Big guns on CD2?

[seagullview]

I remember Oasis putting out some of their best songs as B-sides on singles so it's not always as straightforward.

GN'R (Axl) has a HISTORY for waiting to release some of their "best" songs. Why wasn't November Rain or Don't Cry on AFD? I think I read somewhere someone in the band saying Don't Cry didn't fit on that album? (not sure)

I'm sure Axl sees all his songs as good or as something he personally likes and I think CD was an album where he finally could make the music HE wanted and release. Slash said he thought CD was the album Axl always wanted to make. I'm not sure if putting the potentially biggest hits on that album was his main priority.

[wasted]

I just think GNR albums tend to have variety of different styles.

[SoulMonster]

People seem to be forgetting that other people listened to songs years prior to the release of CD and said that some songs, that didn't end up on CD, was the better of the lot:

"Leave Me Alone," "Seven," and "The General" could also feature on the new album. These three A-listed songs were worked on by Marco Beltrami, especially "Seven," which Marco deems as the best of the three songs (Jeff Leeds, Sp1at website, June 2005).

One of my favorite songs is this song called 'The General', which is so... it's by far the heaviest metal tune I think I've ever heard Axl do, this slow, grinding riff with these high, piercing vocals, screaming vocals. [...] (Baz, Metal Edge, July 2007).

And Axl talking about The General: Well, this comes out on the third record. It relates to [Estranged], it's a trilogy, this goes with this lyrically [Metal Edge, June 2007]

[Estranged Coma]

People seem to be forgetting that other people listened to songs years prior to the release of CD and said that some songs, that didn't end up on CD, was the better of the lot:

"Leave Me Alone," "Seven," and "The General" could also feature on the new album. These three A-listed songs were worked on by Marco Beltrami, especially "Seven," which Marco deems as the best of the three songs (Jeff Leeds, Sp1at website, June 2005).

One of my favorite songs is this song called 'The General', which is so... it's by far the heaviest metal tune I think I've ever heard Axl do, this slow, grinding riff with these high, piercing vocals, screaming vocals. [...] (Baz, Metal Edge, July 2007).

And Axl talking about The General: Well, this comes out on the third record. It relates to [Estranged], it's a trilogy, this goes with this lyrically [Metal Edge, June 2007]

the fact that axl already referenced a third album as early as 07 makes me believe there is ton of material left that we haven't heard. of course im skeptical, but going down kind of pushed me back into the thinking that axl has boat loads of material. im thinking there are probably around 15-20 songs completed at least in the same form as Going Down is complete. honestly i would not be surprised if its more then 20. i think we'd be idiots to assume he has spent his entire adult life since the illusions came out and only has the songs we heard on Chinese in his pocket. now whether or not we hear them and if they are any good is another story.

[SoulMonster]

That's a good point. Even if Axl set aside songs to go on later albums, and considered them as good or better than some songs on CD, and other people agreed with this, it doesn't mean I will like them. Or you. Music is subjective. That being said, I find the idea that he has set aside songs that are worse than This I Love, If The World and Scraped pretty implausible, so I am optimistic....

[Rovim]

I recall Merck stating that while the CD material was, in his words, "challenging", it was the most accessible of the CD material to that date. To think Axl and especially the label would've held back bigger and better tracks for the 2nd CD era record after all that time is ludicrous. He had 1 shot to make his impression with the new band.

Have to hope he's written some better stuff since, but seems a longshot...

You're forgetting 2 things:

- Axl said he always considered Chinese to be a double.

- Axl said same musical approach, only "meaner, darker" for CD ll (like Chinese) and same players (probably, mostly Robin and Bucket)

You're not going to get something vastly different compared to Chinese. Axl said there were 32 songs in 2006. We've got 14 out of those 32.

The quote was from Merck after listening to all the material. And "Meaner, darker" sounds like a spin on less accessible to me.

Axl says a lot of things and I've no doubt he sincerely means it from his viewpoint at the given time. But it was pretty clear after the long, arduous struggle to get CD out the door, that there may or may not ever be a follow up. And from an artistic standpoint and wanting to prove you can succeed without the old band, in this situation wouldn't you put your very best stuff on the 1st record you know will be released? And then figure you can write some more great, new material to round out the 2nd record later as needed.

You had Ezrin telling him he had only 3 quality songs, so hard to imagine him thinking, "Awe screw it, let's save the other big guns for a rainy day that may or may not come and in the meantime throw out Scraped, Rhiad, Shackler's, etc. to get by on this 1st release in 15 years that I got the pressure of the world on my shoulders."

Who knows, he may be dividing the big guns up, but either way there must not be too many (at least at the time of choosing the CD tracks) if those types of filler tracks made CD1.

It's also about which songs work best with others in an album. Axl talked about it. Baz also mentioned it.

Think of it like a UYI type of thing where ALL the epics would have been on I, and all the rockers on ll. Would have been horrid to listen to. There has to be a certain flow.

Axl talked about CD ll being done and expressed interest in putting it out. It will come out imo. The "meaner, darker" comment makes sense artistically, since he has already introduced his new sound with Chinese, so with the next album, the material has the chance of being a little heavier maybe. (nothing wrong with that imo)

The Chinese project is a double album, much like the Illusions, and we've only got half of it. Axl also said that if you didn't like Chinese, you'll probably won't like CD ll, so that means to me it sounds pretty similar.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Rovim

[Nick83]

No doubt Axl had a trilogy planned full of big guns coming etc. But after the Azoff screw job, that all changed. He came out swinging in 2009, ready to tour his ass off and rebuild his reputation (not so late, reliable, super longs shows, and bringing his A game voice), probably to get back on track and or more actually, forge his way back to his original track. Axl coming out touring in 2009 was a big FUCK YOU to those at the label and in the industry who were trying to force him into a reunion etc.

Don't think for a second that this wasn't the situation. CD release got botched. He didn't appear for a year. And then came back swinging.

But he lost motivation. Fink quit, lawsuits, no support, likely organizational cash problems, and I think he lost the fire entirely. Or maybe he didn't lose the fire so much as had a radical change in thinking about his reality and what he actually wanted or needed.

I think the dude was sort of happy and content for awhile. But with Axl, that can only be temporary. I expect him to get the fire back again. But there will have to be a lot of adversity or a big event that fires him up.

[maynard]

"Meaner than CD" - hard not to be, there's nothing "mean" about that record

[Rovim]

"Meaner than CD" - hard not to be, there's nothing "mean" about that record

Axl's vocals on Better's bridge riff are pretty "mean".

[tomfriend]

and IRS

[rudolf1978]

Why dont we create a OFFICIAL TOPIC of the new album,there is a lot of them saying interesting things or not even interesting things about the new album,so we can just check the news..............

I mean to put every offical statment in one topic.

[wkuk04]

The song "General Lee" will blow your minds.

[dalsh327]

No doubt Axl had a trilogy planned full of big guns coming etc. But after the Azoff screw job, that all changed. He came out swinging in 2009, ready to tour his ass off and rebuild his reputation (not so late, reliable, super longs shows, and bringing his A game voice), probably to get back on track and or more actually, forge his way back to his original track. Axl coming out touring in 2009 was a big FUCK YOU to those at the label and in the industry who were trying to force him into a reunion etc.

Don't think for a second that this wasn't the situation. CD release got botched. He didn't appear for a year. And then came back swinging.

But he lost motivation. Fink quit, lawsuits, no support, likely organizational cash problems, and I think he lost the fire entirely. Or maybe he didn't lose the fire so much as had a radical change in thinking about his reality and what he actually wanted or needed.

I think the dude was sort of happy and content for awhile. But with Axl, that can only be temporary. I expect him to get the fire back again. But there will have to be a lot of adversity or a big event that fires him up.

How did Azoff do a screw job? His problem was trying to make Interscope happy and he stopped managing every band except the Eagles, and Axl was pissed that he refused to give Front Line Management money they were due from the tour. It was a ridiculous lawsuit that the only shot his lawyer was able to take had to do with when he ran Ticketmaster/Live Nation and routed Springsteen tickets to a ticket broker for a lot of money. The problem is that the fan worked for the Department of Justice and went "ANTITRUST!" It was enough to make the little guy have a tantrum in court (Azoff, not Axl).

The whole thing with trying to force a reunion is ridiculous, he may have gotten Slash, Izzy, and Duff together, or tried to do what he did with the Eagles and get Glenn Frey into the rehearsal room with the rest of the band, but he just said no and that was it for the time being. Axl's never overreacted?

It's just that I think the lawyers try to fuel a lot of things up and know how to play him. He trusts them but he could also fire them if they're not earning their keep.

When Axl's talking about a "trilogy" he meant songs not albums, but it might just be grandiose ideas that might never come to pass. He also said if he didn't get November Rain perfect, he was going to quit music.

[seagullview]

People seem to be forgetting that other people listened to songs years prior to the release of CD and said that some songs, that didn't end up on CD, was the better of the lot:

"Leave Me Alone," "Seven," and "The General" could also feature on the new album. These three A-listed songs were worked on by Marco Beltrami, especially "Seven," which Marco deems as the best of the three songs (Jeff Leeds, Sp1at website, June 2005).

One of my favorite songs is this song called 'The General', which is so... it's by far the heaviest metal tune I think I've ever heard Axl do, this slow, grinding riff with these high, piercing vocals, screaming vocals. [...] (Baz, Metal Edge, July 2007).

And Axl talking about The General: Well, this comes out on the third record. It relates to [Estranged], it's a trilogy, this goes with this lyrically [Metal Edge, June 2007]

the fact that axl already referenced a third album as early as 07 makes me believe there is ton of material left that we haven't heard. of course im skeptical, but going down kind of pushed me back into the thinking that axl has boat loads of material. im thinking there are probably around 15-20 songs completed at least in the same form as Going Down is complete. honestly i would not be surprised if its more then 20. i think we'd be idiots to assume he has spent his entire adult life since the illusions came out and only has the songs we heard on Chinese in his pocket. now whether or not we hear them and if they are any good is another story.

This is from an interview by MTV News in 1997 of Matt Sorum:

Sorum also said that Guns n' Roses had recorded "4,800 hours of music" (we assume over several years) and have "15 really strong songs" which will be ready "hopefully by next year." He added that the sessions were leaning towards a Soundgarden style of rock although there were tracks where the Nine Inch Nails influence was evident. He told the small crowd that Rose's new favorite saying has been "loop it, loop it!"

http://www.w-axl-rose.com/News/News_Archives_1997.html

I don't know how many or if any of them ended up on CD, but I think it's safe to assume there's a lot of completed/half-completed songs already recorded, If they had 15 songs as early as 97 there should be a lot of songs by now.

[wasted]

Also Zutaut called Atlas a glam rock Nov Rain and saw it as the first single.

Jackie Chan/checkmate?

Goin Down is like the Oh my God of CD II.

Lyrically Berlin is Oklahoma about Erin and lawyers trying to destroy Axl. Obvious electro dance jam.

Soul Monster has a venomous scream.

Jackie Chan

The General

Atlas Shrugged

are CD II 's most wanted.

[Rovim]

Also Zutaut called Atlas a glam rock Nov Rain and saw it as the first single.

Jackie Chan/checkmate?

Goin Down is like the Oh my God of CD II.

Lyrically Berlin is Oklahoma about Erin and lawyers trying to destroy Axl. Obvious electro dance jam.

Soul Monster has a venomous scream.

Jackie Chan

The General

Atlas Shrugged

are CD II 's most wanted.

Curious about Seven as well. Just the title, and that Marco Beltrami considered it the best from what he worked on. I want to hear it. He worked on Thyme as well, but he actually wrote on Seven.

Here is the Gn'R bit of the interview about the 4 songs he worked on:

IGN: Since we're talking about rock musicians, what was the deal with you arranging some orchestral sections for the impending Guns N Roses album?

Marco Beltrami: That was sort of just work for hire. I guess they'd heard some of my orchestral music of mine. I met with Axl and he played me these songs, asked me my ideas about them, and I told him what I thought they needed. They gave me four songs to orchestrate. A couple of them I did more than orchestrating, I actually wrote some melodies and stuff. It was a fun project. I really enjoyed it. The music was eclectic and at the time that I was doing it there were no lyrics on the songs that I was working on. People ask me about the album and I really have no idea about the release. I thought it was coming out last September. I'm the wrong person to ask about that.

IGN: He came to you with the tracks then, so you weren't ever in the studio with the musicians or anything like that

Marco Beltrami: No, they had finished tracks. On one song I actually wrote a guitar part, but they pretty much had the band tracks down and then I added orchestral stuff on top of it.

IGN: What songs were they, by chance?

Marco Beltrami: A song called "Seven," which is the one that I did the most work on, I actually did some writing on. There was one called "Thyme," one called "The General," one called "Leave Me Alone."

IGN: How was that as an experience? Do you have any future plans to work with more rock musicians or is it more like you'll take it as it comes?

Marco Beltrami: I enjoyed it quite a bit. It was different than doing film music, but it was a lot of fun. I would probably do it again. It would probably be more fun at some point, to do it as a more collaborative affair, starting more from scratch, working and writing stuff [together]. But it was definitely fun.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Rovim

[megaguns1982]

People forget that releasing records is exactly like borrowing money from a bank these days.

Is Axl confident, And are the record label confident?

Thats the reason why there is no music.

Nobody is confident.

[robin2002]

Also Zutaut called Atlas a glam rock Nov Rain and saw it as the first single.

Jackie Chan/checkmate?

Goin Down is like the Oh my God of CD II.

Lyrically Berlin is Oklahoma about Erin and lawyers trying to destroy Axl. Obvious electro dance jam.

Soul Monster has a venomous scream.

Jackie Chan

The General

Atlas Shrugged

are CD II 's most wanted.

Curious about Seven as well. Just the title, and that Marco Beltrami considered it the best from what he worked on. I want to hear it. He worked on Thyme as well, but he actually wrote on Seven.

Here is the Gn'R bit of the interview about the 4 songs he worked on:

IGN: Since we're talking about rock musicians, what was the deal with you arranging some orchestral sections for the impending Guns N Roses album?

Marco Beltrami: That was sort of just work for hire. I guess they'd heard some of my orchestral music of mine. I met with Axl and he played me these songs, asked me my ideas about them, and I told him what I thought they needed. They gave me four songs to orchestrate. A couple of them I did more than orchestrating, I actually wrote some melodies and stuff. It was a fun project. I really enjoyed it. The music was eclectic and at the time that I was doing it there were no lyrics on the songs that I was working on. People ask me about the album and I really have no idea about the release. I thought it was coming out last September. I'm the wrong person to ask about that.

IGN: He came to you with the tracks then, so you weren't ever in the studio with the musicians or anything like that

Marco Beltrami: No, they had finished tracks. On one song I actually wrote a guitar part, but they pretty much had the band tracks down and then I added orchestral stuff on top of it.

IGN: What songs were they, by chance?

Marco Beltrami: A song called "Seven," which is the one that I did the most work on, I actually did some writing on. There was one called "Thyme," one called "The General," one called "Leave Me Alone."

IGN: How was that as an experience? Do you have any future plans to work with more rock musicians or is it more like you'll take it as it comes?

Marco Beltrami: I enjoyed it quite a bit. It was different than doing film music, but it was a lot of fun. I would probably do it again. It would probably be more fun at some point, to do it as a more collaborative affair, starting more from scratch, working and writing stuff [together]. But it was definitely fun.

Really hope we hear some of Beltrami's work on the next album. Pretty sure that interview was around 2004/2005, so that's 10 (or nearly) 10 years and we've still not heard any of it. Gotta admit I love the orchestration on Prostitute, TWAT, Street of Dreams and Prostitute on Chinese, wasn't that Paul Buckmaster that done them though?

Edit - That Beltrami interview was from October 2002.

Just noticed that Marco Beltrami has a piece called 'Chinese Democracy' on the '3:10 to Yula' 2007 film.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zkWN6H4-kI

Edited December 11, 2014 by robin2002

[Apollo]

People seem to be forgetting that other people listened to songs years prior to the release of CD and said that some songs, that didn't end up on CD, was the better of the lot:

"Leave Me Alone," "Seven," and "The General" could also feature on the new album. These three A-listed songs were worked on by Marco Beltrami, especially "Seven," which Marco deems as the best of the three songs (Jeff Leeds, Sp1at website, June 2005).

One of my favorite songs is this song called 'The General', which is so... it's by far the heaviest metal tune I think I've ever heard Axl do, this slow, grinding riff with these high, piercing vocals, screaming vocals. [...] (Baz, Metal Edge, July 2007).

And Axl talking about The General: Well, this comes out on the third record. It relates to [Estranged], it's a trilogy, this goes with this lyrically [Metal Edge, June 2007]

the fact that axl already referenced a third album as early as 07 makes me believe there is ton of material left that we haven't heard. of course im skeptical, but going down kind of pushed me back into the thinking that axl has boat loads of material. im thinking there are probably around 15-20 songs completed at least in the same form as Going Down is complete. honestly i would not be surprised if its more then 20. i think we'd be idiots to assume he has spent his entire adult life since the illusions came out and only has the songs we heard on Chinese in his pocket. now whether or not we hear them and if they are any good is another story.

Why hold onto those "A list" songs for a decade before releasing them?

[SoulMonster]

People seem to be forgetting that other people listened to songs years prior to the release of CD and said that some songs, that didn't end up on CD, was the better of the lot:

"Leave Me Alone," "Seven," and "The General" could also feature on the new album. These three A-listed songs were worked on by Marco Beltrami, especially "Seven," which Marco deems as the best of the three songs (Jeff Leeds, Sp1at website, June 2005).

One of my favorite songs is this song called 'The General', which is so... it's by far the heaviest metal tune I think I've ever heard Axl do, this slow, grinding riff with these high, piercing vocals, screaming vocals. [...] (Baz, Metal Edge, July 2007).

And Axl talking about The General: Well, this comes out on the third record. It relates to [Estranged], it's a trilogy, this goes with this lyrically [Metal Edge, June 2007]

the fact that axl already referenced a third album as early as 07 makes me believe there is ton of material left that we haven't heard. of course im skeptical, but going down kind of pushed me back into the thinking that axl has boat loads of material. im thinking there are probably around 15-20 songs completed at least in the same form as Going Down is complete. honestly i would not be surprised if its more then 20. i think we'd be idiots to assume he has spent his entire adult life since the illusions came out and only has the songs we heard on Chinese in his pocket. now whether or not we hear them and if they are any good is another story.

Why hold onto those "A list" songs for a decade before releasing them?

The songs not ready, being a ridiculous perfectionist, questioning their relevancy as Buckethead left, having troubles with the label, feeling down because of CD's reception, focussing on touring, pissing of Apollo, being mentally on a downer, fighting lawsuits, focussing on other hobbies, questioning their relevancy as Finck left, wanting to release music with the current lineup. feeling the songs are now dated, not "feeling" it, having lost the muse that is needed to write lyrics, wants exercise from touring before laying down the finishing vocals, not sure whether a new record is the right format for new music, needing to tour more to finance finishing the records, friction in the bands from band members who want the next record to only contain their music, feeling the whole vision behind the CD project having been somewahet diluted al these years and looking for new inspiration and concept for the music?

[DieselDaisy]

You forgot, being a lazy fuck.

[Apollo]

You forgot, being a lazy fuck.

It is odd how so many other artists are able to release music on a fairly consistent basis. I'm always amazed at the lengths that people will go to come up with excuses for Axl.

[SoulMonster]

You forgot, being a lazy fuck.

I forgot lots of possible explanations but personally I don't consider Axl lazy, and according to people who have worked with him, when he is "on" he works really hard. He is too much of an perfectioning, though, and suffers from long periods of inactivity which is probably more a result of depression and being on the "down" rather than laziness as such. I could be wrong, though, I don't know him.

You forgot, being a lazy fuck.

It is odd how so many other artists are able to release music on a fairly consistent basis. I'm always amazed at the lengths that people will go to come up with excuses for Axl.

Do you know the difference between "an excuse" and "an explanation". It is a subtle one, I will give you that.

What is odd is that to be such a fan boy of Axl you still seem utterly confused and perplexed over the fact that he isn't prolific at releasing music.

[Apollo]

You forgot, being a lazy fuck.

I forgot lots of possible explanations but personally I don't consider Axl lazy, and according to people who have worked with him, when he is "on" he works really hard. He is too much of an perfectioning, though, and suffers from long periods of inactivity which is probably more a result of depression and being on the "down" rather than laziness as such. I could be wrong, though, I don't know him.

You forgot, being a lazy fuck.

It is odd how so many other artists are able to release music on a fairly consistent basis. I'm always amazed at the lengths that people will go to come up with excuses for Axl.

Do you know the difference between "an excuse" and "an explanation". It is a subtle one, I will give you that.

What is odd is that to be such a fan boy of Axl you still seem utterly confused and perplexed over the fact that he isn't prolific at releasing music.

Do you know the difference between fact and opinion? Or between having discussions with people and being an egotistical know-it-all douche all the time?

You aren't friends with Axl, nor do you know what is really going on in his head and with his life/career. So your "explanations" are really just you making excuses/guesses/etc.

"Utterly confused and perplexed"...........is this how you talk to people in real life? Are you capable of chatting with people without being so condescending all the time?

You must be a ton of fun at parties.

[seagullview]

You forgot, being a lazy fuck.

Hmmm...lazy is a very abstract word to me. Same as stupid. What does it mean? Lack of motivation? Depression?

It's a very simple explanation that doesn't mean much