Game of Thrones Season 7 Discussion Thread *NO Spoilers*

[downzy]

14 hours ago, Georgy Zhukov said:

I don't get why Dany gets advised against burning the Red Keep. She won't be burning the city. Just the Red Keep. Kill Cersei and be done with it.

I would assume there would be a lot of collateral damage.  The dragons have been likened to nuclear weapons in the world of Westoros.  

Plus the logic seems to be that pulling up to King's Landing with three dragons, even if they don't kill half the city, wouldn't endear Danny to a frightened and brainwashed citizenry.  

But it would seem the option of using Westoros troops doesn't seem to be on the table anymore.  

[Georgy Zhukov]

7 minutes ago, downzy said:

I would assume there would be a lot of collateral damage.  The dragons have been likened to nuclear weapons in the world of Westoros.  

Plus the logic seems to be that pulling up to King's Landing with three dragons, even if they don't kill half the city, wouldn't endear Danny to a frightened and brainwashed citizenry.  

But it would seem the option of using Westoros troops doesn't seem to be on the table anymore.  

 

What they need is to transition to a capitalist system. Maybe the Iron Bank will take over Westeroes? Eventually they will transition to Communism. Varys will work on the Manifesto. 

[AtariLegend]

11 minutes ago, downzy said:

are we really going to nitpick about how Arya became the warrior she's become

Yes, because a story can't abandon it's own rules within in it's own context.

12 minutes ago, downzy said:

 I assume she spent a year or two training on stealth/face changing/fighting matters - isn't that enough explanation?  

No, because we just seen those two years in the show and not once tell the faceless men teach her how to change her face (the show left this part out, because they obviously didn't want another actress playing Arya Stark for a time). I don't remember the sword fighting either, in fact Arya like she does in the books hides her sword needle under rocks so no one can find it.

You can't change the rules of a world 3/4's of the way through the story, just for convenience.

[Georgy Zhukov]

Maybe we'll get some flash backs where Arya trained with Jackie Chan

[downzy]

55 minutes ago, AtariLegend said:

Yes, because a story can't abandon it's own rules within in it's own context.

No, because we just seen those two years in the show and not once tell the faceless men teach her how to change her face (the show left this part out, because they obviously didn't want another actress playing Arya Stark for a time). I don't remember the sword fighting either, in fact Arya like she does in the books hides her sword needle under rocks so no one can find it.

You can't change the rules of a world 3/4's of the way through the story, just for convenience.

What do you mean by changing the rules?  There are no rules changed, just you not satisfied with how the show has explained her transformation.  

Actually, you might be interested to read this take on Arya's transformation: https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/08/game-of-thrones-arya-brienne-fight-season-7-episode-4-spoils-of-war

As for how to change her face, that's probably not something that can be explained other than, well, it just happens to those who study at the House of Black and White.  Does the show ever explain how burning Danny with dragon eggs produces dragons?  No.  We just accept and move on.  To get hung up on the trivial I think misses the point.  

 

[downzy]

Also, is it not possible that Tyrion caught a ride with Danny and Drogon to the battle?  In a previous episode he's proven that he's an ally to the dragons (though not Drogon).  Perhaps in the next episode they'll show him hoping on with Danny.  Had they shown him getting dropped off beforehand it would have ruined Danny and Drogon's entrance and given away the element of surprise to the viewer.  Kind of logistical folly that while problematic best serves setting up the scene.  Just a thought.

[Daedalus]

4 hours ago, downzy said:

For me, the fourth episode was one of the best of the series. The battle that involved Jamie, Tyrion, and Danny was majestic and surreal from both a technical and narrative standpoint. Having Tyrion there to witness the battle between his new queen and his brother, regardless of how he got there, did the job of representing the conflict I would assume most viewers felt watching two important and well followed characters go at each other.  

From a technical standpoint I was in awe of the look and feel of the battle. The lighting was stunning, looking like a painting from the renaissance period. I read that this episode broke the record for the number of stuntman simultaneously on fire for a television production. Both the cinematography and and direction were some of the best executed in the series. It's an episode I will need to watch several times to fully appreciate it. And that's not to neglect the reunion of the Stark siblings and the confrontation between Jon and Theon.  I'm not sure how one focuses on the episode's few logistical shortcomings and doesn't revel in how great this hour of television was. But again, that's just my opinion.  

The battle scene is really impressive! A lot of great shots - for example, the very beginning when you just hear a Dothraki horde coming and then Drogon flies above them. I just watched how they filmed it and I must say, great job.

 

And not just this battle, also Hardhome and Battle of bastards were really well filmed. Great picture, great sound, intense scenes... just amazing.

[Deb Rose]

5 hours ago, ChineseDemocracy2004 said:

IIRC there was a character in series one who "helped" her understand certain things before she got with Drogo.

Yes, but they were fully clothed. In the books, not so much. Not at all, actually. 

[AtariLegend]

1 hour ago, downzy said:

Does the show ever explain how burning Danny with dragon eggs produces dragons?  No.  We just accept and move on.  

Yes, it requires a blood sacrifice/magic. Drogo/Miri were burned on the pyre with the Dragon eggs.

1 hour ago, downzy said:

Also, is it not possible that Tyrion caught a ride with Danny and Drogon to the battle?  

I don't think that happened and I assumed the explanation the sho would have used, is that Tyrion would have been on horse. fyi Highgarden is on the other side of the continent and Dragonstone is in Blackwater Bay.

The Reach is one of the most prosperous of the seven kingdoms and the Tyrells that the show pretended weren't good at fighting last week, were the reasons the Lannisters won the battle of Black Water Bay in season 2. They have a very large army in both show/books, but they randomly forget the previous seasons last week. 

1 last thing;

Loras Tyrell in the books = one of the best fighters in the seven kingdoms.

Loras Tyrell in the show = a overly sensitive gay lord obsessed with getting cock and male grooming. Who's character arc goes no where.

Edited August 8, 2017 by AtariLegend

[downzy]

18 minutes ago, AtariLegend said:

Yes, it requires a blood sacrifice/magic. Drogo/Miri were burned on the pyre with the Dragon eggs.

I don't recall this explanation provided in the show. I could be wrong, but could you not be getting this from the books?

[Nosaj Thing]

1 hour ago, downzy said:

As for how to change her face, that's probably not something that can be explained other than, well, it just happens to those who study at the House of Black and White.  Does the show ever explain how burning Danny with dragon eggs produces dragons?  No.  We just accept and move on.  To get hung up on the trivial I think misses the point. 

Word.

[Jane M.]

Drogon

My Queen is maaaaad and I'm loving it. 

Best episode ever and my favorite season yet. 

Dickon😂😂😂😂😂

[Georgy Zhukov]

I hope we get to see Jon put it between Dany's mammaries. In the book she was taught about the values of using other parts of her body to please men. I am not making this up. 

[Dan H.]

5 hours ago, downzy said:

Also, is it not possible that Tyrion caught a ride with Danny and Drogon to the battle? 

Absolutely not, unless its shown and explained, as its been established that touching a dragon and mounting it are too very very different things.

The show has bad writing. Its not a huge deal, the production and direction carries most of the weight in the show, and thats fine. Ep4 was a great episode, but not nearly as thrilling as Hardhome, Bastards, or Blackwater which had excellent build up and earned their battle scenes.

This one was fine, but sloppily written. And like I said earlier in this thread, they simply do not have enough time to write the ending properly. I can't think of any writer would could pull off so much in so little time.

[Georgy Zhukov]

The writers were probably told just to get to the good stuff. So they skip a lot of walking, a lot of sailing and all that. We are left to assume the Dothraki traveled there and some time passed. That or Westeroes shrunk in size.

[AtariLegend]

34 minutes ago, Georgy Zhukov said:

The writers were probably told just to get to the good stuff. So they skip a lot of walking, a lot of sailing and all that. We are left to assume the Dothraki traveled there and some time passed. That or Westeroes shrunk in size.

Spoiler

Wait till episode 6 and you'll see how small Westros has got.

 

[downzy]

5 hours ago, Dan H. said:

Absolutely not, unless its shown and explained, as its been established that touching a dragon and mounting it are too very very different things.

The show has bad writing. Its not a huge deal, the production and direction carries most of the weight in the show, and thats fine. Ep4 was a great episode, but not nearly as thrilling as Hardhome, Bastards, or Blackwater which had excellent build up and earned their battle scenes.

This one was fine, but sloppily written. And like I said earlier in this thread, they simply do not have enough time to write the ending properly. I can't think of any writer would could pull off so much in so little time.

The show has always had issues with geographical distances. It took three or four episodes for the main characters to get from Winterfell to Kings Landing in season one but Arya does most of the distance in one episode when she hears about Jon back at home. 

I would disagree with the suggestion that previous battles were better.  For me, I enjoyed the battle in Spoils of War more so than the battle of Blackwater. 

[Dan H.]

Did you think it was better than Hardhome? The writers introduced a female wildling side character and gave her an arc and tragic death all in one scene (perhaps the best writing the show has had ever IMO), while adding convincing horror and a tangible sense of doom and painful death. Plus CGI and choreography that was just as good as S7E4.

When the avalanche comes down the mountains and you hear the wildlings screaming on the other side of the gate and then... silence. That scene may be in my top 5 of any TV show

Edited August 9, 2017 by Dan H.

[downzy]

43 minutes ago, Dan H. said:

Did you think it was better than Hardhome? The writers introduced a female wildling side character and gave her an arc and tragic death all in one scene (perhaps the best writing the show has had ever IMO), while adding convincing horror and a tangible sense of doom and painful death. Plus CGI and choreography that was just as good as S7E4.

When the avalanche comes down the mountains and you hear the wildlings screaming on the other side of the gate and then... silence. That scene may be in my top 5 of any TV show

I did love the battle in Hardhome, but I think I still enjoyed Spoils of War more. There is the dynamic of favourable characters going at it that's relatively new to the show. Too often it's one side against another with a clear cut preference provided for the viewer. That isn't the case with Danny versus Jamie in the Spoils of War.   Hardhome was great, but there's no internal conflict for the viewer in regards to who they are cheering for. That's why I'm willing to give a pass to having Tyrion present even if geographically it's a bit of a stretch to have him there. This dynamic present in the last episode doesn't necessarily make the scene better, but just different and unique that few entertainment properties are able to deliver.  And while Hardhome sent shivers down the spine and a severe sense of dread when the Nightking doubled his army through raised hands at the end the scene, seeing Drogon light shit up and cause utter devastation almost brought me off my seat.  It was a glorious payoff of five years of waiting to see what these dragons can do on a battlefield. I personally didn't have that same level of investment in the white walkers or the Nightking's army (though Hardhome dramatically elevated my anticipation of what is likely to come in the final season).

I understand you're speaking more from a writing, narrative perspective, but from a technical perspective I don't think Spoils of War has an equal.  The pacing and direction were relentless, with reprieve finally provided when Jamie found himself saved by Bronn and sinking in the water.  As someone who has a side business in photography, I'm always amazed at the lighting achieved in television and film products (I try to use them as inspiration and guidance). But I don't think I've ever seen anything lit so beautifully as those few seconds of Jamie on his horse contemplating taking a run at Danny (from Tyrion's perspective).  I found the battle in the last episode much more visually striking than the more monochromatic ice battle of Hardhome. 

Again, I loved what Hardhome did in terms of raising the stakes, but it wasn't the same payoff for me personally as I got from what Spoils of War brought.  

[downzy]

Excuse the typos as I'm using my phone and not great with a mobile keyboard. 

[-Jaro-]

13 hours ago, downzy said:

I don't recall this explanation provided in the show. I could be wrong, but could you not be getting this from the books?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o7T6qI6G-Q

[downzy]

4 hours ago, -Jaro- said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o7T6qI6G-Q

Nothing in that clip can be interpreted as an explanation of how the process works.  

Look, the point still stands that there are a lot of weird shit that happens in this show that most viewers just accept and don't need a full explanation.  We know that Bran became the Three Eye Raven, but other than hanging out with his predecessor, we still don't know how that process works.  We don't know how people are brought back from the dead other than through the power of prayer (but for some reasons, it only works on certain people).  Hell, how does a dragon generate fire in its mouth?  Finding rhyme or reason in the this world has always been a stretch.  Mystical elements have a big role in Westoros but somehow some want take issue with how Arya becomes adept at changing faces (despite the fact that she spends a year or more at the House of Black and White).  It makes no sense to accept some of the show's mysticism but rejecting others.

[Dan H.]

29 minutes ago, downzy said:

Nothing in that clip can be interpreted as an explanation of how the process works.  

Look, the point still stands that there are a lot of weird shit that happens in this show that most viewers just accept and don't need a full explanation.  We know that Bran became the Three Eye Raven, but other than hanging out with his predecessor, we still don't know how that process works.  We don't know how people are brought back from the dead other than through the power of prayer (but for some reasons, it only works on certain people).  Hell, how does a dragon generate fire in its mouth?  Finding rhyme or reason in the this world has always been a stretch.  Mystical elements have a big role in Westoros but somehow some want take issue with how Arya becomes adept at changing faces (despite the fact that she spends a year or more at the House of Black and White).  It makes no sense to accept some of the show's mysticism but rejecting others.

I think people are mad about the House of Black and White because the whole storyline is nonsense. It doesn't bother me too terribly that we don't see the process of the mask making (although would it really have been that hard to throw the audience a bone during that grone worthy sideplot?).

I suspect the Many Faced God has some kind of connection to Mel's Red God, and there may still be time to shove in some exposition around it. All we know right now is that there is very little straight up magic in Westeros. Most if not all of it are these so called Gods (the WW "Old Gods" who are mysterious and scary and Mel's Red God who has some sort of dominion and accountability for the dragons, wildfire, shadow demon, etc) working through prophets and priests.

I dunno. All I know for sure is that plotline was incredibly disappointing, and I never got the sense that Arya really learned anything, or that the literally two people living in that giant temple had any kind of motivation or purpose. I still don't understand why Jaqcen or whatever was at Harrenhal in S2. Plenty of people to sacrifice in Braavos.

[downzy]

13 minutes ago, Dan H. said:

I think people are mad about the House of Black and White because the whole storyline is nonsense. It doesn't bother me too terribly that we don't see the process of the mask making (although would it really have been that hard to throw the audience a bone during that grone worthy sideplot?).

I suspect the Many Faced God has some kind of connection to Mel's Red God, and there may still be time to shove in some exposition around it. All we know right now is that there is very little straight up magic in Westeros. Most if not all of it are these so called Gods (the WW "Old Gods" who are mysterious and scary and Mel's Red God who has some sort of dominion and accountability for the dragons, wildfire, shadow demon, etc) working through prophets and priests.

I dunno. All I know for sure is that plotline was incredibly disappointing, and I never got the sense that Arya really learned anything, or that the literally two people living in that giant temple had any kind of motivation or purpose. I still don't understand why Jaqcen or whatever was at Harrenhal in S2. Plenty of people to sacrifice in Braavos.

Yeah, I agree that they could have included a scene where Arya peeps on Jaqcen saying a little prayer or something when they throw on a new face.  But considering Arya was caught by Jaqcen using the faces from the vault (and then punished her by taking away her vision), it goes to reason that she either figured it out during her stay or was taught at some point.  It always struck me as something that was more of a state of mind kind of thing, less magic and more embracing of a Westoros version of existentialism.  

Again, I'm not saying that the show isn't without fault or has misstepped from time to time.  Arya's time at the House of Black and White could have been better.  But I don't think it's a critical fault nor prevents viewers from accepting where Ayra is now as a character.  

[Dan H.]

You're right it doesn't ruin Arya, but she's a fan favorite so people are more sensitive about her arc.

Using Brienne to demonstrate her badassery was efficient, and I can see why they did it. My only thing with Arya this season that is a little nitpicky is that there should have been a confrontation in the Ed Shireen scene, where we get a demomstration of Arya's skills even before she spars with Brienne to make it less jarring. Plus we'd see Ed Shireen die, and it would end the first episode with some light fan service.

Anyways, I'm eager to see where we go from here. For people who have read the spoilers only:

Next episode looks like its going to be filler and exposition to prep us for the Eastwatch Battle in E6. I wonder if they will show us how the Hound, Thoros, and Beric get imprisoned at Eastwatch, or if the writers will just teleport us there and the Brotherhood is already imprisoned. I just want E6 already, there hasn't been a bad WW scene yet.