Question To Those Who Dislikes/Hates Chinese Democracy(Album)

[ChristmasFnatic]

Your dislike for that album is more on the fact that it doesnt sound like GNR of the past(too overproduced, too many ballads, depressing, etc.)? Or is it cuz of the members, in which you dont like, or think are mostly talentless, etc.?

Just wondering cuz I see many comments disliking it(personally, Im not a fan of it that much myself, but I dont dislike it either... just so so).

[Guest Len B'stard]

I don't dislike it but i do think it is an attempt by a person to execute something very grand without having the vision or talent to pull it off. Thats not an insult to Axl because i think he's very talented in certain areas but a little less in that regard. It seems like it's trying very hard to be epic and falling far short.

Also, thematically it's like...a victims album and being intrinisically tied like it is to the band that produced it, it's difficult to divorce it from commonly percieved notions regarding it's author and his behaviour and/or position in the whole debacle and his attempt at re-defining his position in it.

Axl has proved that he can write a decent ballad. Axl has proved that he can rock the fuck out. What he hasn't proved is that he is capable of that Pete Townshend thing of creating an album to convey some sort of grand cohesive point.

I think Axl wants to be something that he isn't...or isn't yet, at the expense of his forte, so to speak. I think perhaps in a convoluted way Slash thought the same thing, if not specifically of Axl then of the band or the direction the band was taking. It's a shame, it's like you got your thing, y'know? It's more than enough to be a fuckin' legend on the back of.

Perhaps Axl deserves respect for it, i mean it's called growing as an artist, isn't it? And if you don't quite hit the bullseye but at least you tried, suffice to say it's growth of some sort.

But overall, the work suffers for it, to a degree. I think he deserves credit for trying to diversify outside of his comfort zone though. What reflects slightly poorly on him that, as different as Chi Dem is, it's not a million billion miles away from his forte, i mean it's not like a PiL album or something...and if Axl is limited to the point where he can't even shine trying to expand a little out of his comfort zone, it sort of paints him as a bit of a one trick pony, at least in the eyes of some.

To my mind though, it's a tidy little album, i like most of the songs...it just comes across as a bunch of really good half ideas that weren't really realised in terms of expanding on the substance of them and instead, the periphery was endlessly tinkered with and accentuated, resulting in very grand-sounding mediocre product.

[sweetness]

It's not that I dislike it, I just don't think it's close to being the greatest album of the last 20 years as some around here like to toss around. There's some great songs, I really like CD, Catcher, Riad, Better, and TWAT. Then there's songs like This I Love, Prostitute, Shacklers, and Scraped which I can't stand at all. The production is an issue but I don't think it's a total album killer, and I wouldn't go as far to say that it doesn't sound like a GNR album. I was actually surprised at how much it did sound like a continuation from UYI

[maynard]

i think axl tried to do something complex but all he got was a mess. this album has no soul. many bootlegs from 02 to 06 are a better representation of what those songs should be.

[Coma16]

This is my favourite album of all time (Doggystyle a close 2nd)

[Chinaski]

Len I would have assumed you would have hated it. Interesting post. I remember HRS made a good post at some point saying something about how what Axl is interested in doing isn't what he's necessarily best at.

[SoNobodyToldYaBaby]

most people that have said they hated it barely gave the album a chance.. i burned a copy for my mate and he even admitted he listened up to better then just left it. its one of those albums that requires dozens of listens to fully understand what its all about.. ill admit myself when i first got it i hated tracks like if the world, catcher, this i love, prostitute and street of dreams but after a while they really grew on me and i love almost every track on the album.

[Guest Len B'stard]

Len I would have assumed you would have hated it. Interesting post. I remember HRS made a good post at some point saying something about how what Axl is interested in doing isn't what he's necessarily best at.

I liked it at the time. Funnily enough i actually like the more epiccy balladey numbers. I like Better, Twat, Chinese Democracy, Catcher in the Rye, Madagascar, Street of Dreams, IRS. The rest are kinda naff. A lot of it is about the fact that i been a Guns fan since before i was a teenager, was just chuffed to hear the boy after so long to be honest. It is a good album...but not a lot more. Just a good solid 3 out of 5 stars album. Maybe 2 and a half. I mean, out of the songs i like they just...don't seem to be about anything really that interesting. Better does, TWAT does, IRS does, Chi Dem don't, CITR don't, Madagascar just seems like more of what TWAT and Better and Street of Dreams are about.

Basically, when you go outside of the songs that seem to be moaning about how hard done by he is by everyone in his life, you're left with a man who leaves you with the impression that he's a man that isn't really about much or doesn't have much going on or is quite secluded in his mentality. I mean CITR, it's hardly like...prime subject matter, is it? Seems like a bit of a waffle based on a famous cause celebre, its not even inspired in terms of like, being a subject matter with much there to explore.

most people that have said they hated it barely gave the album a chance..

How do you know? Edited April 18, 2013 by sugaraylen

[Bumblefeet]

If you are one of those music critics who listens to every first 30 seconds of every track and then forms an opinion, you're bound to hate this album; and that was what you had with a lot of reviewers when it first came out. When I heard it, I'd say I immediately took to half of the songs, the other half I didn't get or found that amazing. So I added those 6 or 7 songs I did like to my ipod and would play the hell out of them. Then, I'd start thinking, I might put one of those other songs on there as well and little by little I find myself listening to the complete album and digging those songs. Aside from if the world, I'm still not sold on that one.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Bumblefeet

[Bruno P.]

If you are one of those music critics who listens to every first 30 seconds of every track and then forms an opinion, you're bound to hate this album; and that was what you had with a lot of reviewers when it first came out. When I heard it, I'd say I immediately took to half of the songs, the other half I didn't get or found that amazing. So I added those 6 or 7 songs I did like to my ipod and would play the hell out of them. Then, I'd start thinking, I might put one of those other songs on there as well and little by little I find myself listening to the complete album and digging those songs. Aside from if the world, I'm still not sold on that one.

If The World is much better live. The album version is ok.

[magisme]

As a GNR album it's sub-par. As an Axl Rose solo album it's respectable. Overall it's OK. It's about the quality of music for me, and the quality just isn't there in a lot of places.

Edited April 18, 2013 by magisme

[hellobeatle]

I think the general ideas are there but it's just not executed. I find the songs just don't go anywhere. You'll have something like the build up of the intro to Chinese Democracy, which makes you think, "oh, this is going to be a huge song", then that real lame riff kicks in and it's like "meh"...

Same with stuff like the chorus of Riad - real catchy but the rest of the song is horrible. The intro to Scraped is cool, but then it turns into a Korn-like song. TWAT has a cool feel to it but I hate the way it's organized and it would have benefited with more structure, plus a stronger chorus. Catcher In The Rye and Prostitute have the hallmarks of an epic UYI song but the execution just isn't there.

I just feel like there are some cool bits but they end up getting wasted because there's so many mediocre parts that drown them out. That's my opinion and obviously there's small subsection of fans (that make up a large part of this board) that feel otherwise.

Not to beat the same drum, but the album would have really benefited from another 2 or 3 strong songwriters/leaders to help steer the songs.

[oneAXLinamillion]

Loved the leaks.

Loved the album.

Didn't get the recognition (talking about selling numbers and proper promotion out of the tours) it deserved

[dalsh327]

It's a good album with or without the GNR name attached to it.

I think you'll always get a debate about whether or not it should have been a GNR album or Axl should've put it out under his own name.

[axlrosefan1]

It's a good album but the problem is, Guns N' Roses is known for being great. UYIs, Lies, AFD were all great. The bar was set very high. CD feels like it's trying to be in that upper echelon. Some of the songs are really trying hard to be grandiose, elton john-esque, and they really aren't. It's almost forced. Now add in the 14 years of hype, constant lineup changes, erratic management and behavior overall, and you've got one huge clusterfuck.

[Guest bellastar2355]

CD has one of my favorite GNR songs: TWAT

and the song I hate the most: This I love

Overall I thought CD was okay. I definitely don't dislike it

[rendestroi95]

Loved the leaks.

Loved the album.

Didn't get the recognition (talking about selling numbers and proper promotion out of the tours) it deserved

This

[SoulMonster]

CD has one of my favorite GNR songs: TWAT

and the song I hate the most: This I love

Overall I thought CD was okay. I definitely don't dislike it

Ooh, I agree completely. In addition I would have to say that If The World is right down there with This I Love. But all in all an okay, albeit very uneven, record.

[Iron MikeyJ]

I don't dislike it but i do think it is an attempt by a person to execute something very grand without having the vision or talent to pull it off. Thats not an insult to Axl because i think he's very talented in certain areas but a little less in that regard. It seems like it's trying very hard to be epic and falling far short.

Also, thematically it's like...a victims album and being intrinisically tied like it is to the band that produced it, it's difficult to divorce it from commonly percieved notions regarding it's author and his behaviour and/or position in the whole debacle and his attempt at re-defining his position in it.

Axl has proved that he can write a decent ballad. Axl has proved that he can rock the fuck out. What he hasn't proved is that he is capable of that Pete Townshend thing of creating an album to convey some sort of grand cohesive point.

I think Axl wants to be something that he isn't...or isn't yet, at the expense of his forte, so to speak. I think perhaps in a convoluted way Slash thought the same thing, if not specifically of Axl then of the band or the direction the band was taking. It's a shame, it's like you got your thing, y'know? It's more than enough to be a fuckin' legend on the back of.

Perhaps Axl deserves respect for it, i mean it's called growing as an artist, isn't it? And if you don't quite hit the bullseye but at least you tried, suffice to say it's growth of some sort.

But overall, the work suffers for it, to a degree. I think he deserves credit for trying to diversify outside of his comfort zone though. What reflects slightly poorly on him that, as different as Chi Dem is, it's not a million billion miles away from his forte, i mean it's not like a PiL album or something...and if Axl is limited to the point where he can't even shine trying to expand a little out of his comfort zone, it sort of paints him as a bit of a one trick pony, at least in the eyes of some.

To my mind though, it's a tidy little album, i like most of the songs...it just comes across as a bunch of really good half ideas that weren't really realised in terms of expanding on the substance of them and instead, the periphery was endlessly tinkered with and accentuated, resulting in very grand-sounding mediocre product.

I agree with a lot of what you said here. I do think axl has tried a little to hard to be something he's not, a true musical genius. He is extremely talented, we all agree on that. But cd seems to be axls attempt to pull a roger waters, and write the wall. Which honestly the wall, physical graffiti, and use your illusions remixed by trent reznor is what cd sounds like to me. The biggest difference is the wall and physical graffiti were created by bands, not individuals. In the end axl wanted to make the wall, but instead he made the pros and cons of hitch hiking instead. I really like the wall, without gilmours influence on that album, it would have been a let down. Waters wrote 90% of that album, but it was gilmours 10% that made it a lendgendary album. If slash would have contributed the final touches to the album, not only would it been more accepted, but it would have lived up to the hype. I'm not trying to take anything away from bucket or robin by saying that, its just not the same type of magic. Look at roger waters pros and cons of hitch hiking, it is an amazing album. Imo its the last true pink floyd album, and who plays guitar on it? Eric clapton. Many would say clapton is better than gilmour, but gilmour is a better fit for waters. Same thing could be said for buckethead and slash. Clapton plays beautifully on that album, and I personally thinks its an amazing record, but it does fall short when compared to the wall. Which is exactly what happened with cd, its almost as good as the illusions, and if slash had played on it, it might have been just as good or maybe even better. Its that final 10% that makes all the difference sometimes.

Despite saying that, i appreciate that axl wants to remain a true artist. I respect the stand that he made, and wanted to push the envelope creativly. Honestly if slash would of had his way in gnr, we would have had more albums. But the quality of those albums would have slowly gotten worse. Look at acdc, slash wanted to be like them. Imo acdc has only done three albums worth a damn since bon scott died, back in black, for those about to rock, and razors edge. And honestly they have gotten steadily worse since 1980. I don't care how much black ice sold, its not a good acdc album, let alone good in general. While cd is a good album, maybe not a great gnr album, but its still has quality. Honestly I think its head and shoulders better than metallicas, van halens, and acdcs last albums. Rhiad and scraped are the only "bad" songs on cd imo. If the world, irs, and sod are just ok, but I think the rest of the album is actually really good. And a few of the songs stand up with anything classic gnr did imo. Public acceptance doesn't mean jack shit to me, quality music does. If axl can release one or two more quality albums, but nobody other than me cares, that's fine with me.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Mike420

[T.wa.T]

The more I listened to it the more I like it. A few songs I liked right away like, CD, Better, twat, Sorry. Some others like Riad, Scraped and If the World took me some extra listens to like. At this point I like the whole album and I think some of it is as good as the Illusion albums.

I'm not sure if its the over production that hurts it, imo what hurts it is all the little things going on in the background. In some cases it becomes almost staticky or fuzzy. Probably why some of the demos are prefered because they are a little less refined.

[Rauschen]

I'd agree with others statements that the more I listened, the more I came to really enjoy the album. With that said, I still feel strongly and negatively about the majority of guitar work featured on Chinese. I believe the lack of unity in the guitar playing, over layering, tinkering, pieces seemly copy and paste into the songs, all really killed the album for me and other classic rock fans. I admit that all current and ex guitar players in nuguns have been incredibly talented. But guns in my mind has always been a harder version of Aerosmith, mixed with stones and black sabbath. The music should have stayed that way for at least the rockers on the album. I'm ok with some experimentation on the ballads and Axl's other babies.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Rauschen

[jmapelian]

Your dislike for that album is more on the fact that it doesnt sound like GNR of the past(too overproduced, too many ballads, depressing, etc.)? Or is it cuz of the members, in which you dont like, or think are mostly talentless, etc.?

Just wondering cuz I see many comments disliking it(personally, Im not a fan of it that much myself, but I dont dislike it either... just so so).

I don't hate it - I just don't think the songs are that compelling, it's way overproduced, and some of the songs just go on and on in an attempt to be epic and turn out to be long and boring. Not to mention the lyrics or axl's voice are weak in spots and it took till 2008 to release when by some accounts, it could have come out in 2000/2001 sounding very much the same. As for the band members not named axl, I think some of their talent may have been lost in the mixing/production but also I think there may be some redundancy w 3 guitarists, 2 keyboardist plus axl and his piano; and having had at least 2 drummers and a bassist you can't really hear.

That and it seems like the songs themselves were cut and pasted rather than written as a coherent unit; and there aren't and real rockers on the album; I mean CD, IRS, and scraped may best fit that category and there more mid-tempo.

[wasted]

CD is the greatest album of all time.

https://soundcloud.com/mixessss2010/eminem-feat-rihanna-vs-guns-n-roses-love-the-way-you-lie_paradise-city-djs-from-mars

[TombRaider]

It's grown on me, but I still don't know if I sorta like it because

a) I'm a fan and if you're a fan chances are you will enjoy/end up enjoying what the band you like releases

b) it's actually good.

I tend to think it's grown on me because I'm a fan and after having spent money on it, I'd be disappointed if I didn't like the album at all.

I'm over the fact that none of the guys from the original lineup are in the band. It really doesn't bother me anymore, but my biggest complain about CD is that, for all the time it took to be released and all the hype it created, it's just an ok album, at least in my book.

[Mfegz]

Simple....no catchy riffs or hooks !

No sing-a-long choruses

No real rockers