Were they actually the biggest band in their prime?

[Ace Nova]

35 minutes ago, Apollo said:

That's the question I was asking. 

 That's a tough transition though. I mostly agree with you. 

But maybe it's actually a deeper explanation. Appetite showed that kids wanted hard rock with substance. But kids/bands were still glamming it up in 88-89-90. 

I think it was more the pretencious and Axl's ego of the Illusions that led kids to go towards grunge. While you and I loved Estranged and November Rain type videos - there was nothing street and real about them. Spending millions of dollars on videos with dolphins.....there is nothing hardcore about that at all. 

Axl's ego turned a lot of people off. 

So I suppose I can agree that GnR helped pave the way from hair bands to grunge. In a good way (appetite) and a bad way (illusions). 

Though I'm sure grunge fans would laugh at the idea of gnr fans giving GnR fhe credit for starting grunge music. 

Although they were mainstream and commercialized, there was still a sense of reality and substance with November Rain and Estranged.  They dealt with real love, breakup and even depression...a far cry from 'unskinny bop' and ' cherry pie'.

 

I'm not saying G N R created grunge directly....but they did help change what mainstream considered 'cool'....which helped pave the way for grunge. 

 

Edited March 3, 2016 by Kasanova King

[tsinindy]

19 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

Although they were mainstream and commercialized, there was still a sense of reality and substance with November Rain and Estranged.  They dealt with real love, breakup and even depression...a far cry from 'unskinny bop' and ' cherry pie'.

 

I'm not saying G N R created grunge directly....but they did help change what mainstream considered 'cool'....which helped pave the way for grunge. 

 

Yes!  And they created a vacuum by killing the hair metal/glam popularity.   A vacuum filled by grunge.

[Nicklord]

I'm happy with responses in "my" thread  

I find it interesting that there aren't many people who like both grunge and gnr in USA (it seems like it) but in Serbia Kurt Cobain and Axl Rose (also gnr and grunge bands) are usually loved by the same type of people. 

[SlashElvisTCB]

Guns were amazing back in the day, everything they did as a band or on stage or on MTV or what have you made news, they were living legends and the fact that theres at least one Guns N' Roses cd on every 100cd juke box in the world to this day speaks volumes!. You can't go to any bar or any strip club without hearing a Guns song. In fact I should have broke it off with my ex as soon as she said she didn't like GNR...that was a sign.

Honestly Grunge's impact today is highly overrated by historians, history likes to say it was huge and bigger than GNR and Bigger than Rock, but it was in fact no more "huge" than All American Rejects, Bullet For My Valentine or Screamo in general is today to high schoolers & college kids, you had people who liked it and people who didn't, but far more people liked GNR and continue to, still to this day. Look at the record sales and compare Nirvana, Alice In Chains, Sound Garden & Pearl Jam to GNR, Metallica, AC/DC and even Pink Floyd or just compare Nirvana to GNR sales and case closed. You probably had parts of the country that liked it, but Rock still was in favor to the emo Grunge liberals from Seattle.

Edited March 3, 2016 by SlashElvisTCB

[dalsh327]

This was also going on in between AFD and UYI (it's repetitive but the raw footage with cops in riot gear is around 10 minutes)

 

[HuskerTornado]

9 hours ago, Kasanova King said:

Although they were mainstream and commercialized, there was still a sense of reality and substance with November Rain and Estranged.  They dealt with real love, breakup and even depression...a far cry from 'unskinny bop' and ' cherry pie'.

 

I'm not saying G N R created grunge directly....but they did help change what mainstream considered 'cool'....which helped pave the way for grunge. 

 

It's a shame about Warrant, they were actually a talented band, Jani Lane a great front man.  Cherry Pie should have never happened, but the record company wouldn't allow the album (then titled Uncle Tom's Cabin) to be released without a pop ballad.  As Jani would tell it, he wrote it tongue in cheek, but the label loved it and next thing he knew the album was re-titled Cherry Pie, the single is Cherry Pie, he's going to Cherry Pie eating contests, they made him the Cherry Pie Guy.

 

However, in terms of lyrical subject matter, you can't judge the glam metal bands solely by the pop ballads that were requirements at the time for record contracts and releases.  Most had better and heavier tracks throughout the remainder of the albums, you'd just never know it because those weren't charting.  One thing about the grunge scene is that it burned out much more quickly because the public could only take so many depressing toned songs over a few years.  Guns was a unique band in that they had so many different sounding tracks, from sprawling epics to hard partying anthems to more somber songs as well, they hit so many different areas.  They couldn't be pigeonholed. 

Edited March 4, 2016 by HuskerTornado

[HuskerTornado]

9 hours ago, dalsh327 said:

1990 article about Sub Pop, over a year before Nirvana became a household name.  Most of the attention was on Soundgarden. 

http://articles.latimes.com/1990-04-22/entertainment/ca-227_1_seattle-sound

2 years later, still a support act. 

 

Nirvana was made by Butch Vig's production on Nevermind.   That's why they catapulted to the top first out of that scene, although there were several alternative albums in 91 that were very big.  Still, as big as they got, they never were as big as GnR.  Nirvana's place started being mega inflated after Cobain's suicide.  That's when you really saw a bunch of people suddenly claiming Cobain was some martyr and the voice of the generation. 

[Nicklord]

6 hours ago, SlashElvisTCB said:

Honestly Grunge's impact today is highly overrated by historians, history likes to say it was huge and bigger than GNR and Bigger than Rock, but it was in fact no more "huge" than All American Rejects, Bullet For My Valentine or Screamo in general is today to high schoolers & college kids, you had people who liked it and people who didn't, but far more people liked GNR and continue to, still to this day. Look at the record sales and compare Nirvana, Alice In Chains, Sound Garden & Pearl Jam to GNR, Metallica, AC/DC and even Pink Floyd or just compare Nirvana to GNR sales and case closed. You probably had parts of the country that liked it, but Rock still was in favor to the emo Grunge liberals from Seattle.

It is overrated in my opinion too. It didn't change rock forever or whatever they say. It was just a phase. Now there are aren't any new good grunge bands, only ones from that period that are still active. There is "post grunge" which mainly sucks ass. But also All American Rejects, Bullet For My Valentine never headlined any of the biggest festivals in the world and played arenas and stadiums like Nirvana did and Pearl Jam is still doing. 

Nirvana is very comparable to GnR in terms of sales. They sold less but they had 2 major albums and GnR had 3 but out of those 3 one is double album which was sold separately and that made sales bigger than they really are (majority of people bought both illusion albums on the same day) 

Also you have Bleach and TSI then Lies and MTV Unplugged that are very comparable too. 

[-Jaro-]

11 hours ago, Nicklord said:

I'm happy with responses in "my" thread  

I find it interesting that there aren't many people who like both grunge and gnr in USA (it seems like it) but in Serbia Kurt Cobain and Axl Rose (also gnr and grunge bands) are usually loved by the same type of people. 

Same in Croatia

Well, I see lot of bashing between Maiden and Metallica fans, but here - most of Metallica fans are Maiden fans and vice versa...

Personally, I started listening Nirvana 5-10 yrs after Kurt killed himself, I know that grungers were annoying me back in 1990s.

Also, I was annoyed about fact that after sucide Nirvana grew more fans around me . . .

Now, 20 yrs later - I see that that's the way music industry works - best way for growing sales i death of perfomer...

 

 

[Hell House]

On March 1, 2016 at 3:30 PM, tsinindy said:

No, Guns said they'd only do it if they played last.  MET said ok.

Uh, no.

[stella]

I think grunge seemed like a natural progression from 80s/early 90s rock for a lot of people, and it was influencing the music scene way before it went national. If you were walking around rock clubs in LA or NY in say, 1990, you did see people wearing flannel shirts and Doc Martens and such, way before it ever hit mainstream consciousness. And those folks would be attending glam/hair metal shows. The group who founded Pearl Jam came from Mother Love Bone, which was less grunge and more glam. You saw it with groups who had carried glam elements in the mid-80s but dialed them down by 1989 or 1990, like Motley Crue. Guns N' Roses *was* a good bridge group between the two genres, but the tide had already shifted a lot by the time Illusions came out.

There's a good book by Anne Thomas Soffee -- who moved to LA to be a journalist in I think 1990 or 1991 -- who points out the way the scene was shifting then, way before Middle America was aware of it.

[stella]

18 hours ago, tsinindy said:

On 3/2/2016 at 5:25 AM, tsinindy said:

Understand and maybe that was the case in Europe, but not the U.S.  Met was on the decline and Guns took their spot basically.   

Lets recall Met put the black album out a month or so before UYI came out.

maybe there is some shading of my memory due to time. But I recall way more hype and excitement surrounding GnR and their records and tour than Metallica.

 

I agree with this. I think part of it was the fact that Metallica didn't do videos up until And Justice For All and really wasn't on the radio. They got a lot of magazine coverage, but you had to already be a metal/rock fan to pick up those magazines. When they did their performance of "One" at the Grammys it really *was* the first time that a mainstream music audience got to see them. And then they lost to Jethro Tull, so it was kind of clear that the Mainstream Music Establishment (tm) still didn't get them (or rock/metal) With the Black Album they were marketing themselves the way other bands did, and it helped them pick up a larger audience.

Edited March 4, 2016 by stella

[tsinindy]

2 hours ago, Hell House said:

Uh, no.

Well....what is your recollection then?

[trqster]

in their heyday there were Gn'R, Mettalica & Bon Jovi as the biggest "same era" bands in the world. 

[Bono]

Guns N' Roses were massive but at the time neither them or Metallica were playing huge stadiums the way U2 was. I was oblivious to U2 back then, but they were huge during the whole Joshua Tree - Achtung Baby era.  I do remember seeing lots of kids with U2 shirts back then but they were the older kids. My age group seemed to be all about Guns N Roses. Metallica was huge too but it never seemed to be on GnR's level.  I don't think the Use Your Illusion albums combined have sold as much as Achtung Baby(18 million I think).  The Black album might have Achtung Baby beat but I'm not sure...... It's hard to say. GnR played a ton fo shows but neither them or Metallica played to the huge crowds the way U2 did consistently back then.  GnR just seemed to be everywhere though. Axl's antics played a huge part in that though. He was a media sensation. The guy everyone loved to hate and he drew a reaction.  The hysteria surrounding the realse of the Illusions though was very real. 


**I don't actually know how many albums the Illusions sold. I think maybe I'm off and they've both sold like 17 million?? Under 18 million combined seems wrong to me.  The Black album I think crushes them all though. 

Edited March 4, 2016 by Bono

[Sprite]

1 hour ago, Bono said:

**I don't actually know how many albums the Illusions sold. I think maybe I'm off and they've both sold like 17 million?? Under 18 million combined seems wrong to me.  The Black album I think crushes them all though. 

I thought I saw the official numbers at 7 million each and I think that was a total from the late 90s. I think Matt said on twitter recently when someone asked him about that drum fill littered all over the album, part of his response was they've sold over 20 million combined. That sounds about right if it was 14 million 20 years ago.

[ManuARG]

On 3/1/2016 at 8:34 PM, Kasanova King said:

Apparently that was just a rumor.  Metallica ended up doing it because they knew G N' R wouldn't be able to start early....and they didn't want to have to come on stage at 2 am. 

Duff told in his book that Metallica didnt want to play 2nd because of Axl and his 2am shows...

[sonofnazareth]

to those who said that GNR were on the decline as far as popularity goes in 1993...I remember them being extremely popular in 1993..they were all over TV and the media and in 1994, Axl even got a mention in THE action blockbuster film of the year, 'True Lies'. In 1995, rock fans started to wonder what happened to GNR and moved on to other newer bands such as the Smashing Pumpkins etc. 

[Padme]

On 3/3/2016 at 4:29 PM, Apollo said:

That's the question I was asking. 

 That's a tough transition though. I mostly agree with you. 

But maybe it's actually a deeper explanation. Appetite showed that kids wanted hard rock with substance. But kids/bands were still glamming it up in 88-89-90. 

I think it was more the pretencious and Axl's ego of the Illusions that led kids to go towards grunge. While you and I loved Estranged and November Rain type videos - there was nothing street and real about them. Spending millions of dollars on videos with dolphins.....there is nothing hardcore about that at all. 

Axl's ego turned a lot of people off. 

So I suppose I can agree that GnR helped pave the way from hair bands to grunge. In a good way (appetite) and a bad way (illusions). 

Though I'm sure grunge fans would laugh at the idea of gnr fans giving GnR fhe credit for starting grunge music. 

Last I check AIC is opening for GN'R not the other way around. Yes, you are giving Axl too much "credit". He has nothing to do with it, maybe he was a scapegoat for some people, nothing more. Record companies are always looking for the next big thing. And at that time they found it in Seatle. And they went for it with the full cooperation from MTV, magazines and radio stations. They are all this one big family working together. It's all business, just a game record companies and media play together all the time.

[Sprite]

On 3/3/2016 at 8:29 AM, Apollo said:

That's the question I was asking. 

 That's a tough transition though. I mostly agree with you. 

But maybe it's actually a deeper explanation. Appetite showed that kids wanted hard rock with substance. But kids/bands were still glamming it up in 88-89-90. 

I think it was more the pretencious and Axl's ego of the Illusions that led kids to go towards grunge. While you and I loved Estranged and November Rain type videos - there was nothing street and real about them. Spending millions of dollars on videos with dolphins.....there is nothing hardcore about that at all. 

Axl's ego turned a lot of people off. 

So I suppose I can agree that GnR helped pave the way from hair bands to grunge. In a good way (appetite) and a bad way (illusions). 

Though I'm sure grunge fans would laugh at the idea of gnr fans giving GnR fhe credit for starting grunge music. 

Good post.

One thing I've always found odd is the so called "street image" so many fans expected from them. By the time Illusions came around, they were far from homeless. They had lived a very privileged life for a couple years up to that point. So in that way, I think it would have been a false representation of themselves to continue with it. 

They definitely lost that street image with videos like November Rain, Estranged and Don't Cry, but going that route also brought about new fans, and expanded their fanbase overall because it opened up their music catalog to more than just angry young fans looking for loud hard/punk rock. 

I don't think GNR paved the way for grunge. I do not think GNR had a lot to do with that movement at all, and it bursting in popularity is really nothing against GNR, or more traditional rock music. I think punk music and the war on drugs which had been put on overdrive in the Regan years (80-88) and followed by another extreme social conservative after,  played a much bigger part in the culture shift than most realize. Also I've said it before, you've got to just give credit to Nirvana. Nevermind was a great album that had a new sound. I don't it view as revolutionary as it's given credit for, but it was great nonetheless. You also have to wonder how much Kurt's suicide plays into the "legendary" factor that Grunge and Nirvana have today. If anything, I'd say Appetite and Nevermind had a pretty similar impact in their respective times. 

[Changes]

The main comparison seems to be nirvana but I remember back in the day (I was very young) it was all a battle in school between GNR and Metallica. I don't think Metallica had too many female fans though, I remember it was mostly the guys in school who kept objecting with Metallica.

 

Which leads to my question, because I never paid much attention to Metallica  - was there ever any controversy around the members of Metallica? And were they even stars in their own capacity? I can't remember reading too many headlines about the members of Metallica. Good or bad - it seems like GNR was more like their own reality show of that time. The members were all stars and they had kind of a sex appeal which attracted all sorts of fans, which can't be said for James hetfield who seems to have been born 50 years old. 

Edited March 4, 2016 by Changes

[sanity_lost]

You need to find people who didn't listen to this kind of music to tell you who were the biggest bands of their time. Go find a conclave of country music fans who were teens/young adults at the time and ask them. You know you are big when the non-music listeners or the music listeners who avoid your brand of music are aware of your songs whether they liked them or not.

Of course, this is depending on what you mean by Biggest Band. Do you mean liked, well attended, hated, or just well known.

Edited March 4, 2016 by sanity_lost
clarification

[stella]

1 hour ago, Changes said:

The main comparison seems to be nirvana but I remember back in the day (I was very young) it was all a battle in school between GNR and Metallica. I don't think Metallica had too many female fans though, I remember it was mostly the guys in school who kept objecting with Metallica.

 

Which leads to my question, because I never paid much attention to Metallica  - was there ever any controversy around the members of Metallica? And were they even stars in their own capacity? I can't remember reading too many headlines about the members of Metallica. Good or bad - it seems like GNR was more like their own reality show of that time. The members were all stars and they had kind of a sex appeal which attracted all sorts of fans, which can't be said for James hetfield who seems to have been born 50 years old. 

Yeah, I liked Metallica and Testament and such along with bands like GnR, and I very much remember that some people looked at me as though I had two heads, LOL. There WERE other girls who liked those bands but they were not in the majority. I don't think anyone ever really thought of them as sexy or that they attracted the same teenybopper groupies that GnR in its prime did, no. They were grungy and dangerous and kind of looked like their male fans. And I don't remember any one member of Metallica really standing out, except Cliff Burton.

The biggest news stories I remember about Metallica were a) when they started doing videos; b) when they lost the Grammy to Jethro Tull.
Also -- Cliff Burton's death. I was a wee one when that happened, mid 1980s, but when I got into music in the late 80s there were still a lot of articles about it. There were articles about the accident itself, and the way the band coped, and how they decided to get a new bassist, and so on. And there were also articles about how other musicians reacted to Cliff Burton's death. I'm not a Dave Mustaine fan, but I remember reading a very touching article in -- I think RIP -- where he talked about how he reacted when he learned about the accident. He said that he sat around all day and night and just cried.

Edited March 5, 2016 by stella

[PatrickS77]

On 4.3.2016 at 4:58 PM, Bono said:

Guns N' Roses were massive but at the time neither them or Metallica were playing huge stadiums the way U2 was. I was oblivious to U2 back then, but they were huge during the whole Joshua Tree - Achtung Baby era.  I do remember seeing lots of kids with U2 shirts back then but they were the older kids. My age group seemed to be all about Guns N Roses. Metallica was huge too but it never seemed to be on GnR's level.  I don't think the Use Your Illusion albums combined have sold as much as Achtung Baby(18 million I think).  The Black album might have Achtung Baby beat but I'm not sure...... It's hard to say. GnR played a ton fo shows but neither them or Metallica played to the huge crowds the way U2 did consistently back then.  GnR just seemed to be everywhere though. Axl's antics played a huge part in that though. He was a media sensation. The guy everyone loved to hate and he drew a reaction.  The hysteria surrounding the realse of the Illusions though was very real. 
 

Guns N' Roses (and later on Metallica  were playing stadiums too). Just like U2. All 3 of them did stadiums and arenas. The biggest bands in those days were GNR, U2 and Metallica.... later on Bon Jovi joined. Of course U2, Bon Jovi and GNR were more on a mainstream level than Metallica, but still Metallica has gotten mainstream and broke out of the niche they used to be, but at that time they weren't as big as GNR (that changed over the years though). I remember on Dial MTV GNR, Michael Jackson and Bon Jovi dukeing it out for the #1 spot every day.

Edited March 6, 2016 by PatrickS77

[PatrickS77]

On 4.3.2016 at 6:17 PM, Sprite said:

I thought I saw the official numbers at 7 million each and I think that was a total from the late 90s. I think Matt said on twitter recently when someone asked him about that drum fill littered all over the album, part of his response was they've sold over 20 million combined. That sounds about right if it was 14 million 20 years ago.

Those 7 million are only US RIAA certifications.

Edited March 6, 2016 by PatrickS77