Zep "tuned down" - would it work for Axl/Guns?

[volcano62]

Has to do with knowing by ear for one, also you can ask the musicians themselves. Slash tunes to Eb on most everything he does if I'm not mistaken. If I play Jungle or Don't Damn Me for example in standard, it sounds slightly different than tuning to Eb.

Slightly different? You would be off key and it would sound like total shit.

[RNRS]

I know that in my heart of hearts Guns N' Roses/Sweet Child O' Mine's in Eb, tuned half a step down from E, or is it?

I've found that moving a whole fret up (how one achieve's the transition from Eb to E) gets me playing Sweet Child O' Mine... It's like I know the song, what I knew was okay, move it up a fret and I'm playing it...

Or maybe it was just a backing track in E instead of Eb?

I forget right now but I was wondering about this last week.

A lot of backing tracks are in E.

All GNR albums are recorded in Eb except some tunes on CD that are E standard.

Some CD tunes are tuned down to B also. Such as Shackler's, ITW, and Scraped. And Better is C#

Yeah. Wonder why they make it so complicated!! I guess it don't matter when you own a gazillion guitars tuned differently.

With the amount of work done on Chinese Democracy it wouldn't surprise me if half of it was recorded in a completely different key and then changed to a different tuning altogether when mixing it. Same goes for Axl's vocals. They might all have been recorded 3 steps down and then tuned up on a computer. Who the fuck knows with that record.

[sweetness]

They would have to tune down to like A# standard

[uncivil war]

I know that in my heart of hearts Guns N' Roses/Sweet Child O' Mine's in Eb, tuned half a step down from E, or is it?

I've found that moving a whole fret up (how one achieve's the transition from Eb to E) gets me playing Sweet Child O' Mine... It's like I know the song, what I knew was okay, move it up a fret and I'm playing it...

Or maybe it was just a backing track in E instead of Eb?

I forget right now but I was wondering about this last week.

A lot of backing tracks are in E.

All GNR albums are recorded in Eb except some tunes on CD that are E standard.

Some CD tunes are tuned down to B also. Such as Shackler's, ITW, and Scraped. And Better is C#

Yeah. Wonder why they make it so complicated!! I guess it don't matter when you own a gazillion guitars tuned differently.

The main reason for tuning down is as mentioned above. It's easier for the singer to sing in key. Also, it's easier to bend the strings to get those killer sounds in solos. I also just prefer the sound of the guitar tuned down a half step.

[Caught in a Coma]

Has to do with knowing by ear for one, also you can ask the musicians themselves. Slash tunes to Eb on most everything he does if I'm not mistaken. If I play Jungle or Don't Damn Me for example in standard, it sounds slightly different than tuning to Eb.

Slightly different? You would be off key and it would sound like total shit.

If everyone playing the song plays in the same key, whether E or E flat, why would it sound like shit?

[SlashisGOD]

Has to do with knowing by ear for one, also you can ask the musicians themselves. Slash tunes to Eb on most everything he does if I'm not mistaken. If I play Jungle or Don't Damn Me for example in standard, it sounds slightly different than tuning to Eb.

Slightly different? You would be off key and it would sound like total shit.

If I'm playing by myself, with just one guitar, then yes slightly different. You can still tell what song it is.

[jekylhyde]

Has to do with knowing by ear for one, also you can ask the musicians themselves. Slash tunes to Eb on most everything he does if I'm not mistaken. If I play Jungle or Don't Damn Me for example in standard, it sounds slightly different than tuning to Eb.

Slightly different? You would be off key and it would sound like total shit.

If everyone playing the song plays in the same key, whether E or E flat, why would it sound like shit?

If you play along the original recording, like AFD, and you're using standard tuning, then it sounds off key. If everyone plays in the same key or in the same tuning, live for example, then it wouldn't sound like shit. It would sound higher or lower, more happier or sadder, but shit? Nah.

Velvet Revolver tuned lower when they played live during the Libertad-era, but it was, I guess, cause Scott couldn't hit some higher notes. Axl can hit high notes (most of the time anyway). His problem seems to be that he gets out of breath easily these days.

[Tom2112]

When Zeppelin got together for the Celebration Day concert, the band was required to “tune down a step” to better accommodate Plant’s aging voice. Now I’m not a musician so I don’t fully understand what it means that the band "tuned down a step" (maybe the musicians on the board can elaborate on that), but it seemed to work for the most part when Zep did it. Would something similar work for Guns? As Axl’s voice has and will continue to deteriorate (which is normal and unavoidable as one ages) do you see Gun’s new music being created with this in mind, and are there ways in which the already existing music might be tweaked when played live to better accommodate Axl’s vocals (at least at those times when he seems to be struggling to hit some of the notes)? Is the band already doing this and I just haven’t noticed?

Voices deteriorate as one ages? Do you have medical evidence of this? Can you cite any sources? Just curious. Whenever I hear Steven Tyler, Mick Jagger, David Gilmour, Roger Waters, Sting, Steve Nash, Paul McCartney, David Bowie and a host of other artists well into their 60's (and some even 70's), they all sound better than ever. Do you think it really has to do with age, or the fact that people who don't exercise their voice when their living is singing? I think some people just 'have it' and could walk out on stage. Others work hard staying at the top of their game. Axl's never given a reason for why he sounds like Mickey Mouse often nowadays. So until he does, I'm attributing it to LAZINESS and NOT CARING.

It's kinda true, Sting can't sing some of his earlier material anymore (he more than likely chooses his set based on what his voice can handle, I bet the crazier high stuff is not being played anymore), Tyler struggles with a good bit but he's still doing the job, Mick is not not doing the same thing as Axl... Also everyone of those guy's voices have changed with age. Deteiorate is a strong word but they have changed. https://www.entnet.org/HealthInformation/Voice-and-Aging.cfm

[Tom2112]

Has to do with knowing by ear for one, also you can ask the musicians themselves. Slash tunes to Eb on most everything he does if I'm not mistaken. If I play Jungle or Don't Damn Me for example in standard, it sounds slightly different than tuning to Eb.

Slightly different? You would be off key and it would sound like total shit.

If I'm playing by myself, with just one guitar, then yes slightly different. You can still tell what song it is.

Are you playing the song in it's original position or are you playing everything a fret lower to compensate for the higher tuning of the original. If you're compensating with playing things a semitone lower, it will sound weird (guns use lot's of open position chords, and open string licks "it's so easy"), some parts will work others just won't have the right feel, especially Ebminor open chords, It will sound like Slayer covering GnR if you're playing the songs in standard position and not tuning down it will sound dissonant and wrong, in which case you need some serious ear training help if you think it sounds fine. I'm hoping your transposing for your own sake.

Finally if your just jamming without the song, then it doesn't matter if you tune down a half step or not as long as you play it correctly or as close as you can.

[WhazUp]

The thing with Zep is that the keys that they down tuned to weren't so drastically different that the sounds didn't sound weird. Plus they didn't do that with all of the songs

With GNR they already play a half step down. Reducing the key by another half step would give the songs a strange vibe and a full step would be super low because the low E string on the guitars would be a C#

[SlashisGOD]

Has to do with knowing by ear for one, also you can ask the musicians themselves. Slash tunes to Eb on most everything he does if I'm not mistaken. If I play Jungle or Don't Damn Me for example in standard, it sounds slightly different than tuning to Eb.

Slightly different? You would be off key and it would sound like total shit.

If I'm playing by myself, with just one guitar, then yes slightly different. You can still tell what song it is.

Are you playing the song in it's original position or are you playing everything a fret lower to compensate for the higher tuning of the original. If you're compensating with playing things a semitone lower, it will sound weird (guns use lot's of open position chords, and open string licks "it's so easy"), some parts will work others just won't have the right feel, especially Ebminor open chords, It will sound like Slayer covering GnR if you're playing the songs in standard position and not tuning down it will sound dissonant and wrong, in which case you need some serious ear training help if you think it sounds fine. I'm hoping your transposing for your own sake.

Finally if your just jamming without the song, then it doesn't matter if you tune down a half step or not as long as you play it correctly or as close as you can.

I'm just jamming the songs with no backing track. I admit when I play the November Rain first solo it sounds off, but chords sound ok. I don't tune down at all anyway. I prefer standard to write my own songs. The only time I tune down is when my band rehearses cause my Les Paul can handle it (tuned to D), but my Ibanez has locking tremelo and it's a pain in the ass so I leave it in standard.

[Powerage5]

Has to do with knowing by ear for one, also you can ask the musicians themselves. Slash tunes to Eb on most everything he does if I'm not mistaken. If I play Jungle or Don't Damn Me for example in standard, it sounds slightly different than tuning to Eb.

Slightly different? You would be off key and it would sound like total shit.

If everyone is playing in the same tuning then it's not off key, it's just transposing to a different key. Off key would literally mean playing notes that aren't in the key signature. Transposing isn't really frowned upon by anyone - when a band starts tuning down, that's essentially transposing by a half step (Or however far you tune down).

[TheSeeker]

At the rate he's going, Axl's going to have to start taking his oxygen breaks on-stage instead of off

[moreblack]

Zeppelin didn't even do it for every song either, Whole Lotta Love, In My Time Of Dying, Kashmir, For Your Life, Misty Mountain Hop and Trampled Underfoot were all played in their original tuning. It was just the songs with particularly difficult vocals that got the downtuned treatment. The Axl band guys change guitars all the time so it wouldn't be a big deal to have them play a few songs tuned down.

[IRanOutOfIdeas]

When Zeppelin got together for the Celebration Day concert, the band was required to “tune down a step” to better accommodate Plant’s aging voice. Now I’m not a musician so I don’t fully understand what it means that the band "tuned down a step" (maybe the musicians on the board can elaborate on that), but it seemed to work for the most part when Zep did it. Would something similar work for Guns? As Axl’s voice has and will continue to deteriorate (which is normal and unavoidable as one ages) do you see Gun’s new music being created with this in mind, and are there ways in which the already existing music might be tweaked when played live to better accommodate Axl’s vocals (at least at those times when he seems to be struggling to hit some of the notes)? Is the band already doing this and I just haven’t noticed?

Voices deteriorate as one ages? Do you have medical evidence of this? Can you cite any sources? Just curious. Whenever I hear Steven Tyler, Mick Jagger, David Gilmour, Roger Waters, Sting, Steve Nash, Paul McCartney, David Bowie and a host of other artists well into their 60's (and some even 70's), they all sound better than ever. Do you think it really has to do with age, or the fact that people who don't exercise their voice when their living is singing? I think some people just 'have it' and could walk out on stage. Others work hard staying at the top of their game. Axl's never given a reason for why he sounds like Mickey Mouse often nowadays. So until he does, I'm attributing it to LAZINESS and NOT CARING.

It's kinda true, Sting can't sing some of his earlier material anymore (he more than likely chooses his set based on what his voice can handle, I bet the crazier high stuff is not being played anymore), Tyler struggles with a good bit but he's still doing the job, Mick is not not doing the same thing as Axl... Also everyone of those guy's voices have changed with age. Deteiorate is a strong word but they have changed. https://www.entnet.org/HealthInformation/Voice-and-Aging.cfm

You gotta be fuckin' daft to think that classic singers sound better in their 60's than in their prime.

Like anything biological, one's singing voice does weaken over time. It's common sense. That being said though, a weakening voice can be attributed to other factors such as lack-of-maintenance. It's like your body; if you don't take care of it, it'll blow out [Liam Gallagher is a good example]. Being in better physical shape is also a prominent factor. Whether you wanna deny it or not, you'll sing better if you're healthier/have more stamina.

Axl is a combination of all three and the fact that there's no passion in his singing anymore. If there's no fire to stoke, how can you burn the house down?

[SlashisGOD]

I find some guys sound as good as they did 20-30 years prior. Bruce from Iron Maiden still sounds amazing live. Rob Halford, King Diamond, etc. These guys maintain their bodies and voices and it's no wonder they all sound absolutely amazing.

[TheSeeker]

Paul Rodgers sounds amazing still

[volcano62]

Has to do with knowing by ear for one, also you can ask the musicians themselves. Slash tunes to Eb on most everything he does if I'm not mistaken. If I play Jungle or Don't Damn Me for example in standard, it sounds slightly different than tuning to Eb.

Slightly different? You would be off key and it would sound like total shit.

If everyone playing the song plays in the same key, whether E or E flat, why would it sound like shit?

Of course not. I was talking about playing along with the original track.