Michael Jackson

[Towelie]

A few shots that show his vitiligo....

[DieselDaisy]

^^ Prince, George Michael, Terence Trent D'arby, Madonna, Whitney Houston, Diana Ross, Janet Jackson, Bruce Springsteen to name but a few.

Was Springsteen competing on the same playing field as Jackson? Perhaps Born in the USA Springsteen. The rest, with the exception of Prince and Madge (and she was a bit later do not forget), were never serious competition for Jacko. Not like Elvis who faced at least five more absolute legends in the fifties.

[Johnny Drama]

Pretty sure Whitneys first two albums were fucking huge not to mention Janet was as big as MJ in the 90s. You're also forgetting Def Leppard. In the 90s you're going against Guns, Metallica, Garth Brooks, Pearl Jam. When HIStory came out it would have been competing with Jagged Little Pill.

All those artists have real sales on their plates unlike Chuck fuckin Berry and that.

[Guest Len B'stard]

Another word against Chuck Berry and I'll do something to you befitting a man named Tristan

[Johnny Drama]

You gonna put your plonker on my face innit?

[Guest Len B'stard]

Actually i was gonna set you up with an audition for Cats! but i like the way you think

[GivenToFly]

I was going over this old thread and laughed at the line about ''MJ having more chart competition' than Elvis. Elvis was competing with Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Jerry Lee, Carl Perkins, Roy Orbison - later on, Vincent, Buddy Holly and Cochrane. Few periods in rock music have ever been so competative than the mid-late 1950s.

What was Jackson facing in the 80s? Lionel Richie, fair enough. Madge and Cyndie Lauper a bit later perhaps.

^^ Prince, George Michael, Terence Trent D'arby, Madonna, Whitney Houston, Diana Ross, Janet Jackson, Bruce Springsteen to name but a few.

And all the artists who haven't stood the test of time but who were successful then and all the one hit wonders and all the other genres and new forms of entertainment (like TV and movies directed at teenagers and young adults which barely existed in the 50s).

My point was a nascent vs an established industry. With the low numbers of recording artists and rock'n'roll being pretty much the only genre at the time for kids only and the very short lifecycle of a single through rotation it shouldn't have been very hard to add another top 10 song to your list. Compare to the 80s when the industry had matured and there were hundreds of genres, thousands of labels, millions of musicians.

[Guest Len B'stard]

I was going over this old thread and laughed at the line about ''MJ having more chart competition' than Elvis. Elvis was competing with Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Jerry Lee, Carl Perkins, Roy Orbison - later on, Vincent, Buddy Holly and Cochrane. Few periods in rock music have ever been so competative than the mid-late 1950s.

What was Jackson facing in the 80s? Lionel Richie, fair enough. Madge and Cyndie Lauper a bit later perhaps.

^^ Prince, George Michael, Terence Trent D'arby, Madonna, Whitney Houston, Diana Ross, Janet Jackson, Bruce Springsteen to name but a few.

And all the artists who haven't stood the test of time but who were successful then and all the one hit wonders and all the other genres and new forms of entertainment (like TV and movies directed at teenagers and young adults which barely existed in the 50s).

My point was a nascent vs an established industry. With the low numbers of recording artists and rock'n'roll being pretty much the only genre at the time for kids only and the very short lifecycle of a single through rotation it shouldn't have been very hard to add another top 10 song to your list. Compare to the 80s when the industry had matured and there were hundreds of genres, thousands of labels, millions of musicians.

But there weren't a low number of recording artists nor was rock n roll the only genre nor was there a lack of one hit wonder types in the 50s/early 60s who didn't stand the test of time.

[DieselDaisy]

I was going over this old thread and laughed at the line about ''MJ having more chart competition' than Elvis. Elvis was competing with Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Jerry Lee, Carl Perkins, Roy Orbison - later on, Vincent, Buddy Holly and Cochrane. Few periods in rock music have ever been so competative than the mid-late 1950s.

What was Jackson facing in the 80s? Lionel Richie, fair enough. Madge and Cyndie Lauper a bit later perhaps.

^^ Prince, George Michael, Terence Trent D'arby, Madonna, Whitney Houston, Diana Ross, Janet Jackson, Bruce Springsteen to name but a few.

And all the artists who haven't stood the test of time but who were successful then and all the one hit wonders and all the other genres and new forms of entertainment (like TV and movies directed at teenagers and young adults which barely existed in the 50s).

My point was a nascent vs an established industry. With the low numbers of recording artists and rock'n'roll being pretty much the only genre at the time for kids only and the very short lifecycle of a single through rotation it shouldn't have been very hard to add another top 10 song to your list. Compare to the 80s when the industry had matured and there were hundreds of genres, thousands of labels, millions of musicians.

None of this is true. There were thousands of performers in the 1950s and you had blues, bluesgrass, rhythm and blues and rock n' roll (which was merely rhythm and blues when it was white), rockabilly, country, easy listening - do not forget that easy listening performers were still at large. And it was extremely difficult, to 'add another top 10 song to your list'. Remember, Chuck Berry, easily in the top 3 kings of the era by anyone's reckoning, never had a number one hit during his heyday! It was highly competative.

[Guest Len B'stard]

Not only that but people like Frank Sinatra had HUGE popularity and sold a sick amount of records. Or people like Hank Williams drew rabid audiences. Country music is general, it is discounted just how much of that shit was about. And as far as like, one or two or 5 hit wonders from the 50s who disappeared, look Connie Francis, people like that. Christ Almighty, the wealth out there in the 50s, Jerry Lee Lewis for example, Fats Domino, The Big Bopper, Ricky Nelson, these are jus aside from the many Dies' mentioned. Who was it that sang The Great Pretender?

[Towelie]

Get off your armchairs grandpa and admit it, MJ owns Elvis in every single way imaginable.

[Guest Len B'stard]

Absolute bollocks. And i love how Jacko started pulling the race card back in the day when shit started crumbling on him like when you start to get on the level of Elvis the establishment turns on you or something.

[DieselDaisy]

Yes, he blamed the poor sales of that last album, Invincible, on race. Did you see his televised funeral? The Jackson mob turned it into a black power event: ''yeh man, Michael was an inspiration for black people'' (leaving out the part that he was so proud to be a brother that he applied chemicals to his face to become, white)!

[Towelie]

Yes, he blamed the poor sales of that last album, Invincible, on race. Did you see his televised funeral? The Jackson mob turned it into a black power event: ''yeh man, Michael was an inspiration for black people'' (leaving out the part that he was so proud to be a brother that he applied chemicals to his face to become, white)!

Like you're leaving out the fact that his autopsy confirmed he had vitiligo?

Edited February 14, 2014 by Towelie

[DieselDaisy]

If you believe that you''ll believe anything.

Listen, I hate to sound like a Jackson hater here because Off the Wall is one of my favourite albums ever; it's just there is no way you can compare him to Elvis. No way.

[Towelie]

Autopsies don't lie.

[Guest Len B'stard]

Yes, he blamed the poor sales of that last album, Invincible, on race. Did you see his televised funeral? The Jackson mob turned it into a black power event: ''yeh man, Michael was an inspiration for black people'' (leaving out the part that he was so proud to be a brother that he applied chemicals to his face to become, white)!

The worst thing about it is the industry did so much for him, he was a darling of the industry...and white people fuckin' loved him, he was probably the first black guy they really really really really embraced wholesale. He could have a pop at the media, tabloid media etc but the actual music industry? Biting the hand somewhat.

I think people were really ready for believing that he didn't have vitiligo because it fit the image of this darling of white society who, despite being black didn't 'talk black' whatever the fucks thats meant to mean or adhere to commonly accepted modes of behaviour racially speaking, so it was an easy mental association to make that, ugh, he wanted to be white, he's an Uncle Tom etc.

Towelie put me right on that one really and it made me question why and how I came to accept the opposite and it's basically through like...schoolboy just accepting some shit you heard years ago blindly or whatever.

Edited February 14, 2014 by sugaraylen

[Towelie]

The worst thing about it is the industry did so much for him, he was a darling of the industry...and white people fuckin' loved him, he was probably the first black guy they really really really really embraced wholesale. He could have a pop at the media, tabloid media etc but the actual music industry? Biting the hand somewhat.

Not true at all.

Do you know how long MTV resisted playing his music videos until they eventually had to cave into the pressure of public demand?

MJ was never a darling of the industry, the way people like Madonna were (and still are). Thriller had lukewarm reviews when it was released, it's only afterwards when it was selling by the truckload that it was recognised by music critics.

Not to mention the fact that everything post-Thriller has been largely derided or ignored by music critics and historians. He was selling 20mil plus with albums like Bad and Dangerous and yet they were still being called a flop due to their failure to match Thrillers unobtainable sales figures.

[Sixes]

So selling a lot of copies of Thriller changed critics opinions? That's bollocks. If they did, their integrity is shot and their opinion has no value anyway.

How long did MTV resist playing his videos?

And everything post Thriller is derided by critics....and? What's your point? Every critic had to give all of his work 5 stars because it was selling a lot or because his fans think his albums are the bee's knees?

MJ was absolutely a darling of the industry and of the public ever since he was paraded out at 5 years old. That certainly did wonders for him later in life, no?

[Iron MikeyJ]

What everyone here is forgetting is he was one of the most talented motherfuckers that ever walked the face of the earth, period. He really was. Say what you will about his influence, music, career, aquisations, and what not, but it doesn't really matter. Look at Bruno Mars, Justin Timberlake, Usher and so on. The industry is filled with motherfuckers who were DIRECTLY influenced by MJ. I would go so far as to say that his influence is larger than those that influneced him, guys like James Brown and Jackie Wilson. I'm not saying MJ was better, but his influence has proven to be stronger than even those guys. You guys can call him a fruit, or queer, or whatever you want. But strictly talent alone places him in the hallowed gates of music history. He probably was one of the greatest entertainers that ever lived. I'm not going to say he was number 1, but he is in the discussion along with a select few others.

I am a huge Prince fan also, and the running debate was always who was better MJ or Prince. Prince was the better musician, no doubt about that. Vocals I would say they were probably a wash. But as great as Prince was on stage entertaining an crowd, MJ owned him on that front. MJ was the better dancer of the two. Prince was a direct copy of James Brown, dancing wise. Even though MJ was influneced by JB, he created his own style. That is something Prince never quite pulled off. MJ also produced far better albums than Prince did. Prince really only had 1 great album, Purple Rain. He had a lot of hits throughout his career, and some other very good albums, but not to the degree MJ did. MJ had 2 classic albums; off the wall and Thriller. MJ also had two other "near classic" albums with Bad and Dangerous, and one album that fans absolutely love in HIStory. Prince's album's really don't even come close to the quality that MJ's did. Sign of the times, sounds very 80's to me, just like Bad does. But Bad is just plain better, song for song. 1999 is kind of like Prince's Off the wall, but again, song for song Off the wall is just plain better. The rest of his career was marked with good songs here and there, but no solid albums start to finish. So I would say MJ proved to be greater than Prince. And as I said, I freaking love Prince. He is one of the 3 best living musicians on the planet imo, along with Stevie Wonder and Sir Paul Mc.

So I think many of you are just plain selling MJ short, mainly because many people just don't like him. Which is fine, you are entitled to feel that way. But in doing so you guys are turning a blind eye to one of the greatest "song and dance" guys that ever lived. I say "song and dance" guys because MJ wasn't a great musician. He wasn't going to amaze you with his piano or guitar skills, but if you wanted someone to stand in front and entertain an audience with his voice and stage presence, he was absolutely one of the best that ever lived, in any era.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Mike420

[Sixes]

I could give a fuck about dancing, to be honest, if I'm going to see a music act. That's the absolute last thing on my list of things I want to see.

[Guest Len B'stard]

I would go so far as to say that his influence is larger than those that influneced him, guys like James Brown

Do you not think thats slightly illogical though? I mean surely if James Browns influencees go out and influence others then thats to JBs credit as much as MJs.

I could give a fuck about dancing, to be honest, if I'm going to see a music act. That's the absolute last thing on my list of things I want to see.

It's probably one of the least things, as are clothes but it's still A part of it and the effect is the entire package but of course, music is primary, like 80%, then everything else goes halves on the remaining 20.

[Sixes]

Yo-Yo Ma called and asked why he's not included in the conversation about greatest living musicians.

So did John Cale.

And Glen Branca.

And.......

[Iron MikeyJ]

Yo-Yo Ma called and asked why he's not included in the conversation about greatest living musicians.

So did John Cale.

And Glen Branca.

And.......

Because for one, it's my list. I said in my opinion. For 2 how many songs has he written again that has resonated with the public? People forget that the WHOLE fucking point of music is to entertain the audience. Yo Yo Ma is talented as shit, no arguement there, but outside of a few, very small amount of music snobs nobody gives two shits about him or his music. If you are so great, then write something that really moves people. I hate that fucking elitist snob mentallity. We are here to entertain you, thats it, bottom line. If you expect more tha that than you are in the looking in the wrong place my friend.

@Lenny, you could make the arguement that James Brown has indirectly influenced people, because guys like MJ were influenced by him. So I suppose his influenece is still being felt. But my point is that MJ is a direct influence over the poeple I mentioned, even more so than James Brown. Now I'm sure Bruno was influenced by JB, but I donnt see his influence in Timberlake and the others, not directly anyways. But yes indirectly through guys like MJ.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Mike420

[Sixes]

So Yo Yo Ma's music doesn't move people?

You speak da bullshit out yo mouth my friend, opinion or not.

It does not matter whether an artist affects 1 or 1000000 people.

The whole point of music is to entertain the audience? What audience? 1 or 100000000000000000? It makes no difference the number.