Why No Release? Simple.

[Chris 55]

CD was a complete and utter flop. The ripples from its massive belly flop continue to this day. It was blown out for $1.99 and when that didn't work giant unsold pallets of the CDs were shipped to DOLLAR TREE for chrissake. It's a joke. It's a cautionary tale about hubris and expectations and losing audience interest. It didn't sell "5 millions copies" worldwide. The record company has never released actual verifiable numbers of how many units were actually SOLD worldwide. That is a FACT. Don't believe me? Show me the numbers. Show me the info from Interscope. Give me a solid verifiable number. Didn't think so.

So why no release? Cause Axl doesn't have anything else to release. There is no new music.

Axl Rose is still a personality, despite everything; people are still captivated by him. Look at the fact that a little blurb about him renting an apartment was the trending topic for days on the net. IF there was any new music, or even a live album, outtakes, anything...ANYTHING....the label would release that shit in a second.

There is no new music because Axl doesn't want us to have any new music.

Just because a lie is repeated many times doesn't make it true. According to IFPI CD was 14th best selling album of 2008 despite being released just 5 weeks before the year ended. Numbers say it was a massive commercial success regardless how much you like it or not.

1. Coldplay: Viva La Vida or Death and All His Friends

2. AC/DC: Black Ice

3. Various Artists: Mamma Mia! The Movie Soundtrack

4. Duffy: Rockferry

5. Metallica: Death Magnetic

6. Leona Lewis: Spirit

7. Amy Winehouse: Back to Black

8. Various Aritsts: High School Musical 3: Senior Year

9. Lil Wayne: Tha Carter III

10. Rihanna: Good Girl Gone Bad

11. Madonna: Hard Candy

12. Beyonce: I Am...Sasha Fierce

13. P!ink: Funhouse

14. Guns N' Roses: Chinese Democracy

15: Britney Spears: Circus

16. Jack Johnson: Sleep Through The Static

17. Il Divo: The Promise

18. Taylor Swift: Fearless

19. Jonas Brothers: A Little Bit Longer

20. Various Artists: Camp Rock OST

did any retailer spend $14 million for the right to sell any of those albums, suffer a massive loss, lower the price to $1.99 and then dump it into discount stores? When that happens, then you can compare.

[Apollo]

Chokes, numbers can be made to look interesting depending on what context they are used.

AC/DC's album was released in October and it sold almost three times as many world wide copies as CD did.

CD was the 14th highest selling album of 2008? Guess what the 15th one did, and just use that as a comparison to CD.

15th place sold 5 million copies, almost 50% more than CD.

15th place debuted at number one and produced three top 20 singles, including a number one song and a song that reached number 3.

So yes. The album that was the most anticipated album of all time, that was also the most expensive rock album ever made (14 million dollars)....had a pretty strong opening month. Didn't debut at number one, but had a strong opening month - no doubt. But what happened after that? It sank and fell off the charts, while albums like ACDC and most of the other guys in the top 20 saw their albums continue to sell well. Beoynce's album was considered a bit of a flop for her and it ended up selling 8 million (12th on 2008 list). 13th place Pink sold five million copies. 15th place Britney sold 5 million copies.

Just the fact that the 13th and 15th place artist's albums both sold almost 50% more than CD did over the next couple of years.......And AC/DC tripled CDs numbers.

You have to use all the facts when deciding if an album was successful or not.

14 million dollars for a GnR album that people had been talking about for over a decade - 3.5 million albums sold does not equal a "Massive Commercial Success".....no matter how many times you want to lie about it.

The album did OK. Not as well as anybody involved with it hoped - clearly Axl and the Label assumed it would do way better.

[wasted]

Axl said in 2002 the stuff they were playing was the less good stuff. SOD, Riad, CD, Maddy.... The songs that made the album were probably determined by what leaked. TWAT, Better, IRS, etc. The only songs that wasn't played in 2002 that was actually talked about being on the album at the time was CITR and Prostitute.... We know axl considered those to be two of the "Big Guns".... It's entirely possible that the songs that made the album weren't the ones axl intended to be on the album in 2002.

We know songs are out there. We've all heard the titles like "The General", "Jackie Chan", "Soul Monster", "Atlas Shrugged", "Beta's Barn", "Seven", "Thyme", "Zodiac", "Down By The Ocean", "Daddy Can The Devil Do Mommy and Me", "Quick Songs", etc... We know he has Going Down, Silkworms, Atlas, and OMG all ready to go....

In 2002 he said CD would be out in 2003 with over 20 songs. Then 1 or 2 years later CD II, then 1 or 2 years later CD III. As late as 2006 he was saying CD III would be out by 2012. In the 2008 chats he said "Same time next year" for a new album, which would've mean 2009. If everything were to go his way, we would have tons of material out by now. We would have so many new songs we wouldn't even know what to do with them.

I don't think he's lost confidence. He's said, while most will disagree with him, this is his favorite line up he's had.... Even if they're not the best musically, they're the most stable and they seem the most like a band.

There's rumors Axl brought CD II to the record company in 2010 ready to release it. Chances are that happened and the record company and him couldn't come to an agreement. Chances are, after CD Axl wanted the record company to work out a big promotion deal and they couldn't come to an agreement.

I mean seriously.... Given Axl's prior history would you feel comfortable giving him money and expect to earn it back and then some in a timely manor?

I dont think that will happen for anyone in the current climate. Thats why the trend is for labels to wait longer and look for better project and the right moment. It may just give Axl more time to work out how to make the next record.

Wed probably take 3 discs with CD slapped on them and endless touring. Maybe GNR will always aim to put out albums with a new twist instead of turning the handle like DC.

[dalsh327]

ChiDem sold about half a million copies at retail at Best Buy before it went to the bargain bins, 317K in the first 2 weeks. That's still half a million people who went to Best Buy and spent 10 bucks for a copy. What makes it a flop is the 1 million CDs they bought and still had to sell, in an era people buy music online or stream it.

To me a flop is when you see Virgin paying Mariah off to go away because they considered her damaged goods. Or the KISS solo albums, or something that results in a record label shutting its doors.

I'm not saying it didn't flop, but it was another case of overprinting instead of going off of presales and printing up what was needed, but they were probably trying to get it RIAA Platinum status or some bullshit. Those days are over for most artists.

"Let Timbaland be your producer" did blow up in Jimmy Iovine's face. I'm sure there's ChiDem mixes that Timba produced, but Axl would have to confirm that it happened.

Edited January 5, 2014 by dalsh327

[dalsh327]

Oh, and let's not forget the 2500 copies of the strip club CD included with "Exotic Dancer Magazine".

[wasted]

it's bcos the label sucks and doesn't believe in GNR.

[Mr. Dude]

CD was a complete and utter flop. The ripples from its massive belly flop continue to this day. It was blown out for $1.99 and when that didn't work giant unsold pallets of the CDs were shipped to DOLLAR TREE for chrissake. It's a joke. It's a cautionary tale about hubris and expectations and losing audience interest. It didn't sell "5 millions copies" worldwide. The record company has never released actual verifiable numbers of how many units were actually SOLD worldwide. That is a FACT. Don't believe me? Show me the numbers. Show me the info from Interscope. Give me a solid verifiable number. Didn't think so.

So why no release? Cause Axl doesn't have anything else to release. There is no new music.

Axl Rose is still a personality, despite everything; people are still captivated by him. Look at the fact that a little blurb about him renting an apartment was the trending topic for days on the net. IF there was any new music, or even a live album, outtakes, anything...ANYTHING....the label would release that shit in a second.

There is no new music because Axl doesn't want us to have any new music.

Just because a lie is repeated many times doesn't make it true. According to IFPI CD was 14th best selling album of 2008 despite being released just 5 weeks before the year ended. Numbers say it was a massive commercial success regardless how much you like it or not.

1. Coldplay: Viva La Vida or Death and All His Friends

2. AC/DC: Black Ice

3. Various Artists: Mamma Mia! The Movie Soundtrack

4. Duffy: Rockferry

5. Metallica: Death Magnetic

6. Leona Lewis: Spirit

7. Amy Winehouse: Back to Black

8. Various Aritsts: High School Musical 3: Senior Year

9. Lil Wayne: Tha Carter III

10. Rihanna: Good Girl Gone Bad

11. Madonna: Hard Candy

12. Beyonce: I Am...Sasha Fierce

13. P!ink: Funhouse

14. Guns N' Roses: Chinese Democracy

15: Britney Spears: Circus

16. Jack Johnson: Sleep Through The Static

17. Il Divo: The Promise

18. Taylor Swift: Fearless

19. Jonas Brothers: A Little Bit Longer

20. Various Artists: Camp Rock OST

Did it sell as well as it would have, or another album did in 2005, or 2002, or 1999...of course it didn't, music doesn't sell that much. Don't take my word for it, look at the soundscan data showing physical and digital album sales the past 15 years.

2012: 315.96 million

2011: 330.57 million

2010: 326.15 million

2009: 373.9 million

2008: 428.4 million

2007: 500.5 million

2006: 542.4 million

2005: 618.9 million

2004: 667 million

2003: 687 million

2002: 681 million

2001: 763 million

2000: 785 million

1999: 754.8 million

1998: 711 million

1997: 651.8 million

1996: 616.6 million

Oh no, not the facts!?! Do you know where the fuck you are?

[wasted]

the jungle where the evidence means nothing if they mister charlie cop on your block. mix in bacardi dark.

[Mr. Dude]

ChiDem sold about half a million copies at retail at Best Buy before it went to the bargain bins, 317K in the first 2 weeks. That's still half a million people who went to Best Buy and spent 10 bucks for a copy. What makes it a flop is the 1 million CDs they bought and still had to sell, in an era people buy music online or stream it.

To me a flop is when you see Virgin paying Mariah off to go away because they considered her damaged goods. Or the KISS solo albums, or something that results in a record label shutting its doors.

I'm not saying it didn't flop, but it was another case of overprinting instead of going off of presales and printing up what was needed, but they were probably trying to get it RIAA Platinum status or some bullshit. Those days are over for most artists.

"Let Timbaland be your producer" did blow up in Jimmy Iovine's face. I'm sure there's ChiDem mixes that Timba produced, but Axl would have to confirm that it happened.

If you combine the Kiss solo albums they add up to what a Kiss album normally sold in those days. Ace Frehley's is alright.

[Lethalis]

If they really had this vault of great new songs they would be dying to get them out.

That's the only thing that worries me

[wasted]

If they really had this vault of great new songs they would be dying to get them out.

That's the only thing that worries me

I feel like I have laser dot on my head at all times.

[Rovim]

If they really had this vault of great new songs they would be dying to get them out.

That's the only thing that worries me

I feel like I have laser dot on my head at all times.

Comes with the territory.

[RichardNixon]

I'm so sick of reading all the bullshit, conspiracy theories and weak, ill-founded speculation about why Chinese Democracy 2 hasn't been released in 5 years.

1) Axl has lost his confidence ;

2) The record company is furious at Axl's lack of promotion for Chinese Democracy so is being awkward ;

3) Axl is holding out for more money.

Blah blah blah fucking blah........

Listen. Chinese Democracy was a commercial flop. It was an album full of utterly mediocre songs - like It's The World, Scraped, Rhiad......

So if those songs were the first pick from the archive, what are the left-over dregs going to be like?

Bob Ezrin said it years ago - the quality songs just aren't there. End of story.

That, as they say, is that. Deal with it.

It's YOUR OPINION that the songs are "mediocre," YOU DEAL WITH IT! Rolling Stone and the All Music Guide gave it 4/5 stars. Plenty of fans do like the album. If you don't like it, fine, but stop trying for force feed the idea that the album sucks on everyone else. It's like people like you can't tolerate different opinions and the idea that some people actually like Chinese Democracy shatters your world view and you take it as a personal insult. It's just so immature. And who gives a fuck what Bob Ezrin said? Is he God? Does he have the final say on what's quality music, something that is entirely subjective? Isn't he responsible for Music from the Elder?

Edited January 5, 2014 by RichardNixon

[Rovim]

I'm so sick of reading all the bullshit, conspiracy theories and weak, ill-founded speculation about why Chinese Democracy 2 hasn't been released in 5 years.

1) Axl has lost his confidence ;

2) The record company is furious at Axl's lack of promotion for Chinese Democracy so is being awkward ;

3) Axl is holding out for more money.

Blah blah blah fucking blah........

Listen. Chinese Democracy was a commercial flop. It was an album full of utterly mediocre songs - like It's The World, Scraped, Rhiad......

So if those songs were the first pick from the archive, what are the left-over dregs going to be like?

Bob Ezrin said it years ago - the quality songs just aren't there. End of story.

That, as they say, is that. Deal with it.

It's YOUR OPINION that the songs are "mediocre," YOU DEAL WITH IT! Rolling Stone gave and the All Music Guide gave it 4/5 stars. Plenty of fans do like the album. If you don't like it, fine, but stop trying for force feed the idea that the album sucks on everyone else. It's like people like you can't tolerate different opinions and the idea that some people actually like Chinese Democracy shatters your world view and you take it as a personal insult. It's just so immature

It's like some people here are really bitter cause it has the name 'Gn'R' on the album. They don't want it to be a part of the band's history, but it is. (as small as some think it is)

It's like "how can you enjoy this album after Axl ruined real Guns?" so they just repeat the same thing over and over again, hitting fans of it on the head with their own negative feelings about it, in a fan forum that was dedicated to all of this band's music.

People that dislike the album could maybe accept that others really love it, just like those who love it could accept that some will never consider it a good album or a real Guns album.

[wasted]

If they really had this vault of great new songs they would be dying to get them out.

That's the only thing that worries me

I feel like I have laser dot on my head at all times.

Comes with the territory.

they out ta get me.

I'm so sick of reading all the bullshit, conspiracy theories and weak, ill-founded speculation about why Chinese Democracy 2 hasn't been released in 5 years.

1) Axl has lost his confidence ;

2) The record company is furious at Axl's lack of promotion for Chinese Democracy so is being awkward ;

3) Axl is holding out for more money.

Blah blah blah fucking blah........

Listen. Chinese Democracy was a commercial flop. It was an album full of utterly mediocre songs - like It's The World, Scraped, Rhiad......

So if those songs were the first pick from the archive, what are the left-over dregs going to be like?

Bob Ezrin said it years ago - the quality songs just aren't there. End of story.

That, as they say, is that. Deal with it.

It's YOUR OPINION that the songs are "mediocre," YOU DEAL WITH IT! Rolling Stone gave and the All Music Guide gave it 4/5 stars. Plenty of fans do like the album. If you don't like it, fine, but stop trying for force feed the idea that the album sucks on everyone else. It's like people like you can't tolerate different opinions and the idea that some people actually like Chinese Democracy shatters your world view and you take it as a personal insult. It's just so immature

It's like some people here are really bitter cause it has the name 'Gn'R' on the album. They don't want it to be a part of the band's history, but it is. (as small as some think it is)

It's like "how can you enjoy this album after Axl ruined real Guns?" so they just repeat the same thing over and over again, hitting fans of it on the head with their own negative feelings about it, in a fan forum that was dedicated to all of this band's music.

People that dislike the album could maybe accept that others really love it, just like those who love it could accept that some will never consider it a good album or a real Guns album.

theres a perception that record is hating on the old band. well, only a few songs do really. Maybe 1 or 2. bitch somebody say bitch.

[niceguy]

Rolling Stone and the All Music Guide gave it 4/5 stars. Plenty of fans do like the album.

And who gives a fuck what Bob Ezrin said? Is he God? Does he have the final say on what's quality music, something that is entirely subjective? Isn't he responsible for Music from the Elder?

Holy shit dude, please tell me you see the gigantic flaw in your argument.

First, you use Rolling Stone and All Music Guide scores as "evidence" that CD is great. You're saying that CD is proven great because some other people are saying it's great.

Next, you say that it doesn't matter what Ezrin says. Now you're saying that it DOESN'T MATTER what anyone says about CD.

So which one is it? You're doing that classic thing that people with little ability to understand logic do: you're championing a principle when it supports your opinion and then you're shooting down that VERY SAME PRINCIPLE when it goes against your opinion.

So which is it? Does it matter what other people think about CD or does it not? Cuz you're saying both.

Edited January 5, 2014 by niceguy

[brocky888]

I think what Richard Nixon is trying to say is he getting fed up with the CD bashing. Ok maybe it not everyone's favourite and it hard to compete with AFD etc and that's fair enouth buts it's the over the top slating and trolling on a forum of supposed mutual fans that sometimes is a bit hard to take. If you dipped into this forum as an outsider you would think nugnr and CD were the worst thing ever released yet we look at the recent poll and we see many fans like CD as much as AFD. If you dislike an album and a band so much then move on bro's. I love all GNR albums and bands that's why I bother my arse to come on this forum. Sure everyone is entitled to an opinion but you have so much energy in life and when it's all directed in a negative manner then what's the point?

[John Bonham]

If they really had this vault of great new songs they would be dying to get them out.

very few people are interested in hearing 15 year-old, B-list Chinese democracy songs.

[brocky888]

That be a good poll who would be interested in listening to the CD leftovers. I reckon it be more than a few

[John Bonham]

That be a good poll who would be interested in listening to the CD leftovers. I reckon it be more than a few

I reckon there are about 1500 or so people. So, yea, more than a few.

[brocky888]

Works for me - AFD leftovers, UYI leftovers or CD leftovers I first in queue - or new material bring it on

[RichardNixon]

Rolling Stone and the All Music Guide gave it 4/5 stars. Plenty of fans do like the album.

And who gives a fuck what Bob Ezrin said? Is he God? Does he have the final say on what's quality music, something that is entirely subjective? Isn't he responsible for Music from the Elder?

Holy shit dude, please tell me you see the gigantic flaw in your argument.

First, you use Rolling Stone and All Music Guide scores as "evidence" that CD is great. You're saying that CD is proven great because some other people are saying it's great.

Next, you say that it doesn't matter what Ezrin says. Now you're saying that it DOESN'T MATTER what anyone says about CD.

So which one is it? You're doing that classic thing that people with little ability to understand logic do: you're championing a principle when it supports your opinion and then you're shooting down that VERY SAME PRINCIPLE when it goes against your opinion.

So which is it? Does it matter what other people think about CD or does it not? Cuz you're saying both.

I see no flaw with the logic of my previous post. Another poster implied that because Bob Ezrin supposedly said that Chinese Democracy was a poor album that that was somehow proof that the album is bad. As though Bob Ezrin is the supreme arbiter on the merits of what is quality music and therefore because Ezrin didn't like the album, Chinese Democracy is a certifiable bad album, "end of story" and we should all "deal with it." My reply is that a lot of people do like the album, i.e., Rolling Stone and The All Music Guide as well as many fans. I never said that because those publications like the album it is therefore proof that Chinese Democracy is a good album.

Edited January 5, 2014 by RichardNixon

[Millions]

Okay, Richard Nixon.... why don't you drop the pedantic bleating and listen.

The majority of the hardcore GNR fanbase were and are disappointed in Chinese Democracy.

The general public heard the first single, Chinese Democracy (here in the UK at least, where it got decent aireplay at first) and either shrugged with complete indifference, or laughed with disbelief at how... pointless and subpar it was.

The vast majority of people think this album is mediocre. That means something.

Now you and a few others can bang on that you like it as if that means something. Well, my friend, some people get sexually excited by dead bodies. By your logic, dead bodies should therefore be considered highly attractive sexual objects.

Do you see?

[RichardNixon]

Okay, Richard Nixon.... why don't you drop the pedantic bleating and listen.

The majority of the hardcore GNR fanbase were and are disappointed in Chinese Democracy.

The general public heard the first single, Chinese Democracy (here in the UK at least, where it got decent aireplay at first) and either shrugged with complete indifference, or laughed with disbelief at how... pointless and subpar it was.

The vast majority of people think this album is mediocre. That means something.

Now you and a few others can bang on that you like it as if that means something. Well, my friend, some people get sexually excited by dead bodies. By your logic, dead bodies should therefore be considered highly attractive sexual objects.

Do you see?

Almost everything that you wrote is pure speculation and conjecture. You have no way of knowing what "the vast majority of people" think. For all you know 9 out 10 of the 3 million+ people who bought the album like it. I'm not saying that is the case, but there is really no way to know. That's all besides the point anyway. The quality of music is purely subjective. I have never had any problem with people who don't like Chinese Democracy. If you think that it's a shit album, fine, you are entitled to that view. What annoys me is people who claim that it's a *fact* that it's a bad album and try to force feed their own subjective opinions on those that do like the album.

Edited January 5, 2014 by RichardNixon

[Millions]

Richard Nixon.....

Come on. Man up a bit here. Face some reality.

You claim there's no way to know what people think of the album? On the contrary, my friend, there IS a way. There is a very simple way. Talk to them. You are on a GNR forum, so why not ask people, instead of getting yourself bogged down in silly arguments you can't win.

On a more positive note, if you still don't believe me, why not start a new thread with a poll, and we can see what the result is.