In Defense Of Chinese Democracy

[Rovim]

Yes, but copy/paste isn't all that descriptive, and it certainly doesn't warrant saying that the guitar parts ended up being unrecognizable to the guitarist. We don't know how it worked, really, so to say we do betrays our need to fabricate bullshit to support our bias.

I agree, it's not descriptive enough. We don't know much, but going by what we do know, there is a good chance at least some of the solos were copy/pasted.

We know of at least a few Robin solos that were not copy/pasted.

I can only guess that it was both and Axl copy/pasted some solos, but others were fully created by Robin and Bucket.

If he had no problem doing it for Catcher with a guitar player like May, I think that means there is a chance he used this ability in the studio again and it was also one of the things that shaped how Chinese sounds.

[magisme]

Of course I'm not saying he didn't copy/paste. Listen to the album. It often sounds terrible because of just that. But copy/paste does not mean he completely dismantled and rearranged their guitar work. Does copy/paste mean microseconds of various guitar work thrown together? Does it mean copy/pasting 10 seconds of guitar work? 20? 30? We don't know.

Regardless, I know what you guys want to hear. Axl's guitar solo on TWAT is really fuckin' good. I'm so glad he wrote and recorded it.

[niceguy]

rovim - i'm not Ronnie thal - but I know in my gut robin's and bucket's chidem solos were not copy and pasted - listen to better, sod, twat, itw, catcher, til, and prostitute and tell me they are copy and pasted

With modern software, you'd be surprised just how much audio can be manipulated.

[Damn_Smooth]

Of course I'm not saying he didn't copy/paste. Listen to the album. It often sounds terrible because of just that. But copy/paste does not mean he completely dismantled and rearranged their guitar work. Does copy/paste mean microseconds of various guitar work thrown together? Does it mean copy/pasting 10 seconds of guitar work? 20? 30? We don't know.

Regardless, I know what you guys want to hear. Axl's guitar solo on TWAT is really fuckin' good. I'm so glad he wrote and recorded it.

See, I knew you had it in you to give credit where it's due.

[Rovim]

Of course I'm not saying he didn't copy/paste. Listen to the album. It often sounds terrible because of just that. But copy/paste does not mean he completely dismantled and rearranged their guitar work. Does copy/paste mean microseconds of various guitar work thrown together? Does it mean copy/pasting 10 seconds of guitar work? 20? 30? We don't know.

Regardless, I know what you guys want to hear. Axl's guitar solo on TWAT is really fuckin' good. I'm so glad he wrote and recorded it.

Nah, I agree, we don't know which specific solos were copy/pasted by Axl if at all, and to what extent.

But... someone who recorded on the album says 90% of it was manipulated to some extent by Axl. Doesn't mean entire sections of every solo, but we know he has the ability to do that if he wants to and Axl likes pro tools and has control issues as an artist as well.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Rovim

[Bards]

rovim - i'm not Ronnie thal - but I know in my gut robin's and bucket's chidem solos were not copy and pasted - listen to better, sod, twat, itw, catcher, til, and prostitute and tell me they are copy and pasted

The problem with listening to your gut is that sometimes the gut has shit for brains.

[magisme]

Of course I'm not saying he didn't copy/paste. Listen to the album. It often sounds terrible because of just that. But copy/paste does not mean he completely dismantled and rearranged their guitar work. Does copy/paste mean microseconds of various guitar work thrown together? Does it mean copy/pasting 10 seconds of guitar work? 20? 30? We don't know.

Regardless, I know what you guys want to hear. Axl's guitar solo on TWAT is really fuckin' good. I'm so glad he wrote and recorded it.

Nah, I agree, we don't know which specific solos were copy/pasted by Axl if at all, and to what extent.

But... someone who recorded on the album says 90% of it was manipulated to some extent by Axl. Doesn't mean entire sections of every solo, but we know he has the ability to do that if he wants to and Axl likes pro tools and has control issues as an artist as well.

I think Axl was more concerned with the important parts of the album, like fart and elephant sounds, and Chinese people talking.

[Rovim]

Of course I'm not saying he didn't copy/paste. Listen to the album. It often sounds terrible because of just that. But copy/paste does not mean he completely dismantled and rearranged their guitar work. Does copy/paste mean microseconds of various guitar work thrown together? Does it mean copy/pasting 10 seconds of guitar work? 20? 30? We don't know.

Regardless, I know what you guys want to hear. Axl's guitar solo on TWAT is really fuckin' good. I'm so glad he wrote and recorded it.

Nah, I agree, we don't know which specific solos were copy/pasted by Axl if at all, and to what extent.

But... someone who recorded on the album says 90% of it was manipulated to some extent by Axl. Doesn't mean entire sections of every solo, but we know he has the ability to do that if he wants to and Axl likes pro tools and has control issues as an artist as well.

I think Axl was more concerned with the important parts of the album, like fart and elephant sounds, and Chinese people talking.

I think he obsessed over every note that is on there and tried everything he could in the studio to achieve his artistic vision. He probably brought out the best in Robin and Bucket in some way. I hope we get to hear the second half of the project soon.

[Damn_Smooth]

Of course I'm not saying he didn't copy/paste. Listen to the album. It often sounds terrible because of just that. But copy/paste does not mean he completely dismantled and rearranged their guitar work. Does copy/paste mean microseconds of various guitar work thrown together? Does it mean copy/pasting 10 seconds of guitar work? 20? 30? We don't know.

Regardless, I know what you guys want to hear. Axl's guitar solo on TWAT is really fuckin' good. I'm so glad he wrote and recorded it.

Nah, I agree, we don't know which specific solos were copy/pasted by Axl if at all, and to what extent.

But... someone who recorded on the album says 90% of it was manipulated to some extent by Axl. Doesn't mean entire sections of every solo, but we know he has the ability to do that if he wants to and Axl likes pro tools and has control issues as an artist as well.

I think Axl was more concerned with the important parts of the album, like fart and elephant sounds, and Chinese people talking.

That was from 2004-2008. After he'd already done his guitar parts.

[downzy]

Can I get some quotes from Bucket and/or Finck saying that any of their great parts on CD were unrecognizable to them, please?

Can I get some quotes from Bucket or Finck saying that they recognize all their great parts on CD, please?

That's ridiculous on every level. I can't believe you wrote it, actually.

Never mind, you guys. I get it. An unreleased demo of a song that had a solo from a guy who's not even on the album had its solo made unrecognizable to the guitarist, so that gives us license to say that was done with all of Bucket and Finck's work. Flawless logic.

But that's not what we're saying. The guitar solos on Chinese were copy/pasted to some degree by Axl and Caram, to various degrees. Most of it was put together in the studio and manipulated by Axl.

Not just because he did it on the demo, but cause Bumble said 90% of the guitar solos on the album were copy/pasted.

If that's the case, Axl and Caram get an arrangement credit, and not necessarily a songwriter credit (speaking strictly about guitar solos/parts).

Mixing/editing ≠ songwriting. If that were the case, Kanye should be considered one of the greatest songwriters of all time.

[Rovim]

But that's not what we're saying. The guitar solos on Chinese were copy/pasted to some degree by Axl and Caram, to various degrees. Most of it was put together in the studio and manipulated by Axl.

Not just because he did it on the demo, but cause Bumble said 90% of the guitar solos on the album were copy/pasted.

If that's the case, Axl and Caram get an arrangement credit, and not necessarily a songwriter credit (speaking strictly about guitar solos/parts).

Mixing/editing ≠ songwriting. If that were the case, Kanye should be considered one of the greatest songwriters of all time.

What? but do you first get what is the case though? the case is Axl had a part in the creative process of putting together guitar solos for Chinese. At least some of them, and at least to some extent.

That's all I'm saying. They had something to do with it, cannot be denied. Something like the Catcher demo solo wouldn't exist without Axl and his engineer, even though May is still responsible for the initial idea.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Rovim

[Damn_Smooth]

Can I get some quotes from Bucket and/or Finck saying that any of their great parts on CD were unrecognizable to them, please?

Can I get some quotes from Bucket or Finck saying that they recognize all their great parts on CD, please?

That's ridiculous on every level. I can't believe you wrote it, actually.

Never mind, you guys. I get it. An unreleased demo of a song that had a solo from a guy who's not even on the album had its solo made unrecognizable to the guitarist, so that gives us license to say that was done with all of Bucket and Finck's work. Flawless logic.

But that's not what we're saying. The guitar solos on Chinese were copy/pasted to some degree by Axl and Caram, to various degrees. Most of it was put together in the studio and manipulated by Axl.

Not just because he did it on the demo, but cause Bumble said 90% of the guitar solos on the album were copy/pasted.

If that's the case, Axl and Caram get an arrangement credit, and not necessarily a songwriter credit (speaking strictly about guitar solos/parts).

Mixing/editing ≠ songwriting. If that were the case, Kanye should be considered one of the greatest songwriters of all time.

Caram did nothing besides show Axl how to work the controls. CD is a solo album.

[downzy]

But that's not what we're saying. The guitar solos on Chinese were copy/pasted to some degree by Axl and Caram, to various degrees. Most of it was put together in the studio and manipulated by Axl.

Not just because he did it on the demo, but cause Bumble said 90% of the guitar solos on the album were copy/pasted.

If that's the case, Axl and Caram get an arrangement credit, and not necessarily a songwriter credit (speaking strictly about guitar solos/parts).

Mixing/editing ≠ songwriting. If that were the case, Kanye should be considered one of the greatest songwriters of all time.

What? but do you first get what is the case though? the case is Axl had a part in the creative process of putting together guitar solos for Chinese. At least some of them, and at least to some extent.

That's all I'm saying. They had something to do with it, cannot be denied. Something like the Catcher demo solo wouldn't exist without Axl and his engineer, even though May is still responsible for the initial idea.

You're attributing things to Axl that may or may not have been. Simply splicing certain contributions from one guitarist to the next for one particular solo is more akin to what a DJ (no, not Ashba) does when it comes to mixing songs. Unless Axl was picking up the guitar himself or digitally altering a guitar melody by adding or subtracting notes/strums, I'm not sure I agree with your analysis. TWAT is a good example of where Robin and Bucket put down the foundation for the solo, and Axl added Bumblefoot's contribution by splicing it in. Again, if we're strictly speaking from an instrumental perspective, I'm not sure how much credit Axl gets from a creative perspective. It's why there are such things as producer and mixing credits on an album. It sounds to me that you're conflating the notions of producing, songwriting, and mixing.

If that's the case, Axl and Caram get an arrangement credit, and not necessarily a songwriter credit (speaking strictly about guitar solos/parts).

Mixing/editing ≠ songwriting. If that were the case, Kanye should be considered one of the greatest songwriters of all time.

Caram did nothing besides show Axl how to work the controls. CD is a solo album.

Yeah, and Yoko Ono wrote Imagine.

[Damn_Smooth]

But that's not what we're saying. The guitar solos on Chinese were copy/pasted to some degree by Axl and Caram, to various degrees. Most of it was put together in the studio and manipulated by Axl.

Not just because he did it on the demo, but cause Bumble said 90% of the guitar solos on the album were copy/pasted.

If that's the case, Axl and Caram get an arrangement credit, and not necessarily a songwriter credit (speaking strictly about guitar solos/parts).

Mixing/editing ≠ songwriting. If that were the case, Kanye should be considered one of the greatest songwriters of all time.

What? but do you first get what is the case though? the case is Axl had a part in the creative process of putting together guitar solos for Chinese. At least some of them, and at least to some extent.

That's all I'm saying. They had something to do with it, cannot be denied. Something like the Catcher demo solo wouldn't exist without Axl and his engineer, even though May is still responsible for the initial idea.

You're attributing things to Axl that may or may not have been. Simply splicing certain contributions from one guitarist to the next for one particular solo is more akin to what a DJ (no, not Ashba) does when it comes to mixing songs. Unless Axl was picking up the guitar himself or digitally altering a guitar melody by adding or subtracting notes/strums, I'm not sure I agree with your analysis. TWAT is a good example of where Robin and Bucket put down the foundation for the solo, and Axl added Bumblefoot's contribution by splicing it in. Again, if we're strictly speaking from an instrumental perspective, I'm not sure how much credit Axl gets from a creative perspective. It's why there are such things as producer and mixing credits on an album. It sounds to me that you're conflating the notions of producing, songwriting, and mixing.

If that's the case, Axl and Caram get an arrangement credit, and not necessarily a songwriter credit (speaking strictly about guitar solos/parts).

Mixing/editing ≠ songwriting. If that were the case, Kanye should be considered one of the greatest songwriters of all time.

Caram did nothing besides show Axl how to work the controls. CD is a solo album.

Yeah, and Yoko Ono wrote Imagine.

Must be why it was such a shitty song.

[Mr. Dude]

I mean when its all said and done it really merits comparison to The Wall, Physical Graffiti, Queen II, and Everybody's Rockin. As it stands now its undoubtedly the last true blue, real deal rock n roll masterpiece. Aliens will be fascinated by this shit someday.

[Sixes]

I mean when its all said and done it really merits comparison to The Wall, Physical Graffiti, Queen II, and Everybody's Rockin. As it stands now its undoubtedly the last true blue, real deal rock n roll masterpiece. Aliens will be fascinated by this shit someday.

Aliens will be fascinated by it but not understand it because of all the layers

You know because Axl Rose is a musical genius and composes layers

[maynard]

I mean when its all said and done it really merits comparison to The Wall, Physical Graffiti, Queen II, and Everybody's Rockin. As it stands now its undoubtedly the last true blue, real deal rock n roll masterpiece. Aliens will be fascinated by this shit someday.

Aliens will be fascinated by it but not understand it because of all the layers

You know because Axl Rose is a musical genius and composes layers

There's always a new layer of stupid synth farts to discover every time. That's why I love the record.

[RussTCB]

Aliens will be fascinated by it but not understand it because of all the layers

You know because Axl Rose is a musical genius and composes layers

There's always a new layer of stupid synth farts to discover every time. That's why I love the record.

I used to be guilty of the "so much complex" argument and I do think it holds up for a few tracks on the record. I think tracks like There Was A Time and Better are complex in their own way. On the other hand, I think tracks like CitR, IRS & Prostitute are just a mess. I like 2 out of 3 of those tracks, but I still think they're a mess.

[maynard]

I agree there are lots of layers and stuff. Problem is they are useless and boring most of the time. Like trying really hard to be like Trent Reznor.

[majormayhem]

I have been pulling for Axl for a long time. The more I listen to their back catalogue, the more I realize how much they sucked. They had some good songs, mind you. I wouldn't even consider myself a fan anymore.

Most of the melodies on CD are awful, his voice is awful, with the exception of a few moments. The only thing that saves it is the over production.

You're awful. Chinese is a good album. Better, Twat, Street Of Dreams, Catcher and more are all quality tunes and hopefully we'll get to hear more music on that caliber from Axl in the future.

Quit fooling yourself, man.

The opening mickey mouse vocal on Chinese democracy really just sets the listener up for an hour of clutching the nearest thing, like their ears, or the oh shit handle in the car when you're going to fast around a corner. What is "a Chinese stew" anyway? What the fuck is that!? Better has that horrible disco intro. Half the album is a conglomeration of disco/hip hop with Axl's awful vocals, and it doesn't work. Catcher and Twat are the best examples of what I'm talking about. The rest of it is lacking something, and think that something is heart. We won't hear anymore from this band because there isn't anything to hear. When Axl's friends talk about all the material he has, how good it is, they're just being nice.

Edited March 24, 2015 by majormayhem

[Silent Jay]

Aliens will be fascinated by it but not understand it because of all the layers

You know because Axl Rose is a musical genius and composes layers

There's always a new layer of stupid synth farts to discover every time. That's why I love the record.

I used to be guilty of the "so much complex" argument and I do think it holds up for a few tracks on the record. I think tracks like There Was A Time and Better are complex in their own way. On the other hand, I think tracks like CitR, IRS & Prostitute are just a mess. I like 2 out of 3 of those tracks, but I still think they're a mess.

Those songs suck, but in a beautiful kind of way.

[Ragnar]

Chinese is n`t complex it`s rather a basic Rock record with boatlaod of layers on top of basic songs I like most of the album but complex it is n`t. Trent Reznor can entertain himself he has n`t made anything noteworthy since " With Teeth ". It`s almost comical that his fans think he is a genius.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Dark Knight

[maynard]

Chinese is n`t complex it`s rather a basic Rock record with boatlaod of layers on top of basic songs I like most of the album but complex it is n`t. Trent Reznor can entertain himself he has n`t made anything noteworthy since " With Teeth ". It`s almost comical that his fans think he is a genius.

Dude won an Oscar. But whatever.

[Sixes]

Chinese is n`t complex it`s rather a basic Rock record with boatlaod of layers on top of basic songs I like most of the album but complex it is n`t. Trent Reznor can entertain himself he has n`t made anything noteworthy since " With Teeth ". It`s almost comical that his fans think he is a genius.

Dude won an Oscar. But whatever.

If The World should have been nominated for an Oscar but it goes to show that the Academy is also in cahoots with the rest of the world against Axl

[Ragnar]

Chinese is n`t complex it`s rather a basic Rock record with boatlaod of layers on top of basic songs I like most of the album but complex it is n`t. Trent Reznor can entertain himself he has n`t made anything noteworthy since " With Teeth ". It`s almost comical that his fans think he is a genius.

Dude won an Oscar. But whatever.

He can win ten Oscars all I care I don`t like his later output. I`m talking strictly about Nine Inch Nails not his soundtrack work which is good. Maybe if I had specified it would be clearer.