CD II situation not optimal in my opinion...

[Young_Gun]

Disclaimer : All this is just my opinion, not based on any actual facts.

OK, so we are 4 years after the release of Chinese Democracy and I see threads and posts asking for a new record or new songs(either live or in studio form). I agree that it is not unreasonable to desire new material from a band that you enjoy, nor is it too early for another record because back in 2006 Axl claimed to be working on 32 songs of which 26 were almost done. Six years ago. It's safe to say there is at least another album of material either complete or near completion. Never mind the trilogy talk that Axl himself reiterated in 2002 but subsequently said it was 'someone else's idea".

With Chinese Democracy the record label were pressured to comply with Axl's procrastination and delays up until 2006 when they finally cut funding. The Greatest Hits release was also put out in order to recuperate the substantial investment. Guns N' Roses still had(and have) an obligation to the record label though and the record was incomplete at the time. We know that the band did finish up recording after the 2007 tour so this validates that notion. The label had Axl inbetween a rock and a hard place. Gun's owed Geffen a record but Geffen were not going to put it out unless they had collateral that their expense would be reimbursed via an upfront deal(Best Buy). The label have always wanted a classic GNR reunion above all else. This has exacerbated as time has gone on simply because New-Guns lost the momentum after 2002, that was their last chance to come out in a big way.

Chidem did have some good incentive going for it. It had unprecedented hype after over a decade of mystery, it was almost mystical. The Best Buy deal also alleviated alot of the hesitation on the record labels part and also liberated them of most of the distribution and promotional costs. Now in regards to the follow up record we have threeproblems;

1) No hype. Chidem came out and sold pretty well for a rock record in 2008 but it was not remembered by the general public. In fact many fans have a disdain or at least indifference to Chidem. What does this mean for the follow up? Outside of the hardcore new-GnR fans and the select old-school Guns fans who will buy anything Guns related, the follow up will not sell near the amount that Chidem did. It doesn't carry the mythical anticipation.

2) No exclusive deal. Axl went MIA after it was apparent the label were going to rush the release for black Friday with a botched booklet and limited promotion. I don't know or claim to know whether or not Axl was willing to play ball if the label were going to do a proper release. I do believe he had the intention to do some promotion himself had the label have not butchered the release. However, on paper, Best Buy was burnt by both label and Axl. They resorted to selling the remaining copies for $1.99US. What incentive do they have to do a similar deal for the follow up? Even worse, maybe they are contracted for another exclusive release but are contesting it in court after the other parties involved did not uphold their end of the deal. This could not only take alot of time to resolve but also turn off other chains like Walmart from wanting to deal with both Guns and Geffen.

3) Reunion. Especially after the Rock N' Roll Hall of fame situation, a reunion is as desired as ever, if not more. In the record's mind, a reunion tour(nevermind a reunion album) would absolutely demolish any revenue earned from 6 new-Guns records. We all know Axl would rather die than reunite the band but I don't think the label see things that way. We now know that every manager prior to Team Brazil(except possibly Merck) have at sometime pushed Axl into a reunion. The commerce side of all this(label, executives, managers) do not see the situation are black and white as Axl does so they try the reunion card because it will benefit everyone financially. When they do fail they either quit or get fired and are subsequently replaced. Their replacements eventually learn the same. But the label can live without putting out another New-Guns release. They are still making millions off Appetite, UYI, The Greatest Hits etc while totally neglecting New-Guns. I truly believe that the label are dead-locked with Axl. If Axl wants the labels support, he will have to cave(to some extent at least) in terms of a reunion or certain rights. He still owes them an album, whilst they have other artists who make them hundreds of millions without the headache. The label made back their money off Chidem(plus profit) and continue to make more from the Greatest Hits and Appetite. They have recurred their losses. Even if Axl were a free agent, the label financed most of the recordings prior to 2006 and the bandmember's salaries.

Just felt like putting this out there. Make of it what you will. Chances are there is some truth in all the speculation.

[DieselDaisy]

GN'R are about the only band which makes me feel sorry for a major label (i.e. Geffen-Interscope). I mean both Axl, Slash and Duff tried to block Greatest Hits but to be honest, my sympathies are completely with the record label.

[Randy Jesus]

Sales world wide were good. Just a bad situation in the USA, They should have went with walmart.

[username]

CD II situation not optimal in my opinion...

It's January 1st and you already made the understatement of 2013.

There is no CD2.

[James Bond]

I never understood the "they won't release it because it won't sell" argument. Money isn't in CD sales anymore, it's in touring. Even if the follow-up only sells 100 000 copies it doesn't matter. It's almost just an excuse to tour without it being labeled the same old thing. Lots of well established acts aren't selling that great anymore, some even less than Chinese Democracy sold. I just think worrying about sales is a silly reason to not want to record or release new music.

There's ways of doing it without being costly - independent release, record in Bumblefoot's studio, and so on. In other words, it could happen, but at this point it honestly seems like Axl has little desire to release something new and that is the ultimate factor, far above the sales issue.

[rosesforcure]

I only see contradictions in your speech. Ig you affirm Label still makes millions thru AFD n UYI then why worryong about CDII????

In adition CD II will contain songs recorded at that time and that bill is already been paid.

I think its all about Axls fucking maniac behaviour. He just have fun frustrating everybody and that stupid idea of " you cant release music people is not ready for". If he thinks by 2016 well be all ready to listen to his new shit WE ARE FUCKED!!!!!

Hope 2013 fat MSL got the balls to leak!!

Edited January 1, 2013 by rosesforcure

[izzydoezit]

good post. The only thing is that I don't think the label cares for CD 2 as long as they have the Greatest hits and the other GNR albums that still sell. The only person fucked is Axl. His carreer is basically over as a recording artist.

[saber_]

A wall of text [that I did actually read]

The situation is... not optimal? A little heavy on drama there, captain obvious.

I think you're overcomplicating it. Also, I think you're seeing what you want to see in some instances. "Everybody" wants a reunion now more than ever? Sorry pal, but the numbers GnR puts up in South America, India, and the Pacific Rim prove that people are willing to spend money to go see nΣwGuns. As many forum members continually point out, the band tours a lot. Thus, the tours are successful and profitable. Thus, there is incentive for the record company to want see the new record.

Furthermore Chinese Democracy had leaks prior to its release and was illegally downloaded A LOT. And it still managed to sell 3 million. That wasn't all due to "hype." People have the internet you know. People know Slash/Duff/Matt aren't in the band anymore- after the 2002 VMAs and Velvet Revolver's success and media scrutiny. A lot of people seem to in denial about Guns' global popularity. OP and others get so caught up in the anti-Guns hype and rhetoric that gets spewed around here about Guns' status in the U.S. Guess what? The U.S. is only one country, and there are countless examples of the global community being much more supportive and accepting of this current lineup.

All this excessive dramatic interpretation is unneeded. It boils down to whether Axl wants to make it happen or not. Even as an oft-accused Axl fanboy, even I can admit that right now, Axl doesn't want to make it happen. For whatever reason, he had a change of heart. But when he wants to make it happen, it will happen and we will get a new record.

[trqster]

I disagree...funding a new album launch costs money to the label - money it won't be wanting to spend after CD...

Fans generally don't give a shit about new albums from a nostalgia act like "new" GnR without Slash onboard, so the money and interest will always come from touring the greatest hits and Axl somehow seems to have realised that. Slash is just about as important as the GnR brand name goes.

I'd like though to see Axl releasing some new music under his own name or band of sorts.

Edited January 1, 2013 by trqster

[jman2000]

I only see contradictions in your speech. Ig you affirm Label still makes millions thru AFD n UYI then why worryong about CDII????

In adition CD II will contain songs recorded at that time and that bill is already been paid.

I think its all about Axls fucking maniac behaviour. He just have fun frustrating everybody and that stupid idea of " you cant release music people is not ready for". If he thinks by 2016 well be all ready to listen to his new shit WE ARE FUCKED!!!!!

Hope 2013 fat MSL got the balls to leak!!

MSL has the songs from CDII? I thought he just had the songs from Chinese Democracy before the release?

Edited January 1, 2013 by jman2000

[Young_Gun]

A wall of text [that I did actually read]

The situation is... not optimal? A little heavy on drama there, captain obvious.

I think you're overcomplicating it. Also, I think you're seeing what you want to see in some instances. "Everybody" wants a reunion now more than ever? Sorry pal, but the numbers GnR puts up in South America, India, and the Pacific Rim prove that people are willing to spend money to go see nΣwGuns. As many forum members continually point out, the band tours a lot. Thus, the tours are successful and profitable. Thus, there is incentive for the record company to want see the new record.

Furthermore Chinese Democracy had leaks prior to its release and was illegally downloaded A LOT. And it still managed to sell 3 million. That wasn't all due to "hype." People have the internet you know. People know Slash/Duff/Matt aren't in the band anymore- after the 2002 VMAs and Velvet Revolver's success and media scrutiny. A lot of people seem to in denial about Guns' global popularity. OP and others get so caught up in the anti-Guns hype and rhetoric that gets spewed around here about Guns' status in the U.S. Guess what? The U.S. is only one country, and there are countless examples of the global community being much more supportive and accepting of this current lineup.

All this excessive dramatic interpretation is unneeded. It boils down to whether Axl wants to make it happen or not. Even as an oft-accused Axl fanboy, even I can admit that right now, Axl doesn't want to make it happen. For whatever reason, he had a change of heart. But when he wants to make it happen, it will happen and we will get a new record.

Considering you used exact quotes, please show me where I stated that "everybody" wants a reunion more then ever?

where did i say chidem only sold well because of hype alone? where did i say that or even mention people thinking duff and slash were still in the band? you are fabricating obvious lies merely to make me to look like a hater of the band.

Seeing what I want to see? I wanna see a new Guns record with Bucket and Finck's songs on it. Wrong again.

God forbid anyone actually verbally mention that a reunion tour is more desired by the masses than a new-Guns album!!!! I loved Chidem more than Appetite and the UYI's but I'm not stupid enough to believe that the mainstream public WORLDWIDE wouldnt prefer a reunion.

Edited January 1, 2013 by Young_Gun

[izzydoezit]

I loved Chidem more than Appetite and the UYI's but I'm not stupid enough to believe that the mainstream public WORLDWIDE would prefer a reunion.

So you really believe the mainstream public would prefer a new nu-gnr album to a reunion?

[Young_Gun]

I loved Chidem more than Appetite and the UYI's but I'm not stupid enough to believe that the mainstream public WORLDWIDE would prefer a reunion.

So you really believe the mainstream public would prefer a new nu-gnr album to a reunion?

sorry was a typo. it's 6am here in melbourne lol. i fixed it.

[saber_]

Considering you used exact quotes, please show me where I stated that everybody does want a reunion more then ever?

I did not mean to libel you. I was using the quotes for emphasis instead of using italics or bold font. I apologize and I realize that it was my fault for misusing the quotes.

However, my response to your sentiment "a reunion is as desired as ever, if not more" remains the same. Now, I recognize that the reunion topic is something which is very near and dear to many fans' hearts, and that the record company is drooling for it. However, after the HOF, I think a lot of people saw their reunion hopes dwindle and vanish into the ether. I believe that the record company looks at the tour numbers and profits and realizes another album is something worth investing in. Just perhaps not worth double digit millions of dollars.

Seeing what I want to see? I wanna see a new Guns record with Bucket and Finck's songs on it. Wrong again.

I never said you didn't want to see a new record, did I? No I did not say that. You see what you want to see in terms of glass-half-empty thinking. That's all I meant. I didn't mean it as a slight or insult against you; after all you could easily say I see what I want to see too, mirite? But in your opening post, I saw several places where your jaded thinking has clouded your perception. Now to be clear: I'm not saying your perceptions are wrong (although I believe a few of them are), I'm just saying your overall attitude seems to be weighted down by your disapproval or disappointment in Axl and the band.

In essence, I think you see what you want to see when it comes to Axl's role in the situation. You seem to be implicitly discounting his power in all of this- you talk about record companies, reunions, business contracts, commercial successes and failures. All that stuff is less impactful than you would have us believe. All the rationalizing and explanations only obfuscate the matter. Here's the deal: If Axl wants to make a new record happen, it will happen.

God forbid anyone actually verbally mention that a reunion tour is more desired by the masses than a new-Guns album!!!! I loved Chidem more than Appetite and the UYI's but I'm not stupid enough to believe that the mainstream public WORLDWIDE would prefer a reunion.

This is an interesting set of statements. I can't tell if you were being sarcastic or not. But even I admit that the topic of a reunion is a powerful one that resonates with a lot of fans. EDIT: I see that you meant "wouldn't.." I'm glad you cleared that up because I was really confused there for minute. ; ) However, I'll leave my response as it was originally.

Glass-half-full man. As I said earlier, I think there is sufficient demand for a new nΣwGuns album to make it worthwhile to the record company. Maybe not as much demand as for a reunion tour/album, but enough that the record company has not forsaken Axl as you seem to be implying.

Edited January 1, 2013 by brainsaber

[Facekicker]

Axl is such a train wreck he'll probably do a reunion at some point and completely fuck it up as only he is capable of doing.

Completely ruining the legacy of the old band is probably his final gift to the fans.

[axl666]

I think that it's difficult to know whether lack of

interest in CD2 will be there no matter what, or whether it's because GNR hasn't done anything to

build interest. If it's the second one, that can be fixed with the right kind of promotion.

The problem with using CD as a measure is that they did no meaningful promotion of it and

had an exclusive deal that restricted access to the album for a lot of people. There's a lot of

things that potentially could have been done differently and I would assume that the response

would have been better if these things were done.

Edited January 1, 2013 by axl666

[Apollo]

Interesting post. Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts. Nice to see (most) people discussing GnR without all the normal insults.

I disagree with your part two comments about a rushed release and limited promotion.

According to all reports, Axl worked on CD for

13-14 years. And missed several deadlines. The only reason there was a rushed release is because of Axl's refusal to turn in the material in a timely fashion. That is all on him. The label invested more time and money on CD than any album in history. At some point they just got tired of Axl's procrastination.

I also don't understand why people say the album got limited promotion. There were tv commercials, which rarely happens anymore. There were print ads. The MySpace free listen. The Dr Pepper thing. Every major magazine and newspaper talked about the release and then reviewed the album. Three singles were released. What more promotion could there have been?????

Oh.......one more line of promotion. AXL could have done some!!!!!!! Again, it seems like you are blaming the label when it is clear that Axl is the one who dropped the ball.

CD was a great album and sold a respectful three million albums. Not what Axl and the label hoped for, but still a respect total.

Tour numbers are slowly declining every year. They were the 73 rated tour in 2011 and probably won't be much higher in 2012. IMO, the only way to shoot new life, energy and momentum into the band is by releasing new music.

Most bands love sharing their music with their fans. As my favorite singer, it sucks that Axl doesn't care about that aspect of the music world.

We are talking about rock music. I hope someday Axl decides to share his music with his millions of fans. One day he sits down in his mansion, looks at his bank account, thinks about the dream life he has and thinks "because of these millions of fans that have supported me - financially and emotionally - some for 25 years, I'm gonna let them know how much I appreciate their loyal support and open up my music vault."

Axl is still one of the best singers out there. He has surrounded himself with a talented band. But as long as he continues to tour the old bands material, people are going to continue griping about him keeping the name, and calling them a cover band.

I sure hope that Axl gives the current band a chances to shine with their own material. They deserve the opportunity.

Fans would love new music. Band members want to make new music. The label would love new music. Axl and Team Brazil are the only ones who aren't interested.

[wasted]

CD seems like a good banner to keep releasing material under and tour off of. But maybe CD is infamous enough now.

Maybe the next one will be more electronica and aggressive and its not the same theme as CD so a different title makes. Axl said he saw it as a double so...

CD seems like the break up album you have to do so you can start dating 23 year old models again.

[Russel Nash]

I really think that a double album now will make everyone happy again. Even if some song are just fillers.

[Young_Gun]

Considering you used exact quotes, please show me where I stated that everybody does want a reunion more then ever?

I did not mean to libel you. I was using the quotes for emphasis instead of using italics or bold font. I apologize and I realize that it was my fault for misusing the quotes.

However, my response to your sentiment "a reunion is as desired as ever, if not more" remains the same. Now, I recognize that the reunion topic is something which is very near and dear to many fans' hearts, and that the record company is drooling for it. However, after the HOF, I think a lot of people saw their reunion hopes dwindle and vanish into the ether. I believe that the record company looks at the tour numbers and profits and realizes another album is something worth investing in. Just perhaps not worth double digit millions of dollars.

Seeing what I want to see? I wanna see a new Guns record with Bucket and Finck's songs on it. Wrong again.

I never said you didn't want to see a new record, did I? No I did not say that. You see what you want to see in terms of glass-half-empty thinking. That's all I meant. I didn't mean it as a slight or insult against you; after all you could easily say I see what I want to see too, mirite? But in your opening post, I saw several places where your jaded thinking has clouded your perception. Now to be clear: I'm not saying your perceptions are wrong (although I believe a few of them are), I'm just saying your overall attitude seems to be weighted down by your disapproval or disappointment in Axl and the band.

In essence, I think you see what you want to see when it comes to Axl's role in the situation. You seem to be implicitly discounting his power in all of this- you talk about record companies, reunions, business contracts, commercial successes and failures. All that stuff is less impactful than you would have us believe. All the rationalizing and explanations only obfuscate the matter. Here's the deal: If Axl wants to make a new record happen, it will happen.

God forbid anyone actually verbally mention that a reunion tour is more desired by the masses than a new-Guns album!!!! I loved Chidem more than Appetite and the UYI's but I'm not stupid enough to believe that the mainstream public WORLDWIDE would prefer a reunion.

This is an interesting set of statements. I can't tell if you were being sarcastic or not. But even I admit that the topic of a reunion is a powerful one that resonates with a lot of fans. EDIT: I see that you meant "wouldn't.." I'm glad you cleared that up because I was really confused there for minute. ; ) However, I'll leave my response as it was originally.

Glass-half-full man. As I said earlier, I think there is sufficient demand for a new nΣwGuns album to make it worthwhile to the record company. Maybe not as much demand as for a reunion tour/album, but enough that the record company has not forsaken Axl as you seem to be implying.

Ahhh I see what you mean now. I withdraw any incorrect statements. I just gathered from the tone and "OP and others get so caught up in the anti-Guns hype and rhetoric.." that I thought you were labelling me anti-newGnR. All good now.

However I do not believe the ball is totally in Axl's court in regards to a new record. If my attitude was due to my disappointment with Axl I would be placing the blame on him fully, but I do believe he wants a follow up album out and has wanted one out for over a year. Of course I have no definite proof of this. You may be right in the the HOF situation did deflate the enthusiasm for a reunion but doesn't mean the actual demand has diminished. Just thought I would put my thoughts out, beats talking about whether or not Axl will bring back the shorts in 2013.

[volcano62]

Disclaimer : All this is just my opinion, not based on any actual facts.

OK, so we are 4 years after the release of Chinese Democracy and I see threads and posts asking for a new record or new songs(either live or in studio form). I agree that it is not unreasonable to desire new material from a band that you enjoy, nor is it too early for another record because back in 2006 Axl claimed to be working on 32 songs of which 26 were almost done. Six years ago. It's safe to say there is at least another album of material either complete or near completion. Never mind the trilogy talk that Axl himself reiterated in 2002 but subsequently said it was 'someone else's idea".

With Chinese Democracy the record label were pressured to comply with Axl's procrastination and delays up until 2006 when they finally cut funding. The Greatest Hits release was also put out in order to recuperate the substantial investment. Guns N' Roses still had(and have) an obligation to the record label though and the record was incomplete at the time. We know that the band did finish up recording after the 2007 tour so this validates that notion. The label had Axl inbetween a rock and a hard place. Gun's owed Geffen a record but Geffen were not going to put it out unless they had collateral that their expense would be reimbursed via an upfront deal(Best Buy). The label have always wanted a classic GNR reunion above all else. This has exacerbated as time has gone on simply because New-Guns lost the momentum after 2002, that was their last chance to come out in a big way.

Chidem did have some good incentive going for it. It had unprecedented hype after over a decade of mystery, it was almost mystical. The Best Buy deal also alleviated alot of the hesitation on the record labels part and also liberated them of most of the distribution and promotional costs. Now in regards to the follow up record we have threeproblems;

1) No hype. Chidem came out and sold pretty well for a rock record in 2008 but it was not remembered by the general public. In fact many fans have a disdain or at least indifference to Chidem. What does this mean for the follow up? Outside of the hardcore new-GnR fans and the select old-school Guns fans who will buy anything Guns related, the follow up will not sell near the amount that Chidem did. It doesn't carry the mythical anticipation.

2) No exclusive deal. Axl went MIA after it was apparent the label were going to rush the release for black Friday with a botched booklet and limited promotion. I don't know or claim to know whether or not Axl was willing to play ball if the label were going to do a proper release. I do believe he had the intention to do some promotion himself had the label have not butchered the release. However, on paper, Best Buy was burnt by both label and Axl. They resorted to selling the remaining copies for $1.99US. What incentive do they have to do a similar deal for the follow up? Even worse, maybe they are contracted for another exclusive release but are contesting it in court after the other parties involved did not uphold their end of the deal. This could not only take alot of time to resolve but also turn off other chains like Walmart from wanting to deal with both Guns and Geffen.

3) Reunion. Especially after the Rock N' Roll Hall of fame situation, a reunion is as desired as ever, if not more. In the record's mind, a reunion tour(nevermind a reunion album) would absolutely demolish any revenue earned from 6 new-Guns records. We all know Axl would rather die than reunite the band but I don't think the label see things that way. We now know that every manager prior to Team Brazil(except possibly Merck) have at sometime pushed Axl into a reunion. The commerce side of all this(label, executives, managers) do not see the situation are black and white as Axl does so they try the reunion card because it will benefit everyone financially. When they do fail they either quit or get fired and are subsequently replaced. Their replacements eventually learn the same. But the label can live without putting out another New-Guns release. They are still making millions off Appetite, UYI, The Greatest Hits etc while totally neglecting New-Guns. I truly believe that the label are dead-locked with Axl. If Axl wants the labels support, he will have to cave(to some extent at least) in terms of a reunion or certain rights. He still owes them an album, whilst they have other artists who make them hundreds of millions without the headache. The label made back their money off Chidem(plus profit) and continue to make more from the Greatest Hits and Appetite. They have recurred their losses. Even if Axl were a free agent, the label financed most of the recordings prior to 2006 and the bandmember's salaries.

Just felt like putting this out there. Make of it what you will. Chances are there is some truth in all the speculation.

"No Hype"

It will get the hype most rock records get whenever it comes out

"No exclusive deal"

Is it really needed?

"Reunion"

If anything the RNRHOF has solodified the fact that a runion will never happen.

[sweetness]

"Reunion"

If anything the RNRHOF has solodified the fact that a runion will never happen.

Not really, people said the same thing after the whole Van Halen debacle.

Just sayin

[Young_Gun]

"Reunion"

If anything the RNRHOF has solodified the fact that a runion will never happen.

Not really, people said the same thing after the whole Van Halen debacle.

Just sayin

Good point, and about The Eagles too.

[izzydoezit]

Axl is way more stubborn than any of those guys, and in addition to that he is surrounded and managed by mentally ill people like Beta. (read about Marc Canter's son Bar Mitzvah incident to realize what kind of person we are dealing here with...)

[username]

"Reunion"

If anything the RNRHOF has solodified the fact that a runion will never happen.

Not really, people said the same thing after the whole Van Halen debacle.

Just sayin

Good point, and about The Eagles too.

And Pink Floyd.

But thinking a GnR reunion is realistic borders the delusional. Just give it up.