Cultural/Political/Social Trends & Divergence Thread

[Ace Nova]

Excellent debate, worth a watch if you have a couple of hours....

 

[soon]

 

[wasted]

I read Peterson’s book and it makes sense in someways but found many difficulties. 

In general, I see some irony in taking up a position of authority in a dominance hierarchy when your position relies on selling books to incels. You praying on the weak. 

Theoretically most of his explanations are based on semantics of the bible. The stories are used to explain a moral reality. I’m not religious at all but I think it’s a protestant, anglo saxon take on life. The stories seem to be presented as proof. Whereas I see the stories as a way to control through fear. 

I guess an extension of that is that it seems all set up take you one step from becoming a christian. It’s also has a gateway feel, you believe this stuff you are so close to Alt right. You are an in-group preference and N word away. Most of it is fun in anecdotal way but once you write it down as rules it becomes fascist and kind of like a way to divide people. 

What I really dislike is that he pushes personal responsibility over state oppression. Which obviously isn’t right, it’s lying to these kids about the reasons their world is the way it is. We’ve been sold down the river for years and this is what they wanted. I’m all for waking up but at least wake up in the right context. 

That kind leads into his intrepretation of postmodernism as bad, where nothing has meaning so nothing matters and everyone is nihilistic. But actually think about how freeing the world being a construct is. You don’t have to feel the pain, guilt or shame that is being handed down to you. Just because life is just a videogame doesn’t mean you have to go out and start killing people, it just frees you up to make the world better, to be more understanding of others. The patriarchy may have been natural but that doesn’t mean it’s real or the solition to everything for ever. 

The hypocrasy of claiming this objective reality of the state is a great thing, but then you are forced to support mindless wars which are way worse than some incel beating off in his moms basement. This is not a problem, just accept you invented and judge kids on some fascist idea of winning and losing and are depressing your kids then profiting off that through prescription drugs. Peterson is way to conveinently ignore the actual truth and get you back on the track to religion and corporate greed. 

That was just my reaction to his book. Mostly it’s common sense but when written down and tries to prove something it just falls apart. What are the chances Peterson is the answer for everyone? 

Edited June 19, 2018 by wasted

[dontdamnmeuyi2015]

Today on the news there was a man from Texas, sorry I didn't get his name nor am I sure if he's a politician or just a concerned citizen.

He said how terrible it is that the US has to separate the illegal parents from their kids when entering the US illegally. It is a shame, but he also said how the US, Mexico and Central America have to work together to make their countries better and safer for these people to live. Maybe if the people felt safer and had jobs they wouldn't be trying to enter the US illegal. I agreed with him.

It's just a shame how some people fear for their lives in their own countries. It has to start with their leaders trying to help their people live a better life and maybe they wouldn't be forced to enter the US illegally.

I know some of these people are criminals, but not all of them are. Something has to be done to help the poor live a better life.

I can't stand how some leaders just allow shit to happen.

I have a friend who visits her family in Mexico a few times a year. Her parents live in a small Mexican town. She told me that the cartel comes and takes over many smaller towns in Mexico and tells the people either you work for them or you leave. Don't tell me that the Mexican President doesn't know this shit is going on? Why doesn't he try to stop it? It makes me sick and then these poor people try to enter the US and are taken away from their kids. It reminds me of Nazi Germany in the 30's and 40's and what the US did to it's Japanese citizens during WWII.

Something has to be done and it can't be just the US who is doing it. Those countries have to step up.

[wasted]

4 hours ago, dontdamnmeuyi2015 said:

Today on the news there was a man from Texas, sorry I didn't get his name nor am I sure if he's a politician or just a concerned citizen.

He said how terrible it is that the US has to separate the illegal parents from their kids when entering the US illegally. It is a shame, but he also said how the US, Mexico and Central America have to work together to make their countries better and safer for these people to live. Maybe if the people felt safer and had jobs they wouldn't be trying to enter the US illegal. I agreed with him.

It's just a shame how some people fear for their lives in their own countries. It has to start with their leaders trying to help their people live a better life and maybe they wouldn't be forced to enter the US illegally.

I know some of these people are criminals, but not all of them are. Something has to be done to help the poor live a better life.

I can't stand how some leaders just allow shit to happen.

I have a friend who visits her family in Mexico a few times a year. Her parents live in a small Mexican town. She told me that the cartel comes and takes over many smaller towns in Mexico and tells the people either you work for them or you leave. Don't tell me that the Mexican President doesn't know this shit is going on? Why doesn't he try to stop it? It makes me sick and then these poor people try to enter the US and are taken away from their kids. It reminds me of Nazi Germany in the 30's and 40's and what the US did to it's Japanese citizens during WWII.

Something has to be done and it can't be just the US who is doing it. Those countries have to step up.

The impression I get from movies is that governments often let one cartel take over because it’s easier to manage with less chaos and killing than gang wars. But then that cartel gets to do what it wants. 

I guess governments are more concerned with re-election than fixing everything. If by giving the cartel what they want they get more votes then...

The media won’t touch this, the money is in supporting a political party not making the country a utopia. 

But if an issue gets enough exposure then maybe they will have to do something. But most times they pretend to fix it or do some kind of deal. 

The deal would be something like letting the cartel run drugs into the immigrant areas of the US. And maybe the US gov getting a cut of that money to use for “housing development and schools” in those areas. So in the end the welfare goes back to the cartels and gov anyway. 

So let them in, then exploit them is probably what happens. 

 

Edited June 19, 2018 by wasted

[soon]

 

[soon]

I've long been confused by two prominent talking points in this era:

1) Millennials in NA are largely liberal

2) The Left in NA is getting more extreme

This video speaks to point number one. It agrees entirely with my real life experience that millennials are not largely liberal. Id add that most are Apolitical if not conservative. Some just dont care who you wanna have sex with or what you call yourself, but if one wants to call that liberal I'd direct them to US Libertarianism for cross reference. Like, the entire Alt-right are Millennials for example.

As for my second point. Until recently extreme leftist have fire bombed govt buildings, banks or businesses. The left has expropriated banks and brinks trucks. The left have busted political prisoners out of jail. This is especially true of students who come from wealth and privilege. Today those students just stand near poor Republican voters yelling, milling about, smoking cigarettes and sometimes debasing themselves by tossing piss on someone. The left is not becoming more extreme. Far from it, too many young leftists are lazy and self indulgent. And the olds failed to the extent that Trump is in Office. 

Heres an example of an extreme leftist action:

Now compare this from just 8 years ago to the campus left of today who moan and whine until a Millennial Republican punches them in the face, much to the rich-kids surprise.

Where on Earth do these talking points about Millennials come from?

Edited June 25, 2018 by soon

[wasted]

On 14/05/2018 at 1:00 PM, Kasanova King said:

Just starting to discover some of Jordan Peterson's views/interviews, etc.  I don't know whether I agree with everything he says but I like the way he thinks.  It's certainly a breath of fresh air and demonstrates an open mindedness and free thinking that I haven't seen in a long time.   I'll probably get his book in order to get a better grasp of his thought process...and then go from there. 

I think he’s like a classic British liberal? It’s something I feel like I’m

familiar with without ever reading the rules. Irish protestant? WASP. 

Calls to censor him seem extreme. But I do think the world is more complicated than natural dominance hierarchies now. What he’s saying might work for people in a similar culture. If you don’t relate immeadiately it feels like joining a cult.

So I get it with all the progressives getting shirty because they worked for years for rights, then this Irish white guy turns up with a Lobster and says the patriarchy is natural. I’d say it was based on restricted model of nature. 

So there’s an issue about it being taken as a manifesto. It might help incels or stoner porn addicts but if you slightly off brand it’s like a fascist cult. 

[wasted]

6 hours ago, soon said:

I've long been confused by two prominent talking points in this era:

1) Millennials in NA are largely liberal

2) The Left in NA is getting more extreme

This video speaks to point number one. It agrees entirely with my real life experience that millennials are not largely liberal. Id add that most are Apolitical if not conservative. Some just dont care who you wanna have sex with or what you call yourself, but if one wants to call that liberal I'd direct them to US Libertarianism for cross reference. Like, the entire Alt-right are Millennials for example.

As for my second point. Until recently extreme leftist have fire bombed govt buildings, banks or businesses. The left has expropriated banks and brinks trucks. The left have busted political prisoners out of jail. This is especially true of students who come from wealth and privilege. Today those students just stand near poor Republican voters yelling, milling about, smoking cigarettes and sometimes debasing themselves by tossing piss on someone. The left is not becoming more extreme. Far from it, too many young leftists are lazy and self indulgent. And the olds failed to the extent that Trump is in Office. 

Heres an example of an extreme leftist action:

Now compare this from just 8 years ago to the campus left of today who moan and whine until a Millennial Republican punches them in the face, much to the rich-kids surprise.

Where on Earth do these talking points about Millennials come from?

The far left agenda comes from college campuses? The professors are coaching the SJW. I would say I was an SJW in the 90s. Still kind of am but liberal seems right wing compared to antifa style stuff. It seems like the left are fighting for ideas more than people. It’s ideology. Whereas in the 90s being liberal was just being cool with lesbians or whatever, not punching nazis in the face. You were just a person, not part of a team fighting the other team. 

I guess there’s working class millenials working at conveience stores and they are more like gen xers? 

[Ace Nova]

7 hours ago, soon said:

I've long been confused by two prominent talking points in this era:

1) Millennials in NA are largely liberal

2) The Left in NA is getting more extreme

This video speaks to point number one. It agrees entirely with my real life experience that millennials are not largely liberal. Id add that most are Apolitical if not conservative. Some just dont care who you wanna have sex with or what you call yourself, but if one wants to call that liberal I'd direct them to US Libertarianism for cross reference. Like, the entire Alt-right are Millennials for example.

As for my second point. Until recently extreme leftist have fire bombed govt buildings, banks or businesses. The left has expropriated banks and brinks trucks. The left have busted political prisoners out of jail. This is especially true of students who come from wealth and privilege. Today those students just stand near poor Republican voters yelling, milling about, smoking cigarettes and sometimes debasing themselves by tossing piss on someone. The left is not becoming more extreme. Far from it, too many young leftists are lazy and self indulgent. And the olds failed to the extent that Trump is in Office. 

Heres an example of an extreme leftist action:

Now compare this from just 8 years ago to the campus left of today who moan and whine until a Millennial Republican punches them in the face, much to the rich-kids surprise.

Where on Earth do these talking points about Millennials come from?

Extreme leftist action?  You're saying the extreme left are basically terrorists?

 

[wasted]

the Alt Right remind me of Project Mayhem. 

[soon]

8 hours ago, wasted said:

The far left agenda comes from college campuses? The professors are coaching the SJW. I would say I was an SJW in the 90s. Still kind of am but liberal seems right wing compared to antifa style stuff. It seems like the left are fighting for ideas more than people. It’s ideology. Whereas in the 90s being liberal was just being cool with lesbians or whatever, not punching nazis in the face. You were just a person, not part of a team fighting the other team. 

I guess there’s working class millenials working at conveience stores and they are more like gen xers? 

Interesting analysis. Im still curious why this tame and ineffective manifestation of campus leftism is described as getting more extreme, though. Because they arent really doing much at all.

Definitely a lot of working class Millennials have a more traditional political framework - that is to say an analysis rooted in class and economy in the way that every prior generation has. But the Alt right does a decent job of recruiting from poor communities, too. Another area the campus left fails at for not even trying. 

 

[wasted]

33 minutes ago, soon said:

Interesting analysis. Im still curious why this tame and ineffective manifestation of campus leftism is described as getting more extreme, though. Because they arent really doing much at all.

Definitely a lot of working class Millennials have a more traditional political framework - that is to say an analysis rooted in class and economy in the way that every prior generation has. But the Alt right does a decent job of recruiting from poor communities, too. Another area the campus left fails at for not even trying. 

 

Possibly because campus leftism has an easy way into the mainstream. As in 60s leftists are already in positions of power so they are just paving the way. There’s a legit path for educated SJW in to education or other jobs. 

Well that Charlottesville thing was really small really. It’s like a show that is put on for the media. It was Antifa v Alt right? It’s all staged to sway political opinion. It’s all fake. 

Maybe the impression the Left is more extreme is that Antifa get physical. And the rhetoric seems more extreme. You support Trump? He’s Hilter! There was gay rights, but now it’s trans rights. To normal people it seems to be getting more extreme. To people in the Rust belt with no jobs these are not big issues. In a way people voted Trump partly because the rhetoric on the left got so crazy to them. Not that they are racist, it’s just outside the sphere of their concerns. So I guess they thought this guy is a corrupt idiot but he’s transparent, he’s our idiot. 

So I think it’s the internet /media just hyping everything up. That’s more why it’s more extreme. The rhetoric is extreme. Everyone is outraged and Roseanne gets ruined over a tweet, it all seems very authoratarian. 

Ultimately it’s about fear. If both sides are terrified of the other winning there’s an election and the big problems can be ignored. I think if one side gave up, the other side would quickly get bored doing what they wanted and them realise we are wasting trillions on wars. 

 

Edited June 26, 2018 by wasted

[soon]

3 minutes ago, wasted said:

Possibly because campus leftism has an easy way into the mainstream. As in 60s leftists are already in positions of power so they are just paving the way. There’s a legit path for educated SJW in to education or other jobs. 

Well that Charlottesville thing was really small really. It’s like a show that is put on for the media. It was Antifa v Alt right? It’s all staged to sway political opinion. It’s all fake. 

Maybe the impression the Left is more extreme is that Antifa get physical. And the rhetoric seems more extreme. You support Trump? He’s Hilter! There was gay rights, but now it’s trans rights. To normal people it seems to be getting more extreme. To people in the Rust belt with no jobs these are not big issues. In a way people voted Trump partly because the rhetoric on the left got so crazy to them. Not that they are racist, it’s just outside the sphere of their concerns. So I guess they thought this guy is a corrupt idiot but he’s transparent, he’s our idiot. 

Charlottesville was as event titled "Unite the Right" it was organized by self avowed White Nationalists. Antifa, being decentralized and unofficial have no ability to do the same. Nor would they seek to. The Unite the Right rally was the far right versus clergy and anyone who opposes right wing nonsense. Clergy arent antifa. Nether was Heather or DeAndrea. The right is getting more extreme and physical and most people will for some reason say that the left is. Although there is zero evidence to support the claim. 

The election is weird in that I agree with your analysis in that people voted for Trump out of fear. But how on earth is Hillary Clinton falsely identified with leftism? Nothing makes sense.

[wasted]

18 minutes ago, soon said:

Charlottesville was as event titled "Unite the Right" it was organized by self avowed White Nationalists. Antifa, being decentralized and unofficial have no ability to do the same. Nor would they seek to. The Unite the Right rally was the far right versus clergy and anyone who opposes right wing nonsense. Clergy arent antifa. Nether was Heather or DeAndrea. The right is getting more extreme and physical and most people will for some reason say that the left is. Although there is zero evidence to support the claim. 

The election is weird in that I agree with your analysis in that people voted for Trump out of fear. But how on earth is Hillary Clinton falsely identified with leftism? Nothing makes sense.

Well that’s not why she lost. She just didn’t lie to the Rust Belt. She just said isn’t Trump rude? Trump was like I’m a winner, I’ll win for you. That’s it. She did nothing to win. 

All this other stuff is just distracting from that. That’s why Trump keeps running his mouth on this stuff. Huge mistakes like kids in cages is not why Hillary lost. So it won’t make any difference. 

The image of Antifa I have is a guy with a mask on and stick, fighting with Alt right. But the point was more the scale or numbers involved. How that was a big story. It’s not about the truth. It’s what’s the perception. And the Left went after that march and to be honest if you just ignored the Alt right they’d go  away. Maybe like nailing Roseanne. Trump supporters will be more convinced not less. It’s not converting anyone. It’s really dividing people more, and Roseanne is basically a liberal! Ivanka and Jared are Wall Strett democrats. Trump was a democrat but they wouldn’t let him run so he devised a way to get elected. It’s just a business move. So ultimately I don’t know what we are doing. Like I said fear, tribalism. 

But I think the rhetoric is more extreme. Even things like Roseanne getting sacked, Metoo etc. it just seems more extreme. It doesn’t seem like 90s liberalism. 

Edited June 26, 2018 by wasted

[soon]

3 minutes ago, wasted said:

Well that’s not why she lost. She just didn’t lie to the Rust Belt. She just said isn’t Trump rude? Trump was like I’m a winner, I’ll win for you. That’s it. She did nothing to win. 

All this other stuff is just distracting from that. That’s why Trump keeps running his mouth on this stuff. Huge mistakes like kids in cages is not why Hillary lost. So it won’t make any difference. 

The image of Antifa I have is a guy with a mask on and stick, fighting with Alt right. But the point was more the scale or numbers involved. How that was a big story. It’s not about the truth. It’s what’s the perception. 

But I think the rhetoric is more extreme. Even things like Roseanne getting sacked, Metoo etc. it just seems more extreme. It doesn’t seem like 90s liberalism. 

Sure, I guess we've veered off onto a few separate conversations. Im not comparing current leftism to passed liberalism. Of course they are incompatible.

I would say that the current climate regarding something like metoo is rooted in liberal feminism. And, though I could be wrong, it seems to me that the only difference is that the liberals feminists now have social media. Other then that I think they are very comparable to liberal feminists of the 90's.

[wasted]

5 minutes ago, soon said:

Sure, I guess we've veered off onto a few separate conversations. Im not comparing current leftism to passed liberalism. Of course they are incompatible.

I would say that the current climate regarding something like metoo is rooted in liberal feminism. And, though I could be wrong, it seems to me that the only difference is that the liberals feminists now have social media. Other then that I think they are very comparable to liberal feminists of the 90's.

I think there’s a line. Like there’s liberal feminists that are stay at home moms. But now that is frowned upon. Even metoo is more about acting on toxic masculinity. Ruining guys like Louie. Real liberals are much more forgiving. Even the nature of the attack on Weinstein. Liberals see both sides. The Left are out to destroy him, he’s forced into the idea they hate. The idea comes first and that’s all that matters. A liberal sees Weinstein as a sex addict, drug addict. In the 90s liberals just laughed at him. Now the left has pushed him to be a statue of toxic masculinity. That’s a shift to the left. 

Then abortion. I see liberals as pro choice. Whereas the left almost celebrates abortion. Celebrates single moms, or women without children. To come into something believing the patriarchy is out to get you, and purposely not having kids. That’s different from

liberals smoking a blunt and saying ah don’t worry so much.

[soon]

15 minutes ago, wasted said:

I think there’s a line. Like there’s liberal feminists that are stay at home moms. But now that is frowned upon. Even metoo is more about acting on toxic masculinity. Ruining guys like Louie. Real liberals are much more forgiving. Even the nature of the attack on Weinstein. Liberals see both sides. The Left are out to destroy him, he’s forced into the idea they hate. The idea comes first and that’s all that matters. A liberal sees Weinstein as a sex addict, drug addict. In the 90s liberals just laughed at him. Now the left has pushed him to be a statue of toxic masculinity. That’s a shift to the left. 

Then abortion. I see liberals as pro choice. Whereas the left almost celebrates abortion. Celebrates single moms, or women without children. To come into something believing the patriarchy is out to get you, and purposely not having kids. That’s different from

liberals smoking a blunt and saying ah don’t worry so much.

Well, this takes us back to the video I posted to frame the discussion. Hopefully you had a chance to watch it. It highlights that Millennials are actually embracing traditional gender roles like female homemakers. Millennials are also having far less premarital sex and are far more open about being in the "safe and few" camp on abortion ideology. Previous generations of both liberal and leftists feminists have angrily called safe and few a dog whistle against abortion. Its kinda like what you said about only perception matters. My point is that the notion of a liberal millennial majority and an escalating left are only perception. 

[wasted]

2 minutes ago, soon said:

Well, this takes us back to the video I posted to frame the discussion. Hopefully you had a chance to watch it. It highlights that Millennials are actually embracing traditional gender roles like female homemakers. Millennials are also having far less premarital sex and are far more open about being in the "safe and few" camp on abortion ideology. Previous generations of both liberal and leftists feminists have angrily called safe and few a dog whistle against abortion. Its kinda like what you said about only perception matters. My point is that the notion of a liberal millennial majority and an escalating left are only perception. 

That’s probably true, I don’t associate millenials with the left. They are just kids. I associate hipsters in Brooklyn as liberal or lefty hipsters. 

That’s how I differentiate between liberal and left on abortion. If you see being careful as being anti-abortion then I’d do that laugh out loud emoji if I knew how. Abortion isn’t the goal. The left really stepped it up from pro choice to pushing for really late abortions. A bit like once there were gay rights they pushed for more. Which is only right but them they went to give kids hormones before they really knew if they are trans. Too far! It’s not an openess or tolerance to things, itsa forcing things and then the guy who ownsca hardware shop complains and they call him transphobic. It’s moving to an authoratarian left. 

I can’t watch youtube videos in china but I get the idea. 

[soon]

14 hours ago, wasted said:

That’s probably true, I don’t associate millenials with the left. They are just kids. I associate hipsters in Brooklyn as liberal or lefty hipsters. 

That’s how I differentiate between liberal and left on abortion. If you see being careful as being anti-abortion then I’d do that laugh out loud emoji if I knew how. Abortion isn’t the goal. The left really stepped it up from pro choice to pushing for really late abortions. A bit like once there were gay rights they pushed for more. Which is only right but them they went to give kids hormones before they really knew if they are trans. Too far! It’s not an openess or tolerance to things, itsa forcing things and then the guy who ownsca hardware shop complains and they call him transphobic. It’s moving to an authoratarian left. 

I can’t watch youtube videos in china but I get the idea. 

Oh right, no YT in China. My bad. ("whoa, how does he learn about the world?" I ask myself, lol)

See I find it interesting that the perception of hipsters is that they are liberal or lefties. They are in my experience often apolitical. Many lean right. Most if not all of the Alt right fashion comes from hipster reinterpretations of previous straight edge style and reagan era 80s fashions. The layers of irony that alt right memes use is a direct product of hipster culture. Hipsters are often the type that I described as not caring about issues that conservatives care about, but I dont think the in and of itself means that by default they hold an opposing ideology. One thing hipsters do is gentrify poor neighbourhoods. They start businesses or move near gentrifying businesses because its cheap and then price out the long standing members of that community. They are class traitors those Brooklyn hipsters. And one cant avoid the race implications of gentrifying Brooklyn.

I think we agree that campus leftists are regressive. But they dont do anything extreme. They barely do anything at all.

14 hours ago, wasted said:

A liberal sees Weinstein as a sex addict, drug addict. In the 90s liberals just laughed at him. Now the left has pushed him to be a statue of toxic masculinity. That’s a shift to the left. 

I realized I missed responding to your previous point about liberal feminism shifting left. I think that may be true. But to my point: that does not mean that the left is escalating. If liberals are now in the fold it no doubt contributes to my statement that the left is the tamest its been in ages. Tamest and least grounded in the hard work day to day. Like using social media to get justice for a serial rapist isnt exactly like when the SLA kidnapped an innocent girl named Patty Hearst. Its certainly not as committed in time, resources and energy as the Panthers breakfast programs. I wish we were all doing breakfast programs where needed to this day.

(to be clear: Taking down rapists is great. Kidnapping is not. My point is that the perception of extremes is incorrect imo)

Edited June 27, 2018 by soon

[wasted]

11 hours ago, soon said:

Oh right, no YT in China. My bad. ("whoa, how does he learn about the world?" I ask myself, lol)

See I find it interesting that the perception of hipsters is that they are liberal or lefties. They are in my experience often apolitical. Many lean right. Most if not all of the Alt right fashion comes from hipster reinterpretations of previous straight edge style and reagan era 80s fashions. The layers of irony that alt right memes use is a direct product of hipster culture. Hipsters are often the type that I described as not caring about issues that conservatives care about, but I dont think the in and of itself means that by default they hold an opposing ideology. One thing hipsters do is gentrify poor neighbourhoods. They start businesses or move near gentrifying businesses because its cheap and then price out the long standing members of that community. They are class traitors those Brooklyn hipsters. And one cant avoid the race implications of gentrifying Brooklyn.

I think we agree that campus leftists are regressive. But they dont do anything extreme. They barely do anything at all.

I realized I missed responding to your previous point about liberal feminism shifting left. I think that may be true. But to my point: that does not mean that the left is escalating. If liberals are now in the fold it no doubt contributes to my statement that the left is the tamest its been in ages. Tamest and least grounded in the hard work day to day. Like using social media to get justice for a cereal rapist isnt exactly like when the SLA kidnapped an innocent girl named Patty Hearst. Its certainly not as committed in time, resources and energy as the Panthers breakfast programs. I wish we were all doing breakfast programs where needed to this day.

(to be clear: Taking down rapists is great. Kidnapping is not. My point is that the perception of extremes is incorrect imo)

I think this is what I was saying about perceptions and social media, these issues or points can be illustrated or conveyed easily on line. It’s all very ideological, if that’s a style. So maybe both sides are shining light on the other sides most extreme parts. Trump wasn’t Alt right and Hillary wasn’t hard left. 

Trump may have lied to the Alt right or anti war people but he betrayed them almost immediately.

That’s the crazy thing, for all the talk there’s very little difference between Trump and Obama. It tangible things that actually changed. The tax cuts maybe. Trump has really failed to avoid war in Syria and his immigration policies were blocked and unpopular. 

The main thing is regime change in Syria and Iran is back on. 

That’s probably true, a lot of hipsters come from conservative backgrounds so they end up left of that but still on the right actually. Like postmodern irony isn’t always liberal. There’s two ways to see it I guess. Some see all of it as meaningless nihilism by default and hence kind of conservative. As in nothing changes politically. But it could also be a way to see gender as a construct. Which is way left. 

In a way I see all hipsters as left because it’s all ironic even if you are posing as Alt right. By definition you are not committed to the right in a real sense. Whereas mixing sub cultures and styles isn’t very conservative. Hipsters by definition are not one thing or another. But that is imherently liberal left, you are breaking up the status quo. 

If you have a consistent point of view you aren’t a hipster. Alt right using irony or memes doesn’t make them hipsters. A hipster would wear a Maga hat but listen to Public Enemy. Hipsters are kind of conservative liberals, they won’t affect political change but they can’t hang out in a traditional settings authentically. Not having consistent traditional values means they can’t really be republicans or Alt right. 

I guess there’s different definitions of hipster. I think there’s a lot of millenials wearing skinny jeans who look like hipsters and they could have various political leanings if any. But they aren’t really hipsters. 

If you are messing around with culture, mixing styles and ideas in a creative capacity then you are probably more open minded on issues, so I feel like you lean left. The right relies on fixed ideas of family and religion. A hipster is the ultimate flip flopper, poser really. 

Edited June 26, 2018 by wasted

[soon]

Not towards any conversations Ive been engaged in during this thread. Just generally relevant to thread.

[wasted]

The Collapse is coming

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-07-01/chris-hedges-coming-collapse

[soon]

36 minutes ago, wasted said:

The Collapse is coming

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-07-01/chris-hedges-coming-collapse

Fantastic article! Hedges has a magnificent brain. 

Below from the Article. I have never read such a brief 3 paragraph entry that sums up the Democratic Party and the Trump Regime so succinctly:

"The Democratic Party, which helped build our system of inverted totalitarianism, is once again held up by many on the left as the savior. Yet the party steadfastly refuses to address the social inequality that led to the election of Trump and the insurgency by Bernie Sanders. It is deaf, dumb and blind to the very real economic suffering that plagues over half the country. It will not fight to pay workers a living wage. It will not defy the pharmaceutical and insurance industries to provide Medicare for all. It will not curb the voracious appetite of the military that is disemboweling the country and promoting the prosecution of futile and costly foreign wars. It will not restore our lost civil liberties, including the right to privacy, freedom from government surveillance, and due process. It will not get corporate and dark money out of politics. It will not demilitarize our police and reform a prison system that has 25 percent of the world’s prisoners although the United States has only 5 percent of the world’s population. It plays to the margins, especially in election seasons, refusing to address substantive political and social problems and instead focusing on narrow cultural issues like gay rights, abortion and gun control in our peculiar species of anti-politics.

This is a doomed tactic, but one that is understandable. The leadership of the party, the Clintons, Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, Tom Perez, are creations of corporate America. In an open and democratic political process, one not dominated by party elites and corporate money, these people would not hold political power. They know this. They would rather implode the entire system than give up their positions of privilege. And that, I fear, is what will happen. The idea that the Democratic Party is in any way a bulwark against despotism defies the last three decades of its political activity. It is the guarantor of despotism.

Trump has tapped into the hatred that huge segments of the American public have for a political and economic system that has betrayed them. He may be inept, degenerate, dishonest and a narcissist, but he adeptly ridicules the system they despise. His cruel and demeaning taunts directed at government agencies, laws and the established elites resonate with people for whom these agencies, laws and elites have become hostile forces. And for many who see no shift in the political landscape to alleviate their suffering, Trump’s cruelty and invective are at least cathartic."

[wasted]

Seems to be the way it is, but not sure what anyone can do.