Malaysian passenger plane crashes in Ukraine

[magisme]

For real question: What is the evidence that the rebels did it? What is the evidence that Russia was complicit? What's troubling is how every side goes on autopilot to retrofit a narrative. Never mind, though. Everyone is certain. Carry on.

[Dazey]

For real question: What is the evidence that the rebels did it? What is the evidence that Russia was complicit? What's troubling is how every side goes on autopilot to retrofit a narrative. Never mind, though. Everyone is certain. Carry on.

US satellite imagery supposedly shows the missile launch I heard.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25923-us-satellite-may-have-located-ukraine-missile-launch.html

Edited July 22, 2014 by Dazey

[magisme]

For real question: What is the evidence that the rebels did it? What is the evidence that Russia was complicit? What's troubling is how every side goes on autopilot to retrofit a narrative. Never mind, though. Everyone is certain. Carry on.

US satellite imagery supposedly shows the missile launch I heard.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25923-us-satellite-may-have-located-ukraine-missile-launch.html

Sounds airtight.

[Dazey]

For real question: What is the evidence that the rebels did it? What is the evidence that Russia was complicit? What's troubling is how every side goes on autopilot to retrofit a narrative. Never mind, though. Everyone is certain. Carry on.

US satellite imagery supposedly shows the missile launch I heard.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25923-us-satellite-may-have-located-ukraine-missile-launch.html

Sounds airtight.

See also: Russia bad, Putin a meany.

If I was Ukranian I'd be watching a lot of Rocky 4 quite frankly.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Dazey

[magisme]

For real question: What is the evidence that the rebels did it? What is the evidence that Russia was complicit? What's troubling is how every side goes on autopilot to retrofit a narrative. Never mind, though. Everyone is certain. Carry on.

US satellite imagery supposedly shows the missile launch I heard.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25923-us-satellite-may-have-located-ukraine-missile-launch.html

Sounds airtight.

See also: Russia bad, Putin a meany.

If I was Ukranian I'd be watching a lot of Rocky 4 quite frankly.

And before someone has a panic attack about their own lack of knowledge and calls me a conspiracy theorist, let me state that I have no horse in this race really. Political leadership of all countries involved sucks balls. That said, I'll follow convincing and accumulated evidence as it arises. Knee jerk certainty to mask confusion isn't my jam.

[netcat]

i think they gonna publish the sattelite pictures at some point?

also US Intelligence analysts confirmed the authenticity of the audio of separatists bragging about shooting down the plane

also there is plenty of evidence of separatists moving objects, taking the bodies and black boxes in and out of the crime scene during the last 4 days...

im willing to put 2+2 together

Edited July 22, 2014 by netcat

[magisme]

i think they gonna publish the sattelite pictures at some point?

also US Intelligence analysts confirmed the authenticity of the audio of separatists bragging about shooting down the plane

also there is plenty of evidence of separatists moving objects, taking the bodies and black boxes in and out during the last 4 days...

im willing to put 2+2 together

We'll see. It would be nice if the US released some actual evidence.

When it comes to politics and "intelligence," I'll never put 2 + 2 together. Those people literally lie for a living. If it's 4, they'd better fuckin' show me 4.

[Guest Gunns]

Good to see Obama finally make a resounding statement in regards to Putin.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Gunns

[netcat]

as i understand it, many countries have satellite imagery, not only the US.

so i believe it would be just a little bit awkward to lie about it

[magisme]

as i understand it, many countries have satellite imagery, not only the US.

so i believe it would be just a little bit awkward to lie about it

No problem then. As soon as a few of them release definitive satellite imagery that identifies the rebels as the culprits, I'll believe them. Not holding my breath, though.

As for Russia's complicity? Or is that just about arming them and supporting them? Because if that's the criteria then we all have a lot to talk about.

[netcat]

as i understand it, many countries have satellite imagery, not only the US.

so i believe it would be just a little bit awkward to lie about it

No problem then. As soon as a few of them release definitive satellite imagery that identifies the rebels as the culprits, I'll believe them. Not holding my breath, though.

As for Russia's complicity? Or is that just about arming them and supporting them? Because if that's the criteria then we all have a lot to talk about.

im sorry i didn't get it. you say that if the Buk was given to the separatists by Russia, it doesn't make Russia their partner in crime?

i disagree

also

Vitaly Nayda, Ukraine's director of informational security, made the accusation in an interview with CNN. The person was "absolutely" a Russian, he said. "A Russian-trained, well-equipped, well-educated officer ... pushed that button deliberately.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/22/world/europe/ukraine-malaysia-airlines-crash/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

every sane military expert will tell you that Buk can't be operated by drunken separatists, it requires 4 or 5 specialists who have been trained for years

[magisme]

Of course it makes Russia their partner in crime, but if we were to condemn countries based on their training and arming shady characters that do horrific things (which I think we should, but we don't, that's my point, that's not the way the world works except for in convenient and hypocritical moments), then everyone is on the hook, the US first and foremost.

[netcat]

i see your point.

but as it was already mentioned in this thread, no other illegal armed group in the world ever possessed the weapons capable of shooting down a passenger plane.

Hamas doesn't have Buks. well, yet.

this is a very bad precedent.

and of course i hope my country will get political dividends out of it

[magisme]

no other illegal armed group in the world ever possessed the weapons capable of shooting down a passenger plane.

I'm not saying you're wrong - I'd have to look into it - but that gets my bullshit antennae up.

[DieselDaisy]

I believe they are Russian soldiers who have merely removed their insignia and went over the border. I was reading a military analyst and he said that there is no way seperatists could own, and have the expertise to fire that system.

[Lio]

At first I thought it couldn't have been the Russians, because I figured they wouldn't be so stupid to blow up a passenger plane, and when I heard about the BUK, it seemed clear that stupid rebels had shot the plane by accident. But if it isn't that easy to operate the system... well, I don't know, it couldn't have been ignorant monkeys either who shot the plane, could it ?

I hear a Belgian plane will fly the black boxes from Kiev to the UK for analysis. All will be well.

[netcat]

i have very little doubts tha British expertise will show Putin did it, as it was already declared by Cameron and Daily Mail

magisme won't believe it

Edited July 22, 2014 by netcat

[magisme]

i have very little doubts tha British expertise will show Putin did it, as it was already declared by Cameron and Daily Mail

magisme won't believe it

Fuck off. I'm a reasonable guy. If they show he did it instead of just saying he did it, I'll believe it.

[Dazey]

No other illegal armed group in the world ever possessed the weapons capable of shooting down a passenger plane.

Well there's Israel.............

*hides*

[Lio]

i have very little doubts tha British expertise will show Putin did it, as it was already declared by Cameron and Daily Mail

magisme won't believe it

It's just difficult to believe anyone. There's propaganda everywhere, in this story, but also in the news coverage about the Middle East, or just in local politics. It's so frustrating being manipulated and lied to on a daily basis, and it's very hard to discover what the truth is, because we have to rely on what 'they' tell us or on what they show us. Then it's up to us to choose who we believe (or not).

[Ace Nova]

This entire scenario comes down to logic and history.

Historically, the U.S. and the West go through a painstaking and extremely expensive process to avoid the loss of innocent life during times of war. No one is perfect and yes, at times, there have been unintended casualties but the vast majority of the time, civilian casualties are held to a minimum.

On the other hand, historically, rebel groups/terrorists could care less about who they target...some go as far as intentionally targeting civilians. So from a purely logical and historical perspective, there's an overwhelming probability that this plane was shot down by rebels.

No conspiracy, just common sense.

[magisme]

I love you, KK, but you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Ace Nova]

I love you, KK, but you have no idea what you're talking about.

So in your opinion, the U.S. and the West are more likely to target civilians than rebels or terrorists are?

[magisme]

I love you, KK, but you have no idea what you're talking about.

So in your opinion, the U.S. and the West are more likely to target civilians than rebels or terrorists are?

No.

You generalize way too much regarding very complex situations. And comparing fighting tactics of a superpower to those of rebel groups and so-called "terrorists" is beyond ridiculous. Not to mention the devastation the US military has brought to civilian population after civilian population. If you want to talk scale, which would be just as ridiculous as what you're posing, it's not even close. US slaughters, maims and oppresses more than anyone. You want to get into groups the US supports and what they do too? No, you don't.

[Ace Nova]

I love you, KK, but you have no idea what you're talking about.

So in your opinion, the U.S. and the West are more likely to target civilians than rebels or terrorists are?

No.

You generalize way too much regarding very complex situations. And comparing fighting tactics of a superpower to those of rebel groups and so-called "terrorists" is beyond ridiculous. Not to mention the devastation the US military has brought to civilian population after civilian population. If you want to talk scale, which would be just as ridiculous as what you're posing, it's not even close. US slaughters, maims and oppresses more than anyone. You want to get into groups the US supports and what they do too? No, you don't.

You're missing my entire point. My point stated that the evidence (historically) would be against rebels shooting this plane down. As historically, they're much more likely to do such a thing than a Western backed ally would be. So the burden of proof would be on them to somehow prove (or at least bring evidence) showing that they didn't do it.

And as far as innocent civilians in times of war goes, other than secluded cases, the U.S. doesn't "slaughter" or "maim" anyone. The U.S. spends more money than all other countries combined on smart weapon technology in order to avoid the loss of innocent human life.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Kasanova King