Would CD have made it "the best album ever" if released as a standard 10-track album?

[magisme]

The production on CD wouldn't be such an issue if the songs were better. See UYIs.

[wasted]

Some think theres a lot of filler on UYI. I think CD has about the same. Theres stuff like Riad, IRS, Scraped that really cater to the heavier side of rock. I dont think rock radio will be playing Perfect Crime much but its part of GNR from Youre Crazy or that 80s trash.

[classicrawker]

Except we are not talking about those other albums we are talking about Chinese Democracy and fans rarely complain about poor production on UYI like they do ChiDem.....

Even some of the ChiDem fans here are objective enough to admit that the production is a mess and is not what they like about the album......

To deny people didn't have a problem with production on UYI is delusional. I don't think you mean that, you mean it sold a ton anyway. But there was some criticism of UYI even from within the band/Niven about the Elton Rose songs from fans saying it's not as good as AFD, Axl has lost it etc.

I agree some people don't like the production of CD. I agree from track to track it changes and that is indulgent/messy. For the most part it holds together and the scope of material and treatment per track is awesome. You can see where the problem comes from on UYI, there's Axl's songs which he might wanted more bombastic and pomp and then there's Izzy's and Slash's they wanted more rawer. They had to leave the band to do what they wanted.

My solution would have been to just do each guys songs like they wanted and throw them on an album, with only a producer suggesting they do something to pull the record together. I think if Slither and Fall to Pieces and Time Gone By and Shuffle it All with TIL and Catcher with the same productions fans might say TIL is OTT but hey Slither and Time Gone By are awesome. That's how some viewed UYI. Like eeeww what is Nov Rain? but hey look at Perfect Crime, Double Talkin Jive.

No actually people bitch about the production of UYI much much less than they do about ChiDem....Most of the complaints I read on this forum about UYI are related to the fact that there is too much filler material and the band would have been better off putting out one album of the best songs and not much about the production value.....in fact I have read posters here who like ChiDem complain about the production and I happen to disagree with your assessment of ChiDem, as do others on this forum, as I think it mediocre at best.

Personally I think the original leaks of ChiDem are better than the released album and would love to hear the raw versions of UYI before Axl got his hands on them but the production is nowhere near as bad as ChiDem and trying to claim that is part of that albums brilliance is nothing but a defensive mechanism by its fans..............

Well, I happen to disagree with your assessment of my assessment. I don't completely disagree with your assessment, especially as a GNR, it's pushing it. but I think that is partly what Axl always does, he's always causing a stir. Here we are discussing CD. If it was a remake of UYI we'd just say it's fine, nothing really to talk about. Cd gets a reaction. People are indifferent enough about it to make a point of it. I'm totally indifferent to this record!!!

It's not defensive because I do like that about it, I see why others don't, but there other records like it with the scope and percussive/synth focus.

I'm not only talking about the forum, I talking about reviews at the time. I think it's true there's less criticism of UYI production on this forum. I think some think UYI is a bit flat. I don't think the production on CD is all that bad in comparison to other 90s albums with similar production like Angel Dust/Nevermind/Achtung Baby. But it has another dimension of Axl's OTT ness.

And you know why there would not be such a big difference in opinion if GnR had made another UYI instead of ChiDem?............No big mystery mate it is because the UYI albums are light years better then ChiDem and even the majority of posters on this forum, who don't like ChiDem, like UYI..............

And your comment about the reviews got me thinking as I read as many as I could find over the years and don't remember complaints about the production on UYI....So just for fun I googled UYI reviews and guess what I found? In nearly every review the only real complaint I found was related to the albums having too many filler songs but no real complaints about the production...here are the first several I read in the order they came up on google so there was no cherry picking on my part.........

http://www.sputnikmusic.com/review/2350/Guns-N-Roses-Use-Your-Illusion-II/

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/albumreviews/use-your-illusion-i-19911017

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/reviews/compact_discs/guns_n_roses/use_your_illusion_i/index.html?no_takeover

http://www.theaceblackblog.com/2011/09/cd-review-use-your-illusion-ii-by-guns.html

http://www.metal-observer.com/articles.php?lid=1&id=1436

too be fair I did find a few that mentioned the production but the majority focused on the albums having filler songs as the main complaint

this one mentioned the overblown production in passing

http://www.allmusic.com/album/use-your-illusion-ii-mw0000035625

As does this one but again the biggest complaint is they have too much filler material

http://www.examiner.com/article/review-use-your-illusion-ii-by-guns-n-roses

Out of the first seven reviews I pulled up 6 of them thought the biggest flaw was too many filler songs

So again I have to call bullshit to your claim that people also complained about the production of UYI as they do ChiDem as I can find little to no evidence on this forum or in the music reviews...........

Well the filler tracks are a criticism of the production. It was always too many songs on the bloated UYI set and too many epics. Axl kind of reigned things in on CD.

But I did read NME, Melody Maker, Metal Hammer, Kerrang who all ripped into GNR. I know most mags balance it out but they seemed to hate Axl. But they often tossed words like bloated production out just in whole scheme of this big over the top rock story. Sensationalism. Also I read tabloids, newspapers who really didnt know. I think thats GNR real level, like Oasis they are beyond clasdic rock critics. They sold tons of records despite the critics running them down.

I mean I remember one live review of the UYI tour which said they just werent bad enough live, not punk enough. I think coming out of a punk rock phase UYI was seen as pompous rock by much of more punk or metal press. But actually Bill Price gave UYI a much harder edge than AFD. Its like Queen meets SexPistols.

Even Slash and Niven prefered the demos of UYI and Slash was saying Axl added all these bits like quotes or deep vocals etc. Slash said he told Axl the less layers you add the bigger it sounds.

So I really do think there were sections of the uk media that definitely saw UYI as bloated and overproduced. because in the context of punk and grunge it was at the time. But in terms of now it seems pretty hard edged.

I also remember that UYI hate coming to an end. It was around the time VR came out, suddenly all the ballads were cool again and I read that UYI was widely accepted to be the bands strongest material. Siddenly it was when the band showed they could write great songs not only about drinking and drugs.

I think its pretty well established that UYI were bloated with OTT production but Im not sure they were, its just what was being spread around. Its like people wanted or expected another AFD and UYI just wasnt like that. The rockers were filler and the ballads were too long. like in that Niven interview recently on youtube a whole panel sat their and Nov Rain was too long.

I sort of remember people laughing about the strings as well. I just think GNR went with Metallica, Megadeth, Maiden for a bit and Nov Rain just took them away from those metallers, this is in the UK.

LOL the number of filler songs on an album has nothing to do with the production of the songs mate ....you and I were talking about how Axl put the songs together not how many songs were on the album.....and I think I have proven that was not the biggest issue fans and journalists had with UYI as it was the number of filler songs....while ChiDem is not being praised for the production of the songs as you and Dude are trying to spin..............but nice try..............

[Bono]

To touch on the production issues between UYI and CD...... production was never an issue with the Illusion albums when they came out. the songs kicked ass, they sounded great. Only after years of analysis and to be honest since CD was released has the production on the Illusion albums become an issue or complaint of fans. Mostly by fans who are trying to justify the shitty production on CD. The production on CD was a major complaint from just about everyone from the second it was released. The revisionist history when it comes to how people feel about the Illusion production in an attempt to prop up CD is hilarious.

[Fin]

...... production was never an issue with the Illusion albums when they came out.

Only after years of analysis and to be honest since CD was released has the production on the Illusion albums become an issue or complaint of fans.

This is not true.

[wasted]

I think UYI was described as bloated straight away. I dont think it is really and it was never much of complaint from fans although Slash didnt seem to like production, too many bells and whistles.

The amount of times people say they liked the demos maybe they should put out the demos wirh album. Other bands do it.

Edited January 12, 2014 by wasted

[DieselDaisy]

The two are overproduced in different ways. Use Your Illusion was originally recorded and initially mixed, raw, but Axl added a load of bells and whistles on top of those tracks, movie quotes etc., which rendered it over-produced - but it is still a regular set up (the same two guitarists). Chinese Democracy is overproduced because there is not really a coherent 'basic track' on any of the songs. Instead, there are too many musicians as the album has been stitched together from disparate line-ups of Newgnr, Bumblefoot and Buckethead together on the same track, Fortus and Tobias. You end up with five guitarists, two drummers - probably bits from a 1999 version of the song, a 2001 version, a 2006. It is pro-tools addiction. Axl also goes, one better than Illusion and effectively gets Pitman to add lots of 'I am so arty and edgy' beeps and farts and introductions onto those songs to try and establish Axl's 'NIN' credentials.

[wasted]

I just see it as having 90s production. With Faith No More being pretty heavy influence.

I dont think each track is over produced but theres basically 14 different production values on it.

Its like Axl wanted to make the most over produced record ever.

[Sixes]

I always thought the UYI records sounded too muffled. As is evidenced most prominently in Breakdown

[classicrawker]

I think UYI was described as bloated straight away. I dont think it is really and it was never much of complaint from fans although Slash didnt seem to like production, too many bells and whistles.

The amount of times people say they liked the demos maybe they should put out the demos wirh album. Other bands do it.

described by whom exactly? you keep saying that but offer no proof.....you claim the reviewers said this yet I could not find all these reviews youmention

where is your citation?

Edited January 12, 2014 by classicrawker

[Sixes]

the only demo i prefer is the yesterdays demo

[DieselDaisy]

It might have been the mastering, that.

I do not like the fact that Stradlin has been mixed low.

[classicrawker]

I always thought the UYI records sounded too muffled. As is evidenced most prominently in Breakdown

we have never heard the raw masters before Axl got his hands on them that Slash claims kicked ass.......I would love to hear those and I bet Axl is sitting on them.....

[wasted]

I think UYI was described as bloated straight away. I dont think it is really and it was never much of complaint from fans although Slash didnt seem to like production, too many bells and whistles.

The amount of times people say they liked the demos maybe they should put out the demos wirh album. Other bands do it.

described by whom exactly? you keep saying that but offer no proof.....you claim the reviewers said this yet I could not find all these reviews youmention

where is your citation?

do you really believe UYI was never called bloated and over produced?

Slash said UYI were over produced and on the next record he wanted to get back to more AFD.

Ill have a look, but if it means that much to you Ill believe you. If Im wrong im wrong.

So youre saying it wasnt really seen as over produced?

http://www.metalsucks.net/2011/09/16/celebrate-the-20th-anniversary-of-gnrs-use-your-illusion-by-making-your-own-track-list/

http://www.theaceblackblog.com/2011/08/cd-review-use-your-illusion-i-by-guns-n.html?m=1

http://m.tgdaily.com/games-and-entertainment-features/58136-gnrs-use-your-illusion-is-turning-20

http://www.examiner.com/article/review-use-your-illusion-ii-by-guns-n-roses

Edited January 12, 2014 by wasted

[classicrawker]

I think UYI was described as bloated straight away. I dont think it is really and it was never much of complaint from fans although Slash didnt seem to like production, too many bells and whistles.

The amount of times people say they liked the demos maybe they should put out the demos wirh album. Other bands do it.

described by whom exactly? you keep saying that but offer no proof.....you claim the reviewers said this yet I could not find all these reviews youmention

where is your citation?

do you really believe UYI was never called bloated and over produced?

Slash said UYI were over produced and on the next record he wanted to get back to more AFD.

Ill have a look, but if it means that much to you Ill believe you. If Im wrong im wrong.

So youre saying it wasnt really seen as over produced?

http://www.metalsucks.net/2011/09/16/celebrate-the-20th-anniversary-of-gnrs-use-your-illusion-by-making-your-own-track-list/

http://www.theaceblackblog.com/2011/08/cd-review-use-your-illusion-i-by-guns-n.html?m=1

http://m.tgdaily.com/games-and-entertainment-features/58136-gnrs-use-your-illusion-is-turning-20

Nope I never said that in fact my original comment was you rarely hear posters on this forum bitch about the production of UYI like you do with ChiDem and you were off to the races trying to find proof by changing the discussion and trying to find reviewers complain about this in their reviews of UYI.

You are the one getting all twisted around the Axl defending ChiDem by trying to find fault with UYI............certainly there are reviewers and fans who think UYI is over produced but the majority of the the complaints are related to UYI being bloated with filler songs not the production.........

Edited January 12, 2014 by classicrawker

[Rovim]

I just see it as having 90s production. With Faith No More being pretty heavy influence.

I dont think each track is over produced but theres basically 14 different production values on it.

Its like Axl wanted to make the most over produced record ever.

That's an interesting point: Axl said musically Chinese was what he wanted it to sound like, so maybe his goal was to produce it that way. It seems like it's just a matter of taste, not quality. The production approach for Chinese is quite different then past Gn'R records.

A lot of old scool fans dislike it, but it's not like the producers of Chinese didn't know what they were doing. It was intentional. It mostly sounds great imo. Sounds like 14 million $ went into it. Everything sounds really crisp and proper.

[DieselDaisy]

Chinese Democracy sounds like excrement. The mastering is good though. It did not have any 'loudness wars' about it.

[t-p-d-a]

Would CD have made it "the best album ever" if released as a standard 10-track album? NO !

Would CD have made it "the best album ever" if released in 2001? YES !

Edited January 12, 2014 by t-p-d-a

[magisme]

Would Scraped have been the best song ever if Axl eliminated the opening a cappella? I think probably yes.

[Fin]

1. Madagascar

2. Shackler's Revenge

3. Sorry

4. There Was a Time

5. If The World

6. IRS

7. Better

8. Riad N' the Bedouins

9. Catcher In the Rye

10. Prostitute

This is how it should have been released, imo.

[username]

Would CD have made it "the best album ever" if released as a standard 10-track album? NO !

Would CD have made it "the best album ever" if released in 2001? YES !

MY POST SHOULD BE IN A HUGE FONT BECAUSE IT'S MORE IMPORTANT THAN EVERYBODY ELSE'S!!!

Seriously though, stop making yourself look like a jackass.

And for the record, it would never have been the best album ever. Not even close.

Edited March 12, 2014 by username

[SlashisGOD]

Hell no, simple as that. I'm probably one of the few who consider the Illusions to be better than AFD, so I already have my best GN'R album. And best album ever? Not a chance in hell.

And a huge "LOL" to the guy on the first page who said Maddy is better than Estranged. Made my day.

But it's quite simple really:

Ain't Life Grand>Chinese Democracy

[Fin]

it would never have been the best album ever. Not even close.

Without; Scraped, CD, SoD and This I Love, yes I think so.

[D..]

Some of you guys are so funny ahahah. Chinese Democracy is definitely one of the best rock records and one which has the best replayability value, you can hear something different everytime.

I don't think disposing of some songs would have changed anything to the mainstream audience. If anything, it needed two other strong songs, and shouldn't have kept Riad (worst song of CD era so far),

but even that wouldn't have made such a big difference in the global perception. No matter what, there would have been bashing and the same people would have complained about how Slash isn't in the band anymore.

It's not like Chinese Democracy was Contraband-quality. It was far, far better, and one of the best rock records from the 2000's, if not the best (ties with some Muse albums), and yet people didn't get it or chose to dislike it for

whatever nonsense. But had it been even better than what we got, it wouldn't have changed shit.

I'm not saying Madagascar is better than Estranged but it's as interesting artistically and Maddy is one of the low tiers from the album imo. But things like TWAT & TIL are amazing songs, fucking amazing, better than most stuff we've heard in the last 20

years rockwise. CD is on par with UYI and Appetite, and it's an amazing album. But few people can really appreciate it as of now, rock isn't as "cool" anymore, and people who enjoy rock prefer old stuff they've heard a thousand times like AC/DC. CD

was at the same time great rock et different from everything else, so it's hard for anyone to appreciate it. Could have sold better though in the 90's I think.

[username]

it would never have been the best album ever. Not even close.

Without; Scraped, CD, SoD and This I Love, yes I think so.

I'm sorry but I could name 50 albums WAY better than that without even trying.