviously, the Scraped intro it's necessary for. On top of that, I think it's okay for any time Axl has dual layers of vocals. Then there's certain musical elements where I don't mind (i.e. Chinese intro, TWAT intro/outro)

Hmmmm the choir parts on the TWAT intro can easily be done by Pitman's digital synths. Chinese intro I can understand as well as Scraped. But backing tracks during the actual songs aren't cool. There was a video where Axl stops Chinese Democracy cause someone throws a bottle at him and you can hear the backing track afterwards...

With TWAT you've got the sound effects on top of the choir part, and it's a hell of a lot easier to cue up the entire intro than to cue up the effects on top of Pitman playign the choir part live.

They're definitely using backing tracks on vocals less this year than last year, but to be honest, after hearing Tommy's vocals high in the mix on CD, I think I'd rather have a backing track for the second vocal part...

Bumble's vocals on Shackler's can stay though, I never realized he's got such a cool voice!

So Dizzy can't play the simple R2D2(not knocking it) effects over Pitman playing the choir parts? Or vice versa?

Edited January 2, 2012 by Young_Gun

[James Bond]

Bumble's vocals on Shackler's can stay though, I never realized he's got such a cool voice!

You've got that right! Bumble has a hell of a voice. The first time I heard some of his solo stuff with vocals I didn't even realize it was him singing. I don't really know why but for whatever reason I didn't expect him to have such a good voice. I've been listening to the LA version of Shackler's steady lately because of how cool his vocals sound especially being so loud in the mix. The song sounds way better without the backing tracks too - more raw and authentic, and the fact that Axl nails it makes it even better.

[SeBaZ]

Hmmm interesting. Finck used to perform it without a backing track as he did fuck it up a few times. This however is iffy, as it is out of tempo throughout the whole intro. Could have been the reverb and delay settings on the rack/pedal setup of DJ's guitar. Not making excuses as they have used backing tracks before for Axl's low vocals on the song, but the tempo is out for the whole intro. DJ could easily just time his playing better after noticing this but doesn't. So I'm thinking it's the reverb/delay settings on his rig.

i'm with you on the delay/reverb thing. sounds much more like that than a backingtrack

at the end of the "first loop" (0.33) , the wet signal from delay/reverb is audible, and its at tempo...but in the second/third/fourth loop its out of tempo. This cant be delay or reverb...on every loop should sound at tempo or out of tempo, not in only one.

Complex racks and digital reverb and delay pedals can be programmed so the first delay occurs at X milliseconds and the second/third/eighth occurs whenever. You can even program how strong/weak the delay gets for each decaying delay. Same goes for reverb.

EDIT: Actually you do have a point there, the first section is fairly spot on, the subsequent sections sound "doubled" and ill-timed....

maybe... the "backing guitar track" is dj ashba, and what we think is ashba is the real "backing/front guitar track" .... this could explain why the first section is on time and the others out of time...

[Young_Gun]

Hmmm interesting. Finck used to perform it without a backing track as he did fuck it up a few times. This however is iffy, as it is out of tempo throughout the whole intro. Could have been the reverb and delay settings on the rack/pedal setup of DJ's guitar. Not making excuses as they have used backing tracks before for Axl's low vocals on the song, but the tempo is out for the whole intro. DJ could easily just time his playing better after noticing this but doesn't. So I'm thinking it's the reverb/delay settings on his rig.

i'm with you on the delay/reverb thing. sounds much more like that than a backingtrack

at the end of the "first loop" (0.33) , the wet signal from delay/reverb is audible, and its at tempo...but in the second/third/fourth loop its out of tempo. This cant be delay or reverb...on every loop should sound at tempo or out of tempo, not in only one.

Complex racks and digital reverb and delay pedals can be programmed so the first delay occurs at X milliseconds and the second/third/eighth occurs whenever. You can even program how strong/weak the delay gets for each decaying delay. Same goes for reverb.

EDIT: Actually you do have a point there, the first section is fairly spot on, the subsequent sections sound "doubled" and ill-timed....

maybe... the "backing guitar track" is dj ashba, and what we think is ashba is the real "backing/front guitar track" .... this could explain why the first section is on time and the others out of time...

Possible, but I do think a backing track was being used now.. The 'backing track' sounds softer than the doubled track(which is probably Ashba)... If it's true than it's not cool.

[Young_Gun]

The intro has like millions of guitar parts on top of each other. DJ's playing the main track and I would believe the backing/intro track has all the additional junk.

Evidently not. Also doesn't explain why Finck never played to the backing track as it was just his guitar, fuck ups included.

[SeBaZ]

The intro has like millions of guitar parts on top of each other. DJ's playing the main track and I would believe the backing/intro track has all the additional junk.

Evidently not. Also doesn't explain why Finck never played to the backing track as it was just his guitar, fuck ups included.

How evidently? I listened to it and it sounds like Finck's guitar in the background. It's just how the track is on the album, so that's why they play it. Album wasn't out in 06/07 so that's why Robin had a different, unfinished track.

Every intro by Finck sounds different.... different duration in each loop, slides, fuck ups....

Every intro by Dj sounds the same.... so much perfect, and we know, Ashba is a great guitarist but isnt perfect, the last perfomance of SCOM proof that

[WhazUp]

He definitely plays with a click track timed with the intro, you can hear the metronome on the Tokyo 09 ear monitor mix.

Edited January 2, 2012 by WhazUp

[Young_Gun]

The intro has like millions of guitar parts on top of each other. DJ's playing the main track and I would believe the backing/intro track has all the additional junk.

Evidently not. Also doesn't explain why Finck never played to the backing track as it was just his guitar, fuck ups included.

How evidently? I listened to it and it sounds like Finck's guitar in the background. It's just how the track is on the album, so that's why they play it. Album wasn't out in 06/07 so that's why Robin had a different, unfinished track.

I find the intro to be one of the more simple parts compared to the rest of the album in terms of layering.

And you are telling me there is no way Guns could replicate that part live without a backing track?? Even with 3 skilled guitarist? Even with that massive budget and top of the line rack mounted effects? A simple harmonizer would be able to to replicate those effects live. It is lame to use a backing track on that part.

[Young_Gun]

The intro has like millions of guitar parts on top of each other. DJ's playing the main track and I would believe the backing/intro track has all the additional junk.

Evidently not. Also doesn't explain why Finck never played to the backing track as it was just his guitar, fuck ups included.

How evidently? I listened to it and it sounds like Finck's guitar in the background. It's just how the track is on the album, so that's why they play it. Album wasn't out in 06/07 so that's why Robin had a different, unfinished track.

I find the intro to be one of the more simple parts compared to the rest of the album in terms of layering.

And you are telling me there is no way Guns could replicate that part live without a backing track?? Even with 3 skilled guitarist? Even with that massive budget and top of the line rack mounted effects? A simple harmonizer would be able to to replicate those effects live. It is lame to use a backing track on that part.

Well, I don't know... It's just full of echoing guitars and parts that are really just quick cuts. I don't think it would make sense to play it live. I mean, how do you even play it?

But all those parts(the echoing etc) on the studio version are merely delays, overdrives, reverbs etc. All standard effecs. There might be a harmonizer effect set an octave higher also but that's as complicated as it gets to my ears. It's just simple power chords also.

[bumblecool]

They should keep the shacklers demon voice back track, fucking awesome!

[Kahz]

There's a backing guitar track on Jungle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGUMbFabQUk

Axl asks the band to extend part of the song so he can talk to the crowd, which throws the backing track off.

Listen to 2:50 to 4:00.

[Voodoochild]

Maybe it was Pitman's layer with processed guitar? But I've seen some YouTube video from a recent gig in this US tour where Ashba fuck up the intro big time, so I assume this layer is not as proeminent in the audience mix.

[James Bond]

The intro has like millions of guitar parts on top of each other. DJ's playing the main track and I would believe the backing/intro track has all the additional junk.

Evidently not. Also doesn't explain why Finck never played to the backing track as it was just his guitar, fuck ups included.

How evidently? I listened to it and it sounds like Finck's guitar in the background. It's just how the track is on the album, so that's why they play it. Album wasn't out in 06/07 so that's why Robin had a different, unfinished track.

I find the intro to be one of the more simple parts compared to the rest of the album in terms of layering.

And you are telling me there is no way Guns could replicate that part live without a backing track?? Even with 3 skilled guitarist? Even with that massive budget and top of the line rack mounted effects? A simple harmonizer would be able to to replicate those effects live. It is lame to use a backing track on that part.

Well, I don't know... It's just full of echoing guitars and parts that are really just quick cuts. I don't think it would make sense to play it live. I mean, how do you even play it?

It's very simple to play. Just power chords with an octave effect as well as some delay. Very standard guitar effects.

I'm telling everyone, listen to the video in the original post with headphones on. You can tell it's really DJ on the right and the left is clearly the studio track as it is identical. The live mix is much different than the iClips mix, as that part (the backing track) is never as loud as it is here.