What exactly makes CD a "bad album"?

[Eu4ic]

Vocally its amazing. Arguably the best ever.

Guitars are underused. Either let BH be a guitar-god and ride that wave, or never put him in the band.

Not enough catchy parts. Duff would've been useful there. Axl might say it's too easy, but I question whether he can write a real hook anymore.

Too introspective and whiny. Almost all the songs are over 5 minutes, wandering, not in a fulfilling way. Axl tries to be cool, minimalist Nirvana punk rocker and overblown overproduced Rock God at the same time. Sometimes ya cant do both.

Doesnt feel like "a band." AFD was bigger than any individual; something spiritual happened. With such a diverse lineup, the '02 band wouldnt have hit their high point til after CD. It wouldve taken another album or two. Of course that's impossible when Axl Rose is both IN the band and ABOVE the band (Wizard of Oz).

They didnt do it justice live. CD needed that. CD didnt have that. Consequently, I've never heard a version of IRS, for example, that does the album cut justice. Same for Prostitute, TWAT... You need not only Axl in top form to pull those songs off live, but BH on guitar. Neither happened. Rather, Axl decided to play old stuff that makes opera Axl (CD) impossible. Cant be raspy then do album IRS.

I see something special with IRS and CITR. Shackler's Revenge and the opening to Scraped were going somewhere good, imo. Riad's guitar work is fantastic and the song proves minimalist Axl is good Axl. Prostitute is both good AND bad: an appropriate final note to Chinese Democracy.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Eu4ic

[Black Roses]

It's overproduced, that's all!

[Iron MikeyJ]

I think taken on its own terms, its very strong set of songs. But theres a whole lotta rosie there and a lot missing from what people liked about GNR.

Theres no Duff bass intro like on RNDTH, theres no Izzy rock n roll tunes. People really liked Slashs solos. In some cases usually Bucket that doesnt matter. But there are times where they rape those ecpectations.

I think the main thing is the production, Guns fans in general seems to like a more no nonsense production style whether its AcDC, Zepp, AIC or even NIN. A unified sound.

Personally Ive come across this kind of production before with UNKLE or even FNM, Korn.

To me this is what is mind blowing about CD though, the sheer insane scope of it. Its like a huge pointilist mosiac of rock history.

Not to mention the influences are leaning to more Zepp and Queen than ACDC Aerosmith in general. I think the production suits those influences more than AC Smith. With the nu metal bits or 90s vibe i think it works.

But thats not what some want or expect from GNR. Some maynot even wanted Nov Rain or Estranged.

To me in terms of what has gone before CD was a legitimate shot at the next level. Enough so it wasnt just a rerun of UYI. GNR definitely broke the mold on this one.

Great post, I agree with most of it.

I'm gonna take it one step further. Cd is flawed masterpiece. It's a masterpiece yes, but not for the reasons why axl intended. At least I don't think he intended anyways. The three albums that it reminds me of the most are the wall, physical graffiti, and the illusions. While it is similiar to these albums, it is also inferior to the albums. The illusions comparision is obvious so I'm not gonna go into that, but the curious thing for me are the wall and physical graffiti comparisions.

As far as physical graffiti goes, I think axl was shooting for this. Maybe not this particular album persay, but cd is very zeppelin influenced. Not whole lotta love or black dog zeppelin, but in the light or kashmir zeppelin. I've said it before but certain tracks are almost complete ripoffs of zeppelin classics. Cd's intro is like the beginning of in the evening, maddy is very kashmir like, if the world is a poor version of d'yer mak'er, and riad is a poor immigrant song. Go and listen to those songs again, the influences arev staggering. As a huge zeppelin fan I don't mind that axl used zep as his benchmark, because in the end all of his songs are different that its not like he stole anything. But I will say every single zeppelin song is better than the cd versions.

Now here's the interesting part, the wall. I give axl huge credit because cd is the closest album to the wall that anybody outside of pink floyd has ever done. But here's the ironic part, I don't think axl meant to do it. The story that axl tells on cd, is so damn close to the story roger waters told that it still amazes me to this day. But waters meant to tell the story of the wall, while cd is by accident. But if you listen its still there, that's why I consider it to be a masterpiece. Even though it is clearly flawed. Throught cd we get a front row seat into the pschy of one of the last true rock stars. The pain, the loss, the anger, the regret, its all right there. And that is why it is like the wall. The biggest difference is that the wall is in third person, and pink is the torchered rock star. While cd is in first person and axl is the torchered rock star. Waters story is more elegant, and just plain better, I don't think anyone would disagree there. But axl was able to really bare his soul and make a real honest alum, and in todays day and age that is very rare, and the mark of a true artists. So I give him lots of credit for that.

I agree with most of the complaints. Cd does lack a ycbm type rocker (which would of made all the difference). And it is over produced. That's one of the biggest reasons I like this I love. Its the most basic, rawest song on the album. Some say its weak or cheezy, but I disagree. Overall I give cd a solid 7.5. Which is a lot for me, I haven't given an album higher rating than a 5 or 6 in years. Because musicians don't make albums anymore, they just go for one or two good songs. At least axl was able to make 70 mins of interesting music. You satisfied this fan mr. Rose.

[Eu4ic]

I dont think "Zeppelin!" when I hear CD, at all, really. Part of what made Zep so great is how organic and natural their albums sound. CD lacks this.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Eu4ic

[Iron MikeyJ]

Ripoff might be to strong of a word. How about zeppelin inspired?

Yes I agree that zeppelin is way more organic, and cd def lacks organic. I just meant that axl was going for a zeppelin vibe with those songs. I even remember Brain saying "it was like making a zeppelin album."

[Amir]

If they'd had a rocker on the level of YCBM in place of Riad, and Scraped and Catcher and I.R.S. weren't so overproduced, it would be a perfect album in my eyes. TItle track could have been longer (I mean besides the extended intro and outro, more meat in the actual song). But I can see and understand why people have complaints about stuff like Axl not doing re-takes of vocals (I like the vocals for the most part, was happy he did a re-take on Maddy). For me, just because thematically a lot of it resonates with me, it's a 9, 9.5/10, on the same level as AFD for me. Which one I listen to depends on what mood I'm in. If I'm in a happy/just-fuck-it/ecstatic mood, nothing like a bit of Nightrain. If I'm a bit more down, TWAT and Maddy and Prostitute hit the spot for me (like Slash said, CD's a pretty dark, depressing record, just one or two upbeat rockers would have made it more a balanced album).

[Rustycage]

Everything is a mess. So many layers to the point where the different parts just jumble together to become a runny Picasso ripoff painted with loose fecal matter.

Too many theatrical sounding intros.

If you're going to have synth, 2 guitar layers is enough. Everything is battling to be heard in the mix and it's mind numbing.

Enough of the self-centered whining. We could deal with it in other albums because there was plenty "fuck you" in your face type material but now, every song is, "awww, what happened to poor Axl this time?"

The mix is inconsistent. The way the vocals are in the mix for the verse of shacklers sounds good. It's raw and deep and then later, mickey busts into the groove with the excessive nasal twine and lack of body. It's Mickey being kicked in the nuts a lot of the time.

The song Chinese Democracy/Smells like more than a feeling - overrated and one of my least favorite on the album. I didn't like it from the '02 soundboard recordings either.

Better(or not so) - I think the verse is cool. Has a good groove to it. My only complaint is the intro and the way the vocals just mimic the guitar with that crybaby nasal twine. Someone got lazy there(Axl). Vocal lines from any song that mimic the guitar sound lazy and boring, IMO.

Street of dreams - I liked it better when it was the Blues. It had an edge to it. It's not bad when I listen to it from the '02 soundboards. The studio version feels bland.

If the world - If this was a rock song.

Twat - A lot of people like this one but for me, it just sounds like a disaster. It kicks into what sounds like the bridge. The lyrics are trying to tell a story but don't. It's like listening to someone mumble to themselves in a drunken slumber. The supposed to be chorus(but not a chorus or pre-chorus) annoys me. More vocals basically mimicking the the music. The song feels backwards. The song starts sounding like it's the bridge and then shifts down? The parts don't do it for me. Then the song breaks into a huge mess of a bloated mix with too much guitar as if it GNR's string section of a 247 piece orchestra along with 248 Axl's.

CITR - The "catcher in the rye again" part sounds ok to me. The nananana part annoys me but I would have dug it better if that was the guitar line instead of mickey's. There, to me, is the example of where that thick sounding Les needed to be.

IRS - Call a head doctor instead.

Madagascar - I won't be bored by this song anymore. What's with the MLK and Michael J Fox quotes. Yeah, industrial includes a lot of sampling from movies and etc but it sounds like someone throwing spaghetti noodles at the wall hoping it would stick. "Yep, this songs done."

This I love - Someone give this man a tissue, a tampon and a shoulder to cry on, FFS.

The rest.... Sorry? Rock me to sleep. Rhiad and Scraped? If these are better than the leftovers, that's sad. Those should be leftovers and not on a long awaited album.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Rustycage

[Eu4ic]

Ripoff might be to strong of a word. How about zeppelin inspired?

Yes I agree that zeppelin is way more organic, and cd def lacks organic. I just meant that axl was going for a zeppelin vibe with those songs. I even remember Brain saying "it was like making a zeppelin album."

I think the only commonality is that it was a big production with a big sound, big expectations. Brain had a big drumset. GNR was a HUGE band like Zep was a HUGE band. I think the similarities stop there, basically. (Also, Brain had similar Zeppelin-hopes when making Primus' Brown Album--which does have a Bonham sound on drums)

I was really expecting/hoping CD to be a double-album like Physical Graffiti; like the GNR version of that album. i WANTED that album very badly, trust me.

Having Axl, Brain, and BH was almost enough. I think Brain and BH were on board to make that kind of album but due to extenuating circumstances, the ship sailed.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Eu4ic

[Iron MikeyJ]

Saying all that, I think cd is very comparable to both physical graffiti and in through the out door. I have them all on vinyl, and that's usually how I listen to them. I usually listen to them in this order 1. Zep 1, 2. Appetite 3. Physical graffiti 4. Cd 5. In through the out door. (I have all of zeps albums on vinyl, but I still need lies, the illsuions, and tsi.)

Anyways cd holds up very well with these classic albums, and they sound great in this order.

[wasteofammo]

the album era is dead.

[Iron MikeyJ]

You can say the same for music in general. The music industry killed music. They decided to flood the world with manufactured crap. There are good artists out there but most people have never heard of them. Its a shame really. I feel bad for you young kids, your never gonna know what its like to follow a real band for lots of years. I would say the average musician is in the spot light for about 3 years now, and quickly forgotten.

[axlrosefan1]

You can say the same for music in general. The music industry killed music. They decided to flood the world with manufactured crap. There are good artists out there but most people have never heard of them. Its a shame really. I feel bad for you young kids, your never gonna know what its like to follow a real band for lots of years. I would say the average musician is in the spot light for about 3 years now, and quickly forgotten.

"you young kids". Yes, please generalize some more from that almighty pedestal you sit on since you are authority on which artists are good and which aren't. Fucking idiot.

[volcano62]

You can say the same for music in general. The music industry killed music. They decided to flood the world with manufactured crap. There are good artists out there but most people have never heard of them. Its a shame really. I feel bad for you young kids, your never gonna know what its like to follow a real band for lots of years. I would say the average musician is in the spot light for about 3 years now, and quickly forgotten.

"you young kids". Yes, please generalize some more from that almighty pedestal you sit on since you are authority on which artists are good and which aren't. Fucking idiot.

fucks your problem?

[DieselDaisy]

Yes, the illusions tour was a bad time for Axl.

He is discussing the album, UYI.

'''For me, when I hear certain things on the "Use Your Illusion" tour, I... on that record, it's... since I'm in it, I can hear a band dying. I can hear when Izzy was unconsciously over it. I can hear where the band was leaning away from what Guns N' Roses [had] originally been about. People may have their favorite songs, and it may be on "Use Your Illusion," but most people do tend to lean towards "Appetite" as being the defining Guns N' Roses record, and I can hear how, in the sound, it was moving away from that there. There's just so much I was able to do in keeping that aspect together.''

- Axl, Loder 1999 interview.

''On one hand I knew the band was over before we started touring Illusions but you have hope…''

- Axl, Dexter chats 2008

I mean up until very recently (about 2011) Axl was only playing four - I repeat, four - songs from those epic double albums (ycbm, kohd, lald, nr). How many was he playing from Appetite: 7 or 8.

[Coma16]

Yes, the illusions tour was a bad time for Axl.

He is discussing the album, UYI.

'''For me, when I hear certain things on the "Use Your Illusion" tour, I... on that record, it's... since I'm in it, I can hear a band dying. I can hear when Izzy was unconsciously over it. I can hear where the band was leaning away from what Guns N' Roses [had] originally been about. People may have their favorite songs, and it may be on "Use Your Illusion," but most people do tend to lean towards "Appetite" as being the defining Guns N' Roses record, and I can hear how, in the sound, it was moving away from that there. There's just so much I was able to do in keeping that aspect together.''

- Axl, Loder 1999 interview.

''On one hand I knew the band was over before we started touring Illusions but you have hope…''

- Axl, Dexter chats 2008

I mean up until very recently (about 2011) Axl was only playing four - I repeat, four - songs from those epic double albums (ycbm, kohd, lald, nr). How many was he playing from Appetite: 7 or 8.

You are conveniently forgetting Don't Cry, Estranged, Civil War, and 14 Years....

[Eu4ic]

The music industry killed music? Pretty sure people stealing music on the internet didnt help things. Neither did MTV selling the fuck out.

[Iron MikeyJ]

@axlrosefan fuck you, I never told anyone what to listen to. Or who's good or who sucks, if all you can add to a discusions is insults then your opinion is as worthless as you are.

@eu4ic, your right. Internet downloading and mtv changing did have massive effects also. My point was "the industry" decides which artists to push on the public. Alan niven said in a recent interview that "nothing in the music industry happens by accident." It's a very orchestrated business. Are their good musicians out there? Fucking a there is, probably some great ones. But the ones they pick are the ones that they can sell to mainstreet america. Its all very commercialized.

Many factors lead to this.

[vaida]

CD is a bad album because.. it doesn't contain much Guns N'Roses.. 1/5th to be precise..

[Apollo]

@axlrosefan fuck you, I never told anyone what to listen to. Or who's good or who sucks, if all you can add to a discusions is insults then your opinion is as worthless as you are.

Not jumping into the topic debate................just pointing something out as an inpartial bystander............Mike, aren't you doing the exact same thing you are complaining about Axlrosefan doing? In a sentence where you say "if all you can add to discussions is insults"..........you also call him "worthless" and tell him to f*ck off.

You are doing the exact same thing you are complaining about.

[Iron MikeyJ]

@groghan,

Yes I suppose I was. Sometimes I also can resort to hurling insults when provoked.

[PirateRadio]

could have used a chorus here and there.

Seriously. This and too many mid tempo songs. Catcher and TWAT would stand out so much more if there wasn't Prostitute, SOD, IRS, Madagascar, and Better and Chinese on the high end. These songs should have been scattered over a few albums.

It just seems that you can clump together every song in three catagorical tempos....which means there's nothing "popping".

[Chris 55]

The music industry killed music? Pretty sure people stealing music on the internet didnt help things. Neither did MTV selling the fuck out.

I never thought of it as "stealing". It's copyright infringement. "Stealing" means that what was once there is now gone. I think a large part of the downloading was because people were sick of buying an album with 2-3 good songs and the rest filler.

[tomazrui]

Best GNR album.

[Bulldog]

Best GNR album.

[wasted]

I think taken on its own terms, its very strong set of songs. But theres a whole lotta rosie there and a lot missing from what people liked about GNR.

Theres no Duff bass intro like on RNDTH, theres no Izzy rock n roll tunes. People really liked Slashs solos. In some cases usually Bucket that doesnt matter. But there are times where they rape those ecpectations.

I think the main thing is the production, Guns fans in general seems to like a more no nonsense production style whether its AcDC, Zepp, AIC or even NIN. A unified sound.

Personally Ive come across this kind of production before with UNKLE or even FNM, Korn.

To me this is what is mind blowing about CD though, the sheer insane scope of it. Its like a huge pointilist mosiac of rock history.

Not to mention the influences are leaning to more Zepp and Queen than ACDC Aerosmith in general. I think the production suits those influences more than AC Smith. With the nu metal bits or 90s vibe i think it works.

But thats not what some want or expect from GNR. Some maynot even wanted Nov Rain or Estranged.

To me in terms of what has gone before CD was a legitimate shot at the next level. Enough so it wasnt just a rerun of UYI. GNR definitely broke the mold on this one.

Great post, I agree with most of it.

I'm gonna take it one step further. Cd is flawed masterpiece. It's a masterpiece yes, but not for the reasons why axl intended. At least I don't think he intended anyways. The three albums that it reminds me of the most are the wall, physical graffiti, and the illusions. While it is similiar to these albums, it is also inferior to the albums. The illusions comparision is obvious so I'm not gonna go into that, but the curious thing for me are the wall and physical graffiti comparisions.

As far as physical graffiti goes, I think axl was shooting for this. Maybe not this particular album persay, but cd is very zeppelin influenced. Not whole lotta love or black dog zeppelin, but in the light or kashmir zeppelin. I've said it before but certain tracks are almost complete ripoffs of zeppelin classics. Cd's intro is like the beginning of in the evening, maddy is very kashmir like, if the world is a poor version of d'yer mak'er, and riad is a poor immigrant song. Go and listen to those songs again, the influences arev staggering. As a huge zeppelin fan I don't mind that axl used zep as his benchmark, because in the end all of his songs are different that its not like he stole anything. But I will say every single zeppelin song is better than the cd versions.

Now here's the interesting part, the wall. I give axl huge credit because cd is the closest album to the wall that anybody outside of pink floyd has ever done. But here's the ironic part, I don't think axl meant to do it. The story that axl tells on cd, is so damn close to the story roger waters told that it still amazes me to this day. But waters meant to tell the story of the wall, while cd is by accident. But if you listen its still there, that's why I consider it to be a masterpiece. Even though it is clearly flawed. Throught cd we get a front row seat into the pschy of one of the last true rock stars. The pain, the loss, the anger, the regret, its all right there. And that is why it is like the wall. The biggest difference is that the wall is in third person, and pink is the torchered rock star. While cd is in first person and axl is the torchered rock star. Waters story is more elegant, and just plain better, I don't think anyone would disagree there. But axl was able to really bare his soul and make a real honest alum, and in todays day and age that is very rare, and the mark of a true artists. So I give him lots of credit for that.

I agree with most of the complaints. Cd does lack a ycbm type rocker (which would of made all the difference). And it is over produced. That's one of the biggest reasons I like this I love. Its the most basic, rawest song on the album. Some say its weak or cheezy, but I disagree. Overall I give cd a solid 7.5. Which is a lot for me, I haven't given an album higher rating than a 5 or 6 in years. Because musicians don't make albums anymore, they just go for one or two good songs. At least axl was able to make 70 mins of interesting music. You satisfied this fan mr. Rose.

i agree in a way but I see CD as Exile on main street. AFD is their Sticky Fingers, UYI is their Physical Graphiti. But in spirit and structure CD is very Exile.

I defintely hear Kashmir in Madagascar, ITW is very All of my Love. Drums on CD are very latter day Zepp to me. But theres so many influences. Twat and Catcher have Gimme Shelter, You cant always get what you want. Not to mention all the 90s stuff.

I do think theres a theme in the songs. And its verymuch what Axl has always wrotten about. But on CD it becomes mkre spiritual in a positive way. Freedom seems important theme. Escaping from oppression. Mixing metaphors. A geopolitical break up album. Its not a concept album but because of the film sountrack vibe Axl is cast in this epic movie. A people get pissed off because Axl has to play the victim then rise above. Wheteas UYI he was just lashing out or heartbroken. on CD hes down and out in exile then horns on Madagascar start up.