Michael Jackson

[Iron MikeyJ]

Obviously I've never seen every amazingly talented people live or even on film (like guys like Mozart, etc). Having said that, I'm ok saying MJ is in the top 100 most talented people that have ever lived. So by that standard, he IS one of the most talented people to have ever lived imo. 

[Iron MikeyJ]

20 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Fans are prone to hyperbole though, I’m sure if they thought about it no one could be that fuckin’ stupid.

You'd be surprised.

[Crazyman]

Ironic that Mozart is being brought up in a Michael Jackson thread because he loved composers from that era through the early 1900's. I'm pretty sure he's said the Nutcracker Suite was his main inspiration. 

Also, obviously, I would hope that people realize comparing Michael Jackson, a modern day pop star, to a classical composer is a relative thing. History will tell us whether or not it's fair to say he was one of the most talented people. Not that I even need to mention it but it's not like Mozart was doing the fucking moonwalk while performing "Requiem" ( ). The innovation that Michael led to music, dance and "short films", as he liked to call them, hasn't been matched since and it's not for lack of trying.  

Speaking of HIStory: it has the best first 5 songs on any of his albums, save for Off The Wall. Even Thriller had that bullshit "The Girl Is Mine". I think it could've been as highly regarded as his other albums had he actually put his best songs on it instead of spreading it out for a remix album. Blood on the Dance Floor being the obvious one. 

This would've been a good replacement for Little Susie or Childhood too, for example:

 

Edited December 22, 2018 by Crazyman

[DieselDaisy]

8 hours ago, Crazyman said:

Not that I even need to mention it but it's not like Mozart was doing the fucking moonwalk while performing "Requiem" ( ).

Mozart adored dance and was an accomplished dancer. 

Quote

There was dancing, but I only danced four minuets, and by 11 I was back in my room; because with all those girls there, there was only one who could dance in time with the beat, and that was Mademoiselle Käser

You're also choosing something incongruous there with the Requiem. Mozart in fact wrote over 200 dances, minuets, German dances (Ländler), contredanses - not to mention marches, divertimento and other ''lighter'' works. 

[Iron MikeyJ]

3 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

Mozart adored dance and was an accomplished dancer. 

You're also choosing something incongruous there with the Requiem. Mozart in fact wrote over 200 dances, minuets, German dances (Ländler), contredanses - not to mention marches, divertimento and other ''lighter'' works. 

Crazymans post is EXACTLY why I said what I said. MANY people do indeed think MJ is on the Mozart type of level. 

Im just like "hold up here folks" you do realize MJ was singing songs about the ABC's or Mama Kissing Santa Clause when he was 12 while Mozart was performing musical pieces he WROTE, for kings and queens (and those pieces were more advanced than pieces written by adults)? Its NOT the same level. Nor is Billie Jean on the same level as Requiem and other pieces Mozart wrote. There ARE levels to this stuff. It's not that I'm ragging on MJ (I think he is great), just NOT the greatest most amazing human to have ever lived. That's where we disagree...

Edited December 22, 2018 by Iron MikeyJ

[Len Cnut]

3 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

Mozart adored dance and was an accomplished dancer. 

You're also choosing something incongruous there with the Requiem. Mozart in fact wrote over 200 dances, minuets, German dances (Ländler), contredanses - not to mention marches, divertimento and other ''lighter'' works. 

Which each one demostrating a melodic and harmonic complexity something a little more advanced than a 3 minute pop song and thats the key thing here.  I can't believe this shit needs explaining. 

[Iron MikeyJ]

3 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Which each one demostrating a melodic and harmonic complexity something a little more advanced than a 3 minute pop song and thats the key thing here.  I can't believe this shit needs explaining. 

Oh but it does... I say that as a fan of the guy, but his fanbase is delusional at worst, or misguided at least. That's why I cant do any MJ related types of forums (Towlies is probably like this as well, but maybe not). 

Here are a few of the things you MUST accept or you will get attacked by the fans:

MJ is the single most talented individual to ever live

MJ is the greatest entertainer of all time

HIStory is his best album (yes better than Thriller)

Invincible is an under appreciated master piece

The Girl is mine "ruined" Thriller, thanks Paul

Girlfriend "ruined" Off the Wall, again thanks Paul

Did I miss anything???

[DieselDaisy]

2 hours ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

Oh but it does... I say that as a fan of the guy, but his fanbase is delusional at worst, or misguided at least. That's why I cant do any MJ related types of forums (Towlies is probably like this as well, but maybe not). 

Here are a few of the things you MUST accept or you will get attacked by the fans:

MJ is the single most talented individual to ever live

MJ is the greatest entertainer of all time

HIStory is his best album (yes better than Thriller)

Invincible is an under appreciated master piece

The Girl is mine "ruined" Thriller, thanks Paul

Girlfriend "ruined" Off the Wall, again thanks Paul

Did I miss anything???

They have a point there in fairness.

 

[Iron MikeyJ]

1 hour ago, DieselDaisy said:

They have a point there in fairness.

 

I actually dont mind them tbh. Not my favs, no. But I dont think they are terrible. Say Say Say is CLEARLY the best of the 3, which that one ended up on Paul's album some how. I would "Say" (lol) that might be the last really good McCartney song period. After that... IDK, not my cup of tea I supposes. But I'm sure some like them.

[Crazyman]

Again folks, different mediums of entertainment. I never said MJ composed songs similar to Mozart for christ sake. Music grows and changes over 300 years. I much prefer "classical" music (a terrible term) to modern popular music. It's a relative comparison: both changed the scope of their art form(s) during the era in which they were alive. 

My point still stands: Mozart never did the moonwalk. 

Also Girlfriend and The Girl Is Mine are both terrible songs. That's a fact. Neither ruined the albums they were on, however. 

[Iron MikeyJ]

The girl is mine is an ok song. Not special, no, but not awful either. It gets stuck in my head sometimes. 

[Crazyman]

It's my least favorite on Thriller. Girlfriend is my least favorite on Off The Wall (I think the Wings version is better). Say, Say, Say is the best collaboration they've done, imo. 

Also I understand what you mean by MJ fans in general. You ever go to his subreddit, forums or on twitter? So many of them are delusional and remind me of North Korean citizens...they'll defend their fearless leader against anything

[DieselDaisy]

Elvis fans do that also. There is even a bit of that here with Axl fans - more so on other more ''sycophantic'' Guns fora in fairness. Beatles fans also. In actual fact Zeppelin fans are the worst from experience: they constantly say things like, ''Zeppelin are the greatest ever band ever ever ever and you cannot possibly disagree and if you do you're an idiot''. 

[Iron MikeyJ]

9 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Elvis fans do that also. There is even a bit of that here with Axl fans - more so on other more ''sycophantic'' Guns fora in fairness. Beatles fans also. In actual fact Zeppelin fans are the worst from experience: they constantly say things like, ''Zeppelin are the greatest ever band ever ever ever and you cannot possibly disagree and if you do you're an idiot''. 

But with Axl and Zeppelin its TRUE!!! If you disagree... You are an idiot!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

😉

[Iron MikeyJ]

3 hours ago, Crazyman said:

It's my least favorite on Thriller. Girlfriend is my least favorite on Off The Wall (I think the Wings version is better). Say, Say, Say is the best collaboration they've done, imo. 

Also I understand what you mean by MJ fans in general. You ever go to his subreddit, forums or on twitter? So many of them are delusional and remind me of North Korean citizens...they'll defend their fearless leader against anything

I've actually felt pity towards him the last handful of years. His life must have sucked, tbh. People see the fame and the money and think "that's the life for me." I see the pain, the alone, nobody that can tell you no, not being able to go for a walk, etc. I honestly wouldnt trade my life for their's for anything. Having special talent is amazing at first, but it seems like it eventually turns you into a prisoner. That's when you start seeing the erratic and strange behavior, and oh boy did MJ have that. 

His life is more of a tragedy than anything else imo.

Edited December 23, 2018 by Iron MikeyJ

[Crazyman]

2 hours ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

I've actually felt pity towards him the last handful of years. His life must have sucked, tbh. People see the fame and the money and think "that's the life for me." I see the pain, the alone, nobody that can tell you no, not being able to go for a walk, etc. I honestly wouldnt trade my life for their's for anything. Having special talent is amazing at first, but it seems like it eventually turns you into a prisoner. That's when you start seeing the erratic and strange behavior, and oh boy did MJ have that. 

His life is more of a tragedy than anything else imo.

Hey, something MJ-related we agree on! I definitely feel bad for him in the last few years, especially with some of the stuff I've been reading. His career was gone, his money was gone (and what he did have people were taking advantage of him), etc. The only thing that brought him happiness in the end, I've read, were his kids. 

It's crazy to think how quickly his downfall started while he was at the peak of his career during/after Thriller. The hair burning thing was the thing that got him onto drugs, the vitiligo diagnosis caused him to bleach his skin, his addiction to plastic surgery and reclusiveness/weird behavior in general started around that time. 

Neither one of us brought up his fucked up childhood, either. I wouldn't trade the millions he earned or that talent for the life he lived. 

[RussTCB]

On 12/21/2018 at 11:09 AM, Iron MikeyJ said:

...I would argue that Jordan and Tyson were far more entertaining (for me) to watch...

Your entire post boils down to the center of this one sentence.

It's all subjective, right? Each person has their own tastes so it's up to them to decide what they think is "the greatest" or not. 

[Len Cnut]

On 26/12/2018 at 3:58 PM, RussTCB said:

Your entire post boils down to the center of this one sentence.

It's all subjective, right? Each person has their own tastes so it's up to them to decide what they think is "the greatest" or not. 

No its not subjective, whether you like it or not is subjective, the musical and melodic complexities are not subjective, the historical influence and importance is not subjective, the idea that anybody could think any pop song, regardless of how good it is to them personally, is in any way comparable to Mozart or Beethoven is laughable.  And i dont even listen to that much classical music, pop music is my go to thing but I also have a little awareness of, for example, the complexties of Wagner over Michael Jackson, its absolutely ridiculous, the very best of prodigious talent that pop music has offered us in the 70 or so years it has been around are not comparable to the great classical composers, it is the difference between a pond and the ocean.  

Edited December 28, 2018 by Len Cnut

[RussTCB]

49 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

No its not subjective, whether you like it or not is subjective, the musical and melodic complexities are not subjective, the historical influence and importance is not subjective, the idea that anybody could think any pop song, regardless of how good it is to them personally, is in any way comparable to Mozart or Beethoven is laughable.  And i dont even listen to that much classical music, pop music is my go to thing but I also have a little awareness of, for example, the complexties of Wagner over Michael Jackson, its absolutely ridiculous, the very best of prodigious talent that pop music has offered us in the 70 or so years it has been around are not comparable to the great classical composers, it is the difference between a pond and the ocean.  

Everything concerning art is absolutely subject to personal taste. 

[Len Cnut]

28 minutes ago, RussTCB said:

Everything concerning art is absolutely subject to personal taste. 

No its not, not at all, thats absolutely lunacy, so the complexities of the craft involved in me drawing two stick men on a wall in pencil is equivalent to that of Van Goghs Sunflowers?   Thats about as a ridiculous a statement as I've heard, subjectivity can be related to ones perference, or ones interpretation of the meaning/value involved.  But in terms of the craft, the creation of it and the complexities therein Michaelangelos David is not equivalent to a lump of plasticine with eyeholes poked in it if I claim it to be an artistic representation.  With the greatest of respect Russ you might want to look into the subject at hand before making statements like that, they are just self evidently incorrect.  

[RussTCB]

21 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

No its not, not at all, thats absolutely lunacy, so the complexities of the craft involved in me drawing two stick men on a wall in pencil is equivalent to that of Van Goghs Sunflowers?   Thats about as a ridiculous a statement as I've heard, subjectivity can be related to ones perference, or ones interpretation of the meaning/value involved.  But in terms of the craft, the creation of it and the complexities therein Michaelangelos David is not equivalent to a lump of plasticine with eyeholes poked in it if I claim it to be an artistic representation.  With the greatest of respect Russ you might want to look into the subject at hand before making statements like that, they are just self evidently incorrect.  

I don't know what else to tell you. I've spent an enormous amount of my life on the apprecation of art. It's my own personal conclusion that all art is relative to personal taste. 

[Len Cnut]

Quote

It's my own personal conclusion that all art is relative to personal taste. 

If you cannot see the MASSIVE difference in complexity between something like, I dunno, the Ring Cycle compared to Michael Jackson songs honestly, you'd have to be deaf.  The entire point of pop music is that it is simple music constructed to enjoy oneself to, dance to, it has simple rhythms and melodies for this very reason, to say it is equal in scope and complexity to as what the classical composers were doing is...I dunno, madness, its like looking at a banana and seeing a rolling pin.  Taste and the complexity in the mechanics of what makes a given piece of music have literally nothing to do with each other.

Edited December 28, 2018 by Len Cnut

[RussTCB]

13 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

If you cannot see the MASSIVE difference in complexity between something like, I dunno, the Ring Cycle compared to Michael Jackson songs honestly, you'd have to be deaf.  The entire point of pop music is that it is simple music constructed to enjoy oneself to, dance to, it has simple rhythms and melodies for this very reason, to say it is equal in scope and complexity to as what the classical composers were doing is...I dunno, madness, its like looking at a banana and seeing a rolling pin.  Taste and the complexity in the mechanics of what makes a given piece of music have literally nothing to do with each other.

Complexity has nothing to do with whether or not I personally like something. 

[Len Cnut]

22 minutes ago, RussTCB said:

Complexity has nothing to do with whether or not I personally like something. 

I just said that earlier when I said...

Quote

...whether you like it or not is subjective..'

But you can't apply notions of subjectivity to complexities of music or the level of musical accomplishment, vision and knowledge that is required to create a piece of greater complexity or richness of musicality.  All of this stands in direct contradiction to your statement that...

Quote

Everything concerning art is absolutely subject to personal taste.

I wasn't talking about whether or not something is to your taste or enjoyed more by you personally, I'm talking about the difference between elementary and advanced.  And it is on that level alone that you simply cannot make a comparison between the two, men like Wagner, Mozart, Beethoven, unprecedented and unequalled levels of genius poured out of these men, no one has really been able to make comparable music before or since, forget just genius in the mechanics of it, the sheer amount of it that poured of them is amazing.  To say that these songs are equal because you like one better than the other is like saying a Prius is as powerful as a rocket ship just because you like Priuses, like ain't got shit to do it with it, at a certain point you're talking about objective facts, to sit Billy Jean on one side of the spectrum, what is basically a rudimentary pop song and then try to suggest that it is in somehow comparable to the works of Mozart is just mind-blowing.        

Fuck, I've listened to The Ramones a fuckload more than I've listened to Beethoven but I'd have to be some kind of moron to say that Beat on the Brat or Blitzkrieg Bop and equal pieces of work to Beethovens 9th, on any level, whether it be musical complexity, historical importance, influence or any other level except to say 'i like them better' especially when thats not being asked.  Personal taste is pithy, it differs from person to person, thats a granted...but a persons preference or lack of towards a certain thing has jack shit to do with one occupying a wholly different, greater, grander place in the position of music and musical history.  

And thats why I'm saying the comparison is ridiculous, its not a failing of Billie Jean or Smooth Criminal or Rock With Me that they are less complex, musically rich and reflective of a lower level of musical understanding and ability than Beethovens 9th, they're not trying to do what the other is trying to do...but ones still a two bedroom bungalow and the other is still an opulent palace of unbridled splendour, regardless of your preference or mine.

[RussTCB]

12 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

I just said that earlier when I said...

But you can't apply notions of subjectivity to complexities of music or the level of musical accomplishment, vision and knowledge that is required to create a piece of greater complexity or richness of musicality.  All of this stands in direct contradiction to your statement that...

I wasn't talking about whether or not something is to your taste or enjoyed more by you personally, I'm talking about the difference between elementary and advanced.  And it is on that level alone that you simply cannot make a comparison between the two, men like Wagner, Mozart, Beethoven, unprecedented and unequalled levels of genius poured out of these men, no one has really been able to make comparable music before or since, forget just genius in the mechanics of it, the sheer amount of it that poured of them is amazing.  To say that these songs are equal because you like one better than the other is like saying a Prius is as powerful as a rocket ship just because you like Priuses, like ain't got shit to do it with it, at a certain point you're talking about objective facts, to sit Billy Jean on one side of the spectrum, what is basically a rudimentary pop song and then try to suggest that it is in somehow comparable to the works of Mozart is just mind-blowing.        

Fuck, I've listened to The Ramones a fuckload more than I've listened to Beethoven but I'd have to be some kind of moron to say that Beat on the Brat or Blitzkrieg Bop and equal pieces of work to Beethovens 9th, on any level, whether it be musical complexity, historical importance, influence or any other level except to say 'i like them better' especially when thats not being asked.  Personal taste is pithy, it differs from person to person, thats a granted...but a persons preference or lack of towards a certain thing has jack shit to do with one occupying a wholly different, greater, grander place in the position of music and musical history.  

And thats why I'm saying the comparison is ridiculous, its not a failing of Billie Jean or Smooth Criminal or Rock With Me that they are less complex, musically rich and reflective of a lower level of musical understanding and ability than Beethovens 9th, they're not trying to do what the other is trying to do...but ones still a two bedroom bungalow and the other is still an opulent palace of unbridled splendour, regardless of your preference or mine.

Again, it's art which is subject to personal taste.