Michael Jackson

[luciusfunk]

I'm a bit late, but I know in Texas, the average joe is more likely to know Elvis than Michael Jackson.

Don't forget In the Ghetto.

No Buddy Holly love?

[DieselDaisy]

Exactly. Elvis was a proper hardworking musician, he, Scotty Moore and Bill Black piled into an old car. Also let me tell you something about Elvis and originality. At high-school he already had that look - sideburns, greased hair, oversized sport jackets - and everybody said he was the oddest thing they had ever seen - and I think he had to fend-off a bit of bullying here It was an image that was totally original and totally unique.

[RussTCB]

Got this done today:

[Towelie]

^^ I like it.

Miss MJ.

[KBear]

And it's those records that are considered his fuckin' peak...at least for purists. Honestly, some other pretty whiteboy would've took his place? Y'know, there were a shitload of them and none of em reached where Elvis reached.

And btw, all these great bands, The Beatles, The Stones, The Who could all be said to be a construct of management. The Beatles dressed, spoke and acted and cut their hair as they were told to get where they were, same with The Stones. Fuck me, even The Stones as songwriters were a construct of management, they were MADE to write songs.

Also, can i just say, this whole alternate reality thing, i hear this bought up often is musical discussions like 'if this wouldn't've happened then this would've happened' or 'such and such shouldn't've happened, it should've happened like this' and to paraphrase Lenny Bruce, there is no if, there's only reality, if is a dream in peoples heads.

The elements of Elvis that were the source of controversy, his particular style of getting down to his music, his long hair, his dress sense, all that funky shit he wore (and i mean the early stuff more than the later stuff here), his attitude was dictated to him by no one. The same cannot be said for The Beatles and The Stones. Fuck me, even The Who were more or less constructed as mods by Pete Meaden, with two of em (Entwhistle and Daltrey) actual open dislikers of the mod schtick, imagine that, acting and dressing in a style that you actually actively dislike, not just like...not caring and just putting on a suit cuz you're told but actually hating a certain style and what it represents and being into the polar opposite of it...but doing it anyway.

Now I'm one of the biggest Beatles fans you'll ever meet but lets have it right here.

It basically all comes down to authorship, doesn't it? This is whats the problem, you ain't an 'artist' unless you write your own songs well i think thats a load of bollocks and nobody can give me a good reason as to why that makes a given artist more value than one who sings someone elses written song. What, do you feel like you know em better or something, like you were made privy to a piece of their heart, like you got some connection to something deep about them now that makes you feel close to em or something? Lemme tell you something, most 'songwriters' just basically fuckin' put words together that sound good.

If someone can actually explain to me this value put in writing ones own songs that stretches to the point where if you DON'T write your own songs then you ain't a credible artist, I want that explained to me and if someone can explain it in a way that makes sense then hey, i might take it up as an opinion.

So Elvis ain't a credible artist, Diana Ross ain't a credible artist, Frank Sinatra ain't a credible artist?!?! Really?!?! Marvin Gaye, someone else who is considered a fucking titan of post war popular music, he wrote hardly any of his own songs, the majority someone else wrote...all these people arent credible artists and are a construct of management or whatever? Please.

Len, it's not to say that you can't be a credible performer if you have others write the songs for you, because as a performer you could be world class.

But doesn't it say something if an artist can both write and perform and do each at a high level?

I don't really know how to say it, but as a listener there is something different in listening to a performer perform their own music. More a connection to him/her? No, that's not it. More of a feeling that you are getting more from the artist. I think so. They didn't just have some music slapped in front of them that they learnt and then recorded over a few days in a studio. Instead, the album is a collaboration amongst 2-5 people over the course of one/two years, and then you get to listen to them perform it. Is there a certain integrity to that? Yeah, I say there is.

And while having an album slapped in front of you for you to record doesn't necessarily mean you lack credibility as an artist, artists who do lack credibility certainly benefit from having an album served up nice on a plate for them to cash in on.

[nickzark]

Michael Jackson was one of the best.Sure with Elvis and Beatles.We all miss him..He is now in a better world..

[Towelie]

I loved it when he sailed a statue of himself down the River Thames to promote History.

The man was a fucking giant and he knew it. Such a great F-U to his critics....

[Sixes]

fucking hell but I just spent a half hour reading this thread

a thread that lenny, diesel daisy and dalsh own btw

[Towelie]

^^ Shut up.

[Guest Len B'stard]

And it's those records that are considered his fuckin' peak...at least for purists. Honestly, some other pretty whiteboy would've took his place? Y'know, there were a shitload of them and none of em reached where Elvis reached.

And btw, all these great bands, The Beatles, The Stones, The Who could all be said to be a construct of management. The Beatles dressed, spoke and acted and cut their hair as they were told to get where they were, same with The Stones. Fuck me, even The Stones as songwriters were a construct of management, they were MADE to write songs.

Also, can i just say, this whole alternate reality thing, i hear this bought up often is musical discussions like 'if this wouldn't've happened then this would've happened' or 'such and such shouldn't've happened, it should've happened like this' and to paraphrase Lenny Bruce, there is no if, there's only reality, if is a dream in peoples heads.

The elements of Elvis that were the source of controversy, his particular style of getting down to his music, his long hair, his dress sense, all that funky shit he wore (and i mean the early stuff more than the later stuff here), his attitude was dictated to him by no one. The same cannot be said for The Beatles and The Stones. Fuck me, even The Who were more or less constructed as mods by Pete Meaden, with two of em (Entwhistle and Daltrey) actual open dislikers of the mod schtick, imagine that, acting and dressing in a style that you actually actively dislike, not just like...not caring and just putting on a suit cuz you're told but actually hating a certain style and what it represents and being into the polar opposite of it...but doing it anyway.

Now I'm one of the biggest Beatles fans you'll ever meet but lets have it right here.

It basically all comes down to authorship, doesn't it? This is whats the problem, you ain't an 'artist' unless you write your own songs well i think thats a load of bollocks and nobody can give me a good reason as to why that makes a given artist more value than one who sings someone elses written song. What, do you feel like you know em better or something, like you were made privy to a piece of their heart, like you got some connection to something deep about them now that makes you feel close to em or something? Lemme tell you something, most 'songwriters' just basically fuckin' put words together that sound good.

If someone can actually explain to me this value put in writing ones own songs that stretches to the point where if you DON'T write your own songs then you ain't a credible artist, I want that explained to me and if someone can explain it in a way that makes sense then hey, i might take it up as an opinion.

So Elvis ain't a credible artist, Diana Ross ain't a credible artist, Frank Sinatra ain't a credible artist?!?! Really?!?! Marvin Gaye, someone else who is considered a fucking titan of post war popular music, he wrote hardly any of his own songs, the majority someone else wrote...all these people arent credible artists and are a construct of management or whatever? Please.

Len, it's not to say that you can't be a credible performer if you have others write the songs for you, because as a performer you could be world class.

But doesn't it say something if an artist can both write and perform and do each at a high level?

I don't really know how to say it, but as a listener there is something different in listening to a performer perform their own music. More a connection to him/her? No, that's not it. More of a feeling that you are getting more from the artist. I think so. They didn't just have some music slapped in front of them that they learnt and then recorded over a few days in a studio. Instead, the album is a collaboration amongst 2-5 people over the course of one/two years, and then you get to listen to them perform it. Is there a certain integrity to that? Yeah, I say there is.

And while having an album slapped in front of you for you to record doesn't necessarily mean you lack credibility as an artist, artists who do lack credibility certainly benefit from having an album served up nice on a plate for them to cash in on.

Yeah but someone could be communicating a personal self-authored truth in a dull and flat way and then some guy who didn't write it could belt it out in a way that makes it speak to millions, which is the more credible artist? Forget that, which is the more functional artist? Thats why they're two separate jobs that you can freely take exclusively of each other.

Got this done today:

Thats a pretty sick tattoo

[DR DOOM]

I wish he had concentrated more on making good music than being a weird fucker.

[Towelie]

^^ I think he did pretty well on the making good music front to be honest.

[DR DOOM]

More of it, I mean.

[Guest Len B'stard]

I loved it when he sailed a statue of himself down the River Thames to promote History.

The man was a fucking giant and he knew it. Such a great F-U to his critics....

With all due respect Towelie, people in England around that time thought he was a massive cunt and a pedophile. And things like this didn't really help his cause. When Jarvis Cocker did what he did at that Brit Awards an entire generation went 'yes!'. I like Jacko and i think he was a really good performer but stuff like that, considering where he was in his career/life is slightly poorly timed.

[Snake-Pit]

[Towelie]

With all due respect Towelie, people in England around that time thought he was a massive cunt and a pedophile. And things like this didn't really help his cause. When Jarvis Cocker did what he did at that Brit Awards an entire generation went 'yes!'. I like Jacko and i think he was a really good performer but stuff like that, considering where he was in his career/life is slightly poorly timed.

Ah, fuck that shit. I'm British too, I remember that time vividly. He knew sailing the statue down the Thames was going to be controversial, he even said "they fell right into my trap" referring to the media reaction (1995 Diane Sawyer Prime Time interview). It was a shameless publicity stunt and worked brilliantly. I think Jacko knew and understood he was a polarising figure after the 93 allegations, and played up to that, and for a few years, it worked. Before everything turned to shit for him in the early 00s....

But back in the mid-90s, he was selling more albums/singles in the UK (and Europe) than most of the media-darling Britpop bands that were supposedly "the voice of a generation" and other such hyperbole (including Pulp, who for the record, I like). From 1995-97 he had two number one albums, three number one singles, a bunch of top 5 singles, including the biggest selling single of 1995 and a Christmas number one. His career was doing just fine despite the British tabloids trashing him.

As mocked as MJ was for The Brits performance his record sales for both Earth Song and History went through the roof. No such thing as bad publicity and all that.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Towelie

[Guest Len B'stard]

Ah, fuck that shit. I'm British too, I remember that time vividly. He knew sailing the statue down the Thames was going to be controversial, he even said "they fell right into my trap" referring to the media reaction (1995 Diane Sawyer Prime Time interview). It was a shameless publicity stunt and worked brilliantly. I think Jacko knew and understood he was a polarising figure after the 93 allegations, and played up to that, and for a few years, it worked. Before everything turned to shit for him in the early 00s....

You don't think there's something kinda obscene about that? He was a polarising figure in 93 with the allegations...so he used that fact to further his career? Thats kinda what the whole Brit Awards furore was about, him presenting himself as this kinda deity with weeping children at his feet as if they are beseeching the second coming. I never knew that he was doing that in a self aware kinda way until I just read your post, that kinda makes it worse.

But back in the mid-90s, he was selling more albums/singles in the UK (and Europe) than most of the media-darling Britpop bands that were supposedly "the voice of a generation" and other such hyperbole (including Pulp, who for the record, I like). From 95-97 he had two number one albums, three number one singles, including the biggest selling single of 1995 and a Christmas number one. His career was doing just fine despite the British tabloids trashing him.

Oh no doubt about that but then rock n roll movements are always kinda an alternative in that sense aren't they, so they're never really gonna have the same kinda record sale revenue as the monoliths of the day, you might read cute little stats like 'NIRVANA KNOCKED MJ OFF THE TOP OF THE CHARTS' but you, i and everybody knows they ain't got the sack to go the distance with the likes of Jacko in terms of record sales, those movements are kinda like the alternative invading the pop charts for a small space of time.

As mocked as MJ was for The Brits performance his record sales for both Earth Song and History went through the roof. No such thing as bad publicity and all that.

Yeah, I remember, when Earth Song came out you couldn't turn on the radio or the telly without it popping on somewhere. Scream was pretty massive when it came out too, the most expensive video of it's day, was it not? I gotta say, i loved it too.

[Towelie]

Of course it was obscene, but that's all part of the fun. People take it too seriously, I don't know, perhaps because of the seriousness of the allegations that he faced in 93 I guess it rubbed some people up the wrong way, but I always believed in his innocence, so as a fan, I just enjoyed watching him piss everyone off. It's fucking pop music at the end of the day. He knew exactly what he was doing and both MJ and Pulp benefited massively from the media hoopla of the Brits that year. I wouldn't be surprised if the whole thing was premeditated.....

Edited February 13, 2014 by Towelie

[Guest Len B'stard]

Of course it was obscene, but isn't that kinda fun? People take it too seriously, I don't know, perhaps because of the seriousness of the allegations that he faced in 93 I guess it rubbed some people up the wrong way, but I always believed in his innocence, so as a fan, I just enjoyed watching him piss everyone off. It's fucking pop music at the end of the day. He knew exactly what he was doing and both MJ and Pulp benefited massively from the media hoopla of the Brits that year. I wouldn't be surprised if the whole thing was premeditated.....

It's kinda like the George Zimmerman thing where people are like he's using a negative thing to further his fame, now I'm not drawing parrallels in any sense aside from the principle but it's kinda on that level.

Can I ask you something Towelie, i figure you're a fan so you'll know. Whats the deal with the skin colour thing, was it really vitiligo? I think you showed me some pics and it was vitiligo but was it over his entire body? I know it can happen like that even though usually it is patches. It just never looked like vitiligo to me, in it's entirity, vitiligo is a weird albino kinda white isn't it, it's not that sheer clean looking white that Jacko ended up, whats the deal with the whole thing?

And just to clarify I'm not taking the piss here, serious question. And in terms of the Jordy Chandler thing, whats your feelings on him paying the kid off etc. And also, is true as i heard over the era that the filth asked the kid to like, describe Jackos genitals or, at any rate some part of his body and he nailed it correctly, like it was something that only someone whoose seen him starkers could identify.

[Towelie]

Can I ask you something Towelie, i figure you're a fan so you'll know. Whats the deal with the skin colour thing, was it really vitiligo? I think you showed me some pics and it was vitiligo but was it over his entire body? I know it can happen like that even though usually it is patches. It just never looked like vitiligo to me, in it's entirity, vitiligo is a weird albino kinda white isn't it, it's not that sheer clean looking white that Jacko ended up, whats the deal with the whole thing?

His autopsy confirmed that he did actually have vitiligo. But he also whitened his skin. But then I can sort of understand why he would do that, to even out the blotches. Michael Jackson isn't the only person with vitiligo who has lightened their entire skin pigmentation. Look at this woman... http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/woman/health/health/2585259/Darcels-black-to-white-skin-change-raises-Jacko-question.html

And in terms of the Jordy Chandler thing, whats your feelings on him paying the kid off etc. And also, is true as i heard over the era that the filth asked the kid to like, describe Jackos genitals or, at any rate some part of his body and he nailed it correctly, like it was something that only someone whoose seen him starkers could identify.

The rumour was that he described vitiligo markings/blotches on MJ's penis. The picture Jordy drew was leaked onto the net a few years back if you care to look it up. It's a pretty basic childs illustration of a dick and doesn't really prove anything, especially when you take into consideration that MJ underwent a full frontal examination from the prosecution who took pictures from every angle and they still didn't prosecute.

People seem to forget, MJ paid the family off because they filed a civil suit against him (not a criminal one). The DA and the prosecution could've still arrested him, no amount of money would've made that go away. But Jordy didn't want to participate in a criminal trial and they didn't have enough evidence to prosecute.

IMO, it was a (successful) extortion attempt. Have you heard the audio recordings of Jordy's dad talking about taking MJ to the cleaners? It's really quite enlightening.

[Towelie]

The audio recording goes on longer than that, but I can't find the full version on Youtube. The person on the phone to Jordy's dad says "what about the boy?" and the father replies "that's irrelevant to me."

[Christopher Lala]

I never did believe he was a pedo.

I think because he was so weird, a lot of people assume it must be true.

[Guest Len B'stard]

He baited himself up badly with that kid where he was like he slept with him and why not but, in his defence, creepy though it is, it's not exactly a smoking gun in terms of him fucking the kid or having any sexual contact. Look bait as fuck but it's still don't make him a nonce.

[DieselDaisy]

I was going over this old thread and laughed at the line about ''MJ having more chart competition' than Elvis. Elvis was competing with Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Jerry Lee, Carl Perkins, Roy Orbison - later on, Vincent, Buddy Holly and Cochrane. Few periods in rock music have ever been so competative than the mid-late 1950s.

What was Jackson facing in the 80s? Lionel Richie, fair enough. Madge and Cyndie Lauper a bit later perhaps.

[Towelie]

^^ Prince, George Michael, Terence Trent D'arby, Madonna, Whitney Houston, Diana Ross, Janet Jackson, Bruce Springsteen to name but a few.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Towelie