No Holds Barred Thread - Post Anything That Is On Your Mind, Even the Politically Incorrect!

[Len Cnut]

[soon]

@Kasanova King as you know, your signature doesnt make any sense. Whats the new one? 

 

[Ace Nova]

Just now, soon said:

@Kasanova King as you know, your signature doesnt make any sense. Whats the new one? 

 

It makes sense to everyone except a guy with a screen name "soon".  

[Len Cnut]

9 hours ago, Kasanova King said:

It makes sense to everyone except a guy with a screen name "soon".  

It don't make sense to me, its fucking ridiculous   You can't be anti-western capitalism if you use an iphone, how does that make any sense?  So an Jihadi terrorist cell that uses an iphone to co-ordinate a terrorist attack and then end up doing their kamikaze shit and killing themselves and a fuckload of other people are showing a lack of commitment to their cause...cuz they used an iphone?   What that quote is essentially suggesting is that the only way you can take on by an anti capitalist stance whilst living in a capitalist country is by spontaeneously combust on the spot because, OK, you use a plate for dinner, that plate was made by Sorrell & Co who function under capitalism, right, bang, you can't use plates from now on.  Every meal you eat, every book you read, every piece of clothing you wear is produced in a capitalist society...so you gotta be a starving naked illiterate to be consistent to your point of view, nice one Jordie, he's certainly thought this one through

[Ace Nova]

1 hour ago, Len Cnut said:

It don't make sense to me, its fucking ridiculous   You can't be anti-western capitalism if you use an iphone, how does that make any sense?  So an Jihadi terrorist cell that uses an iphone to co-ordinate a terrorist attack and then end up doing their kamikaze shit and killing themselves and a fuckload of other people are showing a lack of commitment to their cause...cuz they used an iphone?   What that quote is essentially suggesting is that the only way you can take on by an anti capitalist stance whilst living in a capitalist country is by spontaeneously combust on the spot because, OK, you use a plate for dinner, that plate was made by Sorrell & Co who function under capitalism, right, bang, you can't use plates from now on.  Every meal you eat, every book you read, every piece of clothing you wear is produced in a capitalist society...so you gotta be a starving naked illiterate to be consistent to your point of view, nice one Jordie, he's certainly thought this one through

The Jihadist wouldn't be showing a lack of commitment...."they would be just deeply confused."

And yes, so would just about everyone else who thinks they're "anti-capitalist".  

The point is that most that think they are, really aren't.

Which I would say is spot on.

 

 

 

[Len Cnut]

11 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

The Jihadist wouldn't be showing a lack of commitment...."they would be just deeply confused."

And yes, so would just about everyone else who thinks they're "anti-capitalist".  

The point is that most that think they are, really aren't.

Which I would say is spot on.

Anti-capitalism is not a stance which dictates that any and every thing that comes about in a capital society is wholly and fundamentally evil, as a notion it functions on the basis that somewhere along the capitalist food chain it relies on a part or parties of demographic getting fucked over, it does not refute the idea that good functional products can be produced by capitalism or that said products, inanimate objects basically, become evil by association.

Tell me, in your estimation, how would a successful anti-capitalist work, how then can one actually become anti-capitalist?  Is it even possible according to your thinking?

[Ace Nova]

1 hour ago, Len Cnut said:

Anti-capitalism is not a stance which dictates that any and every thing that comes about in a capital society is wholly and fundamentally evil, as a notion it functions on the basis that somewhere along the capitalist food chain it relies on a part or parties of demographic getting fucked over, it does not refute the idea that good functional products can be produced by capitalism or that said products, inanimate objects basically, become evil by association.

Tell me, in your estimation, how would a successful anti-capitalist work, how then can one actually become anti-capitalist?  Is it even possible according to your thinking?

I don't think it's really possible to be completely "anti-capitalist".

There's a few that come close...folks that live off the grid, etc but that's about it.  And really they're not since they are living in a 'free market'...even as small or primitive as it could be.

 

And when I refer to capitalism I'm referring to "free market" economies/societies.

As far as safety nets, etc...I think they can be easily incorporated into free markets etc.

 

[Len Cnut]

14 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

I don't think it's really possible to be completely "anti-capitalist".

There's a few that come close...folks that live off the grid, etc but that's about it.  And really they're not since they are living in a 'free market'...even as small or primitive as it could be.

 

And when I refer to capitalism I'm referring to "free market" economies/societies.

As far as safety nets, etc...I think they can be easily incorporated into free markets etc.

 

So basically the only way you can be an anti-capitalist is to essentially ghettoize yourself?  Well some people don't want to settle for that, some people want a world where capitalism is not the governing economic ideology and to go about that one must actively engage in society in a functional to bring about those changes, that is not indicative of hypocrisy.  In fact that sort of rhetoric is actually kinda dangerous because what it leaves you with is very little options, one of them is to go live in a handmade tent living off the land and the trees and the other is radical militant action, like start firebombing.  Because as the comment implies you can't really live in this society within the parameters of and benefitting from what capitalism offers and consider yourself anti-capitalist.  I should be very careful before putting across those sorts of propositions.

[Ace Nova]

16 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

So basically the only way you can be an anti-capitalist is to essentially ghettoize yourself?  Well some people don't want to settle for that, some people want a world where capitalism is not the governing economic ideology and to go about that one must actively engage in society in a functional to bring about those changes, that is not indicative of hypocrisy.  In fact that sort of rhetoric is actually kinda dangerous because what it leaves you with is very little options, one of them is to go live in a handmade tent living off the land and the trees and the other is radical militant action, like start firebombing.  Because as the comment implies you can't really live in this society within the parameters of and benefitting from what capitalism offers and consider yourself anti-capitalist.  I should be very careful before putting across those sorts of propositions.

Some people can "want that"...and it's even been implemented.

North Korea is an authoritarian, socialist "government controlled" economy.

Still doesn't mean that their leader is not one of the biggest hypocrites in the world...as he lavishes in fortunes brought to him by the free market world around him, while his people suffer.

That's the hypocrisy in government controlled markets.  

They don't work. Never have worked and never will work.

 

[Len Cnut]

16 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

Some people can "want that"...and it's even been implemented.

North Korea is an authoritarian, socialist "government controlled" economy.

Still doesn't mean that their leader is not one of the biggest hypocrites in the world...as he lavishes in fortunes brought to him by the free market world around him, while his people suffer.

That's the hypocrisy in government controlled markets.  

They don't work. Never have worked and never will work.

 

What are you suggesting, that American anti capitalists fight to make it a North Korea-esque state?

[Ace Nova]

13 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

What are you suggesting, that American anti capitalists fight to make it a North Korea-esque state?

Ha. Probably not.

Do you think the people that supported the Bolsheviks wanted Russia to become what it eventually became?

 

[Len Cnut]

4 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

Ha. Probably not.

Do you think the people that supported the Bolsheviks wanted Russia to become what it eventually became?

 

I try not to comment about things that I don’t know about, sorry fella.

[soon]

Being anti-capitalist has nothing to do with not wanting things, its about being dissatisfied with how those things get into your hands.

The Jordan distortion is premised on the implied notion that it is the very existence of Capitalism itself that inspires the idea for a smart phone. That is false though. Human ingenuity in an industrialized society produces smart phones. Human ingenuity and industrialism exists independently of Capital.

Jordan doesnt now his ass from his face about these types of topics.  It's no different then saying that those whom oppose Marxist thought are hypocrites for taking sick days (given that workers rights in the industrialized markets were driven by the Marxist critique of industrialized capitalism). Its silly.

[Len Cnut]

17 minutes ago, soon said:

Being anti-capitalist has nothing to do with not wanting things, its about being dissatisfied with how those things get into your hands.

The Jordan distortion is premised on the implied notion that it is the very existence of Capitalism itself that inspires the idea for a smart phone. That is false though. Human ingenuity in an industrialized society produces smart phones. Human ingenuity and industrialism exists independently of Capital.

Jordan doesnt now his ass from his face about these types of topics.  It's no different then saying that those whom oppose Marxist thought are hypocrites for taking sick days (given that workers rights in the industrialized markets were driven by the Marxist critique of industrialized capitalism). Its silly.

I'm always terribly suspicious of these new kids on the block that inspire this 'fuck yeah' following based on spurious vagueisms and a percieved intellect that is often spurious and doesn't bear scrutiny.  They're often found selling glorified self help books backed up by distorted readings of various academia. 

Edited February 23, 2019 by Len Cnut

[Ace Nova]

10 minutes ago, soon said:

Being anti-capitalist has nothing to do with not wanting things, its about being dissatisfied with how those things get into your hands.

The Jordan distortion is premised on the implied notion that it is the very existence of Capitalism itself that inspires the idea for a smart phone. That is false though. Human ingenuity in an industrialized society produces smart phones. Human ingenuity and industrialism exists independently of Capital.

Jordan doesnt now his ass from his face about these types of topics.  It's no different then saying that those whom oppose Marxist thought are hypocrites for taking sick days (given that workers rights in the industrialized markets were driven by the Marxist critique of industrialized capitalism). Its silly

11 minutes ago, soon said:

Being anti-capitalist has nothing to do with not wanting things, its about being dissatisfied with how those things get into your hands.

The Jordan distortion is premised on the implied notion that it is the very existence of Capitalism itself that inspires the idea for a smart phone. That is false though. Human ingenuity in an industrialized society produces smart phones. Human ingenuity and industrialism exists independently of Capital.

Jordan doesnt now his ass from his face about these types of topics.  It's no different then saying that those whom oppose Marxist thought are hypocrites for taking sick days (given that workers rights in the industrialized markets were driven by the Marxist critique of industrialized capitalism). Its silly.

 

5 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

I'm always terribly suspicious of these new kids on the block that inspire this 'fuck yeah' following based on spurious vagueisms and a percieved intellect that is often spurious and doesn't bear scrutiny.  They're often found selling glorified self help books backed up by distorted readings of various academia.

 

Nah.  It's none of what you guys think really.  And for the folks that believe in free markets it's not as big of a deal to us as to the ones that "think" they oppose them in their own minds.  

I actually feel sorry for folks that don't get it.

But whatever.  

I think counter views/opinions are important in free thinking societies...even if I may not agree with them, etc.

 

 

[Len Cnut]

Quote

Nah.  It's none of what you guys think really.  And for the folks that believe in free markets it's not as big of a deal to us as to the ones that "think" they oppose them in their own minds.  

I don't have any opinion about any of it one way or the other, I was just challenging the false assertion of your sig.  I'm not informed enough to pontificate about the rest.

Quote

I actually feel sorry for folks that don't get it.

I didn't know you cared

[soon]

23 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

I think counter views/opinions are important in free thinking societies...even if I may not understand them, etc.

Fixed it for ya 

[Ace Nova]

10 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

I don't have any opinion about any of it one way or the other, I was just challenging the false assertion of your sig.  I'm not informed enough to pontificate about the rest.

I didn't know you cared

Len, was this you?

 

Joking btw.

 

But how do you and @soon feel about Ben Shapiro's response to the student?

 

[soon]

3 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

Len, was this you?

 

Joking btw.

 

But how do you and @soon feel about Ben Shapiro's response to the student?

 

Well, first of all I will point out that Socialists identity as Socialists where as Anti Capitalist is a term that arose out of a disenfranchisement with both State Socialism and Capitalism. Since then the term has also found use as an umbrella term for the many streams of opposition to Capital or the current structure of Capital. Its one of those All Socialists are anti-capitalism but not all Anti-Capitalists are Socialists type thing.

One product of Capitalism is resistance to Capitalism. 

[Ace Nova]

34 minutes ago, soon said:

Well, first of all I will point out that Socialists identity as Socialists where as Anti Capitalist is a term that arose out of a disenfranchisement with both State Socialism and Capitalism. Since then the term has also found use as an umbrella term for the many streams of opposition to Capital or the current structure of Capital. Its one of those All Socialists are anti-capitalism but not all Anti-Capitalists are Socialists type thing.

One product of Capitalism is resistance to Capitalism. 

I tend to agree with a lot of this which is why I think Peterson's statement makes sense.

He's basically saying the same thing you are saying here...but in a very tongue-in-cheek way.  That's all that was.

The amazing thing is if you were to get these so called "anti-capitalists" and "capitalists" in a room together, you would find them actually agreeing in many areas...and that their "disagreements" are mostly in "theory".

For example, do you believe in a 100% government controlled market?

 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2019 by Kasanova King

[soon]

34 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

I tend to agree with a lot of this which is why I think Peterson's statement makes sense.

He's basically saying the same thing you are saying here...but in a very tongue-in-cheek way.  That's all that was.

You may agree with me but Peterson doesn't. If you agree with me then he would consider you a 'cultural Marxist' and he'd be so upset that you'd get full on Kermit the Frog voice from Peterson. 

 

43 minutes ago, soon said:

One product of Capitalism is resistance to Capitalism. 

^^^ Heres what I said. First I wanna make sure we are using language in the same way. When I say resistance to Capitalism is a 'product' of capitalism I do not mean to reference how capitalism seeks to commodify resistance (Che T Shirts for an example). I mean to invoke the Marxist notion that accurately observes that all the motives to resist are built into the DNA of what Capitalism is. Okay, lets say that all of Capital is one conveyer belt production line. Coming down the conveyer belt is smart phones, potato chips, hats, concepts of happiness, concepts of fulfillment, concepts of the uses of leisure time, and the cold hard realities of the workers and the widows of workers who died on the job. So one can look at what capital is producing and observe - without any outside motives - that it is right and good to resist agsint the plight of both the worker and the consumer.

So this wold be were Petrsons distortion would disagree with me. He claims that one can't resist capitalism if they live in a capitalist marketplace. But Im saying that its impossible to live in such a setting because Capitalism produces resistance to itself.

I do hope that you agree with my earlier statement, though!! For your enjoyment comrade https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch01.htm#007 

44 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

The amazing thing is if you were to get these so called "anti-capitalists" and "capitalists" in a room together, you would find them actually agreeing in many areas...and that their "disagreements" are mostly in "theory".

Maybe on some things. Its hard work setting up collectives, cooperatives, barter networks, CSA's, social centres, annual events , etc. And mainstream consumerism doesnt include all this voluntary labour. Its a tough definition to, to identify workers who are in favour of capitalism as being "Capitalists" because thats not accurate. But I accept that its come into common use to phrase it that way. Those living contently in a Capitalist marketplace have a consumer identity that is passive whereas anti capitalists see the experience of being a consumer as an active state of being.

49 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

For example, do you believe in a 100% government controlled market?

We went over the last time I disproved your sig . Again, that would mean I am a Socialist/Commie. And even Cuba isnt a 100% "controlled" market. And to go back to my early point about Anti-Capitalism being different then Socialism, I know some old cranks from the Fifth International who will bang their fist on the table and yell at anti-capitlsits because they see them as destroying a unified front in walking away from Revolutionary Communism. "What does it even mean, these kids these days!?!?"(Peterson would agree with the revolutionary commies of the 5th )  So Anti-Capitalists sit in a awkward and far newer strain of resistance that is rooted in Marxist thought but not committed to all of its prescriptions.

All that said to answer your question about Government controlled markets, well... personally I think we need to take more control as a community. I also believe firmly in well regulated market which is for the foreseeable future provided for by the current structure of governance. For example, I choose to live in Co-Ops which means that I reject the gentry's ability to charge me above market rates (read: anti-capitalist). The markets rates are set by Canadian Mortgage and Housing Association. So we charge ourselves the true market rate, plus any agreed to overs to cover up-keep. So theres the blend of our collective controls of our living arrangement with the Bank Of Canadas numbers that are processed by CMHA. See, Anti-Capitalist, not anti-government, not anti-property. 

Or another example of how "control" plays out v Govt v market v consumers is Community Supported Agriculture (CSA) where a farmer and I agree to skip the grocer and deal directly with one another. Since farming has severe operating risks including things like draughts it can be cost prohibitive for small scale farmers to work using organic and bio dynamic methods. But we both desire for them to grow that way. So, I pay them upfront to fund their growing season. I share the risk with the farmer, which is what allows them to produce quality organic local foods outside of the Factory Farm economy. The farmer asks for a certain rate promising to try their best to give me a set amount of foods each week over the growing season. In sharing the risk, I might even get way more then was promised - I get an equal share of all thats produced! So I am living out a belief system that in this case has very little to do with the govt what so ever. Cut out the grocers, chemical industrial complex, shipping industry, factory farming - all of which are capitalist entities. Hence, Anti-Capitalist. Like, as I said to frame my point at the start: I still want the veggies. 

[Ace Nova]

8 minutes ago, soon said:

You may agree with me but Peterson doesn't. If you agree with me then he would consider you a 'cultural Marxist' and he'd be so upset that you'd get full on Kermit the Frog voice from Peterson. 

 

^^^ Heres what I said. First I wanna make sure we are using language in the same way. When I say resistance to Capitalism is a 'product' of capitalism I do not mean to reference how capitalism seeks to commodify resistance (Che T Shirts for an example). I mean to invoke the Marxist notion that accurately observes that all the motives to resist are built into the DNA of what Capitalism is. Okay, lets say that all of Capital is one conveyer belt production line. Coming down the conveyer belt is smart phones, potato chips, hats, concepts of happiness, concepts of fulfillment, concepts of the uses of leisure time, and the cold hard realities of the workers and the widows of workers who died on the job. So one can look at what capital is producing and observe - without any outside motives - that it is right and good to resist agsint the plight of both the worker and the consumer.

So this wold be were Petrsons distortion would disagree with me. He claims that one can't resist capitalism if they live in a capitalist marketplace. But Im saying that its impossible to live in such a setting because Capitalism produces resistance to itself.

I do hope that you agree with my earlier statement, though!! For your enjoyment comrade https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch01.htm#007 

Maybe on some things. Its hard work setting up collectives, cooperatives, barter networks, CSA's, social centres, annual events , etc. And mainstream consumerism doesnt include all this voluntary labour. Its a tough definition to, to identify workers who are in favour of capitalism as being "Capitalists" because thats not accurate. But I accept that its come into common use to phrase it that way. Those living contently in a Capitalist marketplace have a consumer identity that is passive whereas anti capitalists see the experience of being a consumer as an active state of being.

We went over the last time I disproved your sig . Again, that would mean I am a Socialist/Commie. And even Cuba isnt a 100% "controlled" market. And to go back to my early point about Anti-Capitalism being different then Socialism, I know some old cranks from the Fifth International who will bang their fist on the table and yell at anti-capitlsits because they see them as destroying a unified front in walking away from Revolutionary Communism. "What does it even mean, these kids these days!?!?"(Peterson would agree with the revolutionary commies of the 5th )  So Anti-Capitalists sit in a awkward and far newer strain of resistance that is rooted in Marxist thought but not committed to all of its prescriptions.

All that said to answer your question about Government controlled markets, well... personally I think we need to take more control as a community. I also believe firmly in well regulated market which is for the foreseeable future provided for by the current structure of governance. For example, I choose to live in Co-Ops which means that I reject the gentry's ability to charge me above market rates (read: anti-capitalist). The markets rates are set by Canadian Mortgage and Housing Association. So we charge ourselves the true market rate, plus any agreed to overs to cover up-keep. So theres the blend of our collective controls of our living arrangement with the Bank Of Canadas numbers that are processed by CMHA. See, Anti-Capitalist, not anti-government, not anti-property. 

Or another example of how "control" plays out v Govt v market v consumers is Community Supported Agriculture (CSA) where a farmer and I agree to skip the grocer and deal directly with one another. Since farming has severe operating risks including things like draughts it can be cost prohibitive for small scale farmers to work using organic and bio dynamic methods. But we both desire for them to grow that way. So, I pay them upfront to fund their growing season. I share the risk with the farmer, which is what allows them to produce quality organic local foods outside of the Factory Farm economy. The farmer asks for a certain rate promising to try their best to give me a set amount of foods each week over the growing season. In sharing the risk, I might even get way more then was promised - I get an equal share of all thats produced! So I am living out a belief system that in this case has very little to do with the govt what so ever. Cut out the grocers, chemical industrial complex, shipping industry, factory farming - all of which are capitalist entities. Hence, Anti-Capitalist. Like, as I said to frame my point at the start: I still want the veggies. 

Most of what you speak of here is not anti-capitalists at all.  And it's exactly what Peterson is saying in his quote.  Most of what you say can easily exist in harmony within a free market. (And it already does) ..where folks have a choice.

 

Looks like you agree with Peterson after all.

(It's also what Ben Shapiro was basically saying in that video.  So looks like you agree with him too)  

 

Edited February 23, 2019 by Kasanova King

[soon]

Just now, Kasanova King said:

Most of what you speak of here is not anti-capitalists at all.  And it's exactly what Peterson is saying in his quote.  Most of what you say can easily exist in harmony within a free market. (And it already does) ..where folks have a choice.

 

Looks like you agree with Peterson after all.

 

Nah. and I note the 8 minute turn around from me posting to you responding when theres clearly a lot in my last post. Peterson is laughable on these topics. I do not agree with him and I am now convinced you are very mistaken about the definition of an anti capitalist to begin with. So then throw in Petersons Distortion and theres not really any meat on the bone for reality based conversations 

[Ace Nova]

1 minute ago, soon said:

Nah. and I note the 8 minute turn around from me posting to you responding when theres clearly a lot in my last post. Peterson is laughable on these topics. I do not agree with him and I am now convinced you are very mistaken about the definition of an anti capitalist to begin with. So then throw in Petersons Distortion and theres not really any meat on the bone for reality based conversations 

When Peterson refers to capitalism he is referring to a free market society at the top.  Anything below that level (Co-ops, national healthcare, etc etc) is acceptable if people choose to go that route within the free market.

The Nordic system is a good example of how capitalism works with social safety nets.  The Nordic system is based on a free market. 

How do you feel about the Nordic system?

 

[soon]

7 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

When Peterson refers to capitalism he is referring to a free market society at the top.  Anything below that level (Co-ops, national healthcare, etc etc) is acceptable if people choose to go that route within the free market.

Peterson just doesnt understand the concept of Anti-Capitalism. Ive demonstrated that. Then you just say 'he's using it in his own way?' No, he needs to use its actual definition! 

Id rather not just move on offering you more content when you just sweep entire essays out of the way with blanket sentences that dont speak to the content of my posts. Seems fair, right?