MSL discusses Guns n Roses

[Dariablue]

Come on Soulmonster, you honestly don't think Axl cares what people think of him? This is the guy that would become so upset people had to hide reviews from him, to this day information is still filtered.

[SoulMonster]

Come on Soulmonster, you honestly don't think Axl cares what people think of him? This is the guy that would become so upset people had to hide reviews from him, to this day information is still filtered.

If you had read what I wrote, you would have seen that I suggest the idea that he doesn't care so much about what we think about him, but cares fiercely about what we think of his music.

[AndreCC]

Everyone cares deep down what other people think. It's only human, even if you don't admit it, however you might care about it but not give it a lot of importance. Especially when those opinions are biased or without knowledge.

[D-GenerationX]

He is a haughty guy and feels offended by what Slash has said, yes. But he doesn't care that much what the general public thinks him, at least not enough to force him into actually doing something about it, like arguing his side of the story. I don't see the conflict between these two things.

If that is true, why did he not lay it all on the line for the new album and let it sink or swim on its own merit?

He did no promotion and ran and hid for a year out of fear and self doubt. These are not traits of a guy that doesn't care what people think.

[Tom2112]

Bonus addition maybe, but I can't imagine Universal getting behind the release - mainly because the GA generally consider it a flop even with pretty decent sales of 3-4 million world wide.

Open to a bonus edition, not really interested in a remaster as it sounds great as is... unless he's going to take out a portion of the guitar voodoo. I hope that if there's any work in the GnR camp it's t focus on new material.

At the end of the day this is another pie in the sky thread based on almost nothing so... nothing to get worked up about. neither is the lack of activity now that I think of it (that tour was quite long).

[ChineseIRS]

It seems that MSL has the whole document and these are just two extracts he posted. I´ve also wondered why Axl never showed this to clear all this and to prove he wasn´t wrong years ago.

Frankly, I don't think Axl really cares that much. He cares about his music, obsessively, and wants us to like it, but as for himself, he couldn't care less about what we think.

Yes but considering that he has been blamed for the old band´s break up, of being a machiavellian liar..etc

Again, I don't think he cares that much about these things. If he did he would spend more time telling his story.

"truth is the truth hurts, dont you agree? Its harder to live with the truth about you than to live with the lies about me."

[AndreCC]

It seems that MSL has the whole document and these are just two extracts he posted. I´ve also wondered why Axl never showed this to clear all this and to prove he wasn´t wrong years ago.

Frankly, I don't think Axl really cares that much. He cares about his music, obsessively, and wants us to like it, but as for himself, he couldn't care less about what we think.

Yes but considering that he has been blamed for the old band´s break up, of being a machiavellian liar..etc

Again, I don't think he cares that much about these things. If he did he would spend more time telling his story.

"truth is the truth hurts, dont you agree? Its harder to live with the truth about you than to live with the lies about me."

Welcome back and great post

[saber_]

Oh please, when Axl came on here he sure as shit didn't act like someone who didn't care about telling his side of the story. In fact he posted a nice long post about this very topic, when all he had to do was post the above document. And don't try and tell me he hasn't got a copy of the original document.

I just don't think the above is it. More bullshit from MSL to promote his site and all you suckers are falling for it. You lot never learn.

Boy you guys are really shortcircuiting left and right.

Could you please elaborate on what exactly is "bullshit" and what exactly we are falling for? I'm dying to hear this conspiracy theory.

[SoulMonster]

He is a haughty guy and feels offended by what Slash has said, yes. But he doesn't care that much what the general public thinks him, at least not enough to force him into actually doing something about it, like arguing his side of the story. I don't see the conflict between these two things.

If that is true, why did he not lay it all on the line for the new album and let it sink or swim on its own merit?

He did no promotion and ran and hid for a year out of fear and self doubt. These are not traits of a guy that doesn't care what people think.

Because he wasn't happy with the product?

It seems that MSL has the whole document and these are just two extracts he posted. I´ve also wondered why Axl never showed this to clear all this and to prove he wasn´t wrong years ago.

Frankly, I don't think Axl really cares that much. He cares about his music, obsessively, and wants us to like it, but as for himself, he couldn't care less about what we think.

Yes but considering that he has been blamed for the old band´s break up, of being a machiavellian liar..etc

Again, I don't think he cares that much about these things. If he did he would spend more time telling his story.

"truth is the truth hurts, dont you agree? Its harder to live with the truth about you than to live with the lies about me."

Not sure how that quote fits as an argument for or against what I have been suggesting.

[ChineseIRS]

He is a haughty guy and feels offended by what Slash has said, yes. But he doesn't care that much what the general public thinks him, at least not enough to force him into actually doing something about it, like arguing his side of the story. I don't see the conflict between these two things.

If that is true, why did he not lay it all on the line for the new album and let it sink or swim on its own merit?

He did no promotion and ran and hid for a year out of fear and self doubt. These are not traits of a guy that doesn't care what people think.

Because he wasn't happy with the product?

It seems that MSL has the whole document and these are just two extracts he posted. I´ve also wondered why Axl never showed this to clear all this and to prove he wasn´t wrong years ago.

Frankly, I don't think Axl really cares that much. He cares about his music, obsessively, and wants us to like it, but as for himself, he couldn't care less about what we think.

Yes but considering that he has been blamed for the old band´s break up, of being a machiavellian liar..etc

Again, I don't think he cares that much about these things. If he did he would spend more time telling his story.

"truth is the truth hurts, dont you agree? Its harder to live with the truth about you than to live with the lies about me."

Not sure how that quote fits as an argument for or against what I have been suggesting.

The discussion was why if Axl was in the right, then why wouldnt he have proved his case sooner. And i was just pojnting out that qoute because that is probably his feelings on the subject. He can deal with the lies about himself, not the truth about Slash, etc...hence why hes held this grudge for 20 years.

Usually when someone has a guilty conscience they get defensive. The fact Axl stayed quiet for so many years shows he wasnt too worried, that time would eventually show what really went down.

Thats not to say Axl was totally innocent of everything. Its not as black and white to be jusr Axls fault or just Slashs fault. Everyone contributed.

[SoulMonster]

He is a haughty guy and feels offended by what Slash has said, yes. But he doesn't care that much what the general public thinks him, at least not enough to force him into actually doing something about it, like arguing his side of the story. I don't see the conflict between these two things.

If that is true, why did he not lay it all on the line for the new album and let it sink or swim on its own merit?

He did no promotion and ran and hid for a year out of fear and self doubt. These are not traits of a guy that doesn't care what people think.

Because he wasn't happy with the product?

It seems that MSL has the whole document and these are just two extracts he posted. I´ve also wondered why Axl never showed this to clear all this and to prove he wasn´t wrong years ago.

Frankly, I don't think Axl really cares that much. He cares about his music, obsessively, and wants us to like it, but as for himself, he couldn't care less about what we think.

Yes but considering that he has been blamed for the old band´s break up, of being a machiavellian liar..etc

Again, I don't think he cares that much about these things. If he did he would spend more time telling his story.

"truth is the truth hurts, dont you agree? Its harder to live with the truth about you than to live with the lies about me."

Not sure how that quote fits as an argument for or against what I have been suggesting.

The discussion was why if Axl was in the right, then why wouldnt he have proved his case sooner. And i was just pojnting out that qoute because that is probably his feelings on the subject. He can deal with the lies about himself, not the truth about Slash, etc...hence why hes held this grudge for 20 years.

Usually when someone has a guilty conscience they get defensive. The fact Axl stayed quiet for so many years shows he wasnt too worried, that time would eventually show what really went down.

Thats not to say Axl was totally innocent of everything. Its not as black and white to be jusr Axls fault or just Slashs fault. Everyone contributed.

Ah, now I understand. Thanks

[Facekicker]

Oh please, when Axl came on here he sure as shit didn't act like someone who didn't care about telling his side of the story. In fact he posted a nice long post about this very topic, when all he had to do was post the above document. And don't try and tell me he hasn't got a copy of the original document.

Well, if he was really bothered about it he would spend some energy explaining his side of the story to the public, too, not just spending a few hours talking with us as part of CD promotion. Fact is that Axl remains silent for years and years. Occasionally he says a little bit in interviews, and to us during the chats, but mostly he seems content to not bother to try to set things right. Perhaps the explanation is simply that it doesn't matter much to him what the public thinks? Perhaps he doesn't care much being portrayed as a villain? I don't know, I just don't think people take into consideration the stunning silence from him in regards to what most people think here is an issue that practically nags him to no end. It just doesn't seem like it does.

You left out the most important one - he knows his story wouldn't stand up to media scrutiny because for the most part it is bullshit. It might just be as simple as Axl fucking over his bandmates and getting away with it.

[Guest cbgnr666]

.All the years of Axl this and Axl made me do that, call the friggin whambulance was a total deception.These guys let all the fans down that supported them through thick and thin believing their fantasy story.I'm glad this is cleared up once and for all.

[SoulMonster]

Oh please, when Axl came on here he sure as shit didn't act like someone who didn't care about telling his side of the story. In fact he posted a nice long post about this very topic, when all he had to do was post the above document. And don't try and tell me he hasn't got a copy of the original document.

Well, if he was really bothered about it he would spend some energy explaining his side of the story to the public, too, not just spending a few hours talking with us as part of CD promotion. Fact is that Axl remains silent for years and years. Occasionally he says a little bit in interviews, and to us during the chats, but mostly he seems content to not bother to try to set things right. Perhaps the explanation is simply that it doesn't matter much to him what the public thinks? Perhaps he doesn't care much being portrayed as a villain? I don't know, I just don't think people take into consideration the stunning silence from him in regards to what most people think here is an issue that practically nags him to no end. It just doesn't seem like it does.

You left out the most important one - he knows his story wouldn't stand up to media scrutiny because for the most part it is bullshit. It might just be as simple as Axl fucking over his bandmates and getting away with it.

I left out many possible explanations for Axl's silence because I had no intention of listing them all. My point was merely that it doesn't add up that Axl should be SO concerned about what we think of him yet he never cares to make an effort of defending himself against all kinds of criticism. Sure, it could be that he just knows he wouldn't be able to defend himself successfully because he would be revealed as a liar, yet with all the different kinds of criticism he gets I am sure he would be able to get away with some explanations. But he doesn't even make an effort. So my question remains: could it be that he just don't care enough about what the general public think of him as a person to bother trying to argue against the onslaught of criticism he has gotten through the years? I don't have the answer, I don't know what is the right answer, but I do see the contradiction and this is partly why Axl is an enigma. He doesn't seem to work like most people.

[November_rain]

It seems that MSL has the whole document and these are just two extracts he posted. I´ve also wondered why Axl never showed this to clear all this and to prove he wasn´t wrong years ago.

Frankly, I don't think Axl really cares that much. He cares about his music, obsessively, and wants us to like it, but as for himself, he couldn't care less about what we think.

Yes but considering that he has been blamed for the old band´s break up, of being a machiavellian liar..etc

Again, I don't think he cares that much about these things. If he did he would spend more time telling his story.

Sorry, I had to leave abruptly and couldn´t finish my post. I think he does care about what the fans think of him, it´s part of human nature and it must be frustrating for him to read lies or rumours that end up being taken as the truth because of the constant repetition but maybe he feels that he is in one of those situations where he is damned if he defends himself and damned if he doesn´t.

[Facekicker]

Oh please, when Axl came on here he sure as shit didn't act like someone who didn't care about telling his side of the story. In fact he posted a nice long post about this very topic, when all he had to do was post the above document. And don't try and tell me he hasn't got a copy of the original document.

Well, if he was really bothered about it he would spend some energy explaining his side of the story to the public, too, not just spending a few hours talking with us as part of CD promotion. Fact is that Axl remains silent for years and years. Occasionally he says a little bit in interviews, and to us during the chats, but mostly he seems content to not bother to try to set things right. Perhaps the explanation is simply that it doesn't matter much to him what the public thinks? Perhaps he doesn't care much being portrayed as a villain? I don't know, I just don't think people take into consideration the stunning silence from him in regards to what most people think here is an issue that practically nags him to no end. It just doesn't seem like it does.

You left out the most important one - he knows his story wouldn't stand up to media scrutiny because for the most part it is bullshit. It might just be as simple as Axl fucking over his bandmates and getting away with it.

I left out many possible explanations for Axl's silence because I had no intention of listing them all. My point was merely that it doesn't add up that Axl should be SO concerned about what we think of him yet he never cares to make an effort of defending himself against all kinds of criticism. Sure, it could be that he just knows he wouldn't be able to defend himself successfully because he would be revealed as a liar, yet with all the different kinds of criticism he gets I am sure he would be able to get away with some explanations. But he doesn't even make an effort. So my question remains: could it be that he just don't care enough about what the general public think of him as a person to bother trying to argue against the onslaught of criticism he has gotten through the years? I don't have the answer, I don't know what is the right answer, but I do see the contradiction and this is partly why Axl is an enigma. He doesn't seem to work like most people.

Oh come on - you love lists

[SoulMonster]

Oh please, when Axl came on here he sure as shit didn't act like someone who didn't care about telling his side of the story. In fact he posted a nice long post about this very topic, when all he had to do was post the above document. And don't try and tell me he hasn't got a copy of the original document.

Well, if he was really bothered about it he would spend some energy explaining his side of the story to the public, too, not just spending a few hours talking with us as part of CD promotion. Fact is that Axl remains silent for years and years. Occasionally he says a little bit in interviews, and to us during the chats, but mostly he seems content to not bother to try to set things right. Perhaps the explanation is simply that it doesn't matter much to him what the public thinks? Perhaps he doesn't care much being portrayed as a villain? I don't know, I just don't think people take into consideration the stunning silence from him in regards to what most people think here is an issue that practically nags him to no end. It just doesn't seem like it does.

You left out the most important one - he knows his story wouldn't stand up to media scrutiny because for the most part it is bullshit. It might just be as simple as Axl fucking over his bandmates and getting away with it.

I left out many possible explanations for Axl's silence because I had no intention of listing them all. My point was merely that it doesn't add up that Axl should be SO concerned about what we think of him yet he never cares to make an effort of defending himself against all kinds of criticism. Sure, it could be that he just knows he wouldn't be able to defend himself successfully because he would be revealed as a liar, yet with all the different kinds of criticism he gets I am sure he would be able to get away with some explanations. But he doesn't even make an effort. So my question remains: could it be that he just don't care enough about what the general public think of him as a person to bother trying to argue against the onslaught of criticism he has gotten through the years? I don't have the answer, I don't know what is the right answer, but I do see the contradiction and this is partly why Axl is an enigma. He doesn't seem to work like most people.

Oh come on - you love lists

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't tempted . Seriously, I am lying.

It seems that MSL has the whole document and these are just two extracts he posted. I´ve also wondered why Axl never showed this to clear all this and to prove he wasn´t wrong years ago.

Frankly, I don't think Axl really cares that much. He cares about his music, obsessively, and wants us to like it, but as for himself, he couldn't care less about what we think.

Yes but considering that he has been blamed for the old band´s break up, of being a machiavellian liar..etc

Again, I don't think he cares that much about these things. If he did he would spend more time telling his story.

Sorry, I had to leave abruptly and couldn´t finish my post. I think he does care about what the fans think of him, it´s part of human nature and it must be frustrating for him to read lies or rumours that end up being taken as the truth because of the constant repetition but maybe he feels that he is in one of those situations where he is damned if he defends himself and damned if he doesn´t.

I think this is quite plausible. Still, if it was something as easy as pointing to documents that proves Slash and Duff has been lying, I don't think he would be damned.

[bikka]

Maybe I didn't make myself clear last time...

A "Memorandum of Agreement" is NOT a contract. I only lurk here normally but it kinda jumped at me when I saw this scan because I have just cancelled a MOA ...by sending a single email. In general, they are not legally binding. Has anyone had any other experience with partnership/consortium agreements and MOAs?

I'm not a lawyer so I can't be 100% sure but from my experience it is just a letter of intent signed by more than 1 party.

The thing is, if you want to get a deal from a publishing company / record company / funding agency for something that you're doing in collaboration (record/book/project, etc.) with other partners then when you apply for the deal (often even before the negotiations) you have to show that you're serious about collaborating with those people and that the whole thing has chances of fruition... Then again you don't want to sign an actual contract because what would be its status if you don't get the deal...? That's where various MOAs, letters of intent, Memorandums of Understanding come in. You sign this to show that you know precisely how you would collaborate if you get the deal. And these things vary from being really general ("yeah, we will work together...") to really specific, basically like a real contract - they specify how the money will be split, who will be distributing it, can new partners enter, what happens when somebody leaves the partnership, etc. But they are NOT (in majority of cases) legally binding. That is, a partner can leave even before the actual deal is decided or after it is decided or a partner can change their mind and say that this kind of partnership is not ok and unless it is renegotiated they quit. Etc, etc... Only after the deal is ready for which the partnership is actully intended, you sign the real contract (partnership / consortium agreement) - very often in the presence of the 3rd party (publishing company, funding agency, etc.).

The bottom point of this all is that the dates on this document are totally irrelevant. The real contract was signed either before (if this is a MOA for some kind of amendment to a deal, which by what I've read here seems most plausible) or later (if this is the first MOA for the new partnership, which is rather improbable). I guess it was for amendments in which case they probably just copied whatever clauses were in the previous/ongoing partnership agreement into a MOA - this way it is something everybody has already agreed on... Theoretically they could have tried to renegotiate the partnership at this point but if there was already a valid contract in effect and at least 1 party did not agree to the changes, they would be left where they were, with no chances for amendments to the other deal.

Of course, it would be easier to judge what it really is if the whole thing was posted...

[dalsh327]

Maybe I didn't make myself clear last time...

A "Memorandum of Agreement" is NOT a contract. I only lurk here normally but it kinda jumped at me when I saw this scan because I have just cancelled a MOA ...by sending a single email. In general, they are not legally binding. Has anyone had any other experience with partnership/consortium agreements and MOAs?

I'm not a lawyer so I can't be 100% sure but from my experience it is just a letter of intent signed by more than 1 party.

The thing is, if you want to get a deal from a publishing company / record company / funding agency for something that you're doing in collaboration (record/book/project, etc.) with other partners then when you apply for the deal (often even before the negotiations) you have to show that you're serious about collaborating with those people and that the whole thing has chances of fruition... Then again you don't want to sign an actual contract because what would be its status if you don't get the deal...? That's where various MOAs, letters of intent, Memorandums of Understanding come in. You sign this to show that you know precisely how you would collaborate if you get the deal. And these things vary from being really general ("yeah, we will work together...") to really specific, basically like a real contract - they specify how the money will be split, who will be distributing it, can new partners enter, what happens when somebody leaves the partnership, etc. But they are NOT (in majority of cases) legally binding. That is, a partner can leave even before the actual deal is decided or after it is decided or a partner can change their mind and say that this kind of partnership is not ok and unless it is renegotiated they quit. Etc, etc... Only after the deal is ready for which the partnership is actully intended, you sign the real contract (partnership / consortium agreement) - very often in the presence of the 3rd party (publishing company, funding agency, etc.).

The bottom point of this all is that the dates on this document are totally irrelevant. The real contract was signed either before (if this is a MOA for some kind of amendment to a deal, which by what I've read here seems most plausible) or later (if this is the first MOA for the new partnership, which is rather improbable). I guess it was for amendments in which case they probably just copied whatever clauses were in the previous/ongoing partnership agreement into a MOA - this way it is something everybody has already agreed on... Theoretically they could have tried to renegotiate the partnership at this point but if there was already a valid contract in effect and at least 1 party did not agree to the changes, they would be left where they were, with no chances for amendments to the other deal.

Of course, it would be easier to judge what it really is if the whole thing was posted...

No one wants to spring for the 20 bucks to get copies from the county.

[axlrod]

He doesn't seem to work like most people.

Axl is looked at as a person disconnected from society, as well as a person who works remotely, at a distance, away from the rest of the world.

His intellect predominates over 'wil' much more than within the average person.

He hits a target no one else can hit; no one else can see.

He possesses unique qualities and talents that make unusual to the society in which he operates.

Some say he's the biggest douchebag in Rock history. lol

[Dariablue]

Bikka makes good points. Too many variables to know the full story yet. I'm sure MSL will post the whole document sometime. Once the discussion from this dies down, he will post another snippet.

[Facekicker]

So you are saying that this document isn't legally binding and therefore undermines whatever bullshit argument MSL and others have been trying to put forward? Lol

[rockerman]

Gotta laugh at the pissing match going on here and all the fuckers Going AHA!! see there proof that Slash and Duff are lying! No one mentions the tiny little detail about Axls suckerpunching the rest of GNR by quiting and then taking the name with him and then offering the original members their old jobs back as employees of GNR and not members of GNR. Sneaky and well played. No more need to withhold services and participation with your equals..no more having to browbeat them into playing your Stephanie Seymour ballads and no more having to dive in and find the monkey with the rest of the band.

[Dariablue]

That little move is completely disregarded apparently. For me, that had always been a bigger issue. If he wanted the name, fine. But him leaving jus to she could create a new GNR and rehire his bandmates is wrong IMO.

[Padme]

So you are saying that this document isn't legally binding and therefore undermines whatever bullshit argument MSL and others have been trying to put forward? Lol

Well that´s the thing. We don´t know. All we saw was a pharagraph of something. It could be a contract, it could a MOA ot it could be just toilette paper. We need to see the whole document to have a better idea