Where does Iron Mike rank all time?

[DieselDaisy]

I will say this to your points, Ali would have gotten in Mike's head for sure. So I do have to give you that. He'd have Mike so frustrated and pissed off, he probably would have tired Mike out, cause Mike would get mad and swing for the fences. I can hear Ali saying something like this to him "Strike 1 Mike, ohh, strike two Mike. What else you got?? Strike 3 Mike" Then Ali peppers him with jabs and crosses. So ya, Mike probably doesn't stand much of a chance.

I will say this though, 60's Ali, dancing and floating being quicker than shit is the recipe for beating Mike. The rope a dope shit actually favors Mike IMO. Even though Mike might spend extra energy trying to land one, its a lot easier to hit Ali when he is laying on the ropes, than it was when he danced around the ring. Honestly i feel Jack Johnson would have been 60's Ali tuffest opponent, out of all heavyweights. Even as great as Joe Louis was, I don't give him much of a chance against 60's Ali, he was just too fast and too elusive IMO.

You are making the same underestimation a lot of people make of Ali. The guy was tough. People just assume an cocky out boxer has a weak chin, but Ali could slug like the best of them. And look at that punishment he took in Zaire. Are you saying Tyson is more destructive than George's haymakers?

[Len Cnut]

I don't necessarily agree with that y'know. I mean i still think a dancing Ali would beat him...and pretty comprehensively too but like, Ali wasn't untouchable...and when he danced and the shit was easy for him he started to nap. He napped against Henry Cooper and got put on his arse. He napped against Doug Jones and walked, literally stepped right onto a shot and got put on his arse. Now imagine that being a Tyson shot. 99 times out of a 100 he wouldn't've found shit....but what when he did? And like, out of the heavy hitters Ali fought none of them were like, leapers. Now imagine Ali leaning back, whilst dancing, as he did...and Tyson coming in with one of those wide sweeping hooks...with Ali on the back-foot. A lot about their styles and their mistakes when put together make for a really interesting clash of styles.

And y'know Ali wore out a Liston who was likely in his late 30s at that point. Who came in expecting to eat Ali alive, just bang him out. Then consider Mike, trained to fuck, finely tuned to a T. It's definitely a different proposition. Don't get me wrong, I ain't making a case for Mike to beat Ali the dancer by any means but i don't think it's good to assume that he would have it easier. i think the best Ali for Mike was like, first Frazier fight Ali myself.

He said a lot of times around the Foreman fight when people were saying 'oh Ali, maybe before when you could dance but not now!' and he was like I'll do better now that I would have then, I'm stronger now, I'm grown, not like when you saw that little boy running and sticking Sonny Liston', now you could say that thats Ali bravado at play but i don't necessarily think it is, if you listen to him he often used to explain shit all out and he was rarely wrong. And lo and behold, it turned out that way.

He certainly wouldn't've bounced on the spot in front of his face like he did with some, in his dancer days.

[Iron MikeyJ]

Ali would have found away. I could only envision a Tyson (1988 peak) victory over Ali, if it was Ali, post Thrilla in Manila.

Sorry, but 80's Tyson takes out post Thrilla Ali 10 out of 10. Ali had nothing left after that fight....

What a load of cack. He beat Norton, Shavers, Jimmy Young during that period and was third time world champion.

Oh come on man, out of those 3 Shavers would have been Mike's only real competition either. Norton ALWAYS struggled against heavy hitters, Mike would have ko'ed Norton within 6. Jimmy Young??? He's not even worth mentioning. Plus who did Ali lose to? Leon fucking Spinks. Mike would take out Leon within' 3 rounds. These are not world beaters you bring up man, as a matter of fact didn't many of them lose to guys like Trevor Berbick or Tony Tubbs and other guys Mike dismantled on his way to the top??? I don't know for sure, but they were all top contenders, so they probably fought each other. Norton was overrated as fuck, he fought Ali well, but thats it really. He folded against all other top fighters. Shavers is the only real fighter you mentioned, which Mike would have taken him out as well IMO.

[Len Cnut]

I don't think Dies' meant that those fighters would've beat Mike, he's just saying Ali fought tough bouts in the timeframe highlighted.

[Len Cnut]

What was that about not being superhuman?

[Iron MikeyJ]

I don't think Dies' meant that those fighters would've beat Mike, he's just saying Ali fought tough bouts in the timeframe highlighted.

I agree that they were tough fights for an aging Ali. But a prime Ali would have licked the lot of em'. But all those guys have very bad losses on their records, I was just looking at them. Randall "Tex" Cobb beat both Norton and Shavers. Cobb also struggled to win a majority decision against Mike jamison, a guy that Tyson damn near ripped his face off. Also it took Cobb 6 rounds to beat Michael Jack Johnson, who Tyson damn near made his nose become an "innie" in round 1. Sure it was different fighters and what not, but still... Also Cobb lost to "Quick" Tillis, who took Tyson to his first decision, but Mike was in charge during the whole fight...

[Len Cnut]

Ahhhhh, Michael Jack Johnson, GOD i loved that Tyson fight!

[T.wa.T]

Tyson would have lost to Ali. Ali would have picked him off with his jab and footwork in his heyday. In the early-mid 70s it would have been a more even contest but I feel, Ali would have found a way as he usually did; Tyson would not be prepared for Ali's chin. Prime time Foreman would have beaten Tyson also.

PS

What would you say was Tyson's style? He always seemed like an in-fighter to me, the way he gets close and takes opponents out with a series of uppercuts and bodyblows, but I have heard experts and such say that he was technically, a puncher. Perhaps a combo.

I'd say he was a boxer/puncher in his prime, than a straight puncher in the later years of his career.

Tyson loved to slip the lead jab, rip his opponent to the body & follow that up with a hook or uppercut. Left jab, right hook to the body, right uppercut. Speed and power.

Besides punishment, a body blow also makes the other dude drop his arm a bit leaving an opening at the head.

There are videos showing Mike perfecting this with Teddy Atlas.

Teddy/Cus developed a number system to simplify Mikes

attacks. Tyson became a master of the Peek a Boo style because he was so damn strong and fast. While he was on guard (hands up), he was also on the attack, looking for an opening. Which is the beauty of the Peek a Boo, being on the attack while in a defesive posture.

Floyd Patterson was great at that style as well, just not as fast and strong as Tyson.Hell, Floyd Patterson used to leave his feet when throwing his left hook, bad intentions all over it. That's what D'amato taught those two. Throw every punch with bad intentions. Its pretty cool that Cus trained the two youngest heavyweight champions.

Edited December 18, 2014 by T.wa.T

[Len Cnut]

Floyd also had a chandelier for a jaw

[DieselDaisy]

Tyson would have lost to Ali. Ali would have picked him off with his jab and footwork in his heyday. In the early-mid 70s it would have been a more even contest but I feel, Ali would have found a way as he usually did; Tyson would not be prepared for Ali's chin. Prime time Foreman would have beaten Tyson also.

PS

What would you say was Tyson's style? He always seemed like an in-fighter to me, the way he gets close and takes opponents out with a series of uppercuts and bodyblows, but I have heard experts and such say that he was technically, a puncher. Perhaps a combo.

I'd say he was a boxer/puncher in his prime, than a straight puncher in the later years of his career.

Tyson loved to slip the lead jab, rip his opponent to the body & follow that up with a hook or uppercut. Left jab, right hook to the body, right uppercut. Speed and power.

Besides punishment, a body blow also makes the other dude drop his arm a bit leaving an opening at the head.

There are videos showing Mike perfecting this with Teddy Atlas.

Teddy/Cus developed a number system to simplify Mikes

attacks. Tyson became a master of the Peek a Boo style because he was so damn strong and fast. While he was on guard (hands up), he was also on the attack, looking for an opening. Which is the beauty of the Peek a Boo, being on the attack while in a defesive posture.

Floyd Patterson was great at that style as well, just not as fast and strong as Tyson.Hell, Floyd Patterson used to leave his feet when throwing his left hook, bad intentions all over it. That's what D'amato taught those two. Throw every punch with bad intentions. Its pretty cool that Cus trained the two youngest heavyweight champions.

Oh, he was an one punch guy in his decline haha, just walking around waiting for that one punch. In his heyday though he used to like to close in quick, establishing a distance near to an in-fighter's

[T.wa.T]

Tyson would have lost to Ali. Ali would have picked him off with his jab and footwork in his heyday. In the early-mid 70s it would have been a more even contest but I feel, Ali would have found a way as he usually did; Tyson would not be prepared for Ali's chin. Prime time Foreman would have beaten Tyson also.

PS

What would you say was Tyson's style? He always seemed like an in-fighter to me, the way he gets close and takes opponents out with a series of uppercuts and bodyblows, but I have heard experts and such say that he was technically, a puncher. Perhaps a combo.

I'd say he was a boxer/puncher in his prime, than a straight puncher in the later years of his career.

Tyson loved to slip the lead jab, rip his opponent to the body & follow that up with a hook or uppercut. Left jab, right hook to the body, right uppercut. Speed and power.

Besides punishment, a body blow also makes the other dude drop his arm a bit leaving an opening at the head.

There are videos showing Mike perfecting this with Teddy Atlas.

Teddy/Cus developed a number system to simplify Mikes

attacks. Tyson became a master of the Peek a Boo style because he was so damn strong and fast. While he was on guard (hands up), he was also on the attack, looking for an opening. Which is the beauty of the Peek a Boo, being on the attack while in a defesive posture.

Floyd Patterson was great at that style as well, just not as fast and strong as Tyson.Hell, Floyd Patterson used to leave his feet when throwing his left hook, bad intentions all over it. That's what D'amato taught those two. Throw every punch with bad intentions. Its pretty cool that Cus trained the two youngest heavyweight champions.

Oh, he was an one punch guy in his decline haha, just walking around waiting for that one punch. In his heyday though he used to like to close in quick, establishing a distance near to an in-fighter's

Lol, yeah that's the shame of it all.

One thing about watching Tyson get knocked out, especially against Lewis & Douglas, it was like watching King Kong fall off the Empire State Building. It took a hell of a beating, followed by a long slow fall, that shit hurt to watch as a fan of his, lol.

[wasted]

Was Douglas the fight where he was doing coke in Japan for and didn't train. After he lost his trainer he wasn't the same. But he could hurt people that's what he was trained to do. Ali was dancing around and talking but Tyson would have killed him in his prime.

[Len Cnut]

Ali was dancing around and talking but Tyson would have killed him in his prime.

Better men than Mike tried and failed.

[DieselDaisy]

Was Douglas the fight where he was doing coke in Japan for and didn't train. After he lost his trainer he wasn't the same. But he could hurt people that's what he was trained to do. Ali was dancing around and talking but Tyson would have killed him in his prime.

Yes (the fight was in Tokyo Dome) he was up all night with hookers and drugs in a Japanese hotel.

Edited December 19, 2014 by DieselDaisy

[Len Cnut]

You could tell he was out of shape in that fight, look at his midriff.

Thats Mike in good nick.

Thats Mike at the Douglas fight.

[Iron MikeyJ]

He took the fight off, and Douglas was prepared for the fight of his life, plain and simple. Two things that really bother me about Buster are; Tyson SHOULD have gotten an automatic rematch instead of Holyfiled getting a shot. I don't want to hear no BS about contracts, name me another time where a champ lost and didn't get an automatic rematch. I STILL to this day say its BS that Mike didn't get a rematch. After all the work HE put in to unite the division and the titles, they let Holyfield get next crack at Buster, sounds like some fixed shit to me. Secondly, Mike tried for YEARS to get Buster back in the ring, after Mike got out of prision all the way up until he fought Lewis. Buster was scared as shit to give Mike a rematch, which makes me totally lose respect for Buster.

My Uncle lives in Columbus Ohio, Buster's home town. He has even met him an a couple occasions. Buster is the biggest thing from that city besides Ohio State football, they love the guy, and rightfully so. But I've had to hear my Uncle go on and on about how "Buster was better than Mike, Beat his ass, etc." But everytime I bring up these facts he gets all quiet, because deep down inside he knows its true. Buster had one great day and refused to tarnish it by fighting Mike again, which I understand. But at the same time, its taking the pussy way out if you ask me, if he really thought he was better than Mike, he wouldn't of been afraid to fight him again...

[Len Cnut]

Something else that bothers me is that Tyson CLEARLY knocked him out for a 10 count in the 11th, CLEARLY, i don't give a fuck what anyone says, watch it, it's ridiculous, the guy got put away. Count along with it, at the proper pace, he got knocked the fucked out with an uppercut, he gives all this bullshit in the documentary about 'oh i had my senses and it was just the force of the punch that took me down and my legs and everything were there, fuck off, it wasn't even a proper Mike uppercut, it was a short one and the cunt got put on his fuckin' arse.

In that documentary i was telling you before, with the panel of old timers, to quote Angie Dundee 'the guy got knocked out, the referee was going 'and a-oner....and a two-er....and a three-er, the guy must've had arthiritic elbows' (in reference to the way refs bend and extend their arm, point fingers according to how far into the count they are). Ridiculous. And no one points this out because in the glee to finally call Tyson dropped people ignored that shit as just Don King hyperbole but it weren't.

Watch that from 2:30, count along...and if that ain't a 10 count then you're telling lies. Thats damn near a 16 count. The fact is the ref started rooting for Douglas halfway through when he saw that he was fuckin' making it against Mike. Tell your uncle that Buster went bye bye in the 11th round.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Lennie Godber

[T.wa.T]

No doubt the count was slow. It was a big controversy, especially since Mike lost.

Douglas was a 42~1 dog for a reason. He just picked the right night to put it together and put Tyson out. I thought Douglas retired after the loss to Evander. He wasn't a major player anyways, guy got lucky pain n simple..

I'm still amazed though at the amount of punches it too to put Iron Mike down, what was it?? 19 unanswered shots to the head/face. The end started before that nasty uppercut he ate, he took a few before that and them some more after. Crazy.. Same with the Lewis fight, the accumulation of punches he took before he was KO'd was impressive. Damn, even when Evander put him out in the 11th. That was a pretty sick fight, the hype for that was off the charts to. Really wish he would have beaten Holyfield one time, Lewis? Ok, he's a big dude but Evander was right in Mikes wheel house, he just didn't catch him. Good time for the heavy weight division too...

[Len Cnut]

I would've thought Lewis should've been easier. *sigh* could've, should've, would've..

[Iron MikeyJ]

Agreed. The video expalins it perfectly, Buster DID get knocked out. And beyond that, Mike would have taken the Holyfield fight (who he would have fought next) very seriously after Buster damn near beat him. As I've said before, Evander could not handle THIS Mike, so Tyson knocks out Holyfield and boom history looks a lot different.

[Len Cnut]

I didn't even hear what the video explained, i posted it at work where i don't have speakers, it was an oft-expressed perspective that isn't so oft-expressed anymore for some reason.

[T.wa.T]

What you guys think about Evander. Obviously a badass in the ring,, full of heart etc... But the guy must have had PED factory in his basement. Maybe it was because he was a blown up cruiser but man was he blown up.

Great Heavyweight & A Great Champ

Edited December 19, 2014 by T.wa.T

[Len Cnut]

I don't like him personally but as a boxer you gotta respect the man, he was the truth, he was 100%, can't fault the guy. Can't lie though, never liked him, i was always supporting the other guy with Evander, whether it was Bowe or Tyson. And yeah, to be really truthful, a lot of my dislike for him comes from his being a Tyson opponent Sounds stupid but you gotta remember I was 14 years old when those fights happened, you're kinda precocious at that age And then obviously the controversy of the first and ear biting of the second, he was never gonna be a favorite to me.

And for another thing, something we ain't touched upon, Mike 'antics', Mikes 'behaviour' uh...how do i explain this? I come from a certain kind of...people that loved that shit The ear biting, the kicking off at press conferences, the street-fights, that just made Mike all the more the man to me I know how thats wrong and stupid and juvenile and all that shit but look, I'm just stating the fucking obvious.

Afterwards, especially when it was relating to fights it did kinda leave a bad taste in your mouth and now I'm older if i could had the choice between Mike NOT being a bad man and him excelling as a fighter I'd pick the latter all day long but i can't deny that a lot of why i loved Mike was cuz he was like that, was cuz he was the one to shout 'PUT YOUR MOTHER IN A STRAIT-JACKET YOU PUNK ASS WHITEBOY!' and all that crazy shit.

Taking our grown up caps off for a second, come on now, am i alone, does anybody just love that shit? And y'know whatever else you might say about Mike, there's a certain breed of man, of guys, of lads, who across the world love Mike Tyson and rate him as a bloke and thats because, as unsettling as it might be, he went and acted out what most people only speak of on couches with their boys, half-drunk watching the fight going 'shit, if i was up in there and i was Mike Tyson i would've done this, this and this'...well Mike actually did this, this and this.

And I'm not just talking about grimy little hooligans either, I'm talking about rated characters, whether it's in like hip hop or something (a culture in which Mike Tyson is about as respected as you can get) or the underworld, people like Reggie Kray used to write to him in jail...people like Lenny McLean, bare-knuckle boxing legend is on record saying he wouldn't like to fight Mike anyway or how, this guy gets serious serious respect.

It's that particular kinda fuckin' middle class type folks, snotty motherfuckers, thats who the newscasters are angling for when all the controversy used to happen and they was like 'this has no place in boxing, it's a disgace, a disgrace!', we were cheering that shit on After the first Holyfield bite and crazily Mills Lane called that shit on again and they went for it then stopped then Tyson shoved Holyfield i was like 'YEAH!!! NOW ICE THAT MOTHERFUCKER!!'

And last but not least, wherever there are fighting men in this country, whether it's bare knuckle fighters here or like, your UFC type motherfuckers in America or martial artists in like Japan, China, all over the world he is rated and respected, this guy has met with Presidents, dignitaries, important people around the world, you can't say thats cuz they're into street shit too, there really is something about the guy.

Honestly, on a certain level, Mike has earned his respect and that will exist until he dies and well after too. With my clinical hat on, I could've asked for more at certain key stages from Mike and I've been quite vocal on here about that...but at the same time man, I'm so happy for what he did give? And y'know what else, everything else aside I remember those nights, those fights, the excitement, that feeling that anything could happen at any moment...and we're about to see some shit really go down. And i can't remember feeling that for a looooong long long time in this sport.

'really needing no introduction the world over...' remember those words? Whether or not you respect all of the aforementioned types of people or not is irrelevant, the point is all in all, all told, the guy gets a tremendous amount of respect. More so than any other boxer in recent years, I can't think of no living one who gets more aside from of course Mr Ali. Trying to think of one but I can't, not thats alive.

Y'know you might look down on a lot of those kinds of people but they're still people with love in their hearts and they got that for Mike Tyson. As a kid Mike appealed to me most because, apart from flattening motherfuckers he kinda showed me that, OK, you don't have to be shit or come from shit, you could be the type of person that people rate the least...but still do it, still get it done, still get to that level where men will hear your name spoken and HAVE to give respect.

And then you know, all the people that tore Mike Tyson, the columnist, the womens groups, the snotty middle class talk show panelists, the kinds that wanna ban rap music and prattle on about 'the kids', these old make up hags with dyed roots and paralysed looking faces going he's this that and the third. The middle class silent majority that never shuts the fuck up, fuck those people anyway, they were never the audience to begin with, it ain't about them or nothing they've got to do with.

Mike was the remedy. My old man would probably tell me that kind of respect means nothing and what Ali had was respect. Has even. Can't say I'd disagree about the last bit at least.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Lennie Godber

[Dazey]

[Jackamo!]

G.O.A.T.

Mainly because he has a Scooby-Doo like cartoon show where he goes around solving mysteries with a pigeon voiced by the great Norm Macdonald.