Vaccination

[Dazey]

A friend of mine overseas is against the vaccinations and posts all the time about how more children die from vaccinations than they do from the diseases they are trying to vaccinate against.

I think it best to vaccinate but can't answer questions like : If you vaccinate your child why are you worried when we don't as you say you are protected?

A healthy diet of (insert lots of foodstuff here) is much better than the vaccine, eat healthy while pregnant & give healthy food to your kids & they won't need to be vaccinated.

I'd like views on these type of articles, I won't have the flu vaccine as I don't like what's in it but then again I don't get colds or flu either. When I had cancer I was bombarded with information on how to cure it without having chemo that I got desperate as everything they mention is illegal here, not available and I didn't have time to go a different way only to find it didn't work and by the time I found that out the cancer would have spread even further.

My friend knows someone who 'cured' their child of cancer by diet and the Dr is amazed, I said to believe that I'd need to see the before and after tests and speak to the Dr. I can't just believe it because they say so.

Anyone against vaccines have a view?

http://yournewswire.com/unvaccinated-children-healthier-than-vaccinated-study-proves/

I really don't want to offend you R4E but your friend is an idiot.

[rock4eva]

A friend of mine overseas is against the vaccinations and posts all the time about how more children die from vaccinations than they do from the diseases they are trying to vaccinate against.

I think it best to vaccinate but can't answer questions like : If you vaccinate your child why are you worried when we don't as you say you are protected?

A healthy diet of (insert lots of foodstuff here) is much better than the vaccine, eat healthy while pregnant & give healthy food to your kids & they won't need to be vaccinated.

I'd like views on these type of articles, I won't have the flu vaccine as I don't like what's in it but then again I don't get colds or flu either. When I had cancer I was bombarded with information on how to cure it without having chemo that I got desperate as everything they mention is illegal here, not available and I didn't have time to go a different way only to find it didn't work and by the time I found that out the cancer would have spread even further.

My friend knows someone who 'cured' their child of cancer by diet and the Dr is amazed, I said to believe that I'd need to see the before and after tests and speak to the Dr. I can't just believe it because they say so.

Anyone against vaccines have a view?

http://yournewswire.com/unvaccinated-children-healthier-than-vaccinated-study-proves/

I really don't want to offend you R4E but your friend is an idiot.

She's actually lovely but is very much into this and that everything is a hoax type of stuff. She thought MH17 in Ukraine was a hoax until I told her a schoolfriend of mine was on it which made her rethink it.

I was wondering if you have vaccinated your little one. I don't believe vaccines cause autism but when I produce evidence via internet of course they come back with their evidence that it does via internet.

I am at a total loss, feels like I'm living in a bubble that everyone knows all these terrorist attacks are fake/hoaxes except me

[Dazey]

She's actually lovely but is very much into this and that everything is a hoax type of stuff. She thought MH17 in Ukraine was a hoax until I told her a schoolfriend of mine was on it which made her rethink it.

I was wondering if you have vaccinated your little one. I don't believe vaccines cause autism but when I produce evidence via internet of course they come back with their evidence that it does via internet.

I am at a total loss, feels like I'm living in a bubble that everyone knows all these terrorist attacks are fake/hoaxes except me

Oh I'm sure shes nice but shes ridiculously ignorant. I mean to even utter such a statement as "more children die of vaccines than from the diseases" is just the most stunningly ridiculous thing Ive ever heard.

I mean there's just no evidence whatsoever to support such a claim. It really does just boggle the mind that anybody in this day and age can hold such a retarded opinion.

Oh and yes we've vaccinated her for everything that is available thus far. She still has a few more to go but absolutely we're vaccinating because not to do so is plainly idiotic.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Dazey

[rock4eva]

She's actually lovely but is very much into this and that everything is a hoax type of stuff. She thought MH17 in Ukraine was a hoax until I told her a schoolfriend of mine was on it which made her rethink it.

I was wondering if you have vaccinated your little one. I don't believe vaccines cause autism but when I produce evidence via internet of course they come back with their evidence that it does via internet.

I am at a total loss, feels like I'm living in a bubble that everyone knows all these terrorist attacks are fake/hoaxes except me

Oh I'm sure shes nice but shes ridiculously ignorant. I mean to even utter such a statement as "more children die of vaccines than from the diseases" is just the most stunningly ridiculous thing Ive ever heard.

I mean there's just no evidence whatsoever to support such a claim. It really does just boggle the mind that anybody in this day and age can hold such a retarded opinion.

Oh and yes we've vaccinated her for everything that is available thus far. She still has a few more to go but absolutely we're vaccinating because not to do so is plainly idiotic.

There's evidence to "prove" vaccinations cause autism but problem is I looked into the Dr who made this claim.

He is from the UK, he submitted fraudulent paperwork to the Lancet which is a scientific magazine and was barred from practicing medicine in the UK for life.

I think he admitted it. I sent the link of the German Measles baby who died to my friend who has come back with more "evidence" that vaccines are unnecessary.

Don't know if this is becoming a big deal right now or just that I seem to be reading so much about the anti-vaccine people lately.

Hope you're enjoying your baby girl, treasure every moment with her. It's such a lovely time of their life to spend with them, babyhood goes way too fast. I'm really happy for you.

[Dazey]

There's evidence to "prove" vaccinations cause autism but problem is I looked into the Dr who made this claim.

He is from the UK, he submitted fraudulent paperwork to the Lancet which is a scientific magazine and was barred from practicing medicine in the UK for life.

I think he admitted it. I sent the link of the German Measles baby who died to my friend who has come back with more "evidence" that vaccines are unnecessary.

Don't know if this is becoming a big deal right now or just that I seem to be reading so much about the anti-vaccine people lately.

But there really isn't any evidence and that's the thing. In this context the only thing that counts is genuine peer reviewed studies and not the ramblings of some hippy on the Internet.

The ENTIRE medical establishment agree on this and the UK doctor who started the scare was found to have totally fabricated his findings. He has been banned from ever practicing medicine in the UK again for serious professional misconduct which surely says something.

Does any of the "evidence" your friend has shown you have any basis in genuine scientific study by respected medical professionals?

Hope you're enjoying your baby girl, treasure every moment with her. It's such a lovely time of their life to spend with them, babyhood goes way too fast. I'm really happy for you.

Thank you. I'm loving every minute of it. Edited February 24, 2015 by Dazey

[SoulMonster]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_controversy

The problem is that parents now fear the almost always negligable side-effects of vaccines more than the diseases they are against. This newly acquired non-fear of these terrible diseases is in a way a testament to how fantastic the vaccines are: they have almost eradicated some of the gravest diseases that have plagued mankind and left us with lesser problems to worry about.

I think vaccination for certain diseases should be mandatory, not up to stupid parents.

[DieselDaisy]

Totally disagree. The state should not be given such power to enforce mandatory vaccinations.

[Dazey]

Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger I guess.

Well, except polio that is. .........

[SoulMonster]

Totally disagree. The state should not be given such power to enforce mandatory vaccinations.

Which is fine. But I find it paradoxical that we, say, enforce wearing seat belts, which only damage yourself, but allows an imporant decision like vaccination, which can potentially affect the rest of the population, as we see now with the new spread of measles, to be a parental option. I also find it problematic that any parent can make such an important decision for another human being, even if they are their children. Because, seriously, many parents are complete imbeciles and not trustworthy to have any potential to realistically make a good decision based on anything but feelings and whatever they read off the Internet or hear from their friends at Facebook.

Edited February 24, 2015 by SoulMonster

[DieselDaisy]

You would give the state the power to cull the population, you would. There is no limits to, what powers Soul would hand over to the states.

[GUNNER PT]

The reason some parents may the link with autism is because symptoms of the condition often become noticeable around about 18 months which is the time frame for vaccinations in particular the MMR. As humans tend to do they look for a cause and effect then confirmation bias takes over.

This.

[SoulMonster]

You would give the state the power to cull the population, you would. There is no limits to, what powers Soul would hand over to the states.

Funny. Haha. But can you defend how the state can demand that we do things certain ways for our own health (like wearing seat belts), but not demand that we do things in certain ways for the common health (like vaccinating us)? To me, you only come across as a non-informed curmudgeon who haven't really thought things through.

[rock4eva]

There's evidence to "prove" vaccinations cause autism but problem is I looked into the Dr who made this claim.

He is from the UK, he submitted fraudulent paperwork to the Lancet which is a scientific magazine and was barred from practicing medicine in the UK for life.

I think he admitted it. I sent the link of the German Measles baby who died to my friend who has come back with more "evidence" that vaccines are unnecessary.

Don't know if this is becoming a big deal right now or just that I seem to be reading so much about the anti-vaccine people lately.

But there really isn't any evidence and that's the thing. In this context the only thing that counts is genuine peer reviewed studies and not the ramblings of some hippy on the Internet.

The ENTIRE medical establishment agree on this and the UK doctor who started the scare was found to have totally fabricated his findings. He has been banned from ever practicing medicine in the UK again for serious professional misconduct which surely says something.

Does any of the "evidence" your friend has shown you have any basis in genuine scientific study by respected medical professionals?

Hope you're enjoying your baby girl, treasure every moment with her. It's such a lovely time of their life to spend with them, babyhood goes way too fast. I'm really happy for you.

Thank you. I'm loving every minute of it.

I'm glad you know who I'm talking about, can't remember his name but someone quoted him on youtube but several of us looked him up and you are right. He was banned for life but I haven't heard anything back from the person who put the original submission post on.

I look up the medical professionals to see if they're credible and the link she sent me regarding the baby dying (she says it must have been vaccinated) was so long I couldn't understand a bloody word of it. If you want to try and decipher it I'll put it up - good luck but your understanding might be better than mine.

Basically what the anti vaccine people say is that the diseases were just about wiped out when the vaccines were brought in, seeing as the virus is in the vaccine it has re-created these illnesses all over again. They claim that cancer can be cured by cannibas but as the medical world don't make money out of it they keep it hidden and provide us with chemicals like chemo instead.

The Dr the link was about was a Richard Moskowitz in San Francisco - it seems many people were unhappy with his style of doctoring by cancelling appts, short time to see him and big bills etc.

Here's a little of what he had to say

There is widespread agreement that the time period since the common vaccines were introduced has seen a remarkable decline in the incidence and severity of the natural diseases corresponding to them. But the facile assumption that the decline is also attributable to them remains unproven, and continues to be questioned by eminent authorities in the field. With whooping cough, for instance, both the incidence and severity had already begun to decline precipitously long before the vaccine was introduced, a fact which led the epidemiologist C. C. Dauer to remark, as far back as 1943:

“If mortality [from pertussis] continues to decline at the same rate during the next fifteen years [as in the last fifteen], it will be extremely difficult to show statistically that [pertussis vaccination] had any effect in reducing mortality from whooping cough.”

Much the same is true not only of diphtheria and tetanus. but of TB, cholera, typhoid, and other common scourges of a bygone era, which began to disappear rapidly at the end of the nineteenth century, doubtless partly in response to improvements in sanitation and public health, but in any case long before antibiotics, vaccines, or any specific medical initiatives to combat them.

[DieselDaisy]

You would give the state the power to cull the population, you would. There is no limits to, what powers Soul would hand over to the states.

Funny. Haha. But can you defend how the state can demand that we do things certain ways for our own health (like wearing seat belts), but not demand that we do things in certain ways for the common health (like vaccinating us)? To me, you only come across as a non-informed curmudgeon who haven't really thought things through.

The context of seat belts is completely different from the care of a child.

I must remind you that I vehemently oppose statist solutions. I disagreed with the smoking ban. I think airport security is absurd. The less the state interferes in our life, is generally a good thing.

[GUNNER PT]

Some diseases could be almost eradicated, but they aren't, because some illuminati insist not to vaccinate their children.

Without vacination and other medical care, modern society wouldn't exist.

The same way I can't walk my dog in the street without proper vaccination, people who refuse vaccination should live wild and free in the jungle ... now you tell me if this isn't some kind of autism ...

[Dazey]

The Dr the link was about was a Richard Moskowitz in San Francisco.

With a background in Oriental medicine and other forms of natural healing, Dr. Moskowitz studied homeopathy with George Vithoulkas in Greece and Rajan Sankaran and others in India.

So that's that settled then. He's clearly a nut.

[rock4eva]

The Dr the link was about was a Richard Moskowitz in San Francisco.

With a background in Oriental medicine and other forms of natural healing, Dr. Moskowitz studied homeopathy with George Vithoulkas in Greece and Rajan Sankaran and others in India.

So that's that settled then. He's clearly a nut.

[Dazey]

The Dr the link was about was a Richard Moskowitz in San Francisco.

With a background in Oriental medicine and other forms of natural healing, Dr. Moskowitz studied homeopathy with George Vithoulkas in Greece and Rajan Sankaran and others in India.

So that's that settled then. He's clearly a nut.

See they have to call it "alternative medicine" because if it worked it would just be "medicine".

[Dazey]

In all seriousness though I admire your patience because I just can't talk to people like that. I mean no matter how nice they are I just start to go cross-eyed after listening to them for more than 30 seconds. My ex-girlfriend's mom and stepfather were both the most lovely people you could hope to meet but they were into all that crystals and energies and healing kerfuffle. I literally couldn't get through a two minute conversation with them without feeling like my brains were leaking out of my ears. Especially when they'd try to tie it in with established sciences and would just be using words that they clearly had no understanding of whatsoever.

Also when it comes to any conspiracy theorist there's a very simple check you can carry out that will save you from having your head fucking battered by mindless ramblings. Basically you tend to find in my experience that somebody who starts talking to you about a particular conspiracy theory generally isn't an otherwise normal and sane person who sees everything else in life from a clear logical perspective. They generally tend to see conspiracies in everything which means that they have no bullshit detection ability and will refuse to believe a simple explanation no matter how much evidence you present to them. At this point you don't need to try to convince them of anything else, you simply smile nicely at them, back away towards the door and leave them to their fantasies because they're clearly a lost cause.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Dazey

[DieselDaisy]

I am a staunch believer in oriental medicine myself.

[SoulMonster]

Basically what the anti vaccine people say is that the diseases were just about wiped out when the vaccines were brought in, seeing as the virus is in the vaccine it has re-created these illnesses all over again. They claim that cancer can be cured by cannibas but as the medical world don't make money out of it they keep it hidden and provide us with chemicals like chemo instead.

The diseases weren't just about wiped out when vaccine were brought in. Some were less frequent or less severe due to better hygienics and treatment, but without vaccines they would still be a big problem. Look at he case of measles below:

There isn't viruses in vaccines, but inert virus components. A virus can't reconstitute itself from these components.

And lastly, the idea that alternative, efficient remedies, like cannabis, haha, exist but are kept hidden by big pharma, is pure conspiracy theory, but very funny.

Edited February 24, 2015 by SoulMonster

[Dazey]

I am a staunch believer in oriental medicine myself.

Like a bit of bear bile and rhino horn do ya Dies'?

[MB.]

In all seriousness though I admire your patience because I just can't talk to people like that. I mean no matter how nice they are I just start to go cross-eyed after listening to them for more than 30 seconds. My ex-girlfriend's mom and stepfather were both the most lovely people you could hope to meet but they were into all that crystals and energies and healing kerfuffle. I literally couldn't get through a two minute conversation with them without feeling like my brains were leaking out of my ears. Especially when they'd try to tie it in with established sciences and would just be using words that they clearly had no understanding of whatsoever.

Also when it comes to any conspiracy theorist there's a very simple check you can carry out that will save you from having your head fucking battered by mindless ramblings. Basically you tend to find in my experience that somebody who starts talking to you about a particular conspiracy theory generally isn't an otherwise normal and sane person who sees everything else in life from a clear logical perspective. They generally tend to see conspiracies in everything which means that they have no bullshit detection ability and will refuse to believe a simple explanation no matter how much evidence you present to them. At this point you don't need to try to convince them of anything else, you simply smile nicely at them, back away towards the door and leave them to their fantasies because they're clearly a lost cause.

So this!

I have a friend who is in these kind of things, I can't talk to her anymore. She annoys me so much! Our friendship went down the hill a couple of years ago, when I refused to let her unvaccinated kids near my newborn. I admit part of me doing that, was to annoy her

She is also into that other hoax, the detoxing one. I can't convince her detoxing is a hoax. She buys pils, makes green expensive smoothies, waste so much money on that. Sure it's fine to drink smoothies, but you can't detox your body yourself by drinking smoothies or using detoxing pils. She still believes firmly in it. I am way too grounded and base my opinion on facts, so I can't communicate with people like that.

[Len Cnut]

I am a staunch believer in oriental medicine myself.

Serious? Does it work then? They've got a gaff round here with all that, hundreds of these jars with what looks like tree barks and all sorts of carry on.

[SoulMonster]

To quote Dawkins: Alternative medicine is a "...set of practices which cannot be tested, refuse to be tested, or consistently fail tests. If a healing technique is demonstrated to have curative properties in properly controlled double-blind trials, it ceases to be alternative. It simply...becomes medicine."

The same goes for "oriental medicine". If it turns out to have efficacy it will be adopted by "medicine" and used outside of "the Orient", too.