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IZZY STRADLIN (and MATT SORUM) show up at movie festival in Palm Springs

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3 hours ago, PatrickS77 said:

Yeah. It's more the other way round. He isn't unsung at all. The people who care about such things act like he was the only songwriter in the band and the others only came up with crap and were worth shit without him.

Who are these people? Who is downplaying the accomplishments of Axl as a songwriter? You don't think November Rain, Estranged and all of Axl's other well known songs get rated fairly here? 

If you ask me, I've mostly seen Axl fans here for the last 15 years put down the accomplishments of every other member in the band in some misguided attempt to prove that Axl was the main driving force of GnR. Only recently, since the reunion you're starting to see the flip side of that coin with Slash and Izzy fans claiming their guy was more integral to the band than x person. Speaking for myself, I think Axl's solo work is the strongest out of the other members. Izzy's first few albums were solid. Slash and Duff mostly turned out mediocre stuff post-GnR imho. I love Axl's songwriting. His songs on Illusions in particular are among my favorite. 

I could agree with you that maybe some of Izzy's fans can overstate his importance. Certainly. But you have to understand where they're coming from - Izzy is gone and never coming back. It's difficult for his fans to accept. GnR also has not put out albums post Izzy aside from Chinese Democracy which was a divisive album with the fanbase. If Axl and Slash put out some good albums, maybe the "Izzy" factor can be definitively put to bed. But until these guys do that, some fans will continue to believe that they can't put out something as great as the previous albums without Izzy's participation. It is what it is.

4 hours ago, Kickingthehabit said:

Izzy fucked them by leaving in the 90s. They still view that as a serious betrayal (also bouncing on Velvet Revolver) and don't trust him.

Very good point. I could definitely see that being an issue.

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4 minutes ago, RONIN said:

I sort of agree but not completely.

To me, this is like saying George Harrison isn't the unsung hero of The Beatles because fans appreciate him and he gets some kudos in the media. Well...sure. But is George getting kudos anywhere near John and Paul? No. Clearly, there are some members of that band who are viewed as more important than the other members by most people - fairly or unfairly. This is simply a fact. That, to me, is what Jericho appears to be getting at. Because Axl and Slash are such iconic figures, does Izzy's contributions get lost in the mix? Yeah - they kinda do because if he was that well known for his contributions to the general public, this reunion wouldn't have gone ahead without his participation. No promoter would have signed off on these NITL shows without Izzy's participation because he would be seen as such an integral piece of the band that cutting him out would have a sizeable impact on the sales of the tour. That didn't happen because in the public's mind, Axl and Slash = GnR. Hence, Duff saying Izzy is underrated would be simply stating an obvious fact. Duff himself is an unsung hero of the band in many ways.

I totally see where you're coming from though.

Thank you! ^_^ I was just about to post as much....Duff is certainly more underrated than Izzy, at least on this forum, mostly because bass players are underrated in general. 

Let's put it this way, if it had been an Izzy album that dropped last week, we'd have a very long and appreciative thread on it by now.  Duff's Walking Papers dropped an amazing album last week and it barely gets a look in by fans on here.  Duff's bass work on the WP2 album is outstanding, the best he has done since GNR.  In fact, that album blows all of Slash's out of the water - no hyperbole whatsoever.  Jeff is a story telling lyricist - very similar to Izzy - and he's a great guitarist too.  The drumming is awesome.  

It is the best straight up rock album a GNR member has put out by a long shot.  

But...it's Duff.  So...it gets overlooked. :shrugs: At least I get to enjoy it. 

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4 minutes ago, MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle said:

Thank you! ^_^ I was just about to post as much....Duff is certainly more underrated than Izzy, at least on this forum, mostly because bass players are underrated in general. 

Let's put it this way, if it had been an Izzy album that dropped last week, we'd have a very long and appreciative thread on it by now.  Duff's Walking Papers dropped an amazing album last week and it barely gets a look in by fans on here.  Duff's bass work on the WP2 album is outstanding, the best he has done since GNR.  In fact, that album blows all of Slash's out of the water - no hyperbole whatsoever.  Jeff is a story telling lyricist - very similar to Izzy - and he's a great guitarist too.  The drumming is awesome.  

It is the best straight up rock album a GNR member has put out by a long shot.  

But...it's Duff.  So...it gets overlooked. :shrugs: At least I get to enjoy it. 

No argument from me there. Aside from Steven, Duff is easily the most under the radar member in the band. I think he's very important to the sound of the band. ;)

Isn't there an Axl interview where he mentions how Duff was sick of fans asking him on the Illusion tour "do you know where Axl is?". :lol:

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2 minutes ago, RONIN said:

No argument from me there. Aside from Steven, Duff is easily the most under the radar member in the band. I think he's very important to the sound of the band. ;)

Isn't there an Axl interview where he mentions how Duff was sick of fans asking him on the Illusion tour "do you know where Axl is?". :lol:

Ha! I haven't heard about that interview, but I'm sure they all got the 'never mind you, where's Axl' treatment.  Even Slash.  He's a funny character, Axl.  Even though he's hated as much as he's loved, it's ultimately Axl who gets all the interest.  

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14 minutes ago, RONIN said:

No argument from me there. Aside from Steven, Duff is easily the most under the radar member in the band. I think he's very important to the sound of the band. ;)

Isn't there an Axl interview where he mentions how Duff was sick of fans asking him on the Illusion tour "do you know where Axl is?". :lol:

And Duff answer was " in the jungle"??:P

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1 hour ago, MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle said:
1 hour ago, RONIN said:

Isn't there an Axl interview where he mentions how Duff was sick of fans asking him on the Illusion tour "do you know where Axl is?". :lol:

Ha! I haven't heard about that interview, but I'm sure they all got the 'never mind you, where's Axl' treatment.  Even Slash.  He's a funny character, Axl.  Even though he's hated as much as he's loved, it's ultimately Axl who gets all the interest.  

Duff himself had said it too:

And then there's Duff. Don't forget Duff. Duff is still having a hard time getting noticed. He is a gentle, silly and delightful man, even when he is drunk, which nowadays seems most of the morning and most of the afternoon and a good part of every evening. Duff is having a hard time with life on the road. He is, frankly, getting sick and tired of fans who come up to him and, rather than fall all over him, ask, "Where's Axl?" Duffs wife, Linda, recently got him a tshirt that reads: 'No, I don't know where Axl is!'

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=105

And Izzy had said that Axl gets all the crazies: :lol:

I mean, a week ago I flew with Axl from New York to Lafayette, Indiana, with one lay-over flight and by the time we hit Lafayette there were people just milling around the fuckin' airport. Mainly for him. Axl really brings out the fuckin' crazies, man. They relate to him particularly in this very weird, intense way. But that's the same with all of us, y'know. It's like a sickness. 'Cos they don't want to shake your hand or get your autograph. They want to scream in your face or mess with your head, sneak around your house, sneak into your hotel room and fuck with your head. It puts you right on edge, man, all the fuckin' time. Because a lot of these kids carry guns, right. And you never know what the fuck they're up to.

http://www.oocities.org/rattlesnake_suitcase/face90.htm

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31 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

Duff himself had said it too:

And then there's Duff. Don't forget Duff. Duff is still having a hard time getting noticed. He is a gentle, silly and delightful man, even when he is drunk, which nowadays seems most of the morning and most of the afternoon and a good part of every evening. Duff is having a hard time with life on the road. He is, frankly, getting sick and tired of fans who come up to him and, rather than fall all over him, ask, "Where's Axl?" Duffs wife, Linda, recently got him a tshirt that reads: 'No, I don't know where Axl is!'

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=105

And Izzy had said that Axl gets all the crazies: :lol:

I mean, a week ago I flew with Axl from New York to Lafayette, Indiana, with one lay-over flight and by the time we hit Lafayette there were people just milling around the fuckin' airport. Mainly for him. Axl really brings out the fuckin' crazies, man. They relate to him particularly in this very weird, intense way. But that's the same with all of us, y'know. It's like a sickness. 'Cos they don't want to shake your hand or get your autograph. They want to scream in your face or mess with your head, sneak around your house, sneak into your hotel room and fuck with your head. It puts you right on edge, man, all the fuckin' time. Because a lot of these kids carry guns, right. And you never know what the fuck they're up to.

http://www.oocities.org/rattlesnake_suitcase/face90.htm

Funny the shirt Duff wife :lol:

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44 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

Duff himself had said it too:

And then there's Duff. Don't forget Duff. Duff is still having a hard time getting noticed. He is a gentle, silly and delightful man, even when he is drunk, which nowadays seems most of the morning and most of the afternoon and a good part of every evening. Duff is having a hard time with life on the road. He is, frankly, getting sick and tired of fans who come up to him and, rather than fall all over him, ask, "Where's Axl?" Duffs wife, Linda, recently got him a tshirt that reads: 'No, I don't know where Axl is!'

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=105

And Izzy had said that Axl gets all the crazies: :lol:

I mean, a week ago I flew with Axl from New York to Lafayette, Indiana, with one lay-over flight and by the time we hit Lafayette there were people just milling around the fuckin' airport. Mainly for him. Axl really brings out the fuckin' crazies, man. They relate to him particularly in this very weird, intense way. But that's the same with all of us, y'know. It's like a sickness. 'Cos they don't want to shake your hand or get your autograph. They want to scream in your face or mess with your head, sneak around your house, sneak into your hotel room and fuck with your head. It puts you right on edge, man, all the fuckin' time. Because a lot of these kids carry guns, right. And you never know what the fuck they're up to.

http://www.oocities.org/rattlesnake_suitcase/face90.htm

Great find Blackstar - that's the quote i was thinking of! Poor Duff :lol:

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On 1/14/2018 at 6:09 AM, ludurigan said:

i dont know much about this partnership thing

i guess axl and slash and duff "own" guns n roses name, rights, so its likely that all money from merch, t-shirts, and whatnot is theirs

i think its fair to believe that izzy wasnt referring to any of that when he said that they didnt wanna split the loot equally

i think its fair to believe that izzy was referring to money from ticket sales

i think it would be fair to split the money from ticket sales equally and i think thats what izzy asked for

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My assumption as well. Fantastic post by the way.

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it appears to me that the big 3 axl, slash and duff dont want to deal with izzy for several reasons

one seems to be obviously the money

but i suppose its way more than that

slash is likely the one who really doesnt want to deal with izzy, since he never wanted to deal with izzy from day one. its much easier for slash to deal with a yes-man session musician. i believe slash campaigned for matt as the rumours indicated but i dont think slash campaigned for izzy for one minute, or did it so half-heartedly that its like he never did

 

Excellent point and one that generally gets overlooked a lot. How often has Slash worked with Izzy on his albums? Now how often have Duff and Izzy worked together? Bingo.

Remember those quotes from '92-94 from Slash where he criticized Izzy's guitar playing? Maybe most of it was just said in anger - but I bet there's also some truth in those words.

I don't think Slash likes to be challenged. Like Axl (or any big star), he prefers to run the show completely. And a session musician backing him up would fit that bill. Even as low-key as Izzy was, he wasn't going to let Slash tell him how to play stuff. Hence - as far as I know, Izzy and Slash have only collaborated once (on Ghost). Izzy/Slash is a legendary duo. Slash is well aware of that, but at his level, he doesn't have to do anything he doesn't want to - even if that means turning out less interesting "art". He made an exception with Axl because reteaming w/ Axl = huge payday. There is no rhythm guitarist that brings out the best in Slash like Izzy Stradlin'. Time has proven that definitively. 

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duff, if you ask me, would do whatever it takes to get this tour going. so if what it takes to do this tour is NOT having izzy and steven, it seems to me that duff would go for that! if what it took to have this tour is to have izzy and steven, it seems to me that he would do it as well

Pretty much how I see Duff. He's the "corporate executive"/suit of the GnR brand. Whatever it takes to get this multi-million dollar machine to go cha-ching $$$. Ironically, he was the least money driven member of the band along with Steven back in the day. Whatever happened during the Velvet Revolver era sure woke him up quick.

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axl also must have several reasons not to be willing to deal with izzy.

too many to list

power and control obviously come to mind

 

My take on this is that he may see Izzy as a completely outdated musician with rusty chops. No longer relevant to the modern era and he may have felt this even back in the early 90's (Axl wanted Dave Navarro to play rhythm guitar in GnR badly back then). I have a feeling Axl thinks Izzy isn't upto the task of recording new guns music. And as we know, he never liked Izzy's live presence much. 

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izzy would likely challenge some of the axl shots. the yes-men axl has surrounded himself with would never ever do that

i truly suspect that one of the biggest reasons axl wont ever do a GNR reunion is that he would be too EXPOSED and he obviously doesnt want that.

Izzy, Slash, Duff and Steven would sound TOO GOOD and Axl would NOT, so he would be completely exposed as the weak link in the band.

Having the shittiest drummer ever, a grooveless guitar player and 2 keyboarders is the best possible DISTRACTION for Axl onstage.

All of a sudden we are not noticing how much Axl voice is fucked. We are all complaining about Franky, Ricky and these DISTRACTIONS Axl has onstage, and we are all sorta forgetting about how much Axl is unlistenable on several songs these days

 

Interesting theory - I hadn't considered that. :lol:

I mean yeah - when you think about it, you're right, he really is the weakest link there out of all those guys. 

I just figured Axl was stacking the deck with nobodies/yes-men (or Ghosts as Steven called them recently) - guys who can counterbalance duff/slash. I think he couldn't deal with Duff/Slash/Matt or Duff/Slash/Steve when it came to decision making in the band - it was difficult for him to get his way. With Izzy and Steve/Matt out, there's a more acceptable group dynamic with Axl and Slash running the show and Duff along for the ride.

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I think izzy would easily commit to a 2 or 3 years world tour. like some people mentioned before, this is likely the easiest tour EVER, specially when compared to previous tours that all these guys have been involved with...

Seems pretty obvious. Can anything they do now be more chaotic and difficult than the club days, Appetite tour and Leg 1 of the Illusion tour? This is a corporate affair through and through - they jet in, play the gig, and fly out to the next show. 

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yeah the heroin dealer thing... i think all five of the guys have pretty nasty stuff on their past including drugs, abusing women etc.... It’s a certain kind of person who sells junk, it's a certain kind of person who beats women etc etc etc

you are possibly correct about Izzy possibly being cutthroat and selfish in business dealings but i dont see any reason to believe axl and slash and duff -- who went to business schools -- are not very similar or just the same

 

Their motivation and relationship with money was different - that goes for every member imho.

I think Izzy cared about the money - but more so in a paranoid way - wondering if they were getting properly paid or if they were getting fleeced by their lawyers/managers,etc. They were surrounded by sharks back then. If he was that cutthroat and selfish in his business dealings, he would have stayed somehow and been part of the GnR partnership. Any decent lawyer must have told him what he was walking away from. Izzy is no fool - he had Alan Niven advising him during that time - I'm sure Alan told him exactly what kind of fortune he was forfeiting by legally removing himself from the biggest band in the world. 

From my perspective, in the GnR story, there's no one who loved litigation and cutting the throats of his comrades more than Axl - but he did it for control and because he felt he was special and deserved more than the others starting from day one with the royalties split w/Steven when they got signed.

As for Slash - I suspect Slash wanted fame/fortune but took it for granted post-Illusions until he quit the band - reality hit him when his albums bombed and he's playing to a few hundred people in clubs. That must have gotten old fast. He's the biggest sellout of the band really (Axl being a close second). Some of the artists he's played with are indefensible and Axl rightfully called him out on it. I'm all for broadening your horizons and playing with all kinds of musicians but there are limits here - it would not surprise me if Slash was on a Bieber album or a Milli Vanilli reunion album as long as the money was there. He's like the Eddie Murphy/Nicolas Cage of music.

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the thing about doing just one show, or five shows, like someone mentioned previously on this thread, is that it would be extra hard to sell the G&A show after 1 or five G&R shows

people all over the world would want to have G&R and not G&A so that would not be a smart business decision, right?

 

Well - it's all a moot point now because the reunion hype is over. They blew any chance of sending off the AFD lineup in style. Even if they bring back that lineup - it won't be anywhere near as hype-worthy (or financially lucrative) as back in 2016. So where is the incentive to do it now? They can just keep this thing going and make millions for years to come - play the same 30 yr old songs off AFD and a bunch of covers night after night like a vegas act.

Edited by RONIN
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There was some discord between Izzy and Slash. Izzy cleared off when Slash joined Hollywood Rose and Slash originally wanted to be the only guitarist in Guns N' Roses like a Cream or Hendrix Experience set-up. Then you have that interview from about 1993 or 1994 where Slash slags off Izzy.

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26 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

There was some discord between Izzy and Slash. Izzy cleared off when Slash joined Hollywood Rose and Slash originally wanted to be the only guitarist in Guns N' Roses like a Cream or Hendrix Experience set-up. Then you have that interview from about 1993 or 1994 where Slash slags off Izzy.

There's a mid 90's Slash interview from Soul Monster's archive where the interviewer asks Slash why Izzy left Hollywood Rose when he joined. IIRC, Slash mentions that he started telling Izzy what/how to play on certain songs and Izzy told him to fuck off and quit. In the same interview Slash admits he's a control freak.

He can't deal with another guitarist who is an equal in a band setting. Like Rose, Slash has been doing it his way for a long time. Izzy was always going to get drowned out on Illusions and cut out of the decision making process. Axl admitted as much in one of those post-Chinese interviews where he says that he didn't know how to bring back the dueling guitars of AFD and that was because of Slash's reluctance to make it happen.

Unless Izzy submits to being a glorified session guitarist and cedes all his creative cache to Axl/Slash, he's not going to be in GnR again. Needless, to say that applies financially as well. His only way into GnR now is as a hired hand.

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51 minutes ago, RONIN said:

There's a mid 90's Slash interview from Soul Monster's archive where the interviewer asks Slash why Izzy left Hollywood Rose when he joined. IIRC, Slash mentions that he started telling Izzy what/how to play on certain songs and Izzy told him to fuck off and quit. In the same interview Slash admits he's a control freak.

He can't deal with another guitarist who is an equal in a band setting. Like Rose, Slash has been doing it his way for a long time. Izzy was always going to get drowned out on Illusions and cut out of the decision making process. Axl admitted as much in one of those post-Chinese interviews where he says that he didn't know how to bring back the dueling guitars of AFD and that was because of Slash's reluctance to make it happen.

Unless Izzy submits to being a glorified session guitarist and cedes all his creative cache to Axl/Slash, he's not going to be in GnR again. Needless, to say that applies financially as well. His only way into GnR now is as a hired hand.

I agree but literally though, Slash wanted a Hendrix/Cream style set-up at this time. Road Crew were just an one guitar thing as were Hollywood Rose. Obviously he changed as he has played in two guitar bands since, probably won over by the brilliant interplay during the Appetite era although he might not have admitted it at the time.

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10 hours ago, RONIN said:

I sort of agree but not completely.

To me, this is like saying George Harrison isn't the unsung hero of The Beatles because fans appreciate him and he gets some kudos in the media. Well...sure. But is George getting kudos anywhere near John and Paul? No. Clearly, there are some members of that band who are viewed as more important than the other members by most people - fairly or unfairly. This is simply a fact. That, to me, is what Jericho appears to be getting at. Because Axl and Slash are such iconic figures, does Izzy's contributions get lost in the mix? Yeah - they kinda do because if he was that well known for his contributions to the general public, this reunion wouldn't have gone ahead without his participation. No promoter would have signed off on these NITL shows without Izzy's participation because he would be seen as such an integral piece of the band that cutting him out would have a sizeable impact on the sales of the tour. That didn't happen because in the public's mind, Axl and Slash = GnR. Hence, Duff saying Izzy is underrated would be simply stating an obvious fact. Duff himself is an unsung hero of the band in many ways.

I totally see where you're coming from though.

But I don't think that is what Duff was talking about. I agree that for a lot of people GnR is Slash and Axl because of their image, and maybe that is what the interviewer was hinting at, I don't know, but I doubt that is what Duff meant.

And yes, John and Paul were seen as more important because they wrote 90% of the songs.

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18 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

I agree but literally though, Slash wanted a Hendrix/Cream style set-up at this time. Road Crew were just an one guitar thing as were Hollywood Rose. Obviously he changed as he has played in two guitar bands since, probably won over by the brilliant interplay during the Appetite era although he might not have admitted it at the time.

That would have been interesting to hear....

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