Where does Iron Mike rank all time?

[wasted]

Ali was dancing around and talking but Tyson would have killed him in his prime.

Better men than Mike tried and failed.

No one better in his prime by the looks of things. But a lot of Ali footage is black and white so you can't get the jist. But Mike before D'Mato died or that chick messed with him. Before he was champ was unstoppable.

[wasted]

Ali would have been a chump in this day and age. I just can't see him being able to bite a boxer, go to jail for rape and still keep his coke and cialis style going. Mike was just completely spoilt by the times but he lived through it. Ali was probably a better boxer but fuck that, Tyson would have headbutt end him and had a rematch. Don Simpson would turn it into a media nightmare. We could stage the fight inside a maximum security prison.

[Bards]

Went with Top 20. I can't in good conscience go with top 10 when he's no higher than 3rd in his generation, which wasn't exactly the pinnacle of the heavyweight division. Might even fall out of my top 20, but I'd have to put some serious thought into it.

Edited December 20, 2014 by Bards

[RandallFlagg]

I do agree Tyson was an absolute monster, devastating, that fucking brutal left hook right uppercut of his was ungodly.. it's that old thing, could have been the greatest but his record tells the story... solid solid career, under-achieved you could say but Lewis and Holyfield weren't exactly slouchers were they lol. He's an all time great but at the lower end, I'd say top 20. His reputation and potential make up a colossal part of his mystique, that's fine, that's what you want as a fighter but you gotta back it up and reign victorious against the best of your era, no shame in losing but it paints your career regardless of your highest peaks, as Apollo pointed out, you can't disregard the rest of your resume. I'd say he was over by the Lewis fight though, his kinda relentless style from such a ridiculously young age usually burns fast and short if they can't adapt to a longer span of time like a Pacman.

Oh yeah and no Douglas rematch kinda robbed of us the chance to see Iron Mike gain redemption, everyone ought to be allowed that in an upset victory, Douglas would prove a hell of a lot more disposing of Tyson twice.

[Len Cnut]

The reason there weren't these huge calls for a Douglas rematch cuz everyone knew what happened there and it weren't a case of like, Buster cracking the Tyson code, it was more a case of Buster cracking the Tyson when he can't be bothered training properly and acting like a cunt in Japan whilst surrounded by lots of birds and doing cocaine....code

[wasted]

Yeah and that's whyTyson is the Greatest. Well you know not like Ali but of that Gen. Everyone knows in sports who's the best and who wins isn't always a sign of that.

Today, if Tyson fought Ali in they primes I put my money on Tyson.

It might be J-lo v Marylin but I'm going with the booty bitches.

[Len Cnut]

It would be embarassing for Mike, 'exposed' would be the word.

[wasted]

Fuck that. You're just going through a mid fan crisis. Axl, Tyson and Tarantino are shiznit. Fuck all those old bastards. Those 70s homos.

Fuck that. You're just going through a mid fan crisis. Axl, Tyson and Tarantino are shiznit. Fuck all those old bastards. Those 70s homos.

Fuck that. You're just going through a mid fan crisis. Axl, Tyson and Tarantino are shiznit. Fuck all those old bastards. Those 70s homos.

Fuck that. You're just going through a mid fan crisis. Axl, Tyson and Tarantino are shiznit. Fuck all those old bastards. Those 70s homos.

[Len Cnut]

OR...Im not blind and I'm a Tyson fan too man.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Lennie Godber

[wasted]

I thin you should question your perception.

[Len Cnut]

I thin you should question your perception.

I think you should retire yours if you think Axl and Tyson are the young bastards of the day...you do know it's 2014 and they're into the arse end of middle age now, right?

[wasted]

There's nothing now to match Axl and Tyson. Money and Bieber. No way.

[Len Cnut]

Axls a wanker and everyone knows it. He's literally embarassing to claim to be a fan of, it's difficult to come up with anything as comparably pants as being a fan of Axl Rose so I'm gonna drop that one. As for Tyson, the main reason why a Tyson will never touch an Ali is because fundamentally, Tyson is a bottler. He doesn't have the moral courage to do the things Ali did, when he is under pressure he reacts like cowards react, his voice breaks up, he cries, we've seen this throughout his life whether it was when he was 15 before the Junior Olympics or now as a grown up, middle aged, when recalling how he used to get bullied in school or recalling some other such trauma. He is fundamentally a lesser human being than the sort of person that makes a Muhammad Ali.

When Tysons back is against the wall, he folds or he runs. Teddy Atlas saw this in him in a very early age, quite a few people did actually, Larry Holmes is another. You can be taught all the skill, you can turn all your traumas into fuel for your ferocity...but you can't teach bottle, you can't teach that ability to keep forging forward when the odds are greater than what you got. But Ali could. And did, several times.

Tyson, fundamentally, is a bottler. This is why he was always so fond of degrading opponents by saying things like 'he was crying in there, like making woman gestures' because he understands what it is to be that kind of victim, he understands how something like that cuts right into the male psyche because emotionally, thats where he comes from, the little fat bullied kid in school with his meatballs wrapped in tinfoil getting his glasses broke. When he's confronted with someone or something he can't just bully into submission he cows, he's lost, he eats punishment and he folds. And he did that against, I'm sorry to say, in my opinion, one of the biggest frauds in boxing history and that is Lennox Lewis, who i personally think is nowhere near as due the sort of credit he gets. And Tyson couldn't even get passed him.

Tyson, in his heart of hearts, in terms of the grand Shakespearian notion of what courage is, is a pussy. He's emotional, he's easily shook. Can you imagine a Sonny Liston or an Ali or a Ray Robinson or any of these great champs, a Joe Louis, crying on TV? Goin' on these fuckin' afternoon talk shows for women and having a bit of a cry?

Edited December 22, 2014 by Lennie Godber

[streak]

Tyson would always struggle against a taller fighter with a jab who could use his height/weight advantage to tie him up on the inside. Watch his fight with Tony Tucker. Although Tucker lost, he fought a good fight, and clearly showed he had some kind of plan. Whatever Ali was post 73, he had an excellent boxing brain, and he would flick the jab, and tie him up on the inside, and do his usual tricks to win rounds. Tyson has a poor inside game and it shows. Ali could take a shot, but Tyson had amazing speed, which the likes of shavers didn't.

Tony Tucker didn't rate Tyson, and rated Lewis more apparently.

Holyfield did it to him too. Tyson went in there and tried to blast him up, but instead got frustrated and ran out of steam and got stopped. In gthe second, more of the same plus the blatant headbutts which tipped him over the head. Plus at that time, his training and lifestyle were catching up to him.

Tyson has to be top ten. Youngest ever champ (which wont be beaten in my opinion), cleaned his division, and well. If people can have Foreman and Frazier in there, then why not him? You could argue he could beat both of them.

[wasted]

That's not how sports works, if you know.

Just because you convince yourself that Axl is all these terrible things. Wait TIL he's dead. Then you love black n white. Athena style.

[Len Cnut]

I dunno what the fuck you just said man

[wasted]

I vin.

[Len Cnut]

fair dues

[Iron MikeyJ]

Tyson would always struggle against a taller fighter with a jab who could use his height/weight advantage to tie him up on the inside. Watch his fight with Tony Tucker. Although Tucker lost, he fought a good fight, and clearly showed he had some kind of plan. Whatever Ali was post 73, he had an excellent boxing brain, and he would flick the jab, and tie him up on the inside, and do his usual tricks to win rounds. Tyson has a poor inside game and it shows. Ali could take a shot, but Tyson had amazing speed, which the likes of shavers didn't.

Tony Tucker didn't rate Tyson, and rated Lewis more apparently.

Holyfield did it to him too. Tyson went in there and tried to blast him up, but instead got frustrated and ran out of steam and got stopped. In gthe second, more of the same plus the blatant headbutts which tipped him over the head. Plus at that time, his training and lifestyle were catching up to him.

Tyson has to be top ten. Youngest ever champ (which wont be beaten in my opinion), cleaned his division, and well. If people can have Foreman and Frazier in there, then why not him? You could argue he could beat both of them.

I agree with most of your post, but disagree with some of it. For one, Tyson was trained to fight bigger guys, and he actually excelled against them early in his career (before 1990). But the thing bigger guys learned to do was hold him, tie him up, and lean on him. Which made for less than stellar fights (Bonecrusher Smith, etc) but those guys didn't really stand much of a chance of beating him, they just kind of were waiting him out until the final bell rang, like going to decision was a moral victory for those guys. Honestly the fighters that had the most success against Mike was the guys that danced and jabbed like Ali. Obviously Mike never ran into anyone near as good as Ali, so he was able to get those guys out of there as well. But if you go back and watch the Quick Tillis, Mitch "Blood" Green, and even the Larry Holmes fights, you will see that style had the potential to beat Mike. Hell look at Douglas, jabs and crosses are what beat Mike that day (except Mike really won, as we discussed earlier). But not the big guys leaning on him, like you said. Yes that worked later on against old Mike (which is basically every fight after Holyfield IMO, because Mike pretty much gave up after losing to Holyfield, stopped training, too many drugs, etc). But against Prime Mike? No way. That's why Prime Mike would have dismantled Lewis, but by the time they fought, Mike had lost his speed and timing, he became a one punch knockout show, ala Shavers.

You said Mike was never a great infighter??? What???? He was the master of that, thats when he was dangerous. Keeping him at a distance gave you the best odds of beating him.

The first Holyfield fight can be summed up the following ways IMO. Yes Evander had a pretty smart game plan to tie Mike up and walk him back to the ropes. Which Evander did the whole fight, and cut the ring down as to make it harder on Mike to use his speed avantage. But having said that, Evander also fought a VERY dirty fight, by intentionally butting Tyson. Even George Foreman went on record att one point and said "Evander was the dirtiest fighter he ever faced. He uses his big head to butt and try to open cuts." Now to those who didn't notice it, would say "But it hurts Evander as well." But the thing is, he used the top of his head, or his forehead to open cuts around the eyes of the opponent. Go back and watch some Holyfield fights, he does it in about every damn fight. Warrior my ass, he was a cheap ass dirty fighter. Big George fought over 70 guys and said Holyfield was the worst....

So in the 2nd fight, Mike lost it because Holyfield did it again and opened a cut right above his eye. It was still early in the fight and he put Mike at a disadvantage already, Mike got pissed and wanted revenge. That doesn't make it right, but history has written Holyfield as some sort of hero and Mike as the villian, when actually Holyfield got dirty well before Mike did.

Having said that, Mike wasn't the same fighter by that point anymore either. He still had the skills and the talent, but he lost the disclipline. He stopped going to the body and became a head hunter. But had Mike gotten a rematch against Buster, than fought Evander in 1991, I'd bet the farm the 90's is written A LOT differently.

[Bards]

I don't think Tyson beats Holyfield in '91. The only way history changes if that fight happens is that people jump off the Tyson train that much sooner.

As an aside, re-watched Tyson-Holmes and Larry was quite prophetic about what was going to happen to Tyson later in life.

[streak]

Why wouldn't he beat Holy in 91?

[Bards]

Why wouldn't he beat Holy in 91?

I think a better question is why *would* he? He had already entered the unfocused "i don't give a shit" stage and that would have been the fight of Holyfield's life to that point. I don't know that I see it going much differently than in '96, although one could argue Evander was a step quicker in '91.

[Len Cnut]

I don't think Tyson beats Holyfield in '91. The only way history changes if that fight happens is that people jump off the Tyson train that much sooner.

As an aside, re-watched Tyson-Holmes and Larry was quite prophetic about what was going to happen to Tyson later in life.

'i'm goin' down in history not Mike Tyson, Mike Tyson gon' go down in history as a SOB. And if he do happen to win...the fight, sooner or later, down the line, he gon' destroy himself'.

Larry was just pissed cuz he knew Tyson was gonna batter him If you watch that fight, right about the part where he gets knocked out Larry tries to do this little slick short Ray Leonard semi-bolo type uppercut, gets his hand caught in the ropes and he can see this Tyson right hand headed for him and his facial expression is just like...OH SHIT

Tyson knocked him THE FUCK out, they were putting that motherfucker in the recovery position afterwards Tyson knocked him out so hard his arse fell first and the rest of him followed 3 seconds later like Looney Tunes Tyson didn't just beat him up, he beat him DOWN. Clubbed him down.

Night night Larry Beat him like a fuckin' ginger step-child.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Lennie Godber

[Iron MikeyJ]

Why wouldn't he beat Holy in 91?

I think a better question is why *would* he? He had already entered the unfocused "i don't give a shit" stage and that would have been the fight of Holyfield's life to that point. I don't know that I see it going much differently than in '96, although one could argue Evander was a step quicker in '91.

Because losing to Douglas actually refocased Tyson, until he went to Prison that is. Go watch Tyson vs Ruddock 1 and 2. Evander Holyfield at his very best would have gotten steam rolled by either Tyson or Ruddock at that time. That is why Mike takes Holyfield in 1991, by a knockout even. Holyfield actually got smarter after he got his ass handed to him twice by Riddick Bowe. But before that, he wanted go stand in the center of the ring and trade shots. Tyson LOVED it when they wanted to stand there and trade shots, Evander in 1991 was taylor made for Mike. Honestly I think Mike takes out THAT Evander in 6 rounds. Holyfield was at his best in 1995 and 1996, he got smarter, stopped trying to just out punch harder hitting guys. He beat Mike because he out smarted him (as I explained earlier), not because he was "better." I have most of Holyfield's fights on dvd also, so I know what I'm talking about. You gotta remember, like Mike, Holyfield was a smaller heavyweight (for that time anyways). But when he first won the title, he really thought he was the biggest, baddest mother on the block. Riddick Bowe set him straight on that flawed logic.

On a side note; besides Tyson's entire career, I also have most of Holyfield's, most of Sugar Ray Leonard's, most of Roy Jones jr's, and the best of Big George Foreman, Earnie Shavers, Lennox Lewis, Marvin Hagler, and Tommy Hearns. I found this guy on ebay a few years back that made bootleg dvd's of many legends and I raided his collection.

[Iron MikeyJ]

Speaking of Holmes, Holyfield fought him 4 years after Mike, yet he took Holyfiled to decision. So by your logic, either Holmes magically got a lot better 4 years after Mike knocked him out or perhaps what I said is true. Holyfield wasn't that good during his initial reign. He was at his best in 1996~7.