Minus 3 or Minus 1?

[Free Bird]

39 minutes ago, ludurigan said:

I was wondering about "knowledge" specially "musical knowledge" and i remembered a quote from the great Tostao (Brazil 1970 football world champion) when he says something about great players doing great/magic stuff on the field. Tostao says something like "these players know how to do (the magic stuff) but they probably dont know how they know", meaning that sometimes they take instinctive actions on the field (they do not have time to think it over) and it works -- but if you ask them how they did the "megic stuff" they will likely have a bit of a hard time to explain "how" or even "why" they did it.

I think something similar happens to guys like Izzy when it comes to songwriting/arranging/structuring songs, to Slash when it comes to create a riff, or to Axl when it comes to create a vocal melody. When Izzy takes a song to this direction instead of that direction, it is likely due to his instinct and to what feels/sounds right to him, a kind of knowledge that he likely didnt take from any book but probably is inside hime because of all the years he spent listening to music -- he uses to say how much the Ramones were influential to him and you can tell that in GNR and in his solo music.

This sorta knowledge can not really be taught in any music school I suppose!

I think you're right. Songwriting is a talent that you can not learn. Either you have it or not. I think your point is a big factor why AFD and LIES are such great records. You can hear the spontaneity. They didn't think too much about how create the songs. It was instinctive.

[EvanG]

You're talking like it's all about Izzy in this band. Don't forget that more than half of the UYI albums were written without Izzy and he didn't co-write every song on Appetite either. I would want him there just as much as anyone else, but it's not like they haven't written good songs without him. Maybe they should bring back Gilby if Izzy refuses to, because his songwriting abilities speak for itself when you listen to his first solo album and the songs he wrote for the Snakepit album.

Also, my Snakepit booklet is from 1995 too and Izzy isn't mentioned in it, so this is the first time I've heard about it too.

Edited June 14, 2017 by EvanG

[EvanG]

On 2017-6-10 at 5:36 PM, ludurigan said:

Izzy helped Slash write Locomotive. Slash said it himsellf in his book.

There is zero evidence that Izzy didnt help with the other tracks. He surely must have helped with something, specially arrangements and song structure.

 

Just like there is zero evidence that he did. We can argue about this till the cows come home, but we don't know how the dynamics work in a band. All we know, from Duff's book, is that Izzy had already ''kinda left'' the band at the time and he would send in his ideas on a tape and he wasn't around much. Doesn't mean he contributed nothing to other people's songs, of course. But again... we can't know that.

[lassie]

Some of the best songs was written by Axl alone, Don't Cry. November Rain. Estranged etc. Those that all people know and love.

[Izzymacbeth]

2 hours ago, lassie said:

Some of the best songs was written by Axl alone, Don't Cry. November Rain. Estranged etc. Those that all people know and love.

What the hell are you talking about? Izzy and Axl co-wrote Don't Cry. The first song they ever wrote together for GN'R. 

Edited June 15, 2017 by Izzymacbeth

[ludurigan]

2 hours ago, lassie said:

Some of the best songs was written by Axl alone, Don't Cry. November Rain. Estranged etc. Those that all people know and love.

the ammount of misinformation being spread on every single thread of this forum is really inspiring!

[lassie]

44 minutes ago, ludurigan said:

the ammount of misinformation being spread on every single thread of this forum is really inspiring!

Is it wrong that he wrote those songs alone? I know they are very popular for the ordinary guy or girl, not us there know all there songs.

[lassie]

Alright alright, that is true, but November Rain and Estranged and Dead Horse and Breakdown and Shotgun Blues, those he wrote alone

[ludurigan]

22 minutes ago, lassie said:

Alright alright, that is true, but November Rain and Estranged and Dead Horse and Breakdown and Shotgun Blues, those he wrote alone

[lassie]

1 minute ago, ludurigan said:

1 hour ago, Izzymacbeth said:

What the hell are you talking about? Izzy and Axl co-wrote Don't Cry. The first song they ever wrote together for GN'R. 

Please forgive me, i am so sorry

[lassie]

Nothin' lasts forever
And we both know hearts can change
And it's hard to hold a candle
In the cold November rain, it was just one mistake, can you please forgive me, i don't know what to do.

[Free Bird]

7 hours ago, lassie said:

Alright alright, that is true, but November Rain and Estranged and Dead Horse and Breakdown and Shotgun Blues, those he wrote alone

Even if he wrote them alone they would be half the songs they are without Slash's guitar. Do you think Axl wrote Slash's guitar parts?

[lassie]

7 minutes ago, Free Bird said:

Even if he wrote them alone they would be half the songs they are without Slash's guitar. Do you think Axl wrote Slash's guitar parts?

No of course he did not do that, you sure sound angry, i just wrote some songs Axl made.

[EvanG]

20 minutes ago, Free Bird said:

Even if he wrote them alone they would be half the songs they are without Slash's guitar. Do you think Axl wrote Slash's guitar parts?

I'm sure Axl wrote some of the guitar parts himself... he does play some guitar on a few tunes on the UYI albums. Solos most likely not, although maybe Axl explained to Slash how he wanted it to sound like.

[Izzymacbeth]

9 hours ago, lassie said:

Please forgive me, i am so sorry

Don't sweat it, its ok to be wrong you know. We all are sometimes. 

☺️

[Free Bird]

5 hours ago, EvanG said:

I'm sure Axl wrote some of the guitar parts himself... he does play some guitar on a few tunes on the UYI albums. Solos most likely not, although maybe Axl explained to Slash how he wanted it to sound like.

I don't think Axl wrote the significant guitar parts himself nor did he say how Slash should play them.

[Mendez]

6 hours ago, EvanG said:

I'm sure Axl wrote some of the guitar parts himself... he does play some guitar on a few tunes on the UYI albums. Solos most likely not, although maybe Axl explained to Slash how he wanted it to sound like.

Considering both Slash and Axl talk about how Slash created the guitar parts for Estranged in the 'making of' video (and how grateful Axl says he was for it), I am sure Axl did not tell Slash how to play it

[lassie]

6 hours ago, Free Bird said:

Even if he wrote them alone they would be half the songs they are without Slash's guitar. Do you think Axl wrote Slash's guitar parts?

You can't beat me, you can't break me, for i am fucking crazy, you can take that home boy.

[EvanG]

9 hours ago, Mendez said:

Considering both Slash and Axl talk about how Slash created the guitar parts for Estranged in the 'making of' video (and how grateful Axl says he was for it), I am sure Axl did not tell Slash how to play it

I wasn't talking about that specific song, but in general.

10 hours ago, Free Bird said:

I don't think Axl wrote the significant guitar parts himself nor did he say how Slash should play them.

How would you know? Were you there during the band rehearsals?

You guys don't even know how it works in bands. I've been playing in bands most of my life. When I go to band rehearsal with a song I have written, I play it on guitar for my band and then tell them how I want their parts to sound like. For example, I'm not a drummer, but when I bring in a song I already know exactly in my head how I want the drums to sound like... what kind of beat, where I want the fills, etc. So I explain that to my drummer and together we work on what I have envisioned. 

I don't know how it worked in GnR during the UYI days, but I can only imagine that in a lot of bands it works the same way. Especially when Axl already knew basic stuff on guitar, I don't think it's crazy to assume that he explained or showed Slash and Izzy how he wanted (some of) the guitar parts to sound like. Doesn't mean Slash and Izzy didn't contribute anything to songs where Axl is only credited for, but it's silly to assume that Slash or Izzy are responsible for every riff/lick on every Axl song. Even for a solo I can imagine the main writer of the song having an idea of how they want it to sound like.

 

[Izzymacbeth]

13 minutes ago, EvanG said:

I wasn't talking about that specific song, but in general.

How would you know? Were you there during the band rehearsals?

You guys don't even know how it works in bands. I've been playing in bands most of my life. When I go to band rehearsal with a song I have written, I play it on guitar for my band and then tell them how I want their parts to sound like. For example, I'm not a drummer, but when I bring in a song I already know exactly in my head how I want the drums to sound like... what kind of beat, where I want the fills, etc. So I explain that to my drummer and together we work on what I have envisioned. 

I don't know how it worked in GnR during the UYI days, but I can only imagine that in a lot of bands it works the same way. Especially when Axl already knew basic stuff on guitar, I don't think it's crazy to assume that he explained or showed Slash and Izzy how he wanted (some of) the guitar parts to sound like. Doesn't mean Slash and Izzy didn't contribute anything to songs where Axl is only credited for, but it's silly to assume that Slash or Izzy are responsible for every riff/lick on every Axl song. Even for a solo I can imagine the main writer of the song having an idea of how they want it to sound like.

 

Exactly how it works. Someone comes up with an idea and explains it to the other members. I'm always telling our drummer how the drums should sound and our drummer and bass player are always showing me and the other 2 guitarists chord paterns, riffs and licks on guitar. Its how a band works, you have to have basic knowledge of instruments you dont play in order to write as a unit. 

[EvanG]

28 minutes ago, Izzymacbeth said:

Exactly how it works. Someone comes up with an idea and explains it to the other members. I'm always telling our drummer how the drums should sound and our drummer and bass player are always showing me and the other 2 guitarists chord paterns, riffs and licks on guitar. Its how a band works, you have to have basic knowledge of instruments you dont play in order to write as a unit. 

Exactly. Even for songs like November Rain and Estranged I can imagine them sitting together and Axl describing to Slash the guitar melodies he has in his head, and Slash transcribing them to the guitar and perhaps still contributing some cool ideas to it while getting inspired and working them out together. I don't know if that's how it happened, I wasn't there, but it's not as unlikely as some people here think. Not every lick, riff, or even solo in every GnR song comes neccessarily from the mind of Slash or Izzy. 

Edited June 16, 2017 by EvanG

[ludurigan]

On 6/14/2017 at 8:05 AM, EvanG said:

Just like there is zero evidence that he did. We can argue about this till the cows come home, but we don't know how the dynamics work in a band. All we know, from Duff's book, is that Izzy had already ''kinda left'' the band at the time and he would send in his ideas on a tape and he wasn't around much. Doesn't mean he contributed nothing to other people's songs, of course. But again... we can't know that.

The illusions were written during basically 3-4 years. Some songs were written before appetite was even released. Steven said he played on like 10 or 13 Illusion tracks. Izzy was there during this time period. Whatever quote you got from Duff's book stating that Izzy "kinda left" the band he was likely talking about a very specific period of time (that must have last some months, likely when Izzy was drying out) when a lot of songs were already written. A lot of writing and recording happened BEFORE the actual Illusion sessions that took place sometime around 1990. Izzy himself mentioned that they have gone in studio to record the album TWO times before the actual Illusion sessions that took place in 19990. That means they likely did A LOT of recording and or writing sessions previously to the actual sessions -- and Izzy was likely there on all these sessions that probably took place in 1988-1989, mostly 1989.

[EvanG]

53 minutes ago, ludurigan said:

The illusions were written during basically 3-4 years. Some songs were written before appetite was even released. Steven said he played on like 10 or 13 Illusion tracks. Izzy was there during this time period. Whatever quote you got from Duff's book stating that Izzy "kinda left" the band he was likely talking about a very specific period of time (that must have last some months, likely when Izzy was drying out) when a lot of songs were already written. A lot of writing and recording happened BEFORE the actual Illusion sessions that took place sometime around 1990. Izzy himself mentioned that they have gone in studio to record the album TWO times before the actual Illusion sessions that took place in 19990. That means they likely did A LOT of recording and or writing sessions previously to the actual sessions -- and Izzy was likely there on all these sessions that probably took place in 1988-1989, mostly 1989.

I'm not gonna debate when the most songs were written, because we both can't know that. I can imagine a song like ''estranged'' being written in 1990 because of the ''I'm only 28'' lyric, so I'm sure there are more songs written after 1989. But it's beside the point anyway.

My point was that we can't know how much Izzy contributed to songs where he didn't get a songwriting credit for. I'm not saying he didn't contribute anything, but it's ignorant to say that he must have helped with every track songwriting wise because I'm sure that is not the case. It's not hard to believe that there are Axl or/and Slash songs where Izzy didn't contribute anything to creatively speaking.

Edited June 16, 2017 by EvanG

[Blackstar]

Approximate UYI songs timeline (in regards to writing) based on the information available:

• Back Off Bitch: pre-GnR
• November Rain: Axl had started writing it pre-GnR
• Dead Horse: pre-GnR (according to Slash it existed before he joined)
• Don't Cry: early GnR
• Perfect Crime: early GnR (?)
• Bad Obsession: written pre-AFD (according to Axl it was written before Mr. Brownstone) - reworked for UYI
• Yesterdays: written pre-AFD - reworked for UYI
• The Garden: written pre-AFD - reworked for UYI
• You Could Be Mine: written during the AFD sessions
• Civil War: 1989
• Dust N' Bones: 1989 (complete with lyrics in the Mates Rehearsal tape from December of that year)
• Don't Damn Me: 1989, probably completed in 1990 (on Mates Rehearsal without lyrics)
• Garden Of Eden: 1989, probably completed in 1990 (on Mates Rehearsal without lyrics - also ref. in Slash's and Duff's books as one of the songs written in Chicago in 1989)
• Pretty Tied Up: 1989, probably completed in 1990 (ref. in Slash's book)
• Estranged: 1989 (according to Slash, Axl had stared working on it during the Chicago sessions), completed in 1990 (age ref. in the lyrics)
• Locomotive: 1989, completed in 1990-91 (on Mates Rehearsal without lyrics and the outro - also ref. in Slash's book)
• Coma: 1989, completed in 1990-91 (ref. in Slash's book and in Axl's interviews 1990 and 1992)
• Get In The Ring: 1989 (ref. in Duff's book about the Chicago sessions), completed in 1991
• Double Talkin' Jive: probably 1990 (ref. in Slash's book about the UYI sessions)
• Right Next Door To Hell: 1990-1991 (the incident with Axl's neighbour was in Oct. 1990), probably the music was written before (1989)
• 14 Years: 1990-91 (according to Izzy, one of the last three songs added to UYIs)
• My World: 1990-1991
• Breakdown: unknown (probably 1990)
• Bad Apples: unknown (probably 1989-90)
• You Ain't The First: unknown (probably 1989-90)
• So Fine: unknown (probably 1989-90)
• Shotgun Blues: unknown (probably 1990)

Edited June 17, 2017 by Blackstar

[J Dog]

3 hours ago, Blackstar said:

Approximate UYI songs timeline (in regards to writing) based on the information available:

 

• 14 Years: 1990-91 (according to Izzy, one of the last three songs added to UYIs)

Glad it got added, it's one of the best.