Malaysian passenger plane crashes in Ukraine

[November_rain]

And while they are bitching about whose fault it is, there are still some bodies spread all over the place and a bunch of families waiting for their beloved ones to be treated decently.

[Ace Nova]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/22/u-s-intelligence-separatists-not-russians-fired-the-missile-at-mh17.html

The US has zero credibility on the issue. Whatever this "impartial" and international investigation is gonna be, let's get on that, people. Let's not yellow cake or Colin Powell vial of baking soda this bitch.

Mags, likewise, you know I luv ya but for sanity's sake, let's not compare anything from this situation to an administration that has been out of power for close to 7 years now and had one of the worst foreign policies in the history of the U.S.

[Mysteron]

In the big scheme of things, the world and it's terrorists have seen this happen. They are going to want to buy whatever did this, and there are people that will want to sell them. They are no more than glorified tanks at the end of the day.

I am glad I lived in my era because things are about to a become alot more interesting in the next few decades. I can see a gap then a bout of these things happening many times in a few years. I guess you counteract this in the short term by flying higher which is the space flight technology, which has to happen soon.

It is all odd

[Ace Nova]

Published on Jun 18, 2014

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKKoKmUtQXE

Terrible things are happening. For example, an incident that happened recently: passenger plane was flying by, and Ukrainian attack aircraft hid behind it. Then he lowered his altitude a bit and dropped bombs on residential sector of Semenovka town. Then he regained the altitude and hid behind the passenger plane again. Then he left.

They wanted to provoke the militia to shoot at the passenger plane. There would be a global catastrophe. Civilians would have died.

Then they would say that terrorists here did it. There are no terrorists here. There are regular people here that came out in defense of their own city.

So when analysts start to put gaping holes in all your other conspiracy theories, you finally acknowledge it was most likely the rebels that shot the plane down...BUT...they did it to defend their city.

Nice one.

[foghat43]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/22/u-s-intelligence-separatists-not-russians-fired-the-missile-at-mh17.html

The US has zero credibility on the issue. Whatever this "impartial" and international investigation is gonna be, let's get on that, people. Let's not yellow cake or Colin Powell vial of baking soda this bitch.

Mags, likewise, you know I luv ya but for sanity's sake, let's not compare anything from this situation to an administration that has been out of power for close to 7 years now and had one of the worst foreign policies in the history of the U.S.

Yeah, like the Obama administration is any more trustworthy/credible than the Bush administration...don't think so.

[magisme]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/22/u-s-intelligence-separatists-not-russians-fired-the-missile-at-mh17.html

The US has zero credibility on the issue. Whatever this "impartial" and international investigation is gonna be, let's get on that, people. Let's not yellow cake or Colin Powell vial of baking soda this bitch.

Mags, likewise, you know I luv ya but for sanity's sake, let's not compare anything from this situation to an administration that has been out of power for close to 7 years now and had one of the worst foreign policies in the history of the U.S.

Those were just a couple obvious examples. Want me to make a list? Want me to focus exclusively on the "most transparent administration ever"? Please.

[downzy]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/22/u-s-intelligence-separatists-not-russians-fired-the-missile-at-mh17.html

The US has zero credibility on the issue. Whatever this "impartial" and international investigation is gonna be, let's get on that, people. Let's not yellow cake or Colin Powell vial of baking soda this bitch.

Mags, likewise, you know I luv ya but for sanity's sake, let's not compare anything from this situation to an administration that has been out of power for close to 7 years now and had one of the worst foreign policies in the history of the U.S.

Those were just a couple obvious examples. Want me to make a list? Want me to focus exclusively on the "most transparent administration ever"? Please.

Well KK does have a point. To view the foreign policy and conduct of one administration with another as equivalent is doing a disservice to the discussion. Last time I checked, the Obama administration has yet to invade a country under false pretences (and by invade, I think you know what I mean - drone strikes in Pakistan don't cut it). Sure, there are valid critiques of the current administration, but nothing to the level of malfeasance that existed in the previous administration.

Edited July 24, 2014 by downzy

[Bumblefeet]

And this is why opinionated journalism fails every time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92kG2tMBR40

Edited July 24, 2014 by Bumblefeet

[YOUCOULDBEMINE.]

What bothers me the most is how everthing on Facebook (in the Netherlands) is about the crash and respect and blablabla.
Most people weren't even paying their respects yesterday. They were there so they can brag about it on Facebook or Instagram or whatever. It sickens me how many 'selfies' were made yesterday when the victims of the crash returned.

Cut the crap, if it were a plane with different nationalities the Netherlands wouldn't have cared, at all. Fucking sensation seekers.

What happened was terrible, for sure. But don't turn it in a nationwide event. Geez.

[magisme]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/22/u-s-intelligence-separatists-not-russians-fired-the-missile-at-mh17.html

The US has zero credibility on the issue. Whatever this "impartial" and international investigation is gonna be, let's get on that, people. Let's not yellow cake or Colin Powell vial of baking soda this bitch.

Mags, likewise, you know I luv ya but for sanity's sake, let's not compare anything from this situation to an administration that has been out of power for close to 7 years now and had one of the worst foreign policies in the history of the U.S.

Those were just a couple obvious examples. Want me to make a list? Want me to focus exclusively on the "most transparent administration ever"? Please.

Well KK does have a point. To view the foreign policy and conduct of one administration with another as equivalent is doing a disservice to the discussion. Last time I checked, the Obama administration has yet to invade a country under false pretences (and by invade, I think you know what I mean - drone strikes in Pakistan don't cut it). Sure, there are valid critiques of the current administration, but nothing to the level of malfeasance that existed in the previous administration.

The Obama administration has nothing to be proud of as far as honesty and transparency. They haven't done the same things as the previous administration, but their track record speaks for itself. Besides, I don't put a whole lot of emphasis on different administrations. Shades of the same color. And besides that, my point was regarding perception more than reality. All that shit is still in the world's mind when the US speaks about foreign affairs. Rightfully so, imo.

[downzy]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/22/u-s-intelligence-separatists-not-russians-fired-the-missile-at-mh17.html

The US has zero credibility on the issue. Whatever this "impartial" and international investigation is gonna be, let's get on that, people. Let's not yellow cake or Colin Powell vial of baking soda this bitch.

Mags, likewise, you know I luv ya but for sanity's sake, let's not compare anything from this situation to an administration that has been out of power for close to 7 years now and had one of the worst foreign policies in the history of the U.S.

Those were just a couple obvious examples. Want me to make a list? Want me to focus exclusively on the "most transparent administration ever"? Please.

Well KK does have a point. To view the foreign policy and conduct of one administration with another as equivalent is doing a disservice to the discussion. Last time I checked, the Obama administration has yet to invade a country under false pretences (and by invade, I think you know what I mean - drone strikes in Pakistan don't cut it). Sure, there are valid critiques of the current administration, but nothing to the level of malfeasance that existed in the previous administration.

The Obama administration has nothing to be proud of as far as honesty and transparency. They haven't done the same things as the previous administration, but their track record speaks for itself. Besides, I don't put a whole lot of emphasis on different administrations. Shades of the same color. And besides that, my point was regarding perception more than reality. All that shit is still in the world's mind when the US speaks about foreign affairs. Rightfully so, imo.

Not to hijack the thread, but I'm curious how the Obama's track record speaks for itself? Like I said, there are various issues one could take with this administration (i.e massaging the message around Benghazi, Obama's response to the 2009 coup in Honduras, the administration's continual, though muted, support of Israeli actions in Palestine, the continuation and escalation of W. Bush's drone policy). But nothing in the current administration's track record elevates itself to the wholesale fabrication of evidence as perpetrated by the previous administration.

If W. Bush was still President, then it would only be fitting that one would question the intelligence given for implicating pro-Russian rebels. But unless you can find me an example of the current administration fabricating evidence to justify its foreign policy objectives than I think it's somewhat unjustified to lump the two administrations together.

And I don't see anywhere in your previous posts where your insinuation concerned global perception versus your own opinion on the matter. Sorry if I missed that point.

[magisme]

Nothing elevates it quite to that level. I said they haven't done the same things. But it has been a rather seamless continuation. That's the main point. And that's what much of the world sees. All the hope and change that Obama built his candidacies on was complete bullshit. His slogan should have been "stay the course."

My statement about "credibility" was meant in general, not just imo. That's where I was thinking global perception and how it's no good for the US to just say, "Hey, look, this is what our intelligence tells us. Believe it or fuck off."

[downzy]

Nothing elevates it quite to that level. I said they haven't done the same things. But it has been a rather seamless continuation. That's the main point. And that's what much of the world sees. All the hope and change that Obama built his candidacies on was complete bullshit. His slogan should have been "stay the course."

My statement about "credibility" was meant in general, not just imo. That's where I was thinking global perception and how it's no good for the US to just say, "Hey, look, this is what our intelligence tells us. Believe it or fuck off."

Well, I beg to differ on whether Obama's presidency is simply a continuation of his predecessors (I know, no big surprise there), but we'll leave that for another thread. For now, I'll acknowledge that the current administrations doesn't have many foreign policy wins (other than, say, taking out Osama bin Laden), but there is a discernible difference between how W. Bush approached American challenges abroad and how Obama has conducted foreign policy (save for, again, the U.S. drone policy).

So the question then becomes, who are you likely to believe in this case: Russia or the U.S? And this is my point, despite the U.S.'s problems with intelligence accuracy in the previous administration, when it comes to who's account best explains the reasons for the crash, I'm still going to go with the U.S.'s account over Russia's.

[magisme]

Nothing elevates it quite to that level. I said they haven't done the same things. But it has been a rather seamless continuation. That's the main point. And that's what much of the world sees. All the hope and change that Obama built his candidacies on was complete bullshit. His slogan should have been "stay the course."

My statement about "credibility" was meant in general, not just imo. That's where I was thinking global perception and how it's no good for the US to just say, "Hey, look, this is what our intelligence tells us. Believe it or fuck off."

Well, I beg to differ on whether Obama's presidency is simply a continuation of his predecessors (I know, no big surprise there), but we'll leave that for another thread. For now, I'll acknowledge that the current administrations doesn't have many foreign policy wins (other than, say, taking out Osama bin Laden), but there is a discernible difference between how W. Bush approached American challenges abroad and how Obama has conducted foreign policy (save for, again, the U.S. drone policy).

So the question then becomes, who are you likely to believe in this case: Russia or the U.S? And this is my point, despite the U.S.'s problems with intelligence accuracy in the previous administration, when it comes to who's account best explains the reasons for the crash, I'm still going to go with the U.S.'s account over Russia's.

I'm likely to believe no one until I see evidence that convinces me, and definitely no one once they begin to narrativize it and make it about good vs. evil and freedom vs. tyranny and all that shit. Both sides, that is. It should tell us enough already that we've simplified the whole thing into two sides, but that's another discussion.

All that said, I'm more likely to believe the American factual account, before moralizing starts, and even though I don't feel good about it.

[Lithium]

cats n'pigeons

And lizards.

[Ace Nova]

cats n'pigeons

Seriously?

That makes zero sense.

[magisme]

cats n'pigeons

Seriously?

That makes zero sense.

I don't even know what I'm supposed to be seeing.

[MB.]

I have seen another picture saying the opposite. The news here is, the way the plane exploded has every sign of a missile. And most likely shot by rebels.

[RandallFlagg]

Never rule out a false flag.

I agree with the guy who said those constant #prayfor shit or water cooler discussions where after the vague sentiments supplied by the news companies are ended, the usual topics begin in earnest and civilized life where you haven't just been crushed to smithereens in the narrow confines of a passenger jet, resumes until the next tragedy to break the ice. I know there's nothing deliberately malicious or ill-bearing about it but the fleeting nature of a disaster unless it affects you directly is a hugely disturbing thing.

[downzy]

one plane mh-17 has a window below the bottom left corner of the flag, the other mh-370 does not, neither does the wreckage in the photo.

Ever heard of photoshop? It's all the rage today with assholes who like to make shit up.

From the Colbert Report:

"There are a lot of conspiracy theories in Russia as to what actually happened with this plane. What are some of the crazier ones?" -- Stephen Colbert

"My favorite is that Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 is actually Malaysia Airlines 370, which -- as we know -- disappeared over the Indian Ocean four months ago. What actually happened was it didn't fall down into the Indian Ocean. The Americans took it. They killed everyone on board, they drained them of their blood, and then they took it -- the plane and all the corpses -- to a military base, an American military base. Then they shuttled it over to Holland [and] rigged it with explosives. It's very simple. And then, because take-off is a complicated procedure, they couldn't do that on autopilot, so they had live pilots doing this, doing the take-off. Then they parachute out -- first they put it on autopilot, then they parachute out. Then the plane explodes when necessary over eastern Ukraine." -- Julia Ioffe, Senior Editor at The New Republic

[grouse]

So I just read that the Netherlands are gonna send special forces over and everybody who was on leave has been recalled. This could get ugly real fast. No way putin is going to just sit back and let that happen.

[netcat]

just 40 people, if i got that right. Putin couldn't care less

in other news

(Reuters) - A powerful Ukrainian rebel leader has confirmed that pro-Russian separatists had an anti-aircraft missile of the type Washington says was used to shoot down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 and it could have originated in Russia.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/23/us-ukraine-crisis-commander-exclusive-idUSKBN0FS1V920140723

[Lio]

Here's what the independent Russian paper Novaja Gazeta put on its cover:

(It says 'Forgive us, Netherlands'.)

[shades]

I'm likely to believe no one until I see evidence that convinces me, and definitely no one once they begin to narrativize it and make it about good vs. evil and freedom vs. tyranny and all that

good approach in this case.

Some people would believe Obama even if he told them he found a way to get back the billions of dollars he wasted on green energy initiatives.

The current American administration is inept at best. And just as Corrupt and secretive as' any administration ever, at the least.

Lets not forget their tiptoeing into Libya under the pretense of humanity, no boots on the ground, and then assassinating their leader. Nothing to see here.

I highly doubt there is any reason to not believe pro Russian imbeciles accidently shot down the aircraft. It certainly looks that way.

The sad picture on American policy is we suddenly have no standing in the free world to lead the effort to punish this negligence.

Obama has made the US a laughing stock both foreign and domestic. And anyone still backing his presidency in any way is either stubborn or clueless.

November is right around the corner, if the GOP can take the Senate then Hillary will fade away with her fat ass between her legs and the D'i'mocrats will be left with no plan B. And the world may once again get served notice that acts like shooting a passenger jet out of the sky will NOT be tolerated, when adults are in charge in the USA.

Edited July 25, 2014 by shades

[DieselDaisy]

So I just read that the Netherlands are gonna send special forces over and everybody who was on leave has been recalled. This could get ugly real fast. No way putin is going to just sit back and let that happen.

Are they going to be carrying some good weed for the journey?