Do you think Axl bottled ‘Chinese Democracy’ in 2004 because of Velvet Revolver?

[wasted]

Does anyone else remember the story of Axl playing the entire album for a famous record exec around 2002 and the exec saying "this one track's good, the rest is shit"?

That couldn't have helped things.

I think that was when RTB was called in. I could see an old school producer think Silkworms et la to be not really great songs, even not songs. Stuff like SOD, Madagascar, TWAT, TIL, Catcher seem pretty solid. But if the epics are too long then SOD is the only song.

[Stro]

Well, that Bucket left in 2004 due to nothing going on with the band, that alone makes me think that CD probably wasn't scheduled to come out in 2004. Otherwise, he probably wouldn't have left when he did.

[nambis]

Is there any evidence he album was going to be called 2000 intentions? I thought that was just Internet rumor, just like cock-a-roach soup.

[Projected]

Well, that Bucket left in 2004 due to nothing going on with the band, that alone makes me think that CD probably wasn't scheduled to come out in 2004. Otherwise, he probably wouldn't have left when he did.

I think he probably left because that very same reason. Album and tour being pushed furhter. So Buckethead's departure isn't the reason for the bottling, but vice versa.

[tkarmy]

doug goldstein said in 99 or 2000 (can't remember) the music was 99% done and vocals 80%... then fucking RTB had to come in and make then re-record everything. It should have come out in late 2000, early 2001 when they hit RIR.... things would be alot different.... so disappointing. I love chinese but shit I would have loved it 7 years earlier

[wasted]

was it the 2002 album that Ezrin said only had 3 songs on it?

I could imagine Bucket songs not really going over well to a rock producer.

[Rovim]

was it the 2002 album that Ezrin said only had 3 songs on it?

I could imagine Bucket songs not really going over well to a rock producer.

Always wondered what 3 songs Ezrin thought were good. It's hard to guess, cause there are songs we didn't get to hear.

I'd like to think Catcher is one of them tho.

Edit: Probably Street Of Dreams too.

Edited January 8, 2013 by Rovim

[wasted]

was it the 2002 album that Ezrin said only had 3 songs on it?

I could imagine Bucket songs not really going over well to a rock producer.

Always wondered what 3 songs Ezrin thought were good. It's hard to guess, cause there are songs we didn't get to hear.

I'd like to think Catcher is one of them tho.

Edit: Probably Street Of Dreams too.

Did Tom Zutaut say Atlas Shrugged should be the first single.

I'd go with CD, SOD, Madagascar...Catcher and TWAT....TIL.

[Roush]

Josh Freese was on record to say "the title track was much more rocking in its demo stage". I imagine that applies to a lot of songs.

[wasted]

They way they did Chi Dem at first was much more grungey and loose with hilarious keyboards. but they must have redone it again with RTB and then again tightening it up around Ron time. Maybe each time they worked on it new songs would work better.

Chi Dem, The Blues, Catcher in the early stages. But to me the final album Shackler's, ITW, Scraped, Sorry sound the most assured and finished, like on another level.

[Rovim]

They way they did Chi Dem at first was much more grungey and loose with hilarious keyboards. but they must have redone it again with RTB and then again tightening it up around Ron time. Maybe each time they worked on it new songs would work better.

Chi Dem, The Blues, Catcher in the early stages. But to me the final album Shackler's, ITW, Scraped, Sorry sound the most assured and finished, like on another level.

Then you have Bucket coming in and totally elevating There Was A Time with his outro, or giving I.R.S that killer solo in the end there.

Every note in the song Chinese Democracy that comes from Bucket's guitar is the right note to my ears. The solo in the middle right after Finck's is underrated. Total blast of energy.

[Freddie Mercury's Ghost]

I wonder if we'll ever get a CD-quality demo of "Catcher in the Rye" with Brian May's guitarwork.

[wasted]

They way they did Chi Dem at first was much more grungey and loose with hilarious keyboards. but they must have redone it again with RTB and then again tightening it up around Ron time. Maybe each time they worked on it new songs would work better.

Chi Dem, The Blues, Catcher in the early stages. But to me the final album Shackler's, ITW, Scraped, Sorry sound the most assured and finished, like on another level.

Then you have Bucket coming in and totally elevating There Was A Time with his outro, or giving I.R.S that killer solo in the end there.

Every note in the song Chinese Democracy that comes from Bucket's guitar is the right note to my ears. The solo in the middle right after Finck's is underrated. Total blast of energy.

I have been listening to CD with some Sony MDR-W08 headphones and you can hear the shit out of it. I find it hard to really find fault with any of the songs. I think the last final album is better than the early stuff. It has a more metallic finish, a harder more modern edge. The Blues became much tougher and less campy as SOD. Catcher is definitely better than the demo, the demo may have worked on UYI but next to ITW it needs to be more Dream Theatre.

I think the only change is I'd put Riad before Scraped and maybe ITW before SOD. At the moment the track listing has symmetry, which is always nice.

[Rovim]

I was surprised at how many cool riffs and guitar parts are there and you can really hear all of that with headphones on.

It's more that the production is rich and many instruments are stacked together to form the sound that you might think there isn't a badass riff there, but usually there is.

People criticize Bumble's work on Chinese, but he made it sound way more fluid imo. I don't think I would change much if I could, now if only we'll get to hear the second half I'll be satisfied for a while.

[wasted]

I was surprised at how many cool riffs and guitar parts are there and you can really hear all of that with headphones on.

It's more that the production is rich and many instruments are stacked together to form the sound that you might think there isn't a badass riff there, but usually there is.

People criticize Bumble's work on Chinese, but he made it sound way more fluid imo. I don't think I would change much if I could, now if only we'll get to hear the second half I'll be satisfied for a while.

What Ron added to Chi Dem was sick. When I heard for the first time on that radio show thing I nearly shit my pants. I'd heard the opening riff before somehow. I think he did something on ITW too. Ron's solos are pretty awesome too.

I only just found that Muse like guitar spiral thing on Shackler's. Also that piano part in TWAT is awesome.

I'm hoping to find out what they did once they escaped to freedom.

[Guest NewGNRnOldGNR]

Well, that Bucket left in 2004 due to nothing going on with the band, that alone makes me think that CD probably wasn't scheduled to come out in 2004. Otherwise, he probably wouldn't have left when he did.

Buckethead bailed in March, the same month that Velvet Revolver secured their first hit. Coincidence possibly. But perhaps Axl, on the back of Velvet's newfound chart success, was reluctant to engage in a music war, of course created by the media, when it became apparent 2004 was going to be Slash and co's year, as such.

[Nosaj Thing]

Well, that Bucket left in 2004 due to nothing going on with the band, that alone makes me think that CD probably wasn't scheduled to come out in 2004. Otherwise, he probably wouldn't have left when he did.

Buckethead bailed in March, the same month that Velvet Revolver secured their first hit. Coincidence possibly. But perhaps Axl, on the back of Velvet's newfound chart success, was reluctant to engage in a music war, of course created by the media, when it became apparent 2004 was going to be Slash and co's year, as such.

If that's true I'd say that's a stupid reason to hold back the release of your most "lovely" album.

[wasted]

Axl has issues with the media. They would have loved to pit VR vs GNR for one reason only.

[Guest NewGNRnOldGNR]

If that's true I'd say that's a stupid reason to hold back the release of your most "lovely" album.

It's not that silly really when you think about it. Chinese Democracy, not that it would anyway considering the major media prejudice, would never have been taken at face value if released in a timeframe corresponding with Velvet Revolver's chart success. The media would have taken focus away from the the objectivity of the album, directly pitting the creativity of Axl and Slash/Duff/Matt against one and other. Which is unfair really when the two are essentially apples and oranges. One defined mainstream rock of 2004 and the other a complete complexity made up of a whole umbrella of genres.

[James Bond]

If axl was smart he would if released it the same day. Or at least the same day as libertad. See what sold better.

I think I can agree with that, although let's go back to 2004 and have him release it the same day as Contraband. Sure, the media would label the whole thing "Axl vs. Slash" much to the dismay of Axl but that would be a hell of a free marketing campaign. Both guys would no doubt benefit from it, as Guns fans would likely pick up both albums anyways. The hype would have been ridiculous. First new music from Axl and the new Guns N' Roses line-up as well as the first dose of new music from Slash's new band.

In retrospect, there were a lot of missed opportunities for Axl in the 2000s. I honestly think his last chance for the album to really take off was after the 2006 tour. The tour sold well, it was completed, Axl sounded great and there was lots of buzz.

[HisRoyalSweetness]

here's another layer to the onion... is it possible that slash knew axl was finished with chinese democracy? maybe word god back to him through the grapevine, so he decided to assemble VR because he knew axl would get spooked and turn tail for another few years.

[Mr. Dude]

2002 was meant to be the year?

but GNR were pretty silent when Contraband came out. I think what kicked off VR was seeing Axl at the VMAs with a new band, which ironically seemed to put things on hold.

I could see Axl not wanting to promote VR by being around for the media to maul him. Seeing as Axl had most to lose it makes sense. Slash and boys could hand towels out in the showers of Auschwitz and still get a pass.

2002 was meant to be the year?

but GNR were pretty silent when Contraband came out. I think what kicked off VR was seeing Axl at the VMAs with a new band, which ironically seemed to put things on hold.

I could see Axl not wanting to promote VR by being around for the media to maul him. Seeing as Axl had most to lose it makes sense. Slash and boys could hand towels out in the showers of Auschwitz and still get a pass.

Ain't it the truth.

[Chris 55]

There is debate even today about the beginnings of Chinese Democracy

That's so sad

[SOH]

Never really thought about it, but yeah maybe. Knowing Axl's deep seeded hatred for Slash and how he obsessively kept an eye on VR while they were making their debut, maybe he felt he had to one up them and add more layers to the songs?

I say that because how many songs on Chinese Democracy did they actually write between 04 and 08? In those years they were still tweaking as far as I know.

Shackler's Revenge, or at least the lyrics, were written between 2007-08 because they're about an event that happened in 2007. If The World was also different on record than the version on the Body of Lies soundtrack, I think some of the lyrics were changed.

[Estranged Coma]

I think the greatest failure was not getting it out before the VR album and also the Greatest hits album. I think VR definitely benefited as being the first "legit" release by a post gnr lineup (even though it was just slash and duff). I mean that's exactly why I bought it back then. I was young had just started to learn about gnr and was like awesome this is from former gnr guys, so I bought it. Also I bought greatest hits being the young casual fan I was at the time. If Axl would have put out on album (or two) I would have been buying those instead. By 2008 I had already become a huge gnr fan so by default I bought axls album.