Axl's Single Most Fatal Error

[Millions]

Everything could have been so different. Everything. If Axl had just did one thing differently.

If he could just have trusted a producer enough to hand over the tapes of the Chinese Democracy sessions, and let someone with an actual talent and ear for producing finish the album off.

The album was basically ready 8 years before it came out. After that, no significant changes were made, just pointless tinkering. Some would even argue that all the production on the album was a negative thing, it killed the rawness and energy of the initial sessions.

If he had a producer he could trust right now, Axl could get on with writing a new album, instead of fiddling around with the dials as he listens to, and tries to cut-and-paste 'Guitar Solo 137' into a ten year old song.

The Beatles wrote and released their entire catalogue in 10 years. In 8 years, Axl fiddled around with the sub-bass levels, and 'drum-sounds' of Chinese Democracy. Is it really worth it? After listening to the messy, over-produced, lifeless results, Axl's talents clearly lie in an area other than producing. All those years for that?

He needs to get in a producer he can work with, and can trust, and then get back to what he's good at - writing songs. If not, this ten-year bottleneck is just going to get even bigger - and the current band will have no hope of ever releasing music as GNR.

[Val22]

I think you are right in saying Axl needs to get people he can work with without messing with his creative jucies, but I don't think it was a "fatal" error since CH was released and no one died.

Look up the word "fatal". Because I don't think it really applies to the release of CD one way or the other.

Fatal to me would be it could have ended Axl and GNR's career, which it didn't and hasn't.

[saber_]

Izzy should produce the album.

[Millions]

Fair enough, my pedantic friend. Maybe no one died, but it would be a very foolish man who would claim GNR aren't on life support. Are you claiming that?

[Ragnar]

Why did n`t he allow Mike Clink to produce Chinese is beyond me

[dalsh327]

Why did n`t he allow Mike Clink to produce Chinese is beyond me

The type of music he wanted to do was a departure from what Mike would've been doing. If Interscope hadn't taken over Geffen when they did, it would've been out a decade ago.

I just think there was a lot of back and forth that slowed things down, but I think Robin going back and forth between NIN and GNR didn't help, and Buckethead's quitting was a big hit against the band. Like I said, the 2002 tour being scrapped caused a lot of fans to jump ship, and I guess things in the band weren't great, either.

[GeetarMikey]

Bob Rock would have been an interesting, if a bit safe, choice. Bob Ezrin could have worked quite well!

[AndreCC]

Bob Rock would have been an interesting, if a bit safe, choice. Bob Ezrin could have worked quite well!

Fuck Yeah! Bob is the best!

[rckn]

Ezrin tried as did many others. Nobody seems not to understand the real

reason.

[liers]

I remember hearing that doug goldstien gave Axl samples of work from producers who could work on the album in 2001 and axl refused to listen to them and ran the discs over with his car.

[Facekicker]

Meeting Beta.

[alfierose]

I think it was having the sole responsibility for the name that was one of the biggest problems. So much pressure to deliver something worthy, personally I think CD was but it is difficult to see that for yourself when you are close to the project. So much temptation to tinker a little bit longer. I'm a writer so I kind of understand the mentality of something never feeling quite finished enough and it can be quite crippling if you let it.

[rocknroll41]

On topic, I remember listening to the Beaven demos from 1999 and saying to myself that had Buckethead and Brain just added parts to those cuts and then they mix those takes and release it as the record around 2000 or whatever it would've been fine. Still not great, but fine. Having Roy Thomas Baker re-record everything was so not necessary.

The ideal thing to do really would've been to either let go of the Guns N' Roses name so that people's expectations wouldn't of been so high or keep Mike Clink so that the songs would've sounded closer to old Guns. If not that, then at least promote and focus mainly on the songs that sound the most like the old material to create a sense of familiarity.

For me, Better and IRS are the best songs on the record cause they sound closest to old GNR. So I think those tracks should've been the lead singles and not Chinese Democracy and Shackler's Revenge. But in the end of the day it's just a record, a decent one as a matter of fact, so it doesn't matter. I'm just throwing out my opinion. Not dissing the band or anything like that.

Edited February 24, 2013 by rocknroll41

[AndreCC]

To me the songs that sound like Old GNR are This i Love and Street of Dreams.

Axl used the name because he can make more money with it. He would never sell 5 million copies with a band called Axl Rose or as a solo artist.

Axl went into a different approach and the music has quality, but it was terribly mixed. Whoever mixed the album did a lousy job. I think Axl should have tried to re-record everything. I mean after all this years of adding bits and pieces to the songs, when they found the perfect tune and the perfect sound for the songs and thought to release it. They could have just done all the drum, guitar, bass, vocals sound effects again, so it didn't sound so layered or wrongly mixed.

[powerwave]

Why did n`t he allow Mike Clink to produce Chinese is beyond me

Mike Clink is a supporter of Slash the Devil

Anyway the problem with CD is not the production. The problem is terrible lyrics and crap songs written by Paul and Diz. The only redeeming factor is Buckethead, and he left.

[iftheworld]

opinions are like assholes...

[Screamin' Demon]

I was just thinking about the demos before finding this thread. The demos were certainly far better than the final cuts for the album. The former are actually enjoyable to listen to, are raw and have serious conviction. The latter are overpolished monstrosities. Axl's pretty much wasted 8 years on polishing the songs and on the contrary the final cuts were miles behind the demos. The record company should have been just forced a release in 2000.

Edited February 24, 2013 by Screamin' Demon

[T.wa.T]

The rawness of the leaks is what makes them great. If they had just a few more touches to them who knows what could have been. Over production seems to be a pet peeve of Axls, it needs to be scaled back a little.

Being that its his music,I think Axl should have total control over who he's working with in the studio, so I guess it will always be done that way.

I don't think Beta does anything special, other then keep people who might have some constructive criticism away from Axl. His career won't end if she went bye byes.

I blame Team Brazils lack of knowledge in regards to the music industry for many of the delays, along with the label and of course Axl for procrastinating.

[jimb0]

Axl Fatal Error 1: Procrastination.

Axl Fatal Error 2: Quantity over Quality.

You can put five different guitarists on a song, but if there isn't a great riff behind it, it doesn't change anything. I love the piano driven demo of Twat. So much simpler than that whole Jumanji African Opening.

[DieselDaisy]

I do not understand how, in 1999 he said he wanted to do an 'appetite' thing, yet, Chinese Democracy sounds nothing like Appetite. It is obvious why. Appetite is five guys, recording raw, in one month. CD is ten guys, recording overdubs, over a ten year period. If Axl truly believes CD sounds like Appetite, clearly Axl's conception of Appetite is very different from everyone else's.

[jthunders13]

I do not understand how, in 1999 he said he wanted to do an 'appetite' thing, yet, Chinese Democracy sounds nothing like Appetite. It is obvious why. Appetite is five guys, recording raw, in one month. CD is ten guys, recording overdubs, over a ten year period. If Axl truly believes CD sounds like Appetite, clearly Axl's conception of Appetite is very different from everyone else's.

The songs for Appetite were demo'd and written in many cases years, and played live for a long time before they were ever recorded. It's not like they went in the studio and just recorded that album in any way. Also, in 1999 he said the easiest thing would have been to do an appetite thing, but he was referring to the 1996 period when the original band was still still to write, not the 1999 band that had already moved on.

Edited February 24, 2013 by jthunders13

[wasted]

It seems like with 90s musicians that played on CD getting RATM and Faith No More/nirvana production team makes sense. Considering they were going for a new sound. Production seems like a loose term. RTB seemed like he came in to give the record some grandness.

[jthunders13]

I think also the opinion that they should have just released the 2002 or 2006 versions of the songs makes no sense. Just listen to the intros to the first versions of IRS or Better and you realize those songs still needed some work. Maybe they got a little too much in the end...but they were in no way complete the way we first heard them.

[bacardimayne]

He should have done a complete vocal overhaul. Some of the vocals are so pathetically obviously tooled with it's disgusting. That combined with the fact that some vocals in the same songs sound like they were recorded ten years apart is a problem.

The vocal style he used on Bach's Angel Down album might not have worked for every song, but it would've been more well received for songs like Catcher, Shackler's and IRS than what we got.

Edited February 24, 2013 by bacardimayne

[jellyzero]

The biggest error in my opinion was letting Robin walk after his initial contract expired in 1999. The original version of the album was actually close to being finished when Robin left and Axl went crazy ordering all of his parts erased. After that, the search for the ultimate replacement for Slash began which took a while until he found Buckethead (and all the member and producer changes that followed). I like Bucket's contributions but would I rather have 2-3 GNR albums by this point over Buckethead, Bumblefoot, and Frank Ferrer appearing on one record? Yes.