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GNR Women's Discussion - Part 2

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8 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Why victims of domestic abuse do not leave?

 

Sorry  out the likes?

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7 minutes ago, BlueJean Baby said:

Thank you all.  I left the really horrible stuff out of the story...just say I am lucky to be alive. 

@killuridols as you said he should be locked up, which I understand he was for one week about two years ago for drunk driving. He tried to kill himself in jail, so after they released him from the hospital and his mother fought to let him free to get treatment. They let him free, he did not get any treatment. How he keeps getting away with things is beyond me. 

He had a second wife and two kids with her, did the same to them. 

A fucked up legal system based on patriarchy and probably full of male judges and attorneys is what keeps this guy getting away with it.

A system that works for the aggressor and not for the victims. They walk in the street among us, with all their freedom guaranteed and probably thinking it is his right to be out of jail because "freedom for all" and all that rights-based system BS.

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19 minutes ago, killuridols said:

A fucked up legal system based on patriarchy and probably full of male judges and attorneys is what keeps this guy getting away with it.

A system that works for the aggressor and not for the victims. They walk in the street among us, with all their freedom guaranteed and probably thinking it is his right to be out of jail because "freedom for all" and all that rights-based system BS.

System same in all world Argentina no different

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2 minutes ago, Ratam said:

System same in all world Argentina no different

I know it very well :unsure:

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There were a couple of things in the last 10 pages or so that I wanted to comment on (and contribute some new stuff), but now I can't even remember what these subjects were.

---

About the discussion going on right now:

I can't stress enough how much I disagree with any implication that the victims might be to blame for "provoking" the violence towards them.

With that being said, I completely understand @Whiskey Rose's point, as I had similar experiences with two cases, one of a relative and one of a friend. I think that each DV case is different, although there is a common pattern in all of them. The two situations I mentioned above (and I've had first hand knowledge of) were not as extreme as what @BlueJean Baby went through (thank you for opening up and sharing your experience); however, the victims didn't find the strength and the will to walk out.

In the relative's case I can partly understand that she stayed in the abusive relationship for many years (although she had full support from family/friends and there was no financial dependency issue), because there was a child involved.

My friend though... I won't go into full detail, as it's personal stuff and I don't want to expose someone else's life here, even anonymously. All ll I can say is that she finally married the guy despite the support and the advice for not doing so (he was manipulative and managed to turn her against her friends); and, as far as I know, she's still with him about 20 years after. I think that there is some responsibility on the victim's part here.

Edited by Blackstar
typo
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1 hour ago, Blackstar said:

All ll I can say is that she finally married the guy despite the support and the advice for not doing so (he was manipulative and managed to turn her against her friends); and, as far as I know, she's still with him about 20 years after. I think that there is some responsibility on the victim's part here.

You could benefit from watching the video I posted before to understand why a woman stays in an abusive relationship.

Saying that a victim has total or partial blame is perpetrating the idea that people deserve what they get because of what they do and that the abuser has no responsibility at all. 

A victim is always a victim and the focus do not have to be in how come she doesn't run away because you know what? That guy will soon get another vulnerable woman and he will continue to be an abuser, while the victim remains a survivor!

We don't need any more survivors of domestic violence. We need women who never get to experience it and if they do, it should be their abusers responsibility the one in question, not the victim's, who is probably emotionally damaged and deeply disturbed to even make sense out of the whole situation.

The patriarchal society has imposed the idea that when we've been damaged for the first time it is someone else's fault but when we are damaged for the second time, it is ours. Gender violence is not so simple to understand from the outside, especially from the point of view of a healthy mind.

Edited by killuridols
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@killuridols, my post was mainly about sharing my personal experience, not about going into my general views on the subject (which are no different that yours), and I don't need any lecturing on it.

Edited by Blackstar
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3 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

@killuridols, my post was mainly about sharing my personal experience, not about going into my general views on the subject; which are no different that yours and I won't accept any lecturing about it.

Your "personal experience" jumped to a quick conclusion which happens to be one of the most damaging ideas this whole subject always brings up: the responsibility of the victims.

I wasn't trying to lecture you but what you said still triggers that idea and it is opposite to my views on the subject, so I don't think we agree on that, either on a personal or general view.

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2 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Your "personal experience" jumped to a quick conclusion which happens to be one of the most damaging ideas this whole subject always brings up: the responsibility of the victims.

I wasn't trying to lecture you but what you said still triggers that idea and it is opposite to my views on the subject, so I don't think we agree on that, either on a personal or general view.

I referred to a particular case and the elements that separate it from others without going into details for reasons I explained.

Anyway, whatever...

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A little insight on "how a grown-ass man can be abused in relationship" for Women`s thread:

It`s strange for me that every time we speak about abusive households, we speak just about women and kids. Few years ago I was helping to opponent a thesis about domestic abuse. After I`ve read 50+ pages, I was pretty surprised that I found just women and children issues. No mention about disabled or elders or any mention how can a man be abused in relationship (household). Yes, I have seen a man pretty badly injured by his wife using kitchen stuff (later he changed story to a sports injury). I agree, this is rare if you compare it with amount of open violence on obviously weaker ones. But, you know, imagine a man going to the police that his old lady beat the shit out of him with frying pan. Sissy, isn`t he? Pretty the same as raped man. Patriarchal society does damage both sides. 

Then there is second line of abusing which is not visible on the first glimpse. Emotional abuse. It is even strongest and damage lasts longer that any violent outburst. Women can be really good in this. 

For my (inner) purposes I divide violence into targeted and not targeted. Systematic (targeted) violence comes also with intent to do as large damage as possible, usually with emotional, economic or any other kind of abuse. Outburst/hissy/throwing tantrum is different kind of violence (if a man with autism attacks because he got upset, that`s it - as a clear example. Please don`t fail into semantic nuances chasing, autism example is to highlight the aspect of not systematic behavior but rather uncontrolled reaction). My problem is if I`m in the way. On the other side, if you have person like this at home, you are in the way pretty often.

Nothing can protect you from falling into a relationship with either to sociopath partner or someone with pretty big baggage of inner issues. But, somehow, often two "packed" ones get together, even in extent that they both cannot even imagine healthy, equal and respectful relationship because they had never seen something like that. Back to men issue: women can get control or advantage usually not with violence, they rather with systematic undermining of self-esteem of that man. It`s easier when the man is cracked from past issues or does have serious mental issues. Man can really loose all their being for particular woman, I`ve seen guys totally helpless about their "sweet child" idolized in their minds. In some cases they can`t make any other working relationship because there is still their sweet child, from relationship that never existed or is not functional or reachable anymore. She could do anything to that man (it`s just up on her, it`s difficult and unequal relationship anyway, even if sweet and calm from the outside) and they will be loving and helpless and beg for coming back like kicked puppy.

If the self esteem is undermined effectively enough, the man cannot see himself as worthy of unconditional love and can only maintain relationships where he is pretty sure that he pays enough for attention and care (and does not get emotionally involved too much). Don`t mention that he can feel not worthy living, but here we stepped into suicidal depth of thoughts. (I`d be somehow interested how many men attempted suicide because of relationship abuse). 

 

Edited by Alja

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I've just read through the last few pages...

@BlueJean Baby, thank you for sharing what happened to you. I am very glad that you were able to get away from that, and I hope that you will continue to stay safe. <3

As to what else has been said...@Blackstar, I agree that the victim should never be blamed. But the one thing I want to comment on in your post that *is* a bit like victim blaming is saying that someone didn't have the "strength or will" to leave. IMHO it's not about that at all. DV is like being in a hostage situation from what I have been told. You can't just walk out of it, any more than a hostage can walk out of a standoff.

You can be the strongest person in the world, but if you are trapped without any discernible resources or allies that can help you, your options are nil. Not every town has a crisis center or shelter who can help women get out of an abusive relationship; even if it does exist, a woman might not be able to contact them.

They might worry about the safety of their children if they leave. If they're in the house with the kids they at least have a chance of stopping them from being abused; if they're away on visitation with the abusive parent, that option goes away (and one would be shocked by just how often the American courts will give at least partial custody and visitation to abusive parents...even rapists. It's a horrifying truth that some women who were raped end up seeing and dealing with their rapist for the next 18 years because the scumbag sued for, and received, parental rights to the kid conceived from the rape).

There also might be conditioning from the religion they were raised in, growing up in a house where *they* witnessed abuse and learned to model relationships from it, and all the psychological abuse that DVers put their victims through. They might have PTSD, depression, anxiety or other conditions as a result of DV.

Law enforcement doesn't do a great job of protecting women who have escaped, and orders of protection are often worthless.

While I have experienced other abuse, I have not been in a DV relationship. I have friends who have. I have one friend in particular whose life would be in danger if her ex ever found her. The only reason they got out was because they had access to resources and help. Instead of talking about why people don't leave DV situations we need to be talking about ways to establish more resources so they *can* leave.

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1 hour ago, stella said:

As to what else has been said...@Blackstar, I agree that the victim should never be blamed. But the one thing I want to comment on in your post that *is* a bit like victim blaming is saying that someone didn't have the "strength or will" to leave. IMHO it's not about that at all. DV is like being in a hostage situation from what I have been told. You can't just walk out of it, any more than a hostage can walk out of a standoff.

You can be the strongest person in the world, but if you are trapped without any discernible resources or allies that can help you, your options are nil. Not every town has a crisis center or shelter who can help women get out of an abusive relationship; even if it does exist, a woman might not be able to contact them.

They might worry about the safety of their children if they leave. If they're in the house with the kids they at least have a chance of stopping them from being abused; if they're away on visitation with the abusive parent, that option goes away (and one would be shocked by just how often the American courts will give at least partial custody and visitation to abusive parents...even rapists. It's a horrifying truth that some women who were raped end up seeing and dealing with their rapist for the next 18 years because the scumbag sued for, and received, parental rights to the kid conceived from the rape).

There also might be conditioning from the religion they were raised in, growing up in a house where *they* witnessed abuse and learned to model relationships from it, and all the psychological abuse that DVers put their victims through. They might have PTSD, depression, anxiety or other conditions as a result of DV.

Law enforcement doesn't do a great job of protecting women who have escaped, and orders of protection are often worthless.

While I have experienced other abuse, I have not been in a DV relationship. I have friends who have. I have one friend in particular whose life would be in danger if her ex ever found her. The only reason they got out was because they had access to resources and help. Instead of talking about why people don't leave DV situations we need to be talking about ways to establish more resources so they *can* leave.

I don't disagree with all this. Not blaming the victim is a general principle in regards to DV, as much as in regards to rape. However, even in this issue, it's not all black and white and each DV case is different (although there are common patterns in the ways perpetrators act - e.g. blaming the victim for "provoking" the abuse) and I was talking about two particular cases I happen to know about.

Yes, in many DV cases (probably the vast majority of them) it's not a matter of strength and will for the reasons you presented. But when none of these obstacles (children, lack of resources and support, financial dependency, religious beliefs) is present, a question of choice and will might arise, especially if the monotonous answer after each DV incident is "yes, but I don't want to go to a psychologist - I love him and I can't live without him" (despite "if", this is not hypothetical).

Edited by Blackstar
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:no:

Making up cases of DV to prove ridiculous points that do not exist must be the lamest thing I've seen done in this thread.

The ignorance and arrogance of some people is just making me shake my head in disbelief that "winning" an arguement in a forum is far more important than listening to the actual victims of DV and trying to understand their problems.

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"when we got there he said to me “you’re a sight for sore eyes” he gave me a rose ”which I still have“ and after the show"

 

 

:wub:

 

 

"He was so romantic and gentle with me, he would wash me with a warm wash cloth, etc. just the really amazing Axl that I love. He played piano which will bring tears to your eyes and chills to your arms, it’s so pretty!"

 

Seems like Axl always making sweet gesture to People/Girls He likes 

 

N'Slash 

:awesomeface:

Why didnt They ask about Slash N'Axl relationship :max:

Edited by SerenityScorp
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@MillionsOfSpiders Uuhm yeah, change of topic might be a good idea, especially since everything that needs to be said on the DV issue has already been said anyway.

Anyway, interesting find. Good to know I'm not the only one who sometimes finds weird shit in other places and then gets the urge to post it here lol.

About that interview (assuming it's legit, which it does kind of look like to me)... seems like another girl of the "Axl was always very sweet to me and always treated me right" variety, similar to Jennifer Driver and a couple of others. It's interesting that these women's experiences vary so much across the board. Also similar in some ways to what Gina Siler has said about Axl being sweet and gentle in bed. The contrast to... uuh, other stories we've heard is staggering. He's a case for a criminal profiler or something.

 

Quote

JS: Well I never have EVER revealed this to anyone before! After the 3 days me and Axl spent together, I turned up pregnant, I had a miscarriage as I was partying like a mad women, we all were, but it killed me losing our baby (he doesn’t even know this!) I know Axl has always wanted kids and the women he has dated that had them, he has always gotten very close to.

Well, that would be the second women Axl knocked up that we know of then, so I think we can throw the infertility theory out of the window.

Also, has Axl dated any other women with children, besides Stephanie Seymour?? The way Julianna says this, she makes it sound as if there were more than Steph.

 

18 hours ago, Tori72 said:

Right :lol:

What I meant with "we know he will do that or something else again" is that Erin took him back and held him and Axl seemed to be grateful for that. It sounds so touching when reading this but we know how he treated Erin only a couple of month/years later, so it is actually kind of sad.

Aaand "Makes your fantasy conversation ever more plausible though" is my totally logical assumption that as Axl and Izzy shared a room, the conversation between Izzy and Steven (and therefore the rest of your fantasy of course) has happend. Jeez, I tend to get more confusing when I have to explain myself. :facepalm:

In short:

1. Axl is gonna treat Erin badly but sounds so cute in that letter

2. Axl and Izzy shared a room and therefore Slaxl has been proved.

Right? Right! 

giphy.gif

Okay, RIGHT.

:P

 

17 hours ago, killuridols said:

Duff is adorable!!!!! :heart: :heart: :wub:

 

 

Duff's dad dance moves :lol:

Seriously though, cute video.

 

9 hours ago, SerenityScorp said:

Better than Slash's house indeed.

But to be fair, it probably doesn't take much to decorate a better looking home than the nightmare Perla created :P

 

 

 

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@Frey 

If it was Slash tht decorating His house maybe He will decorate it with lots of horror porn N'dino/reptile stuff

 

Also He will make His secret chamber full of Axl Rose photo N' stuff 

:awesomeface:

 

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3 hours ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

Sorry if this is derailing the current conversation :) I already spent ages being indecisive about posting this

Ok. I will say what i already told you about this...

I think it is possible that she had a brief encounter with Axl, like so many others did in those wild years of sex, drugs and rock n roll.

About Axl being charming and sweet... well, he wanted to get laid, so I really doubt he would be awful :shrugs: 

This doesnt mean or say much to me about how he treated the ones who had a steady relationship with him. They are different scenarios.

About the pregnancy.... same thing. It can be true or not. How would we know anyway? It is easy to make up a story like that then say it miscarried. 

What i've been told about this woman is that she claims to have had a relationship with Axl. Details of it sound to be oversized and in general, it seems no ones gives her too much credit for it.

I really dont see the point of her speaking about that.... But this interview is from 2009, so that makes it a long time ago too.

 

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@BlueJean Baby thank you for sharing your story here. So very heartbreaking. Just wanted to let you know that I'm sorry you and your son had to go through this hell and still do to some part. Can't believe how much he was able to get away with the shit he'd done. Wish you all the best! :hug:

And yeah, I gotta go back to where the discussion about domestic violence kind of stopped. What has been done in the latest post by Alja was classic derailing and I wanna point it out because it is often experienced in discussions about violence towards women. The aim of derailing is to bring the subject of discussion to something else. The subject was domestic violence towards women and how important it is to understand that the one who abuses has the responsibility and never ever the victim. To go and say, "yeah, but also men are victims of dv and elder people" etc. True, they are. But only to an incredibly smaller amount. There are statistics about those things. It is simply like: "apples are green". - "Yeah, but also grass is green". Right, but we were talking about apples. Whatever is going on with grass has nothing to do with apples.

Whatever happens to some men or elders has nothing to do with dv towards women and the fact that a victim is never responsible. 

On how to help victims, I learned that you cannot force anyone to stop a relationship and seek help. You can only offer to be there, to listen and sensitivly tell her that she does not deserve to live like this, that she does not deserve to be treated like this. That there is professional help out there. We had this discussion also about how to help Axl, whether now or in the past. Opinions vary here. I go with the side that says forced help doesn't work and as, I think @MillionsOfSpiders described, has complex psychological structure running that might alienate the victim from her friends and allys.

 

About @MillionsOfSpiders's story of Juliana....

14 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Ok. I will say what i already told you about this...

I think it is possible that she had a brief encounter with Axl, like so many others did in those wild years of sex, drugs and rock n roll.

About Axl being charming and sweet... well, he wanted to get laid, so I really doubt he would be awful :shrugs: 

This doesnt mean or say much to me about how he treated the ones who had a steady relationship with him. They are different scenarios.

About the pregnancy.... same thing. It can be true or not. How would we know anyway? It is easy to make up a story like that then say it miscarried. 

What i've been told about this woman is that she claims to have had a relationship with Axl. Details of it sound to be oversized and in general, it seems no ones gives her too much credit for it.

I really dont see the point of her speaking about that.... But this interview is from 2009, so that makes it a long time ago too.

 

This. Might be true, maybe not. Might be exaggerated, might not. I don't think it is totally made up but this is only a gut feeling. About Axl being sweet and romantic. Apparently he could be like this. When things like that are being stated my mind wanders to how he proposed forced Erin into marriage, what he looked like on the wedding fotos. Sorry, but bare chested, cig in one hand, dark sunglasses on his nose? How could he possibly be more romantic and sweet than that? :facepalm: Also makes we wonder on how much he truly loved Erin and how much was something else. 

And the Duff video: Am I the only one who thinks Duff lookes weird? His Dad dancing moves are funny, but his facial expression kind of ... I don't know. I noticed, I don't know how to put my finger on it. :shrugs:

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Thank you @Tori72.  It was not easy telling that, I held it all inside for years and have finally gotten to the point where I can talk about it in the past few years. Luckily, I have to go to work shortly and hopefully, it will get my mind off it, last night was not very good for me. ?

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1 hour ago, killuridols said:

About Axl being charming and sweet... well, he wanted to get laid, so I really doubt he would be awful :shrugs: 

How about tht story when a Woman have sex with Him by force N' He said sorry?

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19 minutes ago, BlueJean Baby said:

Thank you @Tori72.  It was not easy telling that, I held it all inside for years and have finally gotten to the point where I can talk about it in the past few years. Luckily, I have to go to work shortly and hopefully, it will get my mind off it, last night was not very good for me. ?

No, Blue.talk unload and  cure☺

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@MillionsOfSpiders That is a blast from the past :wow: I remember when that interview with Julianna Sedbrook first appeared on the internet. I had completely forgotten about it, but as soon as I read her name my brain went "We had some really romantic days, Axl washed me with a wash cloth, then he locked himself up in a bathroom, and I ended up pregnant but lost the baby because I was partying too much." Apparently that part left a lasting impression on me back then :facepalm:

We had a thread about it here on mygnr. So it's totally fine to discuss this imo, as it has already been discussed extensively in the past. Some people were worried then that learning about the miscarried baby (another miscarried baby) might hurt Axl. I figure if Axl does indeed read this forum, he probably learned about this when the interview originally appeared and it's too late now anyway.

That thread seems to be one of those threads that are gone and lost forever now though, sadly. At least I can't find it anymore. Iirc, Julianna herself signed up here and commented on the article too. And I also vaguely remember some sort of Facebook drama involving Julianna and Adriana that may or may not have been related to his article.

I should check if I saved any of this stuff back then.

(As for who Julianna was or about her making this up... To me, she seems like she was simply one of these girls who were "around" the band back then and engaged in sexual relationships with them at various points in time. Similar to Pam Manning, Adriana, Barbie and so on. I'd say she is as credible (or not) as any of them. I also vaguely remember Steven talking about Julianna and the friend named Lisa that she mentions in that interview, saying basically the same stuff she says here about how they used to live together.)

 

21 hours ago, Frey said:

Sorry, I didn't see that first part of your post earlier, it really must have gotten eaten.

But yeah. @Lumikki and Sinead O' Connor will be here with the soup and blankets in a minute probably. I'm sure you can join their club lol.

And well, Erin did say once that she felt sorry for him and wanted to "make it all better". Perfect set-up for a pretty co-dependent relationship there too- one person who's very emotionally needy and another one who's a care-taker. Iirc, Erin also mentioned having already been her ill mother's caretaker as a child or something, so she probably fell right back into that pattern again with Axl.

Not sure about what you mean by "we know he will do that or something else again" though. If you're referring to domestic violence, I wouldn't be so sure. As far as we know, he hasn't done anything like that in decades now.

Not gonna lie, reading these bits like "I feel like maybe someone can finally help and understand me– I don’t feel so alone" and also the bit about him "trying hard" is kind of heart-breaking to me. Because I do believe he was trying very hard to deal with whatever he was struggling with and the way he tries to find answers in whatever book he was reading is so bittersweet.

I can just picture Axl in a hotel room in rainy Hamburg, studying his book in search of answers and trying to be quiet so as not to wake Izzy...

And that other quote  -"Thank you for coming back and also for holding me, that is one of the most important and special moments of my life."- dysfunctional relationship indeed. But also sad because Axl being so amazed and appreciative about Erin holding him probably implies he didn't get held a whole lot in his life :unsure::unsure:

As for Erin, I feel for her so much. Some of the stuff she has said, like the quote above about her wanting to make it all better for Axl, or how she's a care taker and just wanted a normal life with a station wagon and bunch of children, etc... Well, I'm kinda similar in that regard, with the same life goals and instincts*, so part of me can identify with that a whole lot and blargh... I'm honest enough with myself to admit that I might have ended up in similar ways to her, if I had been in her position and just as young and naive.

*I'm a "natural-born care taker" too, or so my aunt, who makes her living being a Yoda (TM), once told me :rolleyes: She took a look at my aura and my spiritual energy and then another quick look a the palms of my hands and bam! She knew all about me, despite the fact hat she hadn't seen me since I was 7 (so for more than 15 years by then). Gotta love Yoda types :facepalm::awesomeface:

 

20 hours ago, killuridols said:

I want to read it to understand more things about Axl. I couldn't care less about the book or the story, lol.

Hah, so I'm not the only one who does shit like this. Not just about Axl, but sometimes I read books just to figure out what it was about that book that spoke to another person or why it touched them. Or to imagine how another person felt reading a particular book. I remember when I read Slash's book for the first time, I couldn't help but think about how Axl felt reading various parts of the book.

 

20 hours ago, killuridols said:

Duff is adorable!!!!! :heart: :heart: :wub:

 

That is such a sweet video :heart::heart::heart:

 

On 30.4.2017 at 3:16 PM, Frey said:

I think he probably did share a room with Izzy there, yeah.

Before they got super famous and when they first started touring, they probably had to share rooms.

Reminds me of these pics of Slash and Steven in bed, where Slash appears passed out and Steven is all over Slash. I guess they were sharing a room when these pictures were taken as well.

 

Room sharing politics must have been fun back then:

 

Izzy: "Why do I always have to share with Axl?"

Steven: "Because I'm too scared to share a room with him and you're the only one we're sure he won't kill."

...

Steven: "What? Why can't I share with Slash anymore?"

Duff: "Because I'm sharing with Slash from now on. Go ask Del to share with you or whoever."

Steven: :(

...

Obscene noises: *coming from Slash and Axl's room*

Izzy, Duff & Steven (exhausted and sleep-deprived): "Who the fuck thought it was a good idea to let Slash and Axl share rooms?! :scared: The noises! We'll never be able to un-hear this :vomit:"

...

:awesomeface:

Room sharing politics in this band are interesting to me as well :P

I want to know more about this :lol:

 

 

 

 

Edited by Lumikki
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