Astrology in the GNR camp

[sailaway]

We each have our own roads to follow,my system doesn't work for you and your system won't work for me.

Why wouldn't logics, rationality and sense work for you?

Mainly because I steer my ship by my feelings,convictions,heart and soul over someone else's personal convictions.

So if you felt that the Earth was flat you wouldn't let this conviction be influenced by the large body of other peoples' observations to the contrary as well as the numerous evidence from science that says otherwise? Just like when you feel that reincarnation must be true then you won't let this conviction of yours be in anyway affected by the complete absence of supporting evidence? That's horrible. With that absurd approach to life there's no end to what you won't be able to fool yourself into believing. Or what you might try to fool others into believing. Scary shit.

I don't feel, I don't have convictions, I rarely let my heart overrule my mind, and I definitely don't have a soul which prevents me from seeing the world like it is. There's no drapes before my eyes. I don't claim to know everything, but what I do claim to know I actually do know and not just believe, because what I know is supported by a sufficient amount of scientific evidence. Never putting trust in anything but to what has been proven to be true, is not a conviction -- it is the only sensible way to live. It is also the same thing you do -- which is why you surely accept that planes fly, that magnets work, that gravity exists, etc, expect that you ALSO decide to add the irrational belief in stuff that is not supported by any evidence at all. Why on earth you do this is hard to say, it could be that you are too ignorant to understand these things and hence actually believe it is sensible to believe in stupid shit or because you have some psychological reason to not relate to the world as it is but to your own twisted version of the world filled with magical things like reincarnation, unicorns, souls and angels. It is sad really, because the world is amazing and beautiful enough without the need to go around and believing in fairies, souls, gods, ghosts and whatnot.

Those are your opinions,I happen to believe a bit differently and although your beliefs may serve you well,I prefer to stick with mine. I'm far from ignorant,as you so tactlessly suggested,and have found truth in many different places.

Another amazing thing about the world is in America we are free to believe what we choose to,Free Will is not only a great Rush song,but a great concept.

It is not only my opinion that evidence is crucial to knowledge, it is a notion shared by most human beings, especially the intelligent ones. This understanding is the starting point for the amazing collective project of humankind: to methodically and carefully dissect, analyse, study and understand the world that surrounds us. Our accumulated knowledge - which again leads to all our amazing technological triumphs - is a direct result of this scientific endeavour, our greatest accomplishment. To refer to this as a mere "belief", like as if our understanding of how to obtain knowledge could be rejected at any time, is just silly. We know that the scientific method is the most reliable way of obtaining knowledge, not only because of reasons of epistemology, but because of the massive amounts of success from this methods compared to the utter failures of utter methods like spiritual divination, soothsaying, dreaming, etc. The fact that you don't understand this actually proves that you are ignorant.

No,what it proves is you are intolerant and try to force your mindset down everybody's throat,hell you are more biased and judgemental than some whacked out right wing Christians I know.

You must be the arithmatic man,you add trouble,subtract pleasure and multiply intolerant ignorance.

Don't know where you live,but I live in a country that allows me to believe as I wish.

I'm actually impressed,seldom see such a small mind in such a big head.

I don't know why stating the obviousness of trusting evidence rather than spiritual revelation is considered by you to be "forcing my mindset", but I guess that is what one must expect from someone so inclined as to believe in just about any silliness ever imagined by man. Accuracy in analysing someone is not exactly a trait I expect from you.

And again I don't know why you revert to the non-issue of religious freedom. As far as I know, no one is interested in limiting your freedom to believe in crap, and neither am I. But an important facet of our culture is that when you claim to believe in crap then people might oppose those beliefs. The ensuing discussion is important, because it helps us to calibrate our views, it helps us to refine our opinions. So when I encounter people who have been brainwashed into believing in things for which absolutely no evidence exist, like Santa Clause, teapots in orbit round stellar objects, unicorns, the soul, gods and elves, then I have usually no qualms of pointing out how irrational that is.

I understand that a defence mechanism from your side would be to try to make this a case of someone attacking your freedom to believe in crap. But it isn't. It is just that you have no arguments for why you should believe in nonsense and hence you attack that particular straw man.

More sadly is your many attacks on me as a person, although that is also quite frequent among people who have lost the argument. The only thing I have said about you is that you believe in irrational things and that you hence are ignorant and/or stupid. I mean, you could define ignorance and stupidity as the propensity for believing in nonsense, so I don't see what your problem is. If you disagree with being called ignorant and /or stupid the you would just have to argue that your beliefs are actually founded on rationality. It's that easy. No need to describe me as having a small mind, wanting to limit your freedom to be ignorant, suggest my life is less filled with joy than yours, that I am biased, judgemental and intolerant - yet, sadly, this

is quite typical knee-jerk reaction from people who feel their ridiculous belief are under threat, it is not like they can defend their beliefs any other way.

I see no reason to need to defend my belief system to you,you don't pay my bills,I am quite sure that we lead completely different lifestyles,and I will continue on in my ecclectic belief system.

It is not your job to go "educate" people concerning their spiritual beliefs,and I honestly cannot understand why you are so over-the-top upset and insistent that "your views are the only correct views"

I took offense to being called ignorant,that was uncalled for,as well as untrue.

Edited September 9, 2012 by sailaway

[SoulMonster]

I see no reason to need to defend my belief system to you,you don't pay my bills,I am quite sure that we lead completely different lifestyles,and I will continue on in my ecclectic belief system.

It is not your job to go "educate" people concerning their spiritual beliefs,and I honestly cannot understand why you are so over-the-top upset and insistent that "your views are the only correct views"

I took offense to being called ignorant,that was uncalled for,as well as untrue.

Can you defend a belief system that is based on the embrace of a lack of evidence to anyone? It is undefendable. It only exists because there is a sufficient amount of morons in this world and because parents brainwash their kids into adopting their own particular nonsense. It is yet anotherthat will soon find itself on the garbage dump of human belief systems. Dead belief walking.

It's not my job to discuss things with anyone, I do it for free. Humans discussing things is instrumental to progress. But I can see why you don't want progress.

You have no right to be offended for being called ignorant when you have just stated that you believe in nonsense. Just go ahead and argue for why your beliefs aren't an affront to all we actually know about our world and you will prove that you aren't ignorant and prove that I am a moron, but the more you continue to not do just that the more ignorant you appear. It is your choice entirely.

[Nick83]

Wow Soul monster, you seem like a real maniac. Maybe you should lay off the adderall.

[izzydoezit]

threads like this prove the patheticness of the current state of this band...

[SoulMonster]

Wow Soul monster, you seem like a real maniac. Maybe you should lay off the adderall.

What makes you think I have ADHD? I don't, btw.

[sailaway]

I see no reason to need to defend my belief system to you,you don't pay my bills,I am quite sure that we lead completely different lifestyles,and I will continue on in my ecclectic belief system.

It is not your job to go "educate" people concerning their spiritual beliefs,and I honestly cannot understand why you are so over-the-top upset and insistent that "your views are the only correct views"

I took offense to being called ignorant,that was uncalled for,as well as untrue.

Can you defend a belief system that is based on the embrace of a lack of evidence to anyone? It is undefendable. It only exists because there is a sufficient amount of morons in this world and because parents brainwash their kids into adopting their own particular nonsense. It is yet anotherthat will soon find itself on the garbage dump of human belief systems. Dead belief walking.

It's not my job to discuss things with anyone, I do it for free. Humans discussing things is instrumental to progress. But I can see why you don't want progress.

You have no right to be offended for being called ignorant when you have just stated that you believe in nonsense. Just go ahead and argue for why your beliefs aren't an affront to all we actually know about our world and you will prove that you aren't ignorant and prove that I am a moron, but the more you continue to not do just that the more ignorant you appear. It is your choice entirely.

There are hundreds of millions of people that don't share your belief system,so what makes you so sure you are right? Answer is you don't know,and can't prove it.

Logic is nice,but it doesn't explain everything,I have spoken with people that had NDE's and you may think it is merely electrical activity in the brain,but you won't convince them.

Why are you so adamant in disproving things that you don't believe in?

I do believe in a supreme being of some kind,some species maybe-I don't believe the Bible word for word,but I do believe in forces of good and evil,positive and negative

and I am intuitive enough to pick up on the mood in a room,or sometimes whether someone is being nice to me for a reason,an agenda.

Nobody can explain why some people are naturally gifted with writing,or playing an instrument,look at child prodigies.

I don't think reincarnation can be disproven,nor astral travel,synchronicity,e.s.p. -etc.

It is said most use only 10% of their mind,what would be the result of someone able to actively,and intentionally use more?

You don't know.

There is a condition in children called "Alice/wonderland/looking glass syndrome, it causes them to see things bigger or substantially smaller than they are.When they did MRI's on these kids,they found that unusual,extra parts of the brain were being used.

Humans/Science does not know/has not discovered everything in existance,they don't have all the answers.

It just isn't that simple.

Why does it bother you so that someone might just have a different belief system than yours? Surely you are aware of different belief systems throughout the world,in various Socio-economic societies?

A closed.mind is a terrible thing to have.

threads like this prove the patheticness of the current state of this band...

No,actually it doesn't. The vegas dates are down,the benefit is on,I don't see anything pathetic except people like you who use any excuse to bash the band.

Wow Soul monster, you seem like a real maniac. Maybe you should lay off the adderall.

Ha! Guy is like a rabid apostle,determined to "convert" everyone,won't work

[maynard]

i knew for a long time sailaway is a person who shouldn't be even using a computer. thanks for the great posts, soul monster, i don't always agree with you, but you were great on this thread.

@topic: astrolgy is bullshit. axl has always showed signs of being an ignorant person. so i'm not surprised if he believes in this kind of bulshit.

[SoulMonster]

There are hundreds of millions of people that don't share your belief system,so what makes you so sure you are right? Answer is you don't know,and can't prove it.

Logic is nice,but it doesn't explain everything,I have spoken with people that had NDE's and you may think it is merely electrical activity in the brain,but you won't convince them.

Why are you so adamant in disproving things that you don't believe in?

I do believe in a supreme being of some kind,some species maybe-I don't believe the Bible word for word,but I do believe in forces of good and evil,positive and negative

and I am intuitive enough to pick up on the mood in a room,or sometimes whether someone is being nice to me for a reason,an agenda.

Nobody can explain why some people are naturally gifted with writing,or playing an instrument,look at child prodigies.

I don't think reincarnation can be disproven,nor astral travel,synchronicity,e.s.p. -etc.

It is said most use only 10% of their mind,what would be the result of someone able to actively,and intentionally use more?

You don't know.

There is a condition in children called "Alice/wonderland/looking glass syndrome, it causes them to see things bigger or substantially smaller than they are.When they did MRI's on these kids,they found that unusual,extra parts of the brain were being used.

Humans/Science does not know/has not discovered everything in existance,they don't have all the answers.

It just isn't that simple.

Why does it bother you so that someone might just have a different belief system than yours? Surely you are aware of different belief systems throughout the world,in various Socio-economic societies?

A closed.mind is a terrible thing to have.

You are seriously asking me what makes me confident that the scientific method is the best way to obtain knowledge? Because the track record is indisputable. It is that simple. Science explains how the world works and by applying this knowledge we get technology. Can you name some technological advances or some facts that have been obtained through spiritual revelation? No, you can't. So this isn't really a contest at all. I know I am right, and so do the rest of the world. Even you believe that science is remarkable at figuring out how the world works. It is just that you have decided that this isn't enough, and hence you have inhabited the world with silly things like reincarnation, souls, ghosts, and whatnot, which are purely figments of your imagination and has no root in reality whatsoever. Was this a good enough proof for you that the scientific method is the best method humans have come up with for understanding the world?

You ask why I am so "adamant in disproving things that I don't believe in". I am not. But when someone in 2012 seriously claims that astrology works on a public discussion board, then that is just too ridiculous to let pass. If you had claimed that unicorns exist, or that Santa Clause is real, you would have gotten the exact same response from me. Why shouldn't I disagree with such ludicrous claims? I think the world would be a lot better if humans didn't spend their time being mistaken about the most obvious things. This is not the middle ages. Enlightenment is for everyone. People shouldn't buy homoeopathic crap perhaps even rejecting real medicine, people shouldn't die and kill in the name of whatever god they believe in, people shouldn't spend money on charlatans like astrologers, people shouldn't brainwash their children into the same follies that they are afflicted with, and people shouldn't spend their time on fantasies when there is a whole world out there with real problems that need solving. It's that simple.

You claim that nobody can explain why there is variation in skills among people, and you have earlier made other silly claims about what we can't explain. Fact is you are ignorant. We can explain why some people, are better at some things than other: it's a combination of genetic make-up and how they have been brought up. Did you seriously not know this? Do you know what a Bell curve is? Can you imagine that prodigies lie at the very far left and right on the distribution curve whereas most of us mingle together at the middle?

Then you list lots of things that you say can't be disproven, like reincarnation. Yes, it is very hard to disprove things that don't exist. Can you prove that there are not unicorns flying around planets encircling Alpha Centauri? Nope. But should we then believe there are? Nope. The fact that some things can't be disprove doesn't mean they have to be real. The reason why we can rule out the possibility of reincarnation existing is the complete absence of evidence suggesting a mechanism for how that could happen. It just relies on too many things which we have no reason to believe would exist and it is too contradictory with what we do know about the world. I could come up with an indefinite number of other concepts that are perhaps impossible to falsify but that also have no supporting evidence. They wouldn't be factual. Just like reincarnation. Then we also have sociological explanations for why a concept like reincarnation would have been invented, basically as a comfort blanket for people suffering under the toil of life and for people being exposed to unfairness.

The claim that we only use 10 % of our brain is a myth.

You then claim that science hasn't helped us to answer everything. That is true. Some questions rely on wrong premises and are hence flawed (like "why are we here?") and others have been too hard for humans to figure out, either because they are too complex and we need more time ( (like "are there unicorns orbiting Alpha Centauri?") or because we have no way of finding out (like "what was the name of the first Neaderthal discovered?"). So yes, science doesn't explain everything, but neither have I claimed. The fact that you even present this "argument" suggests you know very little about science. My point is that science is the best method we have to figuring out things about the world we live in.

You end by saying that a closed mind is a terrible thing to have. I am very open-minded within the limits of what can be factual. In fact, I believe my colleagues would say that many of my hypotheses was a bit "out there". So I wouldn't say being closed-minded is a problem for me. Your problem, though, is that you are so open-minded your brain has fallen out.

Edited September 10, 2012 by SoulMonster

[Howard2k]

amazing that some people take that shit seriously.

[Howard2k]

Soul Monster. Thank you. Your post was great.

[sailaway]

@ Soulmonster,I have a good friend in NY that has extensive knowledge of homeopathic medicne,and she has helped me solve several physical issues without the AMA's toxic cocktails.

I tried to be polite,bit that doesn't seem to be having any effect on you or your overbearing,offensive,and insulting demeanor,So I'll try a more direct approach.

Firstly,step off-until you become some sort of dictator of a country,you do not have the right to tell anyone what or how to believe.Fact.

Secondly,I am full aware of what a "Bell curve" is,your condescending attitude is intolerable,unacceptable and the numerous claims that I am somehow inferior,or ignorant because I have differing spiritual beliefs brought unneeded Drama to this section of the Forum,if in the future you feel the need to act like this,please take it to "Attitude"

I have devoted much time to searching for truth in my spiritualiity,there are incompetent Doctors,scientists as well as phony spiritual advisors,astrologists,churches,there are charlatains in every corner of humanity.

It is up to the individual to discern the sincere from the false.

So yes,I have an ecclectic belief system but it is neither.false,nor silly simply because you think so.

On another note you mentioned "unicorns" 3 or 4 times,to be clear I dont believe in Unicorns,flying or otherwise,nor flying teapots,got mixed feelings on UFOs

What precisely is your fascination with Unicorns?

If you choose not to answer,I don't care-I won't be responding to you in this topic again.

Start a topic in another section,more suited to this type of discourse.

Goodnight,pardon the typos I'm out on cell.

http://blogs-images.forbes.com/womensenews/files/2012/05/unicorn-227x300.jpg[/im2g]

Edited September 10, 2012 by sailaway

[SoulMonster]

@ Soulmonster,I have a good friend in NY that has extensive knowledge of homeopathic medicne,and she has helped me solve several physical issues without the AMA's toxic cocktails.

I tried to be polite,bit that doesn't seem to be having any effect on you or your overbearing,offensive,and insulting demeanor,So I'll try a more direct approach.

Firstly,step off-until you become some sort of dictator of a country,you do not have the right to tell anyone what or how to believe.Fact.

Secondly,I am full aware of what a "Bell curve" is,your condescending attitude is intolerable,unacceptable and the numerous claims that I am somehow inferior,or ignorant because I have differing spiritual beliefs brought unneeded Drama to this section of the Forum,if in the future you feel the need to act like this,please take it to "Attitude"

I have devoted much time to searching for truth in my spiritualiity,there are incompetent Doctors,scientists as well as phony spiritual advisors,astrologists,churches,there are charlatains in every corner of humanity.

It is up to the individual to discern the sincere from the false.

So yes,I have an ecclectic belief system but it is neither.false,nor silly simply because you think so.

On another note you mentioned "unicorns" 3 or 4 times,to be clear I dont believe in Unicorns,flying or otherwise,nor flying teapots,got mixed feelings on UFOs

What precisely is your fascination with Unicorns?

If you choose not to answer,I don't care-I won't be responding to you in this topic again.

Start a topic in another section,more suited to this type of discourse.

Goodnight,pardon the typos I'm out on cell.

http://blogs-images.forbes.com/womensenews/files/2012/05/unicorn-227x300.jpg[/im2g]

Your homoeopathic friend might have helped you solve some issues you had, but the homoeopathic medicine itself couldn't have done more than the placebo effect -- a fact that has been demonstrated again and again in double-blind tests. I am also afraid that the treatment you received wasn't completely without harmful side-effects: you are now left believing that potions diluted down to pure water can cause molecular effects in human bodies leading to healing of various specific diseases (aka homoeopathy). I hope you didn't pay much.

And again: why do you keep claiming that I try to tell anyone what to believe? I don't. I tell them that they are ignorant and/or stupid if they believe in nonsense, not that they can't believe in it, because surely and unfortunately, they can. It is purely a descriptive thing. I assume you sometime characterize someone as completely bollocks because of their beliefs without that statement being meant as some form of expression towards whether their beliefs should be illegal or not. Again, just a description of their beliefs. Of course I wish that people didn't believe in silliness but I would never outlaw it. Nonsense must be met with sense not censure.

Yes, your beliefs are both silly and false, but not because I think so but because they aren't founded on any shred of evidence and thus are utterly irrational.

[Nick83]

SoulMonster, you're just ignorant and aggressively hateful of anything that opposes your opinions. It appears that producing large amounts of verbal diarrhea is your only skill. You certainly don't do anything to back up your claims or attempt to have a serious discussion.

You try to present yourself as some kind of science expert, but it's obvious your not. I mean, anyone who's spent time researching has seen that "science" and "studies" are most often not the final answer to anything. First off, there are usually preferences for certain studies, studies can be biased, studies are influenced by money, many studies (unfortunately) are poorly done, and most often, studies produce nothing concrete and only lead to more questions. And we cannot discount the influence of man: no matter how clear things look, men are still conducting these studies, interpreting their data, and fitting it into whatever their agenda is, consciously or unconsciously. Sorry, but that's it.

And the more researched and knowledgeable a person becomes, at least in my experience, there is the realization that we just don't know that much at all. That can be profoundly discouraging for some. Any analytical mind, that has some experience, and is worth anything, will approach everything openly, carefully, full of questions, and without jumping to any sort of extreme conclusions. These minds know that it is foolish to have such concrete conclusions or opinions when everything is constantly changing, and there's the big likelihood of finding out the things firmly believed in are actually wrong.

How old are you SoulMonster? In fact, let's play a game. Give me your date of birth, time of birth, and the location of your birth.

[username]

Astrology is a huge load of bollocks that shouldn't have any place in any rock and roll band.

[SoulMonster]

SoulMonster, you're just ignorant and aggressively hateful of anything that opposes your opinions. It appears that producing large amounts of verbal diarrhea is your only skill. You certainly don't do anything to back up your claims or attempt to have a serious discussion.

I have again and again stated that there are no evidence supporting the notion of astrology, reincarnation, and lots of other nonsense. How exactly do you want me to present this absence of evidence? If your opinion is that I am incorrect, and that there are evidence supporting these ideas, then please present them.

I have also stated that science is the best method available to us for obtaining knowledge of the world we live in. I argue for this by merely looking at all the success stories coming from science and the sad absence of success stories from spiritual revelation, which is the most common alternative to science. Are you seriously going to claim that science doesn't in more or less by walk-over? Please inform us of what alternatives to science we have and what kind of knowledge they have given us which we didn't get from science.

You try to present yourself as some kind of science expert, but it's obvious your not. I mean, anyone who's spent time researching has seen that "science" and "studies" are most often not the final answer to anything. First off, there are usually preferences for certain studies, studies can be biased, studies are influenced by money, many studies (unfortunately) are poorly done, and most often, studies produce nothing concrete and only lead to more questions. And we cannot discount the influence of man: no matter how clear things look, men are still conducting these studies, interpreting their data, and fitting it into whatever their agenda is, consciously or unconsciously. Sorry, but that's it.

Eh, no. Just no. Here's an example: The Earth orbiting the Sun. It's a result from scientific studies. There are literally millions of other examples of pieces of knowledge that has been obtained from application of the scientific method.

And the more researched and knowledgeable a person becomes, at least in my experience, there is the realization that we just don't know that much at all.

Oh, we know a lot. No one would deny that humankind has never known as much about the world surrounding us than we do know in 2012. Each year thousands of new peer-reviewed scientific publications are presented containing new data that builds on our massive amount of knowledge and understanding. We stand on the shoulders of former generations of clever men and women who have devoted their time and minds to science. This fantastic endeavour is the most amazing feature of our species -- it is a collective repository of knowledge handed down from generation to generation. Even people like you, with no potential for adding to this grand project, can enjoy the rewards of it by enjoying the resulting technology -- cars, medicine, computers, planes, materials, food, etc.

That can be profoundly discouraging for some. Any analytical mind, that has some experience, and is worth anything, will approach everything openly, carefully, full of questions, and without jumping to any sort of extreme conclusions. These minds know that it is foolish to have such concrete conclusions or opinions when everything is constantly changing, and there's the big likelihood of finding out the things firmly believed in are actually wrong.

So you are open to the Sun orbiting the Earth?? We are open to things which are within the realm of possibility. Please read that again. Reincarnation and astrology has no supporting evidence and hence we shouldn't be more open to these things than other concepts without supporting evidence, like ghosts, unicorns and the soul.

How old are you SoulMonster? In fact, let's play a game. Give me your date of birth, time of birth, and the location of your birth.

January 9, 1976. Around 11 pm. Farsund, Norway.

[The Black]

And this is the thread where SoulMonster has most definetly shown his true colours.

A man that cannot respect another person with their own beliefs/opinions.

Do I believe in God/astrology and all those kind of things? No I don't. However I can respect another person for doing such a thing if that is what makes them happy.

[ironmt]

And this is the thread where SoulMonster has most definetly shown his true colours.

A man that cannot respect another person with their own beliefs/opinions.

Do I believe in God/astrology and all those kind of things? No I don't. However I can respect another person for doing such a thing if that is what makes them happy.

Sailaway Is no better.

[SoulMonster]

And this is the thread where SoulMonster has most definetly shown his true colours.

A man that cannot respect another person with their own beliefs/opinions.

What has respect go to do with this discussion? Should I out of respect not inform people that the belief in astrology and lots of other things aren't supported by a shred of evidence and that hence it is nonsense? Is it respectful to keep people in the dark?

[The Black]

And this is the thread where SoulMonster has most definetly shown his true colours.

A man that cannot respect another person with their own beliefs/opinions.

What has respect go to do with this discussion? Should I out of respect not inform people that the belief in astrology and lots of other things aren't supported by a shred of evidence and that hence it is nonsense? Is it respectful to keep people in the dark?

People are entitled to their own view of reality. One person's reality can be the opposite of another's.

Science doesn't have to proove anything to fulfill one's happiness.

And by you stating "what has respect got to do with this discussion?" just prooves that that is your way of being. Disrespectful to anybody else with a different point of view, just because you want to force your views on other people instead of politely agreeing to disagree.

Edited September 10, 2012 by The Black

[Nick83]

SoulMonster, you're just ignorant and aggressively hateful of anything that opposes your opinions. It appears that producing large amounts of verbal diarrhea is your only skill. You certainly don't do anything to back up your claims or attempt to have a serious discussion.

I have again and again stated that there are no evidence supporting the notion of astrology, reincarnation, and lots of other nonsense. How exactly do you want me to present this absence of evidence? If your opinion is that I am incorrect, and that there are evidence supporting these ideas, then please present them.

I have also stated that science is the best method available to us for obtaining knowledge of the world we live in. I argue for this by merely looking at all the success stories coming from science and the sad absence of success stories from spiritual revelation, which is the most common alternative to science. Are you seriously going to claim that science doesn't in more or less by walk-over? Please inform us of what alternatives to science we have and what kind of knowledge they have given us which we didn't get from science.

You try to present yourself as some kind of science expert, but it's obvious your not. I mean, anyone who's spent time researching has seen that "science" and "studies" are most often not the final answer to anything. First off, there are usually preferences for certain studies, studies can be biased, studies are influenced by money, many studies (unfortunately) are poorly done, and most often, studies produce nothing concrete and only lead to more questions. And we cannot discount the influence of man: no matter how clear things look, men are still conducting these studies, interpreting their data, and fitting it into whatever their agenda is, consciously or unconsciously. Sorry, but that's it.

Eh, no. Just no. Here's an example: The Earth orbiting the Sun. It's a result from scientific studies. There are literally millions of other examples of pieces of knowledge that has been obtained from application of the scientific method.

And the more researched and knowledgeable a person becomes, at least in my experience, there is the realization that we just don't know that much at all.

Oh, we know a lot. No one would deny that humankind has never known as much about the world surrounding us than we do know in 2012. Each year thousands of new peer-reviewed scientific publications are presented containing new data that builds on our massive amount of knowledge and understanding. We stand on the shoulders of former generations of clever men and women who have devoted their time and minds to science. This fantastic endeavour is the most amazing feature of our species -- it is a collective repository of knowledge handed down from generation to generation. Even people like you, with no potential for adding to this grand project, can enjoy the rewards of it by enjoying the resulting technology -- cars, medicine, computers, planes, materials, food, etc.

That can be profoundly discouraging for some. Any analytical mind, that has some experience, and is worth anything, will approach everything openly, carefully, full of questions, and without jumping to any sort of extreme conclusions. These minds know that it is foolish to have such concrete conclusions or opinions when everything is constantly changing, and there's the big likelihood of finding out the things firmly believed in are actually wrong.

So you are open to the Sun orbiting the Earth?? We are open to things which are within the realm of possibility. Please read that again. Reincarnation and astrology has no supporting evidence and hence we shouldn't be more open to these things than other concepts without supporting evidence, like ghosts, unicorns and the soul.

How old are you SoulMonster? In fact, let's play a game. Give me your date of birth, time of birth, and the location of your birth.

January 9, 1976. Around 11 pm. Farsund, Norway.

First off, it's not my responsibility to go digging to try and prove anything about astrology. If you're going to call astrology bullshit, then you're going to need to provide information, instead of only talking about how it's bullshit because "there are no scientific studies". Personally, I don't have the time or the interest to go digging, but apparently you do, considering the length and frequency of your posts. Since you have such a great effort invested here, instead of your continued verbal diarrhea, you should go digging and try to prove whatever it is you want to prove.

Unless astrology is one of your hobbies or something you have a personal interest in, I doubt you've done much research on it. It certainly appears like you don't have a clue about it, therefore this is just feeling like it's not worth the effort.

[amacfantasy]

it's safe to say that we are in need of leaks huh?

[cooker]

This maybe the one of the most bizarre threads I have ever seen.

[SoulMonster]

People are entitled to their own view of reality. One person's reality can be the opposite of another's.

Science doesn't have to proove anything to fulfill one's happiness.

And by you stating "what has respect got to do with this discussion?" just prooves that that is your way of being. Disrespectful to anybody else with a different point of view, just because you want to force your views on other people instead of politely agreeing to disagree.

I won't let "respect" get in the way of letting people know when their beliefs are completely unfounded. If we didn't voice our disagreement with people with absurd opinions then progress would be halted. We need to confront nonsense, not shy away because we want to be "polite" and "respectful".

You are wrong if you believe I can't respect people with opinions I don't share. Actually, that is a pretty weird thing to say.

Of course people are entitled to their own opinions (why do people always bring this up as if I disagree with this?), but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be met with arguments when they believe nonsense. Telling people they are ignorant and/or stupid because they believe in nonsense doesn't mean I am "forcing my views on other people". It means that I am telling them their beliefs are irrational and that they, by association, must be ignorant and/or stupid.

I don't know what you meant about science and happiness.

First off, it's not my responsibility to go digging to try and prove anything about astrology. If you're going to call astrology bullshit, then you're going to need to provide information, instead of only talking about how it's bullshit because "there are no scientific studies". Personally, I don't have the time or the interest to go digging, but apparently you do, considering the length and frequency of your posts. Since you have such a great effort invested here, instead of your continued verbal diarrhea, you should go digging and try to prove whatever it is you want to prove.

Unless astrology is one of your hobbies or something you have a personal interest in, I doubt you've done much research on it. It certainly appears like you don't have a clue about it, therefore this is just feeling like it's not worth the effort.

When you claim something exists then it is actually your responsibility to defend that position. Surely you understand that if I claim that there are tea pots orbiting Alpha Centauri then the responsibility would lie on me to present evidence for my claim, not on others to support evidence for it not being true. There are two god reasons for this: (1) people shouldn't have to waste time disproving other people's claim, and (2) it is very difficult to prove the negative whereas it is often trivial to prove the positive.

Reality is that there are no evidence supporting astrology. I could present you with the millions of scientific publications that exist that all contain no evidence of astrology, but it would be a lot easier if you would just present us with the much smaller number of publications that you claim support the idea of astrology. Of course you can't. And trust me when I say I have done enough research to know no such evidence exist

But hey, what happened to the game we were playing?

Edited September 10, 2012 by SoulMonster

[Nick83]

Go for it SoulMonster. Post your studies disproving astrology etc. Waiting on you.

The game comes later.

[The Black]

I won't let "respect" get in the way of letting people know when their beliefs are completely unfounded. If we didn't voice our disagreement with people with absurd opinions then progress would be halted. We need to confront nonsense, not shy away because we want to be "polite" and "respectful".

You are wrong if you believe I can't respect people with opinions I don't share. Actually, that is a pretty weird thing to say.

Of course people are entitled to their own opinions (why do people always bring this up as if I disagree with this?), but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be met with arguments when they believe nonsense. Telling people they are ignorant and/or stupid because they believe in nonsense doesn't mean I am "forcing my views on other people". It means that I am telling them their beliefs are irrational and that they, by association, must be ignorant and/or stupid.

I don't know what you meant about science and happiness.

You can't because you won't

There is nothing wrong with people having beliefs if that makes them happy.

You believe that their beliefs are wrong and seem pretty frustrated about them not conforming to your beliefs, even sinking so low as to questions one's intellect by petty namecalling. Keep it up good sir.