One reason CD wasn't the success it should have been

[Apollo]

Just my opinion. I tend to ramble a bit, so I'll try and keep it short and hit my points.

While reading some posts on here it made me think back of the glory days of rock (for my generation anyway) the late 80's and early 90's.

Obvioulsy the album Chinese Democracy had a lot of baggage. Axl keeping the name, the break-up of the old band, the 14 million dollars and 14 year wait.

But another factor, I believe, is the transformation for Axl maturing as a songwriter. That is kind of a simple way to put it, but here is what I mean.

Back in the 80's and 90's, a group of bands really dominated the rock world. You can laugh at them now, but it was a glorious time for rock music fans. Today you guys complain, "where are the rock bands".....well, when I was a teen, rock bands were everywhere!!! GnR, BJ, Tesla, Warrant, Def Leppard, Scorpions, Tora Tora, Dangerous Toys, Cinderella, Metallica, Judas Priest, Areosmith, Winger, Skid Row, Alice Cooper, LA Guns, Slaughter, Ozzy,Firehouse, Vain, Slik Toxic, Wolfsbane, Babylon AD, MR. Big - that's just off the top of my head. That is about 20 bands right there that I bought every album that was released. Back in The Day, you literaly had 3-4 albums a month that you had to buy. Can you say the same thing today?

Anyway those bands put out a few albums of hair metal music, saw some success on the charts. But then grunge came along and changed the music scene. A lot of the hair metal bands then tried to put out albums that were a bit more serious - more adult - and those albums bombed on the charts. EVEN though musically, they were WAY stronger albums than the ones that were more popular.

I'm not talking about the bands changing their style to follow a trend (grunge). I'm talking bands just growing up. Starting off as 19 year old kids, partying away, releasing a couple "fun" albums that people loved........to then being 25 years old, maturing, getting off the drugs, and now writing some pretty strong and serious songs........but the general public went "NO, we want the hair and make-up and guitar solos and songs about cherry pie" and not really giving the band a chance anymore.

I saw that happen to several bands from that era. Which is a shame and shows how screwed up the mainstream music world is. A cheesy poppy song with a catchy hook will earn you millions......but a well written song, with meaningful lyrics, often does't get a second look. I can remember buying several albums and going "WOW, these guys have really improved have song writers and musicians. This album is way better than their cheesy hair metal pop rock, it's gonna be huge"...........and the album would completely tank. The fan who wanted Cherry Pie and Every Rose Has Its Thorns didn't move on with the band.

Some of the best albums/songs to come from the hairband era were songs/albums that were commercial failures and that spelled the end of many band's careers. Even though the albums were way better than the ones that were popular.

I think that played a part in the lack of overall success to the general public for Chinese Democracy.

Rock fans want the big anthems or catchy riffs.

Catcher and TWAT take you on a journey. They aren't songs to tap your feet to, songs that make girls get up and dance, songs that wannabee guitar players learn the main part to (all of us can play the catchy parts to jungle, SCOM, back in black, iron man, etc).

Even songs like Better, TIL, SOD, Prostitue, Madagascar - they take you on a journey. Better is the catchiest song on the album, but it still takes you on a trip. It tells a story. It isn't just "take me down to paradise city, where the grass is green and the girls are pretty".......Better tells a story, and you have to make an investment to go from start to finish.

I honestly believe that CD is too good of an album to be popular in today's music world. I'm not saying the average rock fan isn't intelligent enough to "get it". I'm saying that the average rock fan just doesn't want to invest himself in it.

Appetite is like your first time with a girl. Your first handjob, your first breast, your first making out.

Illusions is when you lost your virginity. The first time you have an apartment with a girlfriend.

Chinese Democracy is when you get married.

Some fans don't want to settle down and get married. They want to stay single with no attachments, different girls every night, no responsibilites. So while marriage and having kids is the greatest thing ever - some people are just not ready for that stage in life yet.

[SoulMonster]

I am not certain that I agree with your premise that CD should have been a bigger success.

[HisRoyalSweetness]

i think paradise city tells a better story than anything on chinese democracy.

[DizzyReedsexmachine]

Chinese Democracy is when you get married.

if this is true the marriage really sucks,i prefer to stay single AFD rock1

[shotgunblues1978]

It simply doesn't have much commercial appeal and the first single was wasted on CD with the minute long ambient intro intact. The label stopped promoting the album immediately after its release; they took the Best Buy check and called it a day. And it didn't cater directly to what the fanbase wants like recent successful albums from older big time bands (AC/DC and Metallica, for two examples)

I said in another thread, Death Magnetic was considered a massive, across the board success and it sold 4.5 million worldwide. CD sold something like 3.5 million worldwide. It performed well in all markets other than the US, where its availability was limited.

Problem is people want to see things in such a black and white way, when it's really somewhere in the middle. The reality is that if CD was better promoted (better singles that were actually pushed by the label) and more widely available, it would've sold more, but not a ton more; maybe it hits 4 or 4.5 million sold best case scenario, which in the grand scheme of things isn't that big of a difference. The reality is that CD was the #14 album in worldwide sales in 2008, and it was only out for 5 weeks that year. It didn't do that poorly. Nobody is selling much more than CD sold these days, with the exception of a few pop culture phenomenons.

Edited July 3, 2012 by shotgunblues1978

[auad]

man, good topic.

i'm on CD right now. is strong and not easy.

[classicrawker]

It simply doesn't have much commercial appeal

I think this about sums it up...it is not party music so it did not get much radio play...not the kind of music you are inclined to play cruising down the highway window down sunroof open singing along with............

[finck6]

Just my opinion. I tend to ramble a bit, so I'll try and keep it short and hit my points.

While reading some posts on here it made me think back of the glory days of rock (for my generation anyway) the late 80's and early 90's.

Obvioulsy the album Chinese Democracy had a lot of baggage. Axl keeping the name, the break-up of the old band, the 14 million dollars and 14 year wait.

But another factor, I believe, is the transformation for Axl maturing as a songwriter. That is kind of a simple way to put it, but here is what I mean.

Back in the 80's and 90's, a group of bands really dominated the rock world. You can laugh at them now, but it was a glorious time for rock music fans. Today you guys complain, "where are the rock bands".....well, when I was a teen, rock bands were everywhere!!! GnR, BJ, Tesla, Warrant, Def Leppard, Scorpions, Tora Tora, Dangerous Toys, Cinderella, Metallica, Judas Priest, Areosmith, Winger, Skid Row, Alice Cooper, LA Guns, Slaughter, Ozzy,Firehouse, Vain, Slik Toxic, Wolfsbane, Babylon AD, MR. Big - that's just off the top of my head. That is about 20 bands right there that I bought every album that was released. Back in The Day, you literaly had 3-4 albums a month that you had to buy. Can you say the same thing today?

Anyway those bands put out a few albums of hair metal music, saw some success on the charts. But then grunge came along and changed the music scene. A lot of the hair metal bands then tried to put out albums that were a bit more serious - more adult - and those albums bombed on the charts. EVEN though musically, they were WAY stronger albums than the ones that were more popular.

I'm not talking about the bands changing their style to follow a trend (grunge). I'm talking bands just growing up. Starting off as 19 year old kids, partying away, releasing a couple "fun" albums that people loved........to then being 25 years old, maturing, getting off the drugs, and now writing some pretty strong and serious songs........but the general public went "NO, we want the hair and make-up and guitar solos and songs about cherry pie" and not really giving the band a chance anymore.

I saw that happen to several bands from that era. Which is a shame and shows how screwed up the mainstream music world is. A cheesy poppy song with a catchy hook will earn you millions......but a well written song, with meaningful lyrics, often does't get a second look. I can remember buying several albums and going "WOW, these guys have really improved have song writers and musicians. This album is way better than their cheesy hair metal pop rock, it's gonna be huge"...........and the album would completely tank. The fan who wanted Cherry Pie and Every Rose Has Its Thorns didn't move on with the band.

Some of the best albums/songs to come from the hairband era were songs/albums that were commercial failures and that spelled the end of many band's careers. Even though the albums were way better than the ones that were popular.

I think that played a part in the lack of overall success to the general public for Chinese Democracy.

Rock fans want the big anthems or catchy riffs.

Catcher and TWAT take you on a journey. They aren't songs to tap your feet to, songs that make girls get up and dance, songs that wannabee guitar players learn the main part to (all of us can play the catchy parts to jungle, SCOM, back in black, iron man, etc).

Even songs like Better, TIL, SOD, Prostitue, Madagascar - they take you on a journey. Better is the catchiest song on the album, but it still takes you on a trip. It tells a story. It isn't just "take me down to paradise city, where the grass is green and the girls are pretty".......Better tells a story, and you have to make an investment to go from start to finish.

I honestly believe that CD is too good of an album to be popular in today's music world. I'm not saying the average rock fan isn't intelligent enough to "get it". I'm saying that the average rock fan just doesn't want to invest himself in it.

Appetite is like your first time with a girl. Your first handjob, your first breast, your first making out.

Illusions is when you lost your virginity. The first time you have an apartment with a girlfriend.

Chinese Democracy is when you get married.

Some fans don't want to settle down and get married. They want to stay single with no attachments, different girls every night, no responsibilites. So while marriage and having kids is the greatest thing ever - some people are just not ready for that stage in life yet.

the reason: no proper promotion in advance or when the album dropped 2 bestbuy for the album from axl rose

[Madridista]

So... CD didn't do better because people chose not to grow up or because people chose not to listen to it carefully? I disagree. I think it flopped because it's JUST NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

[Apollo]

I am not certain that I agree with your premise that CD should have been a bigger success.

How come?

I guess I would somewhat agree to that, and with what Classic said, in terms that CD probably appeals more to the older crowd. Nickleback will sell more, because it appeals to the teenage crowd.

I listen to music while at work, while working out, while running. I can't even recall the last time I was cruising around with friends, blasting rock music.

In terms of the actually songs on CD, I really do think that several could have been hits.

I think that putting out Chinese Democracy as the first single was a bad move. As much of a bad move as Axl not doing publicity. It wasn't a catchy enough song to catch the general public's attention.

Even releasing Shacklers first would have drawn a "buzz" - positive and negative. But at least a buzz with the music world, just because of how different it is.

Personally, I would have went with Better first. Then Street of Dreams, as it sounds like classic GnR. Then Shackler's. Then maybe This I love.

Maybe I like the album more than most people - but to me, it is just as good as either Illusion. Not a combination of the two albums - but put all three albums side by side, and CD is just as good as either one. And those albums sold a combined 35 million and had about 10 singles released.

Better, SOD, Prostitute, IRS, Madagascar, Catcher and Twat all could have been Illusions songs!

[auad]

So... CD didn't do better because people chose not to grow up or because people chose not to listen to it carefully? I disagree. I think it flopped because it's JUST NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

this.

[Flayer]

I think there's definitely some merit to this idea, although even the more straightforward songs like Chinese Democracy and Shackler's Revenge didn't get the kind of success they should have. It's a variety of factors at play, but the overall audience out there is one of the main ones.

[Madridista]

I think you're all underestimating music fans. They're not all mindless morons who only wanna party. Most people out there can enjoy complex songs. Stop looking for alternative theories. CD was not succesful because it's not a good album. Period.

[Axl_morris]

I think the 13 years between albums and the guy with the leather hat was replaced by the guy with the KFC hat lost a lot of the fan base.

However, credit where credit it due, no promotion and no album out in that time with a new band and they still went and sold out world tours in 06.

[Apollo]

I think the 13 years between albums and the guy with the leather hat was replaced by the guy with the KFC hat lost a lot of the fan base.

However, credit where credit it due, no promotion and no album out in that time with a new band and they still went and sold out world tours in 06.

I agree about Bucket and Finck.

Great players, yes, no doubt. But seeing a guy with a mask and a chicken bucket on his head, and Robin in his full goth mode.....it was a little embarrasing.

How much did the "no promotion" thing really happen - in your mind? (Honest question, not being sarcastic).

When an album is generally called "the most anticipated album of all time"......can we really say it had no promotion?

Was there anybody who buys rock albums that didn't know CD came out?

The band had been touring off and on for 8 years. They performed at the MTV music awards. The album broke music records on myspace. EVERY music magazine reviewed the album.

Axl personally might not have done the tv talk show circuit to promote the album. But other than that, it was heavily promoted or featured in the entertainment world. It was still in Rolling Stone, it was still talked about on MTV and other music shows. I saw commercials on TV. Axl doing a 5-minute interview on David Letterman would have changed the success of the album?

I really think the "lack of promotion" thing is a bit of a myth. The most anticipated album of all time received a ton of promotion.

Plus the GnR name, having Axl in the band, years of touring, plus an album of great songs.....I still think it should have done better.

Edited July 3, 2012 by Groghan

[dalsh327]

I think the 13 years between albums and the guy with the leather hat was replaced by the guy with the KFC hat lost a lot of the fan base.

However, credit where credit it due, no promotion and no album out in that time with a new band and they still went and sold out world tours in 06.

I agree about Bucket and Finck.

Great players, yes, no doubt. But seeing a guy with a mask and a chicken bucket on his head, and Robin in his full goth mode.....it was a little embarrasing.

How much did the "no promotion" thing really happen - in your mind? (Honest question, not being sarcastic).

When an album is generally called "the most anticipated album of all time"......can we really say it had no promotion?

Was there anybody who buys rock albums that didn't know CD came out?

The band had been touring off and on for 8 years. They performed at the MTV music awards. The album broke music records on myspace. EVERY music magazine reviewed the album.

Axl personally might not have done the tv talk show circuit to promote the album. But other than that, it was heavily promoted or featured in the entertainment world. It was still in Rolling Stone, it was still talked about on MTV and other music shows. I saw commercials on TV. Axl doing a 5-minute interview on David Letterman would have changed the success of the album?

I really think the "lack of promotion" thing is a bit of a myth. The most anticipated album of all time received a ton of promotion.

Plus the GnR name, having Axl in the band, years of touring, plus an album of great songs.....I still think it should have done better.

It stopped being the "most anticipated album of all time" in the mid 2000s. People just wanted the damn thing out in 2008.

No promotion = no appearances, but all things considering, "Better" did get some radio play and Chinese Democracy worldwide did sell well. You can't just focus on how the US was doing at the time, they're globally famous, and easily don't have to play American venues anymore.

[Nick83]

Groghan, can you please give some album recommendations or specific examples? I need some new music to listen too.

[dario27]

simple, it took 14 years to make.

ChiDem was old the day of it's release. you can't cover that up with production.

i've heard some leaks apparently from '99.. and songs sound the same, it was all a big waste of time.

[Axl_morris]

- I think to get hits you have to win over the under 25's particularly teens. teenage girls aren't attracted to a 45 year old guy with braids that they're mum seen in concert, because 'thats mum's and dads music'. They want Justin Bieber, eminem and 50 cent with his top off in every video. So it's the age thing as well to consider. Who was the last artist to make a significant stamp in the charts who is over 50? I can't remember. So today's (or 2008's) young fans who make up most of the market are wanting those catchy songs, like there parents did when appetite was released, they never got those songs with Chinese Democracy. Many people on here are dying to hear TWAT live, IRS and other rarely played CD tracks, however, at the concerts it's flat and no one really bothers except the first couple of rows, they just want to hear the classics. The same could be said for the wider Guns n Roses audience when comparing new material to old.

-MTV awards was a good thing but the tour being cancelled fuck everything up. I don't know what the promotion was like in America, but the UK I never seen anything on TV about Chinese Democracy, not one thing. We have Kerrang and NME magazines who hate Axl with a passion. The next biggest magazine is Classic Rock, who release special issues of the magazine dedicated to that artist along with the album, they done it with slash and alice cooper recently, that would have been great, but nothing. America had the Best Buy thing going on, but that only catered for the US market.

- Now we might be a small island, but the UK music market is one of the most important, especially for touring, i've no idea why, but we have a venue in every city that will sell out a big artist, Michael Jackson planned to do 60 shows in london. Crazy. However, Chinese Democracy didn't even raise an eyebrow outside of the rock fan base over here.

- No music video, most bands release a single with a music video before the album drops, that's the main killer I think. Now we know there was plans to release a Better video, guesting Lars Ulrich.... Did he fuck that up some how? I remember Axl saying it would be released in the following week after his chat in the forum. Never did.

- Madagascar, Prostitute and TWAT have an almost Hip/hop beat to it with Chris Pitmans synths, this could have gone down well, however, no video, so MTV don't want to know, there for your teenage girl fan base isn't going to out there way to find it.

-Seriously, my girlfriends daughter is into One Direction, her passion almost compares to mine with GNR (and they have only been around for a year) and these guys only have one album out. They've sold out something like 20 arenas of about 12,000-15,000 attendance in the UK alone, Why? Because they are out there doing interviews, press releases and having special documentaries made about them with loads of staged screaming girls after them. Now, they're shit (who needs 5 singers in a band?) However Axl Rose could write the next Apeptite but he will lose out on number 1 to a young, well promoted, boy band....and that makes me fuckin sick.

However, like I mentioned in another thread, Axl's been on top of the world, does he really need to defend it? Or just be happy with what he's doing as he isn't struggling for sales or tickets for arenas. I met Axl in Glasgow, and he was in such a good mood he would have answered any of your questions, even the questions fans would have been scared to ask and I'm really gutted I didn't pluck up the courage to ask all the questions the fans desperately want to know. In regards of a new album being promoted well, It's his deck of cards and he'll play them how he wants too. Axl will know a lot more than we do about how to get a chart selling record, It' just is that what he was aiming is the question?

Edited July 3, 2012 by Axl_morris

[finck6]

everybody knows the latest guns n roses record chinese democracy is a commercial failure cause axl didn't promote

[Madridista]

it took Axl 14 years to make an album with songs only die hard fans are into, not because they're great but because we're fans and we will like what they do, whether it's good or not, and you guys wonder why CD wasn't a success? :rofl-lol:

In the time it took Axl to make CD, people forgot about GnR. GnR is a joke to most people. Period. Yes, people go to the shows, to watch the cover band play the songs they fell in love with back in the 80s and 90s. No significant amount of people go to the gigs to see them play the new songs. Nobody cares about GnR anymore.

Only the delusional fanbase, myself included, that post here, could think GnR is still important. They're not.

CD was not succesful because it has terrible songs. It's not about being mature or not. It's not about not having listened to it properly. It's about CD having songs nobody cares about.

If it'd been a great album, it'd have done better. But it's not, so it didn't.

Edited July 3, 2012 by Madridista

[finck6]

it took Axl 14 years to make an album with songs only die hard fans are into, not because they're great but because we're fans and we will like what they do, whether it's good or not, and you guys wonder why CD wasn't a success? :rofl-lol:

In the time it took Axl to make CD, people forgot about GnR. GnR is a joke to most people. Period. Yes, people go to the shows, to watch the cover band played the songs they fell in love with back in the 80s and 90s. No significant amount of people go to the gigs to see them play the new songs. Nobody cares about GnR anymore.

Only the delusional fanbase, myself included, that post here, could think GnR is still important. They're not.

CD was not succesful because it has terrible songs. It's not about being mature or not. It's not about not having listened to it properly. It's about CD having songs nobody cares about.

If it'd been a great album, it'd have done better. But it's not, so it didn't.

i told you why. axl didn't promote the stuffing out of it. whether in advance or when you could actually purchase the cd in bestbuy stores

[Madridista]

I don't think lack of promotion had anything to do with it. And I will tell you why. If you're a rock fan, you will buy the album and if you follow a band, you know they are making are record. If you follow a band, you know what they're doing. I don't need no promotion.

I've never been like OMG, Metallica made an album, but I didn't get it cause it got no promotion. If you are a fan, you know what they're doing.

The only thing that will keep me from buying an album is bad word of mouth. Word got around that CD was not THAT good. So people didn't buy it.

[finck6]

I don't think lack of promotion had anything to do with it. And I will tell you why. If you're a rock fan, you will buy the album and if you follow a band, you know they are making are record. If you follow a band, you know what they're doing. I don't need no promotion.

I've never been like OMG, Metallica made an album, but I didn't get it cause it got no promotion. If you are a fan, you know what they're doing.

The only thing that will keep me from buying an album is bad word of mouth. Word got around that CD was not THAT good. So people didn't buy it.

if axl promotes the fuck out of chinese democracy in advance using bestbuy's advance promotional plan....chinese democracy debut is #1. not #3

but what is this bad word of mouth? who bad mouthed the record? who from the gnr camp?

[Madridista]

Fans share their views on albums. At least where I come from. If I keep hearing an album sucks, chances are I won't buy it. I bought CD, because I am a fan, but when my friends asked me what I thought about it, I said, It's not that good. I'm sure others bought it and they said It sucks . I am sure comments like that will damage an album's reputation.

Edited July 3, 2012 by Madridista