The Religion/Spirituality Thread

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2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

So much to unravel here, so little time.

Yes, it is a definition use by humans, it is we that say god is good,but obvious he isn't. What is the nonsense about different blood cells having a differentiating outcome from COVID-19? No one has said the virus is bad, try to reel in your ramblings. A virus is not defined to be living, FYI. What god has to do with it? According to monotheistic religions god has created this world with all that are in it. He has created SARS-CoV-2 and all other pathogens, all genetic mutations that affects us, and all natural phenomena that hurts us.

Yo view earth as a selection process to weed out the filth? Wow. But why did your god create filth to begin with? 

He created filth, of course he did, he creates everything (or rather: he created the environment and the possibilitiy of filth), for two possible reasons:

- first option: to put to test the morality of people. Kind of like the enemies in a video game, and after playing the game you're shown your statistics and you're graded (extremely simplified explanation).

- second option: god created a soup where good or bad things can grow. this is kind of hinted at in the bible. God doesn't know beforehand who will be bad and who will be good. But he only wants the good in the afterlife. Earth is like an AI that creates life, and god comes back after a while and see what earth has cooked up.

God is by nature a very lonely entity. Maybe, because he's so lonely, he wanted to create the afterlife as some sort of giant pub where only good people are allowed? I can imagine, if  I was god, that's exactly what I'd do. But if I created all those people by myself, it wouldn't be "real" or interesting. It's far more interesting to make characters appear at random, and then pick out those you like.

Also, god doesnt care if you think he's bad or good. Why should he?

[SoulMonster]

Just now, action said:

He created filth, of course he did, he creates everything (or rather: he created the environment and the possibilitiy of filth), for two possible reasons:

- first option: to put to test the morality of people. Kind of like the enemies in a video game, and after playing the game you're shown your statistics and you're graded (extremely simplified explanation).

- second option: god created a soup where good or bad things can grow. this is kind of hinted at in the bible. God doesn't know beforehand who will be bad and who will be good. But he only wants the good in the afterlife. Earth is like an AI that creates life, and god comes back after a while and see what earth has cooked up.

God is by nature a very lonely entity. Maybe, because he's so lonely, he wanted to create the afterlife as some sort of giant pub where only good people are allowed? I can imagine, if  I was god, that's exactly what I'd do. But if I created all those people by myself, it wouldn't be "real" or interesting. It's far more interesting to make characters appear at random, and then pick out those you like.

Also, god doesnt care if you think he's bad or good. Why should he?

You are definitely not describing a good god  

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2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

There is no reason why an omnipotent and benevolent god should allow a second of suffering to happen. The world we live in is precarious, indifferent, dangerous, unfair. There is no reason to have created it this way, and vague theories that this will somehow be accounted for in an afterlife just comes across as desperate and empty.

A perfect god would have just put perfect humans in the afterlife immediately without letting they suffer an existence in a world that is entirely indifferent to their pain and suffering. A perfect god would never allow all the pain and misery to take place, and allow innocent people from going through terrible sorrows and pain. A perfect god would have created a perfect world.

And you are wrong in claiming there would be no mortality with god.

the problem is in your definition of "perfect" which is thoroughly anthropocentric

Just now, SoulMonster said:

You are definitely not describing a good god  

so?

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even if god is a sadist, there is not much I can do about that.

What are we supposed to do? Protest on the streets and post our disapproval on twitter? lol.

You can perfectly realise god is bad, and still believe in him. Besides, believing god is bad necessarily implies that you believe in him.

It's curious how intelligent minds can't understand this concept.

[SoulMonster]

26 minutes ago, action said:

the problem is in your definition of "perfect" which is thoroughly anthropocentric

so?

So? Because my original post was about people who believe in a good god. Obviously you are not one of them.

[SoulMonster]

11 minutes ago, action said:

even if god is a sadist, there is not much I can do about that.

What are we supposed to do? Protest on the streets and post our disapproval on twitter? lol.

You can perfectly realise god is bad, and still believe in him. Besides, believing god is bad necessarily implies that you believe in him.

It's curious how intelligent minds can't understand this concept.

Of course you can believe in malicious gods. I mean, who hasn't burnt down a church or two in one's youthly dabbling with satanism and devil worship? I frankly find it somewhat refreshing when people accept their god is evil. It is a at the very least a intellectually sound theology. Personally, I hope I would have had the courage to rebel and fight against an evil god, if I ever thought one existed. 

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4 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

So? Because my original post was about people who believe in a good god. Obviously you are not one of them.

people who believe in a good god, know more than me.

is a black hole good? I don't know about that one, but it certainly exists.

3 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Personally, I hope I would have had the courage to rebel and fight against an evil god, if I ever thought one existed. 

with what? your powerful pen?

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4 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

 I frankly find it somewhat refreshing when people accept their god is evil. 

I don't accept god is evil. I said, there is no indication that he is evil (see a couple of posts above). Suffering on earth does not necessarily mean he is evil, I just explained that to you.

[SoulMonster]

1 minute ago, action said:

people who believe in a good god, know more than me.

Hmm, in this regards I believe you understand more than them.

 

2 minutes ago, action said:

with what? your powerful pen?

Obstinate but ultimately failed rebellion.

Just now, action said:

I don't accept god is evil. I said, there is no indication that he is evil (see a couple of posts above). Suffering on earth does not necessarily mean he is evil, I just explained that to you.

But that explanation doesn't hold water. There is no reason a good god would allow suffering on earth. A good god could have created an earth without suffering. Only an evil god would have created an earth with suffering.

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if there wasn't evil on earth, god wouldn't know hitler was evil, and he would be allowed in the afterlife. That would be reckless behaviour from god. Selection is needed. You can't reach perfection when you're allowing the likes of hitler in heaven.

[SoulMonster]

4 minutes ago, action said:

if there wasn't evil on earth, god wouldn't know hitler was evil, and he would be allowed in the afterlife. 

The cognitive failure this time is that you don't realize that if there was no evil on earth, Hitler wouldn't be evil.

Edited May 27, 2020 by SoulMonster

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and if you argue: but if there is no evil on earth, hitler wouldn't have killed 6 million jews, then you're going to allow hitler in heaven. 

I don't think god has any influence on how characters of people develop. If a new person is born (good or bad), god doesn't know. He needs to first look at the actions of that person to make an evaluation.

It comes with good and bad, but I think this is a comforting thought. It means, we are free in this world to act as we want. If god somehow made evil go away, it would mean we don't have freedom in our actions anymore. What an unsettling thought that would be. Would you want to live as a puppet of god? I certainly wouldn't.

[SoulMonster]

19 minutes ago, action said:

I don't think god has any influence on how characters of people develop. If a new person is born (good or bad), god doesn't know. He needs to first look at the actions of that person to make an evaluation.

Now you are describing anything but an omnipotent god.

19 minutes ago, action said:

It means, we are free in this world to act as we want. If god somehow made evil go away, it would mean we don't have freedom in our actions anymore.

We don't have freedom of action. We are created with lots of restrictions. For instance, no matter how hard I would want to fly I simply can't do that. It's a bitch. Because god (in reality, evolution) hasn't bestowed me with wings. That cheapskate. Similarly, there are many things I can do but choose not to because I am born with certain preferences and desires. For instance I could easily cram my ears with crisps. I simply don't want to. Because I am born with a distinct desire to not do it. Most people are likewise born with a desire to not hurt other people. So we come with pre-programmed drives and desires and preferences and instincts and morals etc. 

So this idea that god has created us entirely free to do whatever we want to do is flawed. We come with lots of limitations and preferences that effectively limit our degree of freedom.

Having got rid of the notion that a god has created us with total freedom to choose our actions with no inherent inclinations and limitations -- that we are "free in this world to act as we want" -- let's consider the alternative where god has re-wired these limitations and inclination in such ways that we never did anything bad. That we simply didn't want to do bad. Not that we couldn't we still had arms and spades and annoying friends, just that our morality was so strong that we would, ever, do it. That doing bad would make as little sense to us as cramming our ears with crisp. It just wouldn't strike us as a meaningful possibility. The thought wouldn't even occur to us. Hurting someone would be as foreign a concept as jamming salty snacks into our ears. Then why did god choose to create us with a strong antipathy towards cramming our ears with crisps but not towards hurting our fellow man? Why did he consider the former to be less okay then the latter and wired us in such a way that no person on earth has done the former (I suppose; or at least very few) while thousands upon thousands do the latter every single day? Does your god hate crisps in ears more than he hates sin? I think the answers is: Obviously. So you bow down to an evil deity that hates crisps in ears more than murder. That's astonishing.

[SoulMonster]

38 minutes ago, action said:

Would you want to live as a puppet of god? I certainly wouldn't.

I think I already commented on that when I pointed out I would hopefully have the courage rebel against a god that has created this earth.

You, on the other hand, is the one who is worshipping this evil god and, I assume, strive to do his bidding. So you seems to be that puppet. The irony is of course that he doesn't exist.

Edited May 27, 2020 by SoulMonster

[EvanG]

2 hours ago, action said:

You won't find hitler in the afterlife. 

But how do you know? Isn't part of the catholic faith that if you ask for forgiveness and confess your sins you will be forgiven and make it to heaven after all?

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2 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

The cognitive failure this time is that you don't realize that if there was no evil on earth, Hitler wouldn't be evil.

he wouldn't have free will either

if people have free will, there is evil.

god needed to make a choice: do people have free will or not?

it's the choice between no evil / no free will and free will / evil on earth.

Even a perfect and benevolent entity can't on one hand give people free will, and on the other hand ensure that there is no evil. Both exclude themselves.

What is the point of having people with no free will? Then, life just becomes a glorifief charace with mindless participants, which lacks any quality whatsoever. Free will on the other hand, is so much more interesting, and frankly something that a godlike entity would prefer. The flipside is, evil on earth.

[SoulMonster]

6 minutes ago, action said:

he wouldn't have free will either

if people have free will, there is evil.

god needed to make a choice: do people have free will or not?

it's the choice between no evil / no free will and free will / evil on earth.

Even a perfect and benevolent entity can't on one hand give people free will, and on the other hand ensure that there is no evil. Both exclude themselves.

What is the point of having people with no free will? Then, life just becomes a glorifief charace with mindless participants, which lacks any quality whatsoever. Free will on the other hand, is so much more interesting, and frankly something that a godlike entity would prefer. The flipside is, evil on earth.

Now you are just trying to write something you have read once.

First off, we don't have free will in the sense that our actions aren't restricted by instincts, preferences, desires, and morality. All of these things form the actions that we decide to do. As I pointed out previously, they prevent me from cramming my ears with crisps. Unfortunately, they don't prevent all people from doing evil things. So if your god exists, he has for mysterious reasons decided that humans should be created in such a way that they would want to do evil things now and then, but not cram their ears with crisps. What does that say about your god?

Secondly, by tuning our instincts, preferences, morality and desires a bit, he could have closed the desire to do evil things entirely (just boosted our morality a bit) while opened up for a bit of ear cramming. In sum we would still have the same amount of "free will", we would just be nicer people with our ears occasionally full of crisps.

Do you get it?

Edited May 27, 2020 by SoulMonster

[Len Cnut]

57 minutes ago, EvanG said:

But how do you know? Isn't part of the catholic faith that if you ask for forgiveness and confess your sins you will be forgiven and make it to heaven after all?

Also, you can't second guess God cuz he can change his mind and forgive whoever he wants.  In fact, its sort of a sin to say 'x will happen to x' in the afterlife because you are kind of taking Gods job on, its sort of related to blasphemy. 

 

1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

Now you are just trying to write something you have read once.

First off, we don't have free will in the sense that our actions aren't restricted by instincts, preferences, desires, and morality. All of these things form the actions that we decide to do. As I pointed out previously, they prevent me from cramming my ears with crisps. Unfortunately, they don't prevent all people from doing evil things. So if your god exists, he has for mysterious reasons decided that humans should be created in such a way that they would want to do evil things now and then, but not cram their ears with crisps. What does that say about your god?

Secondly, by tuning our instincts, preferences, morality and desires a bit, he could have closed the desire to do evil things entirely (just boosted our morality a bit) while opened up for a bit of ear cramming. In sum we would still have the same amount of "free will", we would just be nicer people with our ears occasionally full of crisps.

Do you get it?

You can't understand God Soulie, none of us can because we are restricted by reason.  God exists outside of reason.  Reason is a limitation of the mind that the omnipotent is not prey to. 

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1 hour ago, SoulMonster said:

We don't have freedom of action. We are created with lots of restrictions. For instance, no matter how hard I would want to fly I simply can't do that. It's a bitch. Because god (in reality, evolution) hasn't bestowed me with wings. That cheapskate. Similarly, there are many things I can do but choose not to because I am born with certain preferences and desires. For instance I could easily cram my ears with crisps. I simply don't want to. Because I am born with a distinct desire to not do it. Most people are likewise born with a desire to not hurt other people. So we come with pre-programmed drives and desires and preferences and instincts and morals etc.

if this was true, it would be incredible cruel and injust for us to jail murderers and pedophiles.

you are basically practising the positivist school in criminology. This argues, that crime is not the result of freedom of action, but rather of external factors that determine behaviour (age, sexe, environment etc). This has repercussions on the concept of guilt. In this sense, people aren't really "guilty" in an ethical sense when committing crimes. Of course, we can not remain indifferent to crimes, so another concept is used by the positivists: "risk notion". But this has dangerous consequences. If the basis for social reaction to crime isn't founded in the concept of guilt, but rather in the concept of "risk", then there is no reason why society shouldn't be allowed to act "proactively". Then, it becomes totally viable for society to jail people who "could" commit crimes.

the nazis were eager to put these views in practise.

1 hour ago, SoulMonster said:

I think I already commented on that when I pointed out I would hopefully have the courage rebel against a god that has created this earth.

You, on the other hand, is the one who is worshipping this evil god and, I assume, strive to do his bidding. So you seems to be that puppet. The irony is of course that he doesn't exist.

I am neither worshipping, nor claiming god is evil.

 

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1 hour ago, EvanG said:

But how do you know? Isn't part of the catholic faith that if you ask for forgiveness and confess your sins you will be forgiven and make it to heaven after all?

I don't know about catholic faith. I'm a christian.

Also, I don't know if Hitler is in heaven or not. I'm not the judge to that. But probably not. who knows?

[SoulMonster]

Just now, action said:

if this was true, it would be incredible cruel and injust for us to jail murderers and pedophiles.

Out of the context you should have realized I meant complete freedom of action. I mean, did you stop reading after the first sentence?

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2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Out of the context you should have realized I meant complete freedom of action. I mean, did you stop reading after the first sentence?

oh, sorry, my bad.

so you say people have a choice wether they commit crimes or not.

...isn't that my point all along?

people have a choice to be good or bad. They have free will. God chose to give us free will, it's more interesting, but the flipside is evil on earth.

So rewind, re-read and come up with a better response to my posts then.

Your arguments based around putting chips in your ears are totally besides the point

[Len Cnut]

You can answer the free will notion until you answer the larger looming question of 'why bother making us/the universe in the first place?', work that one out and then yous can see this discussion through properly. 

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2 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

I assume, strive to do his bidding.

I have no clue what his biding is.

I hope he's good though, and I strive to do good, just in case he turns out that way. I have a choice to do good or bad, and I chose the first option. Guess I will be massively screwed if he turns out bad!

[SoulMonster]

Just now, action said:

oh, sorry, my bad.

so you say people have a choice wether they commit crimes or not.

...isn't that my point all along?

people have a choice to be good or bad. They have free will. God chose to give us free will, it's more interesting, but the flipside is evil on earth.

A good god would have created us without a desire to do evil, just like we don't have a desire to cram our ears with crisps.

You are basically saying that your god decided to create us with a propensity for evil because he finds that more interesting. Which describes a horrendous god. An evil god.